532 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

I came across a great map of Thedas from the Grey Wardens site a while ago, this is the link if you are interested

Thanks. That is what I also referred to earlier. I think it is a very well done and detailed map.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I think however that the resolution to this conflict is going to involve some sort of neutralization of magic, closing of the Veil, everyone acquiring the same kind of magic, or something like that. But mages moving to some uninhabited location, interesting idea. But would they even agree to it?

But  I wonder about the qunari conflict resolution. What is going to happen with it?

I'm pretty sure there would be a number of mages who would probably welcome the prospect, when faced with the alternatives. The Isolationist fraternity of the Circles would certainly jump on the chance, since this is pretty close to what they wish to pursue. And for many mages, it is not like they have many better options, or really anything tying them down to Thedas. Most mages have been seperated or disowned by family, and have no family tying them down. They have no property or titles, no lands or wealth. They really only have their lives. And given the deep rooted magophobia by the rest of the population, there's even less motive to stay. Given the choice between a new, far off homeland where mages will be free to form their own esoteric/arcanist society free of oppresion or rule by an unsympathetic, incompetant agencys like the Chantry as well as knee-jerk fear and hatred from most mundanes, and taking their chances living on the run and being hunted or killed on sight, I think most mages would pick door number 1.

there would still be a number of mages who would choose to stay and fight and take their chances, but if you remove most mages from the playing board, then you also remove alot of potential for casualties and mayhem on both sides, and do so in a non-violent, less life wasting way. Those that did stay and fight would be far fewer. And it would probably be considered a win for many on both sides: The mundanes get rid of the mages they fear and hate so much, the mages get the opprtunity to truly be free, and a chance to start anew a society of their own that suits their needs, where they can live on their own terms and figure out what works best for them. And most of all, mages and mundanes would be seperated so neither could really be a hassle or threat to the other.

As far as the Qunari, well, that's Thedas' problem. They'll just have to figure out how they are going to fight off the Qunari without magic. Maybe now is a good time to start sending spies and spooks to steal the technological secrets of the Qunari, or maybe individual govornments should start funding research and development for weapons to take on the threat.

Anyway, this is all a long shot at this point, as we know nothing of the world beyond Thedas yet. It's simply one of many possibilities I've toyed with, but one that I find particularly interesting in its own right. Given that the mage/templar conflict at this point seems likes its going to get bloody without any hope of acceptable resolution for decades at this point.

[ProneToGlory]

Not sure if its been said or not, but imho, I believe the Golden City is Arlathan, but you did do a very good job of researching this topic.

[Macropodmum]

ProneToGlory wrote...

Not sure if its been said or not, but imho, I believe the Golden City is Arlathan, but you did do a very good job of researching this topic.

Yes I do believe it has been mentioned once or twice ...that isn't to say that Rifneno is wrong though, it could be that when Arlathan was sunk some of what made it that deep down could have mixed in with the primeval thaig

[MichaelFinnegan]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I'm pretty sure there would be a number of mages who would probably welcome the prospect, when faced with the alternatives. The Isolationist fraternity of the Circles would certainly jump on the chance, since this is pretty close to what they wish to pursue. And for many mages, it is not like they have many better options, or really anything tying them down to Thedas. Most mages have been seperated or disowned by family, and have no family tying them down. They have no property or titles, no lands or wealth. They really only have their lives. And given the deep rooted magophobia by the rest of the population, there's even less motive to stay. Given the choice between a new, far off homeland where mages will be free to form their own esoteric/arcanist society free of oppresion or rule by an unsympathetic, incompetant agencys like the Chantry as well as knee-jerk fear and hatred from most mundanes, and taking their chances living on the run and being hunted or killed on sight, I think most mages would pick door number 1.

there would still be a number of mages who would choose to stay and fight and take their chances, but if you remove most mages from the playing board, then you also remove alot of potential for casualties and mayhem on both sides, and do so in a non-violent, less life wasting way. Those that did stay and fight would be far fewer. And it would probably be considered a win for many on both sides: The mundanes get rid of the mages they fear and hate so much, the mages get the opprtunity to truly be free, and a chance to start anew a society of their own that suits their needs, where they can live on their own terms and figure out what works best for them. And most of all, mages and mundanes would be seperated so neither could really be a hassle or threat to the other.

It is certainly an alluring idea for conflict resolution. But...

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least two major issues with why this will not likely happen:
1. Out of sight doesn't necessarily imply end of danger: The Chantry and all those who fear mages wouldn't allow mages to go settle in some isolated island precisely because they'd fear an eventual invasion; and let us be frank here, the dangers of organized mage assault this way is manifold. In a nutshell, what they'd always fear is unsupervised power - they woudn't want blood magic to be used anywhere, they wouldn't want the rise of another Imerium, and so on and so forth.
2. Offsprings. It is not such a simple thing as all mages move to some place and everyone lives happily ever after. In Thedas, mages are likely going to be born of non-mage parents; and wherever the mages move to, they'd likely have non-mage children. The issue of sepration of children from their families will hound all of them. For how long? Who knows? At this point, I don't know whether being born a mage is purely a genetic phenomenon or whether it is all that lyrium in the water as some characters in DA2 like to think about it.

And I'm sure we can find many real life examples of such separations (mostly religious) which haven't worked.

As far as the Qunari, well, that's Thedas' problem. They'll just have to figure out how they are going to fight off the Qunari without magic. Maybe now is a good time to start sending spies and spooks to steal the technological secrets of the Qunari, or maybe individual govornments should start funding research and development for weapons to take on the threat.

The qunari threat is another reason why the Chantry and some of the others wouldn't let go of mages. The qunari, even with their supposed "technological" superiority had to rely on their mages to gain some kind of a standing in battle. Mages are assets in battle, and it only takes one side to have mages to tip the balance in their favor.

Anyway, this is all a long shot at this point, as we know nothing of the world beyond Thedas yet. It's simply one of many possibilities I've toyed with, but one that I find particularly interesting in its own right. Given that the mage/templar conflict at this point seems likes its going to get bloody without any hope of acceptable resolution for decades at this point.

It is certainly an interesting thought, but one that will run into some practical hurdles I'm afraid.

[Conduit0]

So I was replaying the deeproads expedition and after fighting the Ancient Rock-Wraith I noticed something I had never really paid any attention to before. In the crypt there are small statues in with the treasure that differ from the big statues, these smaller statues, atleast in my opinion look like dragons. Which raises all kinds of interesting questions as to why ancient dwarves would be carving dragon statues.

A link to a picture of what I'm talking about:
img9.imageshack.us/img9/7711/statuesm.jpg

[whykikyouwhy]

Conduit0 wrote...

So I was replaying the deeproads expedition and after fighting the Ancient Rock-Wraith I noticed something I had never really paid any attention to before. In the crypt there are small statues in with the treasure that differ from the big statues, these smaller statues, atleast in my opinion look like dragons. Which raises all kinds of interesting questions as to why ancient dwarves would be carving dragon statues.

A link to a picture of what I'm talking about:
img9.imageshack.us/img9/7711/statuesm.jpg

Ah...this was briefly discussed on page 8 or so. Here's the quote:

brain_damage wrote...

Several things about the thaig:

1) If you look closely, you'll see that there is also normal(blue) lyrium in the thaig - and the pieces of blue lyrium are quite massive, unlike the red lyrium veins which are thin and root-like. In several places, both kinds of lyrium are growing simultaneously, the red lyrium growing over the blue one(it looks like a vine trying to suffocate a tree). The red lyrium seems to be growing out of the ground, like...reversed roots or something. Whetever's down there - the thaig was probably built above it or it started growing below the thaig after the thaig was abandoned. Maybe it's the reason for the thaig's fate?
Edit: Also, if you look closely - some of the columns in the thaig are destroyed and it seems that underneath the rock part of the column there's a pillar of red lyrium. See here and here. Perhaps the whole thaig was built over a great deposit of red lyrium on purpose?

2) The only statues down there are just before the treasure room. They're also present in the loading screen for the thaig. They look avian and appear to be in a sitting position. They also have wings or a giant cloak and on their heads they wear a sort of an elongated hat - just like the Architect - possibly a mask? The bird-like statues are placed near the entrance of the treasury room, like guardians - and smaller copies of the same statues are located in the treasury itself, between the chests and coins. See the statues: here and here. There also seems to be a bigger statue, located at the end of the treasury room - see here. Whatever it is, it's definitely not a dwarf. Too tall and with human-like proportions. Possibly elven. Lyrium seems to be growing all around it, although there's not much lyrium in the previous chamber or in the treasury itself. The statue reminds me of something, although I can't quite put my finger on it.
Edit: Oh, my bad, there are also bird-like statues on the columns in the room where you fight the rock wraith. And the other statue - there are several of it in the same room, also several more in the distance. All of them are covered in red lyrium though. And the statues in the distance are also surrounded by a wall of blue lyrium(at least I think it's blue lyrium).

Something possibly related. In the DA wiki there is a picture of an elven statue that is said to be a representation of Fen'Harel. See the elongated arms - just like the hands of the Architect and Corypheus. Oh, and it has a funny misshapen hat too.

Hope my post made sense.

Considering there is a dragon in the Deep Roads in The Calling, it wouldn't be too far off the mark for dwarves to be concerned about them. Couple that with the fact that the Old Gods-turned-Archdemons are dragon-esque in appearance, and are slumbering deep underground, the creatures were probably on the fringe of their awareness in the very least, and thus made it into their lore and decoration.

Or this points to ties between the elves and dwarves.

[Conduit0]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...

So I was replaying the deeproads expedition and after fighting the Ancient Rock-Wraith I noticed something I had never really paid any attention to before. In the crypt there are small statues in with the treasure that differ from the big statues, these smaller statues, atleast in my opinion look like dragons. Which raises all kinds of interesting questions as to why ancient dwarves would be carving dragon statues.

A link to a picture of what I'm talking about:
img9.imageshack.us/img9/7711/statuesm.jpg

Ah...this was briefly discussed on page 8 or so. Here's the quote:

Considering there is a dragon in the Deep Roads in The Calling, it wouldn't be too far off the mark for dwarves to be concerned about them. Couple that with the fact that the Old Gods-turned-Archdemons are dragon-esque in appearance, and are slumbering deep underground, the creatures were probably on the fringe of their awareness in the very least, and thus made it into their lore and decoration.

Or this points to ties between the elves and dwarves.

Ah, I missed that since I was looking for mention of dragons, they don't look avian at all to me, but what ever. Theres a pretty big difference between being aware of dragons and creating statues which are then horded inside a crypt with all the other Thaig's valuables, it suggests that those statues are of some significance. A tie to the elves doesn't really make sense because as far as we know, the elves didn't worship dragons, and besides the statues are of the same artistic style as the giant statues throughout the Thaig, which would clearly make them dwarven in origin. Given the apparent significance of the statues its atleast plausible the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig may have actually worshipped the Old Gods at some point, which would be interesting indeed.

[Macropodmum]

Conduit0 wrote...

Given the apparent significance of the statues its atleast plausible the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig may have actually worshipped the Old Gods at some point, which would be interesting indeed.

Would explain why there are no statues of the paragons about...

[whykikyouwhy]

Conduit0 wrote...

Ah, I missed that since I was looking for mention of dragons, they don't look avian at all to me, but what ever. Theres a pretty big difference between being aware of dragons and creating statues which are then horded inside a crypt with all the other Thaig's valuables, it suggests that those statues are of some significance. A tie to the elves doesn't really make sense because as far as we know, the elves didn't worship dragons, and besides the statues are of the same artistic style as the giant statues throughout the Thaig, which would clearly make them dwarven in origin. Given the apparent significance of the statues its atleast plausible the Dwarves of the Primeval Thaig may have actually worshipped the Old Gods at some point, which would be interesting indeed.

Statues don't always indicate worship though. They could be markers of some sort - warnings or portents. Or they could be funereal in purpose, marking some tomb. They may even be used to simply mark an event in history (like the statues in the Gallows).

[Rifneno]

There were dwarves living there?

[Xilizhra]

I do think the primeval thaig was of dwarven make, back when dwarves had magic. There are a few indicators of this, like Sandal's prophecy, but the biggest hint that's dropped is if Hawke jokingly suggests that Sandal could be the first dwarven mage. Bodahn replies with something like "Well, I don't know; normal mages don't do enchanting, do they? Just the ones who had their magic taken away."

[Nimrodell]

Xilizhra wrote...

I do think the primeval thaig was of dwarven make, back when dwarves had magic. There are a few indicators of this, like Sandal's prophecy, but the biggest hint that's dropped is if Hawke jokingly suggests that Sandal could be the first dwarven mage. Bodahn replies with something like "Well, I don't know; normal mages don't do enchanting, do they? Just the ones who had their magic taken away."

There's also staff Valdasine guarded by Ancient Rock Wraith - codex entry:

In the ancient days before the darkspawn, when dwarven cities wound through the roots of all the earth, House Valdasine single-handedly kept the empire supplied with lyrium.

One day the mining family shut the doors of their thaig. They spoke not to their noble patrons, nor their king, and not even a visiting Paragon. Days passed in silence before the doors to Valdasine Thaig opened. Anxious partners discovered it empty. Not one soul remained—no bodies and no sign of what had happened.

House Valdasine only left a staff of strange metal behind. It looked like lyrium and chilled one's heart like a remembered sorrow. The king sealed the staff inside the thaig, and no dwarf ever ventured there again.
—As recounted by Shaper Merta
--From Codex entry: Valdasine

Plus, in Dragon Age Origins - dalish start in the ruins, there's an odd dwarven relic that indicates strong ties between elves and dwarves, long before it gets more clear by Cadash Thaig. And ofc - there's the Ethereal Golem summoned by just one sliver from the Idol. Plus, there's Sandal and Legacy where we learn about him being supposed bastard child by Aeducan and one elf or human. Just mentioning these things if they weren't mentioned before, didn't manage to read all pages of this thread. Sometimes it feels like dwarves have the same origin as Tolkien's dwarves made by Aule or have similarity with living beings created by Hephaestus combined with Prometheus (Pandora and in Prometheus case one version of human origins myth where they were unplanned).
For me, The Primeval Thaig is just continuation of Origins dalish story or Awakening Avvars and dwarves. Plus, there's Legacy and Amgeforn... somehow dwarves of old were tied to all singificant world changing events and have to many secrets that current dwarves have forgotten.

[Xilizhra]

Wait, when do we learn about Sandal maybe being half-human? I must have missed that.

[Nimrodell]

There's a banter between Carta thugs in Vimmark Chasm... just go slowly with Hawke and every time b4 they notice you or line-up, just stop to hear 'em talking. As I recall, I heard 'em taking about it when I entered those quarters before going into prison itself (near that caged bronto), but do not take my word on it - on the spot where you can hear it... tbh, not sure when I heard it. That's the beauty of new 'wave' system, they talk and you can see them lining-up .

[Conduit0]

Rifneno wrote...

There were dwarves living there?

Do you really need to be reminded that David Gaider specificly responded to you stating that the Primeval Thaig is dwarven architecture? So yes, it was dwarves who built and lived in the Primeval Thaig, why that was ever even a question I don't understand.
Also I don't believe the name is an accident, "Primeval Thaig".


pri·me·val

adjective
of or pertaining to the first of age or ages, especially of the world: primeval forms of life.

So if anything I suspect the Primeval Thaig represents a lost period of dwarven history predating the supposed founding of the first thaig and the beginning of the memories.

Modifié par Conduit0, 21 août 2011 - 07:24 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I do think the primeval thaig was of dwarven make, back when dwarves had magic. There are a few indicators of this, like Sandal's prophecy, but the biggest hint that's dropped is if Hawke jokingly suggests that Sandal could be the first dwarven mage. Bodahn replies with something like "Well, I don't know; normal mages don't do enchanting, do they? Just the ones who had their magic taken away."

The only evidence of there ever having been dwarven mages is the Primeval Thaig.  So dwarven mages explaining it is circular logic.  Sandal... well, I'm not sure he isn't just a joke by the devs.  He's way too powerful to just be rainman.  In the Gallows alone he took down a demonic force arguably more powerful than that which overtook Kinloch Hold and sent the templar force there running like schoolgirls.  And about as many darkspawn as you can fit in Fort Draken.  He's either some kind of god, literally, or he's a running joke by the devs.  I lean towards the latter because... well... look at him.

Conduit0 wrote...

Do you really need to be reminded that David Gaider specificly responded to you stating that the Primeval Thaig is dwarven architecture? So yes, it was dwarves who built and lived in the Primeval Thaig, why that was ever even a question I don't understand.
Also I don't believe the name is an accident, "Primeval Thaig".


pri·me·val

adjective
of or pertaining to the first of age or ages, especially of the world: primeval forms of life.

So if anything I suspect the Primeval Thaig represents a lost period of dwarven history predating the supposed founding of the first thaig and the beginning of the memories.

Huh.  I never thought Selective Memory was worth 3 talent points.

[Xilizhra]

The only evidence of there ever having been dwarven mages is the Primeval Thaig. So dwarven mages explaining it is circular logic. Sandal... well, I'm not sure he isn't just a joke by the devs. He's way too powerful to just be rainman. In the Gallows alone he took down a demonic force arguably more powerful than that which overtook Kinloch Hold and sent the templar force there running like schoolgirls. And about as many darkspawn as you can fit in Fort Draken. He's either some kind of god, literally, or he's a running joke by the devs. I lean towards the latter because... well... look at him.

The trouble is that the Primeval Thaig doesn't look like anything that was ever on the surface. If it was, you'd see individual buildings with roofs and suchlike under the cavern's ceiling, but everything seems to be carved directly into the rock, matching a dwarven style. They also use the same lyrium lanterns and suchlike.

[Vicious]

Looks like ancient dragon worshippers. Possibly old gods.

It was creepy.

[T3H Fish]

 Really impressed by this theory and I think it's rather plausible, though Arlathan itself may not have been built by the elves solely. They could have been aided by the dwarves, some sort of alliance that once existed between the two races before the Magisters scattered the elves across Thedas.
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned some of this info earlier, but it just came to mind when I read a few pages of the thread.

1) During the Dalish Elf Origin, when Tamlen and the Player find the ruins, Tamlen comments that the architecture looks dwarven, yet there are elven artifacts scattered all over the place, also recalling that he's never heard of any stories of elves living underground.

2) The tainted Eluvian shows Tamlen an underground city, though whether this is in reference to the Black City, the Primeval Thaig, or some other random location within in the Deep Roads is never discovered.

3) The Werewolf Lair in the Bercillian Forest also bears striking resemblance to the ruins in the Dalish Origin and it too runs deep underground the further you go into it. There is also the elven ghost side quests and the gem with the trapped elven spirit that teaches you the Arcane Warrior specialization.

4) I don't know how accurate this is, but I remember hearing it somewhere related to DA of a quote going something like 'the dwarves dug too greedily and too far and struck elves' This is a stretch, but this could be referring to the idea that while building the Deep Roads, the Dwarves encountered the Elves and, later, worked alongside them and aided in building their cities, including Arlathan. Some of the elven cities may have even been connected to the Deep Roads, hence why the Primeval Thaig could be reached via access by the Deep Roads.

I am very intrigued, because the Primeval Thaig has a lot more going on that what's shown on the surface.

I'll go back to lurking now 

Modifié par T3H Fish, 21 août 2011 - 09:54 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

The trouble is that the Primeval Thaig doesn't look like anything that was ever on the surface. If it was, you'd see individual buildings with roofs and suchlike under the cavern's ceiling, but everything seems to be carved directly into the rock, matching a dwarven style. They also use the same lyrium lanterns and suchlike.

There are some possible explanations for it, like part of an actual thaig getting melded into it when it was magically sunk. Or them simply trying to find a way to survive down there as I'm sure they didn't all die immediately. Doesn't sound likely but there's a lot of stuff that makes a real, 100% dwarven thaig unlikely as well. I think the single most compelling part is that the Profane's scrawlings make sense if they were Arlathan survivors. There's never been an explanation for them of dwarven origin that makes sense. Not that I don't have my own doubts, especially in light of that timeline Satyricon331 posted, but I still believe Arlathan ruins is more likely than a totally alien dwarven civilization of magic users who befell a completely unknown catastrophe.

As for the dragon statues, I don't really think they're dragons. I can see how the mistake would be made as they certainly look avian in nature. There's tipped over in the vault allowing you to see its back. It's wearing a cloak, those aren't wings. I'm actually not even sure that's a beak, which is the main reason it looks avian... it may be a noseguard of a peculiar type of helmet. Either way I'm fairly confident that it's a humanoid creature wearing elaborate pauldrons and a cloak. The cloak can't really be connected to any culture because actual NPC's never have a cloak. Long technical explanation short: there's no good way to render cloaks with the current way computer video cards render objects. Same reason you'll rarely see long hair that follows even two laws of physics.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

I think Sandal probably started as a joke and continues to be a joke, but at the same time they have a serious explanation for his powers in-lore...

He's the bastard son of an Aeducan and either an elf or a human.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I think Sandal probably started as a joke and continues to be a joke, but at the same time they have a serious explanation for his powers in-lore...

He's the bastard son of an Aeducan and either an elf or a human.

He can't be dwarven nobility.  Dwarven nobility has more...  okay, I can't use that analogy if I want to have an account tomorrow, but suffice to say he's too benevolent to be one of them.  I'm operating under the theory that some heartless monster convinced Zerlinda to abandon the baby in the Deep Roads for the lulz.  

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Filament wrote...

I think Sandal probably started as a joke and continues to be a joke, but at the same time they have a serious explanation for his powers in-lore...

He's the bastard son of an Aeducan and either an elf or a human.

He's a shape-shifting salamander who likes cheese. Or maybe an Aeducan.