532 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gespenst wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the bird imagery, well, it could be a whole direct nod to Hawke. It could be the evolution of the dragon as a motif (as dragons became less common, other fierce winged creatures took their place in iconography). Or it could be something borrowed from the Roman Empire in the design/art direction.

Speaking of birds etc. what's with that thing that's painted on a lot of places around Kirkwall... it reminds me of a dragon but it's a sort of stick figure dragon... the head is like <

Those figures may well have been of a dragon, I think. The tevinter magisters/mages were infatuated with glyphs and symbols and such, and what we see now may have been blindly copied down the ages.

Gespenst wrote...

So... going back a bit:

When you get to the sundermount graveyard Merrill says that "In the days of Arlathan the eldest came here to sleep..."

Why would they go there to sleep there if Arlathan was so far away?

I'm not sure whether you're aware of it, but the "sleep of the elderly" in the days of Arlathan (or even before) was a reference to centuries-long slumber they sometimes went into; their bodies would be left behind, but their spirits would wander the Fade. Sometimes that sleep would be permanent, in the sense that the body would decay with time - making it like death.

I'd think such resting places would have been far away from their civilization, for isolation, piece of mind, and so on. I'd not know if it would require to be so far away, but then in DAO, isn't there a similar reference to the elderly sleeping when we find the ruins in the Bercillian Forests - farther away than even Sundermount?

So either their civilization had spread far and wide, or they simply went very far for their long sleep - and perhaps chose forests, mountains, and so on.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Demons may avoid it because the recognize it as being what it is - an echo, intangible even to them. Maybe some sort of ethereal chemical reaction would occur if they tried to enter that area or access it - maybe they would be repelled, or some of their essence would be absorbed to maintain the illusion energies. I really don't know.

Well, if the demons looked into the men's minds/hearts to fabricate the City, then perhaps you're suggesting that they didn't know what they themselves had built. I'm still somewhat unconvinced by this theory. I'd assume that some external agency must have been involved, and that this agency was something other than spirits/demons. What that could have been is anyone's guess at this point.

With regard to the Rotten Twinkie - I don't think anyone knew it was such other than those that created it, that set those magics in place. Centuries of legend and lore and propaganda spoke of a Golden City, a heaven, place of the Maker, etc and so forth. Where all power dwelled and where the Old Gods could be freed. But it was a story only. Something told to explain away the existence of this "thing" or to give some sense of hope, when all along it was the rug under which the dark things were being swept. The magisters were like everyone else - bloated on the tales that had been told, full of ambition and desires to acquire power. And hence, they portaled into the vileness because they believed that the shiny exterior carried through to the center.

Yes, this is very much possible.

I'm thinking more like like a semipermeable membrane of sorts (I don't know where I used that term before) - only someone with the right "key" could pass. Once the wrong key was used, however, it'd result in a lockdown, aka, in this case, as defilement. I "sense" this had to do something with the place the elves used to go to, but they had the right key to enter, at that time. But someone down the ages - elves, humans, who knows? - used the wrong key and it resulted in the City turning Black indefinitely.

So in a sense kind of like a booby-trap, to protect the immeasurable power within perhaps.

[Macropodmum]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Demons may avoid it because the recognize it as being what it is - an echo, intangible even to them. Maybe some sort of ethereal chemical reaction would occur if they tried to enter that area or access it - maybe they would be repelled, or some of their essence would be absorbed to maintain the illusion energies. I really don't know.

Well, if the demons looked into the men's minds/hearts to fabricate the City, then perhaps you're suggesting that they didn't know what they themselves had built. I'm still somewhat unconvinced by this theory. I'd assume that some external agency must have been involved, and that this agency was something other than spirits/demons. What that could have been is anyone's guess at this point.

With regard to the Rotten Twinkie - I don't think anyone knew it was such other than those that created it, that set those magics in place. Centuries of legend and lore and propaganda spoke of a Golden City, a heaven, place of the Maker, etc and so forth. Where all power dwelled and where the Old Gods could be freed. But it was a story only. Something told to explain away the existence of this "thing" or to give some sense of hope, when all along it was the rug under which the dark things were being swept. The magisters were like everyone else - bloated on the tales that had been told, full of ambition and desires to acquire power. And hence, they portaled into the vileness because they believed that the shiny exterior carried through to the center.

Yes, this is very much possible.

I'm thinking more like like a semipermeable membrane of sorts (I don't know where I used that term before) - only someone with the right "key" could pass. Once the wrong key was used, however, it'd result in a lockdown, aka, in this case, as defilement. I "sense" this had to do something with the place the elves used to go to, but they had the right key to enter, at that time. But someone down the ages - elves, humans, who knows? - used the wrong key and it resulted in the City turning Black indefinitely.

So in a sense kind of like a booby-trap, to protect the immeasurable power within perhaps.

Or... what if, assuming my theory on the golden city being Arlathan with a magical barrier is correct and the magisters entering become tainted, when they sunk Arlathan out of retribution for this, the impact of it being sunk caused an opposite force which blasted the magical barrier into the fade creating the black city seen there?

Modifié par Macropodmum, 15 août 2011 - 10:56 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

Or... what if, assuming my theory on the golden city being Arlathan with a magical barrier is correct and the magisters entering become tainted, when they sunk Arlathan out of retribution for this, the impact of it being sunk caused an opposite force which blasted the magical barrier into the fade creating the black city seen there?

Hmm. That makes me wonder. Do we hear anything about the Golden/Black City or anything like it in Dalish/any elven lore? Or anything about the Fade at all? If so, what is it that they say?

[Macropodmum]

Hmm...just dug this up in a google search, looks like I wasn't alone in my thoughts, nothing concrete though it is just more speculation.  It is an interesting read though

[Neminea]

They call the Fade the Beyond, the Keeper speaks about it when your about to go in for Feynriel. She says the Fade and the Beyond are the same thing, that the fade is the heart and the mortal world the strong arm (not sure if she says "of Thedas").

Thinking on that makes me wonder about a couple of pages back where someone (please don't ask me to look it up again ) if dwarves are the only truelly native inhabitants of Thedas. I think dwarves might be the only ones that aren't since they don't seem to have a connection to the "heart". Or if they are and they slowly lost their connection to it, how would that effect them?

It also makes me wonder if there is a "mind" or "soul" or other places like that anywhere. Seems rather weird to just have a heart and an arm.

[miraclemight]

What about the quanri? They don't go to the Fade when dreaming, either. Which makes me wonder... how comes elves and humans can enter it even without the use of magic, but quanri mages don't go there when they're sleep.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Neminea wrote...

They call the Fade the Beyond, the Keeper speaks about it when your about to go in for Feynriel. She says the Fade and the Beyond are the same thing, that the fade is the heart and the mortal world the strong arm (not sure if she says "of Thedas").

Thinking on that makes me wonder about a couple of pages back where someone (please don't ask me to look it up again ) if dwarves are the only truelly native inhabitants of Thedas. I think dwarves might be the only ones that aren't since they don't seem to have a connection to the "heart". Or if they are and they slowly lost their connection to it, how would that effect them?

It also makes me wonder if there is a "mind" or "soul" or other places like that anywhere. Seems rather weird to just have a heart and an arm.

This is quite interesting. Even the elves say the humans came from somewhere beyond Thedas, I had always assumed it was maybe par vollen of similar. And the elves themselves could have come from somewhere else, especially given Morrigan's hints about the Eluvian being a portal to somewhere "beyond the fade and Thedas.

Interesting speculation here.

[Herr Uhl]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Neminea wrote...

They call the Fade the Beyond, the Keeper speaks about it when your about to go in for Feynriel. She says the Fade and the Beyond are the same thing, that the fade is the heart and the mortal world the strong arm (not sure if she says "of Thedas").

Thinking on that makes me wonder about a couple of pages back where someone (please don't ask me to look it up again ) if dwarves are the only truelly native inhabitants of Thedas. I think dwarves might be the only ones that aren't since they don't seem to have a connection to the "heart". Or if they are and they slowly lost their connection to it, how would that effect them?

It also makes me wonder if there is a "mind" or "soul" or other places like that anywhere. Seems rather weird to just have a heart and an arm.

This is quite interesting. Even the elves say the humans came from somewhere beyond Thedas, I had always assumed it was maybe par vollen of similar. And the elves themselves could have come from somewhere else, especially given Morrigan's hints about the Eluvian being a portal to somewhere "beyond the fade and Thedas.

Interesting speculation here.

The elves say that the humans came from Par Vollen. Likely in a similar fashion as the Kossith have now, by boat.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Herr Uhl wrote...


The elves say that the humans came from Par Vollen. Likely in a similar fashion as the Kossith have now, by boat.

I know that. But givenm the speculation here, who knows if they were even native to Par Vollen.

Thedas is the continent itself, yet there seems likely to be lands well beyond the known world. And then there's the eluvian mystery.

[Herr Uhl]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...


The elves say that the humans came from Par Vollen. Likely in a similar fashion as the Kossith have now, by boat.

I know that. But givenm the speculation here, who knows if they were even native to Par Vollen.

Thedas is the continent itself, yet there seems likely to be lands well beyond the known world. And then there's the eluvian mystery.

Yes, for one, the continent continues beyond the Donarks, which is probably where humans come from originally. I'm guessing this as Par Vollen doesn't seem like a huge island.

Where elves come from, I don't know. And dwarves seemingly have just buggered about where they are.

[whykikyouwhy]

I wonder if there was any sort of land connection similar to the Bering Strait crossing - linking continents but long gone as oceans rose.

[Darius Vir]

Wait, do we really know that Qunari don't go to the Fade when dreaming? I don't remember this. Because while dwarves can't use magic, the Qunari can.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Who knows, though It's certainly likely. We only have map and knowledge of Thedas itself, the world beyond seems unexplored and unknown. Just as civilizations and societies existed in the New World unknown to the old world, I'd say similar things are possible on the planet/world where DA takes place. Far off lands or the remnants of lost, mysterious civilizations would be pretty interesting to see. Hell, par Vollen has a mysterious race called the Fex that lived there at one time.

The possibility of lands/Islands far away from thedas that might be uninhabited or abandoned is of interest to me, because I've been toying with various possible resolutions to the mage/templar conflict, and one scenario involves the creation of a new mage colony/homeland somewhere very far away from the known nations of Thedas, and then encouraging a mass exodus of mages to settle and build up their own society of their own making, without templars, paranoid mundanes, or the Chantry.

Of course, its a long shot, since we don't know anything beyond Thedas, but still, an idea I've toyed with.

[Herr Uhl]

Darius Vir wrote...

Wait, do we really know that Qunari don't go to the Fade when dreaming? I don't remember this. Because while dwarves can't use magic, the Qunari can.

Qunari go to the fade when they dream. Dwarves don't.

[Darius Vir]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Who knows, though It's certainly likely. We only have map and knowledge of Thedas itself, the world beyond seems unexplored and unknown. Just as civilizations and societies existed in the New World unknown to the old world, I'd say similar things are possible on the planet/world where DA takes place. Far off lands or the remnants of lost, mysterious civilizations would be pretty interesting to see. Hell, par Vollen has a mysterious race called the Fex that lived there at one time.

.

Actually, I think the Fex are still supposed to be there. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Darius Vir wrote...

Actually, I think the Fex are still supposed to be there. 

Yeah, though supposedly, have been dethroned and displaced by the Qunari, so we really know nothing of them. I'm hoping this will be remedied in the future, maybe even see what a Fex looks like, as well as what sort of creature/being they are.

[Neminea]

I always thought Thedas was the name of the planet, not just that continent for some reason.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

No, Thedas is the name for the continent, I think. Like Asia or Europe. I think Thedas (which is short for The Dragon Age Setting, if I remember right) is basically the known world that we see on our in game maps. However, if this planet follows the norms of most else, there are lands beyond the immediate knowledge of people currently living there.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

Hmm...just dug this up in a google search, looks like I wasn't alone in my thoughts, nothing concrete though it is just more speculation.  It is an interesting read though

Yes, it is. I vaguely remember reading something like it a while back, although I'm not sure if it was the same.

Couple of things caught my eye:
1. That Lights of Arlathan are actually Maker's fires (the latter from Eleni Zenovia's prophesy).
2. The elves were residing primarily in the Fade and used to make "trips" to Thedas; the trips apparently increased in frequency once humans arrived (this one is pretty wild, but rather ingenious.).

I don't know at this point what to make of those Lights of Arlathan. Eleni's statue wouldn't talk about it for some reason (I thought Finn was annoyingly interrupting any useful conversation). And we did see that these lights (along with the shards of the broken Eluvian) were useful to locate another, albeit functional Eluvian. But there is nothing to suggest that these lights were actually representative of power - they seemed more like guide posts to me. So I think it would be a stretch to associate them with the "light" that Corypheus expected to find in the Golden City, when those magisters invaded it.

But according to this, which someone helpfully posted in this thread a few pages back, the point of note is that the two events, the destruction of Arlathan and the magisters' attempt to invade the Golden City, were separated by about 600 years. I think it seems fairly unlikely that the two events were somehow linked, in the sense that they sunk Arlathan and somehow corrupted it, only to go looking for the same City some 600 years later. I think the two events are however connected in a different way - that the destruction of Arlathan made it possible for the Imperium to enslave the elves, to get a ready supply of elven slaves for whatever was planned for the future - i.e. the invasion of the Golden City. And those 600 years are the span of time when they were doing those experiments just to achieve that very objective.

Kirkwall does appear to be at the center of it all - where some fo the magisters carried out these experiments to the extremes - conveniently far away from the Mintrathous, the center of Imperial power, far away from all the watchful eyes of the rest of the power-hungry magisters.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Neminea wrote...

They call the Fade the Beyond, the Keeper speaks about it when your about to go in for Feynriel. She says the Fade and the Beyond are the same thing, that the fade is the heart and the mortal world the strong arm (not sure if she says "of Thedas").

Yes, Marethari did say that. Now that I think about it, they'd proably be seeing and experiencing the same Fade, although perhaps interpreting it in a very different way. But I saw nothing in elven lore to suggest anything about the black form that the Chantry seems to consider as the Black City.

Thinking on that makes me wonder about a couple of pages back where someone (please don't ask me to look it up again ) if dwarves are the only truelly native inhabitants of Thedas. I think dwarves might be the only ones that aren't since they don't seem to have a connection to the "heart". Or if they are and they slowly lost their connection to it, how would that effect them?

For me the key to the dwarves at this point is actually their supposed loss of connection to the Fade. Their past is maddeningly vague. We have a rough date when Arlathan was sacked, but there is nothing to even suggest when those first dwarven thaigs were founded, even according to shaperate memory. I do not know why that is, but I think it has been intentionally held back by the writers for some reason.

The other thing about them is their Stone. Supposedly this Stone lives and it has to be protected at all costs. I think this may actually shield them from the Fade somehow, but it is a very vague speculation at this point. Somehow I doubt they mean lyrium when they talk about the Stone.

And whether or not their civilization was the first one on Thedas, who knows? All I can think about is that, long ago, they ruled the depths as the elves had perhaps ruled the surface. But whatever may be the case, it is proabably dwarves who first located lyrium, and I think it is through them the rest of Thedas (elves first, perhaps) came to know about it.

What I wonder about though is how far the dwarves have tunneled. Has this tunelling gone past Thedas, underneath the sea even?

It also makes me wonder if there is a "mind" or "soul" or other places like that anywhere. Seems rather weird to just have a heart and an arm.

I don't know what to make of Marethari's references to the "heart" and "strong arm" at this point. Maybe elves have differing interpretations and/or attach different importance for those.

[Macropodmum]

I don't think the lights of Arlathan were the one Corypheus was talking about either, although enough of them lighting the city may give it a golden glow.....

With regards the timeline, it could be right but then Rif also addressed the timeline a bit further on...

Rifneno wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

If it helps, and I don't know how canon it is, but Bioware released this timeline to the zines, which pins it at the end of a 6-year siege around 981 Ancient. There's another published DAO timeline that has more detail than the Codex *ahem* wiki, but for whatever reason Google isn't returning me to it. Perhaps whatever magazine it was deleted its post.

Wow. I've never seen one of nearly that detail. If it is accurate, it shoots my theory to hell. ... Hmm. Looking closer, I think it's canon in the same regards as codex entries by characters like Brother Genitivi. Believed to be true by Thedas, but like all records, fallible on occasion. I say this because it seems to be written from the point of view of a Chantry follower rather than a writer like David Gaider. "In secret, a group of the most powerful Magisters of the Imperium opened a gate into the heavenly Golden City, seat of the Maker and birthplace of all creation."
Still, that definitely puts more doubt in my mind than anything else.

I think the major problems with timelines is that history is generally written in later and not always accurate (not saying this one is but it is possible)

[MichaelFinnegan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

This is quite interesting. Even the elves say the humans came from somewhere beyond Thedas, I had always assumed it was maybe par vollen of similar. And the elves themselves could have come from somewhere else, especially given Morrigan's hints about the Eluvian being a portal to somewhere "beyond the fade and Thedas.

Interesting speculation here.

It is possible Morrigan meant somewhere outside Thedas, quite literally. And maybe the elves didn't come from outside Thedas; they proabably had their civilization far beyond Thedas. Who knows? Much of what they were is lost to time.

Herr Uhl wrote...

The elves say that the humans came from Par Vollen. Likely in a similar fashion as the Kossith have now, by boat.

Or the dwarves had dug past Thedas and the humans used those passageways.

Yes, for one, the continent continues beyond the Donarks, which is probably where humans come from originally. I'm guessing this as Par Vollen doesn't seem like a huge island.

Where elves come from, I don't know. And dwarves seemingly have just buggered about where they are.

Come to think of it, why is Par Vollen considered an island? Maybe The Donarks are connected by land to Par Vollen.

EDIT 3: The codex entry "Geography of Thedas" confirms that Par Vollen is an island.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Who knows, though It's certainly likely. We only have map and knowledge of Thedas itself, the world beyond seems unexplored and unknown. Just as civilizations and societies existed in the New World unknown to the old world, I'd say similar things are possible on the planet/world where DA takes place. Far off lands or the remnants of lost, mysterious civilizations would be pretty interesting to see. Hell, par Vollen has a mysterious race
called the Fex that lived there at one time.

Wait. Do we even have boundaries for Thedas? Is it the Boeric Ocean and Anderfels at the north, the Korkari Wilds in the south, Orlais to the west and Amaranthine Ocean to the east? If so, do we have any official word on it?

EDIT 2: The codex entry "Geography of Thedas" talks about the boundaries. It slipped my mind earlier.

The possibility of lands/Islands far away from thedas that might be uninhabited or abandoned is of interest to me, because I've been toying with various possible resolutions to the mage/templar conflict, and one scenario involves the creation of a new mage colony/homeland somewhere very far away from the known nations of Thedas, and then encouraging a mass exodus of mages to settle and build up their own society of their own making, without templars, paranoid mundanes, or the Chantry.

I think however that the resolution to this conflict is going to involve some sort of neutralization of magic, closing of the Veil, everyone acquiring the same kind of magic, or something like that. But mages moving to some uninhabited location, interesting idea. But would they even agree to it?

But  I wonder about the qunari conflict resolution. What is going to happen with it?

Neminea wrote...

I always thought Thedas was the name of the planet, not just that continent for some reason.

Simply put, I think Thedas is the setting for the Dragon Age games, and Dragon Age itself is the time when we'll exprience the game events. This implies that there are some things outside the game world. For instance, we'll probably never get to know much of world outside Thedas. And, as far as events go, not everything will likely be cleared up. We will be limited by what can happen within a span of 100 years.

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 16 août 2011 - 02:50 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

I don't think the lights of Arlathan were the one Corypheus was talking about either, although enough of them lighting the city may give it a golden glow.....

Yes.

With regards the timeline, it could be right but then Rif also addressed the timeline a bit further on...

Rifneno wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

If it helps, and I don't know how canon it is, but Bioware released this timeline to the zines, which pins it at the end of a 6-year siege around 981 Ancient. There's another published DAO timeline that has more detail than the Codex *ahem* wiki, but for whatever reason Google isn't returning me to it. Perhaps whatever magazine it was deleted its post.

Wow. I've never seen one of nearly that detail. If it is accurate, it shoots my theory to hell. ... Hmm. Looking closer, I think it's canon in the same regards as codex entries by characters like Brother Genitivi. Believed to be true by Thedas, but like all records, fallible on occasion. I say this because it seems to be written from the point of view of a Chantry follower rather than a writer like David Gaider. "In secret, a group of the most powerful Magisters of the Imperium opened a gate into the heavenly Golden City, seat of the Maker and birthplace of all creation."
Still, that definitely puts more doubt in my mind than anything else.

I think the major problems with timelines is that history is generally written in later and not always accurate (not saying this one is but it is possible)

Although what you and Rifneno say is true, I'd like to go along with those timelines at this point, unless something in the game contradicts it. The issue is quite simply being able to ground our theories to something. As to knowing precisely what happened, I guess we'll have to wait a bit, assuming we'll ever get to know for sure.

In any case, believing these timelines opens up another string of theories, if nothing else. More speculation, more fun and all that.

[Macropodmum]

Speculation is good (well isn't as bad as swooping )...I came across a great map of Thedas from the Grey Wardens site a while ago, this is the link if you are interested

Modifié par Macropodmum, 16 août 2011 - 04:25 .