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[Macropodmum]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I still believe (and reasons for it in the Golden City post) that the Golden City was never in the fade and that it may have been Arlathan with a magical barrier that the magisters punched through at Dumat's bidding

The only thing I could say against it is that black form in the Fade. We'll need to explain it somehow. But, probably, that thing in the Fade might not have any relation to the Golden City at all. Impossible to say at this point.

I think whykickyou summed this up when she/he thought it was just an echo, something that the spirits created to represent what once was...



I'm guessing the tranquil have their souls? spirits trapped in the fade and separated from their bodies, hence why Karl was normalised when Anders/Justice caused a temporary shift in the veil/fade.

Modifié par Macropodmum, 12 août 2011 - 12:28 .

[Rifneno]

Gespenst wrote...

A somewhat simpler explanation:

Perhaps whatever was done there was repeatable. They thought that if someone found out what had happened there someone might try again. They can't detroy the sigils without demolishing the city and even if it didn't work hundreds or thousands might get sacrificed trying to get it to work... and the veil might get torn in the process.

Kirkwall is a massive problem, but it simply can't be fixed. Not only would whoever got rid of it have to provide a new place to live for all its residents, and convince them to pack up and leave, and find some way to demolish a city (tens of hundreds of tons of gaatlok is the only way I can think of), but people would still try to repopulate the most cursed city in Thedas. Its ability to control a crucial sealane would be the flame that attracts every idiot moth who thinks it's worth it in exchange for that power.

Vg'f cerggl hahfhny gb svaq nalbar jub unf rira urneq bs ebg13 - bhgfvqr bs zngu be pelcgbybtl fghqragf V thrff...

Abg ernyyl. Orsber sbehzf jrer zbfgyl UGZY-onfrq vg jnf cerggl pbzzbayl hfrq gb uvqr fcbvyref. Hfrarg ernqref onpx va gur qnl hfhnyyl rira unq n EBG-13 qrpbqre ohvyg-va. V npghnyyl xarj n thl gung pbhyq ernq vg jvgubhg qrpbqvat. V qvqa'g xabj jurgure gb or vzcerffrq, be cvgl uvz.

Which time? It was discovered twice - once while Cadesh Thaig still stood but it wasn't written down by the shapers so it never happened.

I meant that no one in Hawke's group knows about the Cadash Thaig discovery because the Warden, Ariane, and Finn discovered it. None of which are in Hawke's group, and more importantly, Witch Hunt takes place a few years after Act I of DA2. So at the time, no one alive knows about it.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Maybe the Dwarves were like the Zunanma

Maybe they're part of that avian race that the Mass Effect writers created so they could make a bird flu joke?

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think, like the Eluvians, the Anvil of the Void is an acquired relic, from an age long lost.

It is. Caridin was lost with it 1,000 years ago.

Almost as if all spirit and motivation to do things is knocked out of those tranquil. What remains is an empty shell of a being. I wonder, could this be one way a spirit ends up permanently in the Fade, as opposed to going somewhere else (say, after death)?

So the implication being that the spirits and demons are the remnants of souls ripped out of tranquils? ... My God. That is an incredibly depressing theory.

I'm sure we'll see more of these Primeval Thaigs. Don't ask me why, but it is a strong hunch I have.

I don't know... I think it would lose some of its mystique if there were a bunch of them and the Wardens & dwarves just suck at exploring too much to have found them.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

Almost as if all spirit and motivation to do things is knocked out of those tranquil. What remains is an empty shell of a being. I wonder, could this be one way a spirit ends up permanently in the Fade, as opposed to going somewhere else (say, after death)?

So the implication being that the spirits and demons are the remnants of souls ripped out of tranquils? ... My God. That is an incredibly depressing theory.

Not just their spirits. Think about all those elven elders (dreamers, perhaps?) who could have been brutally massacred in their sleep, as their spirits roamed the Fade.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I still believe (and reasons for it in the Golden City post) that the Golden City was never in the fade and that it may have been Arlathan with a magical barrier that the magisters punched through at Dumat's bidding

The only thing I could say against it is that black form in the Fade. We'll need to explain it somehow. But, probably, that thing in the Fade might not have any relation to the Golden City at all. Impossible to say at this point.

I think whykickyou summed this up when she/he thought it was just an echo, something that the spirits created to represent what once was...

Wait. Was that the one with or without twinkies? :happy:

We would still need to explain why even demons supposedly don't go there, as if there is something even darker and more sinister (than demons!) in that black form in the Fade.

I'm guessing the tranquil have their souls? spirits trapped in the fade and separated from their bodies, hence why Karl was normalised when Anders/Justice caused a temporary shift in the veil/fade.

Again, wait. By soul you mean spirit or something else? If you meant spirit, well, the tranquil can't have them and not have them, too.

I find it difficult to explain what happened with Karl when he came back to his old self. How could some being from the Fade (a part of it even) reverse the effect of tranquility, albeit temporarily? I suppose what we saw did mean that his body and spirit were once again united somehow.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 12 août 2011 - 02:34 .

[Herr Uhl]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I'm guessing the tranquil have their souls? spirits trapped in the fade and separated from their bodies, hence why Karl was normalised when Anders/Justice caused a temporary shift in the veil/fade.

Again, wait. By soul you mean spirit or something else? If you meant spirit, well, the tranquil can't have them and not have them, too.

I find it difficult to explain what happened with Karl when he came back to his old self. How could some being from the Fade (a part of it even) reverse the effect of tranquility, albeit temporarily? I suppose what we saw did mean that his body and spirit were once again united somehow.

It might be a similar mechanism that allows Oghren, the dwarven warden and Sigrun to enter the fade. And why dwarves usually can't enter it.

Edit: As both of those things seem to have been a result of exposure to lyrium. I wonder if you could tranquilize a dwarf.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 12 août 2011 - 02:48 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The echo was somewhat separate from the Rotten Twinkie theory though they're really linked. As an echo, the Golden-Black City is fabricated from the darkness found within men's hearts. That's what is visible in the Fade. The golden aspect in this case is either legend, fluff, or a different location. But when the magisters entered the City, they portaled into that reflection of all-shadow.

The Rotten Twinkie theory was that there was one city - a Pandora's box. Golden on the outside from magical locks but vile within.

So both relate to a dark, evil fluffy center. . But they are, of course, byproducts of my mad musings.

[brain_damage]

Several things about the thaig:

1) If you look closely, you'll see that there is also normal(blue) lyrium in the thaig - and the pieces of blue lyrium are quite massive, unlike the red lyrium veins which are thin and root-like. In several places, both kinds of lyrium are growing simultaneously, the red lyrium growing over the blue one(it looks like a vine trying to suffocate a tree). The red lyrium seems to be growing out of the ground, like...reversed roots or something. Whetever's down there - the thaig was probably built above it or it started growing below the thaig after the thaig was abandoned. Maybe it's the reason for the thaig's fate?
Edit: Also, if you look closely - some of the columns in the thaig are destroyed and it seems that underneath the rock part of the column there's a pillar of red lyrium. See here and here. Perhaps the whole thaig was built over a great deposit of red lyrium on purpose?

2) The only statues down there are just before the treasure room. They're also present in the loading screen for the thaig. They look avian and appear to be in a sitting position. They also have wings or a giant cloak and on their heads they wear a sort of an elongated hat - just like the Architect - possibly a mask? The bird-like statues are placed near the entrance of the treasury room, like guardians - and smaller copies of the same statues are located in the treasury itself, between the chests and coins. See the statues: here and here. There also seems to be a bigger statue, located at the end of the treasury room - see here. Whatever it is, it's definitely not a dwarf. Too tall and with human-like proportions. Possibly elven. Lyrium seems to be growing all around it, although there's not much lyrium in the previous chamber or in the treasury itself.  The statue reminds me of something, although I can't quite put my finger on it.
Edit: Oh, my bad, there are also bird-like statues on the columns in the room where you fight the rock wraith. And the other statue - there are several of it in the same room, also several more in the distance. All of them are covered in red lyrium though. And the statues in the distance are also surrounded by a wall of blue lyrium(at least I think it's blue lyrium).

Something possibly related. In the DA wiki there is a picture of an elven statue that is said to be a representation of Fen'Harel. See the elongated arms - just like the hands of the Architect and Corypheus. Oh, and it has a funny misshapen hat too.

Hope my post made sense.

Modifié par brain_damage, 12 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@brain_damage - Those statues are telling. And they do look familiar. Without digging through the wiki or the game itself, I'll go out on a limb and say that the lines of them, at least, look similar to some of the statues and reliefs in and around the Viscount's Keep. Everything is linear, layered, and there are plenty of eagle/hawk-like details on the Keep's architecture.

The misshapen hat looks akin to the Architect a bit. Which to me always seemed to be of an ancient Egyptian fashion. The high priest headdress sort of thing.

Long shots, perhaps.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 12 août 2011 - 11:19 .

[brain_damage]

The statues from the thaig don't have much in common with the statues around the Viscount's Keep except that both kinds of statues are bird-like. The statues around the Keep are regular birds, while the thaig statues are vaguely humanoid. The statues from the Gallows are actually quite similar to the thaig statues, though. 
So, what's with the bird imagery everywhere?

[whykikyouwhy]

brain_damage wrote...

The statues from the thaig don't have much in common with the statues around the Viscount's Keep except that both kinds of statues are bird-like. The statues around the Keep are regular birds, while the thaig statues are vaguely humanoid. The statues from the Gallows are actually quite similar to the thaig statues, though. 
So, what's with the bird imagery everywhere?

Ah, so my memory was a bit askew. Thanks for the links.

As for the bird imagery, well, it could be a whole direct nod to Hawke. It could be the evolution of the dragon as a motif (as dragons became less common, other fierce winged creatures took their place in iconography). Or it could be something borrowed from the Roman Empire in the design/art direction.

Those are my guesses, at least.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think that in one of the development interviews, that they said the falcon was a family crest of the Dumars, or some such.

[TEWR]

yea the falcon is the symbol of House Dumar

[Gespenst]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the bird imagery, well, it could be a whole direct nod to Hawke. It could be the evolution of the dragon as a motif (as dragons became less common, other fierce winged creatures took their place in iconography). Or it could be something borrowed from the Roman Empire in the design/art direction.

Speaking of birds etc. what's with that thing that's painted on a lot of places around Kirkwall... it reminds me of a dragon but it's a sort of stick figure dragon... the head is like <

[whykikyouwhy]

Gespenst wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the bird imagery, well, it could be a whole direct nod to Hawke. It could be the evolution of the dragon as a motif (as dragons became less common, other fierce winged creatures took their place in iconography). Or it could be something borrowed from the Roman Empire in the design/art direction.

Speaking of birds etc. what's with that thing that's painted on a lot of places around Kirkwall... it reminds me of a dragon but it's a sort of stick figure dragon... the head is like <

There was a lot of talk about that some months back. Most people think it's a dragon.

I think it's the Kirkwall symbol stylized (and graffiti'ed) as a hawk, for Hawke. It seemed to me that the symbol became more prevalent as Hawke rose in power and station. Sort of the people's support of the refugee-turned-champion. But I could be wrong.

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The echo was somewhat separate from the Rotten Twinkie theory though they're really linked. As an echo, the Golden-Black City is fabricated from the darkness found within men's hearts. That's what is visible in the Fade. The golden aspect in this case is either legend, fluff, or a different location. But when the magisters entered the City, they portaled into that reflection of all-shadow.

The Rotten Twinkie theory was that there was one city - a Pandora's box. Golden on the outside from magical locks but vile within.

So both relate to a dark, evil fluffy center. . But they are, of course, byproducts of my mad musings.

No madder than the rest of us

[Gespenst]

^^ I don't know about that, it's on the door of the Hanged Man in act 1 when Hawke is basically a refugee turned odd-job man.

[whykikyouwhy]

A couple of old threads about the symbol:

Some stuff here

And some more stuff here

Again, I'm probably wrong. That was always my gut reaction to the symbol though. *shrug*

[BaNkRuPt 24 7]

Have to say, I love your theory. But in the same thought, I hope you're wrong.. I want more Primeval Thaigs!

[Gespenst]

So... going back a bit:

When you get to the sundermount graveyard Merrill says that "In the days of Arlathan the eldest came here to sleep..."

Why would they go there to sleep there if Arlathan was so far away?

[TEWR]

I think when she says that, she means in the time of the ancient elven empire, since the elves were known to inhabit all of Thedas.

[whykikyouwhy]

Gespenst wrote...

So... going back a bit:

When you get to the sundermount graveyard Merrill says that "In the days of Arlathan the eldest came here to sleep..."

Why would they go there to sleep there if Arlathan was so far away?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think when she says that, she means in the time of the ancient elven empire, since the elves were known to inhabit all of Thedas.

Sundermount is clearly an area of awesome and untapped power - per the wiki: "Legend says it was the site of a vicious battle where the ancient Tevinter Imperium and the Arlathan elves unleashed horrors into the waking world."

So the elders rested there, a fierce battle was waged - all sorts of energies could be trapped within the rock and the earth. Why else would it be the one place in all of Thedas where Flemeth can do her phoenix rising trick? (nevermind that Hawke was already on her way to Kirkwall)

[Neminea]

Very interesting post, and I just spend two hours reading through all the other posts that came after it so imo great job everyone with this very interesting discussion.
I need to ponder this over for a bit to see if I have anything to add to it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I'm guessing the tranquil have their souls? spirits trapped in the fade and separated from their bodies, hence why Karl was normalised when Anders/Justice caused a temporary shift in the veil/fade.

Again, wait. By soul you mean spirit or something else? If you meant spirit, well, the tranquil can't have them and not have them, too.

I find it difficult to explain what happened with Karl when he came back to his old self. How could some being from the Fade (a part of it even) reverse the effect of tranquility, albeit temporarily? I suppose what we saw did mean that his body and spirit were once again united somehow.

It might be a similar mechanism that allows Oghren, the dwarven warden and Sigrun to enter the fade. And why dwarves usually can't enter it.

The similarity I see is that a part of the Fade had entered Thedas, in the form of Justice in DA2 and the sloth demon in DAO. (I haven't played Awakening, so I don't know about Sigrun.) They are cut off from the Fade, and with a piece of the Fade the effect can be reversed or something.

Edit: As both of those things seem to have been a result of exposure to lyrium. I wonder if you could tranquilize a dwarf.

Exposure to lyrium? How?

I think a strong connection to the Fade (as with a mage or a dreamer) is a prerequisite to being made a tranquil. I mean why go to the extent of dwarves? How about normal humans with normal connection the Fade - can they be made tranquil? I somehow doubt it.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The echo was somewhat separate from the Rotten Twinkie theory though they're really linked. As an echo, the Golden-Black City is fabricated from the darkness found within men's hearts. That's what is visible in the Fade. The golden aspect in this case is either legend, fluff, or a different location. But when the magisters entered the City, they portaled into that reflection of all-shadow.

The Rotten Twinkie theory was that there was one city - a Pandora's box. Golden on the outside from magical locks but vile within.

So both relate to a dark, evil fluffy center. . But they are, of course, byproducts of my mad musings.

Nice theories.

But again I'd like to point out that the first one does not explain why demons avoid going to visit that place in the Fade. As to the second one, yes, it could have been true. I doubt the magisters would simply enter the Black City assuming that it would somehow have "lights" on the inside. The notion that the Golden City was booby-trapped might well have been the case - seeing how neither the magisters nor Dumat (or other Old Gods) didn't seem to expect it.

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The echo was somewhat separate from the Rotten Twinkie theory though they're really linked. As an echo, the Golden-Black City is fabricated from the darkness found within men's hearts. That's what is visible in the Fade. The golden aspect in this case is either legend, fluff, or a different location. But when the magisters entered the City, they portaled into that reflection of all-shadow.

The Rotten Twinkie theory was that there was one city - a Pandora's box. Golden on the outside from magical locks but vile within.

So both relate to a dark, evil fluffy center. . But they are, of course, byproducts of my mad musings.

Nice theories.

But again I'd like to point out that the first one does not explain why demons avoid going to visit that place in the Fade. As to the second one, yes, it could have been true. I doubt the magisters would simply enter the Black City assuming that it would somehow have "lights" on the inside. The notion that the Golden City was booby-trapped might well have been the case - seeing how neither the magisters nor Dumat (or other Old Gods) didn't seem to expect it.

Demons may avoid it because the recognize it as being what it is - an echo, intangible even to them. Maybe some sort of ethereal chemical reaction would occur if they tried to enter that area or access it - maybe they would be repelled, or some of their essence would be absorbed to maintain the illusion energies. I really don't know.

With regard to the Rotten Twinkie - I don't think anyone knew it was such other than those that created it, that set those magics in place. Centuries of legend and lore and propaganda spoke of a Golden City, a heaven, place of the Maker, etc and so forth. Where all power dwelled and where the Old Gods could be freed. But it was a story only. Something told to explain away the existence of this "thing" or to give some sense of hope, when all along it was the rug under which the dark things were being swept. The magisters were like everyone else - bloated on the tales that had been told, full of ambition and desires to acquire power. And hence, they portaled into the vileness because they believed that the shiny exterior carried through to the center.

But, this is all vague fluff. Theories and conjecture.