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[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I think possibly that them being underground is due to a shifting environment, after all how many real world ancient civilizations are sitting above ground all perfect?

Lots of them. Hell, the Parthenon would still be in damn good condition if some retarded Ottomans didn't think it'd be an awesome place to store all their explosives. Stonehenge is still standing and while we don't know exactly how old it is, 5,000 years is a reasonable estimate from scientific dating. Most of the ancient ruins underground are ones built on unstable ground. I'd say none of them are as deep as the Primeval Thaig, but we probably haven't even gotten as deep as the Primeval Thaig. I'd go into an analysis of the Deep Roads, but the entire place beats up the laws of science and stuffs it in its locker.

I should have been more specific,  I was refering to the comment regarding the ruins in the dalish origins story,  as T3h Fish thought they were dwarven made (being underground) when they were human made.  They were not that deep in the ground and quite possibly partially buried like they were due to environmental conditions. 

[jamesp81]

Conduit0 wrote...

Urzon wrote...

T3H Fish wrote...

@Conduit0

Arcane Warrior is such an awesome specialization for mages. I wish there was a detailed codex entry or even a cinematic to show what the spirit was showing to the player. If human and elves DID co-exists at some point in the past, why does everyone seem to act like it never happened? I would imagine there'd at least be some records on the human side.

It either happen so long ago that people forgot, or the Tevinter struck the city's name out of their records. They most likely covered up the city's very existence if they did that. Which would be interesting to theorize why the Imperium would do such a thing, since they obviously didn't cover up much else when they were sinking ancient elven cities.

Or at worse, its a plot hole, and we are looking to much into it. lol

Well seeing as the possibility of humans and elves cohabiting is brought atleast twice in the game, once by Tamlen in the dalish origin and again by the Spirit, I'm not so sure its a plothole. I think the history of Thedas is not as people have been lead to believe and that revelation will play a big role in a future game.

The only record of ancient dealings between humans and elves is the dalish account and we've simply taken it for granted that their account of history is accurate, mostly because of the general bias towards the big bad Tevinter. However if you look at it rationally without the bias, you begin to realize that Tevinter's agression towards the elves doesn't make sense and that there are discrepancies in their version of history.
From the way the dalish tell it, it would suggest that human and elven relations have been rocky at best right from the beginning, with humans having no patients for the slow ways of the elves, and the elves disliking the short tempered and impatient humans. Yet we know that humans first learned magic from the elves. So why is it that the elves would teach magic to such brash and ill tempered creatures as humans if they didn't get along?
Further, why was there such great hostility towards the elves? Sure the Tevinters were power hungry expansionists, but the Tevinter didn't just stop at conquering elven lands, they conquered, enslaved, and then went out of their way to wipe any remains of elven civilization off the face of Thedas. Yet theres no indication that this was there standard modus operandi when it came to conquest, and its not simply humocentrisism either, because the Tevinter had amicable relations with the dwarves right up until the collapse of the imperium.
So my guess is that humans and elves got along swimmingly for a period of time and then something major happened that not only severed ties between the two races, it also left the humans so enraged that they decided to destroy the elves completely.


*ahem*
To get back on topic, something I've thought about before, is that the Profane are rather similiar to golems. The golems are a stone or metal construct infused with the soul of a person to bring it to life. While the Profane appear to be stone possessed by the soul of a person. It makes me wonder if maybe the Profane are the horrific result of early golem research, or maybe research into immortality gone awry. Which would could possibly mean that Caridin did not infact create the technique making golems, but rather perfected forgotten research.
Which also might explain why theres only the one Primeval Thaig, because its possible that when various clans set out to establish their own Thaigs, atleast some of them stumbled across old Thaig's from the previous dwarven civilization and quietly converted them for their clan's use, or they may have even reported the discovery and it was ignored because it didn't match the established memories.

I had never thought about it, but your points about Tevinter are well taken.  They only time they ever went in for extermination was the elves.  Everyone else they wished to conquer were human, and extermination was not on the agenda.  Why exterminate the elven civilization and not rival human civilizations?  Why maintain peaceful relations with the dwarves if they were all "RAWR CONQUER ALL NONHUMANS" all the time?

You're right.  Something doesn't add up here.  Something happened between the elves and Tevinter that was so bad that Tevinter, either out of fury or fear, decided it had to destroy their entire civilization.

[Rifneno]

Macropodmum wrote...

I should have been more specific, I was refering to the comment regarding the ruins in the dalish origins story, as T3h Fish thought they were dwarven made (being underground) when they were human made. They were not that deep in the ground and quite possibly partially buried like they were due to environmental conditions.

Ahh, sorry for not checking the context. Yeah, that's a likely hypothesis for the Dalish origin ruins. I think the Brecilian Forest ruins were built the way they are because it's a crypt but the one with the Eluvian probably was buried by some natural event since it's only accessible by a cave. And apparently a recently formed one.

jamesp81 wrote...

I had never thought about it, but your points about Tevinter are well taken. They only time they ever went in for extermination was the elves. Everyone else they wished to conquer were human, and extermination was not on the agenda. Why exterminate the elven civilization and not rival human civilizations? Why maintain peaceful relations with the dwarves if they were all "RAWR CONQUER ALL NONHUMANS" all the time?

You're right. Something doesn't add up here. Something happened between the elves and Tevinter that was so bad that Tevinter, either out of fury or fear, decided it had to destroy their entire civilization.

I think fear is more likely than fury. After the time it took from the start of the war to the magisters sinking Arlathan, their fury would be sated at least enough to be pragmatic about the destruction. By sinking it they destroyed incredible amounts of knowledge and wealth. Knowledge and wealth that would have been theirs if they conquered it in the traditional way. Thus I think fear is more likely, that they were utterly terrified of something.

[Xilizhra]

I think fear is more likely than fury. After the time it took from the start of the war to the magisters sinking Arlathan, their fury would be sated at least enough to be pragmatic about the destruction. By sinking it they destroyed incredible amounts of knowledge and wealth. Knowledge and wealth that would have been theirs if they conquered it in the traditional way. Thus I think fear is more likely, that they were utterly terrified of something.

What would such a powerful empire have to fear?

[whykikyouwhy]

@Xilizhra - Maybe it was less fear than it was weeding out the competition. If we attribute the creation of the Eluvians to the elves (but the magisters made full use of them), then maybe Tevinter wanted that race vanquished so that they, and they alone, would possess that technology, for lack of a better word.

[jamesp81]

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I should have been more specific, I was refering to the comment regarding the ruins in the dalish origins story, as T3h Fish thought they were dwarven made (being underground) when they were human made. They were not that deep in the ground and quite possibly partially buried like they were due to environmental conditions.

Ahh, sorry for not checking the context. Yeah, that's a likely hypothesis for the Dalish origin ruins. I think the Brecilian Forest ruins were built the way they are because it's a crypt but the one with the Eluvian probably was buried by some natural event since it's only accessible by a cave. And apparently a recently formed one.

jamesp81 wrote...

I had never thought about it, but your points about Tevinter are well taken. They only time they ever went in for extermination was the elves. Everyone else they wished to conquer were human, and extermination was not on the agenda. Why exterminate the elven civilization and not rival human civilizations? Why maintain peaceful relations with the dwarves if they were all "RAWR CONQUER ALL NONHUMANS" all the time?

You're right. Something doesn't add up here. Something happened between the elves and Tevinter that was so bad that Tevinter, either out of fury or fear, decided it had to destroy their entire civilization.

I think fear is more likely than fury. After the time it took from the start of the war to the magisters sinking Arlathan, their fury would be sated at least enough to be pragmatic about the destruction. By sinking it they destroyed incredible amounts of knowledge and wealth. Knowledge and wealth that would have been theirs if they conquered it in the traditional way. Thus I think fear is more likely, that they were utterly terrified of something.

That also makes sense.  Arlathan was a massive repository of magical knowledge, something the Tevinters would naturally crave.  Yet they destroyed it.  Apparently the elves did something that inspired fear so incredible, that even those that craved magical knowledge the most would destroy it all.  They were trying to stop something from happening.

[jamesp81]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think fear is more likely than fury. After the time it took from the start of the war to the magisters sinking Arlathan, their fury would be sated at least enough to be pragmatic about the destruction. By sinking it they destroyed incredible amounts of knowledge and wealth. Knowledge and wealth that would have been theirs if they conquered it in the traditional way. Thus I think fear is more likely, that they were utterly terrified of something.

What would such a powerful empire have to fear?

What indeed.  If something was brewing that even they feared, it would have to be, you know, pretty damned bad.

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Xilizhra - Maybe it was less fear than it was weeding out the competition. If we attribute the creation of the Eluvians to the elves (but the magisters made full use of them), then maybe Tevinter wanted that race vanquished so that they, and they alone, would possess that technology, for lack of a better word.

The magisters never figured out how to unlock the full potential of the eluvians though.  It doesn't make sense to destroy those that do know.

[whykikyouwhy]

@jlb524 - Just speculating here, but if the Tevinter Imperium could not get the elves to bend to their will and divulge those secrets, the gut reaction might be to vanquish them rather than have those secrets diminish their own power. Might not be the most logical move, but knowledge being power, the Imperium might have preferred an all or nothing (for them) scenario.

Or, as others have said, some big bad could have been approaching. Which then begs the question of culpability. Were the elves brewing something vile, or the Imperium? (and Arlathan fell over the struggle therein)

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

What would such a powerful empire have to fear?

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Fear certainly fits better than anger though.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Xilizhra - Maybe it was less fear than it was weeding out the competition. If we attribute the creation of the Eluvians to the elves (but the magisters made full use of them), then maybe Tevinter wanted that race vanquished so that they, and they alone, would possess that technology, for lack of a better word.

That's exactly the problem: they don't possess that technology. If it was about conquoring they'd be fools to destroy Arlathan rather than just kill everyone and take the place for themselves. Err, jamesp81 puts it better in the next post. Damnit, I've got to learn to read all the replies before writing a reply.

jamesp81 wrote...

What indeed. If something was brewing that even they feared, it would have to be, you know, pretty damned bad.

Indeed. Perhaps it has something to do with the Golden/Black City. The elves supposedly spent centuries in the Fade. Or perhaps the great elven immortality had some nefarious source that wasn't quite as good for other races.

... Or maybe they did something really awful, like write the Tome of Koslun.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The question I was trying to put forth was whether this solution would work at a better cost to benefit ratio than the other option, viz. for mages to stay and fight for freedom in Thedas.


A great exodus of such nature will have significant costs. The first is their actual movement from Thedas to the assumed uninhabited lands. Many lives are likely going to be lost in this journey - not just because of hunger or lack of water, etc., but also because of other stumbling blocks, like crossing oceans, fighting off possible raiders, pirates, hostile locals of other lands they'd have to pass through. What you state as obstacles for future invation - geographical distance and isolation - will have to be overcome at the time of the initial journey itself. And that is no mean feat.[/quote]

Crossing the Atlantic to settle the wild, untamed, and unknown New World was wrought with danger, complications, difficulties, ect. Yet it did not stop the exodus of many groups in Europe who sought refuge from perseuction, who had a good idea that life on the otherside would be anything but easy. And they were giving up alot, and more often than not, brought very little with them. yet it didin't stop them. Nothing worth having comes easy.


[quote]That is quite true. But we're talking about mages who'd have to risk quite a bit to make this journey. Are we going to find a significant number of them who're likely band together and carry on? Or will most of them just stand and fight right here?[/quote]

See above. People have risked much more un known possibilities, because even the unknown possibility was better than the known certainty. Standing and fighting would not be an appealing option for alot of mages, who are going to be drawn into a conflict they had nothing to do with, and don't want to. There will be a number of mages who want to stick around and fight it out. there will be a number who don't.

[quote]Let us not forget that the Chantry at some point didn't exist. It came to be in the aftermath of Tevinter Imperium, the rise of Andraste, and so on. So would something like a Chantry not be born in the New World? Who knows? Again, though, it is unlikely that a system exactly like those of the Circles would be born. But it again depends on which direction the society in general chooses to take. And I would fear for those children born without the "gift," because right from birth they're at a disadvantage.[/quote]

Mundanes aren't automatically at a disadvantage. They have strengths and abilities that mages do not, and can do things mages can't. And yes, it is not impossible or unlikely that some sort of new religous system will develop amongst exiled mages. The difference is, it's one that will be of their own making, instead of enforced from alien/foreign elements. It will be a system


[quote]Well, you're imagining your New World to become a utopia of some sort. I'd say this is not likely to happen. Non-mages in a majority-dominated mage world are possibly going to face oppression, just like mages in a non-mage world currently are. I'd fear not imprisonment like the ones mage children endure now - I'd fear slavery of sorts, unless somehow the majority of mages turned out to be kind in nature.[/quote]

No, I'm not imagining a utopia at all. Like I said, it is unknown what sort of system or society will develop, that's completely up in the air, and up to the mages to figure out. I do not believe utopias are even possible, let alione desirable. And injustice and discrimination is a part of every single human society in existance. It's an unavoidable fact of life. A new mage nation will inevitably settle into some sort of system where there will be haves and have nots.

Like i said, the purpose of this theorhetical exercise is not creation of a perfect, utopian system. It is developed as one of several possible solutions, and my interest is in offering many mages the opportunity for a new start and choice. What they will do with that is their problem. They could create a society that is functional and built to serve and suit their needs efefctively. Or, they could end up with a complete dysfunctional, unworkable mess. However, it is their choice now. That's the most important thing in this case: choice and free will to venture out and create their own society. And with choice and free will, given that mages are mortal humans and elves, that choice extends to the ability to make epic fails as well. In Thedas, they will never truly even have the opportunity to try.

[quote]I don't know about that. I haven't read anything substantial on it in the game lore to suggest that being born a mage is actually something strongly gene-related. It would not, in the very least, explain the very first mages. It is likely that non-mage children be bread out of existence. But again seeing how ineffective that has been in controlling the birth of mages in Thedas, I'd not hold my breath. There seems to be something else at work here.[/quote]

It's pretty much near established in the lore that magic is an inheritable trait. This is gone into quite a bit of detail in DAO, both in connversations with NPCs and codexes, that magic runs in family lines. it's one of the reasons the Chantry prohibts or heavily discourages two mages from marrying and having kids, because it's almost a certainty that the kid will also be a mage. And the Chantry's policies are heavily geared towards the control of mage population and limiting their numbers. So yes, magic is very much inevitable. The "lyrium in the water" comment was more an aside/humor moment than anything.

As far as the first mages, I don't see how this effects anything. Just like human sentience/intelligence is believed to have evolved through time. magic should be no different. Useful Genetic mutation seems like an apt description of magic.


[quote]True, a society like that would have great potential - for freedom from oppression, to determine for onself all aspects of life, and so on. But would it last? It is my belief that the pendulum will swing over time, one way or the other, people will go back and doing the same mistakes all over again, especially when there is no "equality of opportunity," so to speak.[/quote]

Irellevant. As I said, the point isn't to make a Disney world for mages, it's to give them the choice in the first place. Again, what sort of society, good or bad, would be completely in the hands of the mages who went there. That's what matters to be in the end, the possibility for something more than what is available.

[quote]In any case, the emergence of Tevinter possibly started with a few mages - who started looking out for power, dominance, and so on. But what you describe about Tevinter could also happen in the New World. The pendulum could swing any which way over the ages. There is no way to know what would happen. All a New World would promise is a potential, nothing more.[/quote]

See above. The promise of potential, no matter how slim, is what drove many people to the New World with little more than the clothes on their back and a pipe dream. Even potential, however slim, was more than they would have had staying home. And if a New Tevinter ends up happening...so what? They are far enough away that this wouldn't be much of a problem for Thedas. in the near and forseeable future.

[quote]You're suggesting a war before the freedom. So let's put this into the context of what we've been discussing. A war to start things off - for mages to gain their independence from their oppressors first. Then a long march to the unknown, across great hurdles and barriers, not knowing what the future might hold. A risk of an unknown future, about unkown dangers. And having to start things off from scratch.[/quote]

yes. i don't see the problem here. As I stated, it was a small handful of mages who started the war. There's alot of mages that probably didn't want that at all, and don't want to fight, they'd rather flee. And the unknown holds potential, however slim, that is unavailable in their current situation.

[quote]In any case, let me ask you. If mages forcibly persuade the Chantry to back off, as you suggest, why can't the Chantry be forcibly persuaded to let mages have a portion of land right here in Thedas? What would make mages so benevolent to those who've suppressed their rights for ages to actually defeat them and later to move off to the unknown?[/quote]

Because it's more than just about the Chantry. The majority of people in Thedas, your average Joes, are magophobes, even without the Chantry. The Chantry does alot to foster and nurture this magophobia, but they did not create it. Even without the Chantry, there are still a number of people who would rather see all the mages dead or disappeared. It's not just the Chantry the mages fight, it is popular, deepseated and long lingering fears and prejudices that would not disappear even if the Chantry were to completely collapse or be destroyed. And then you have local and national laws, leaders, and politics to contend with. It's not just Chantry vs Mages, it's mages vs...well alot of different people. And it is unlikely that even secular govornments would grant them freedom, equality or self determination. At best, the mages can hope for some sort of improvement in the Circle systems. But they would still be changing one set of masters fopr another, and they would still have to fight, die, and lose much just to get to that stage.

[quote]Ah, a Messiah. It could be. We'll wait and see. There are prophesies in the game (of deliverance perhaps?) that could lead to something like it.[/quote]

Well, not necessarily a Messiah, but perhaps a leader and visionary. I just used the example of Moses, because it's a scenario involving the mass exodus of an enslaved, oppressed population, and how even attempts to prevent this through force and oppression failed. And even after, it wasn't sunshine and roses, the israelites still had to wander through the desert, and deal with alot of internal and external problems along the way, and some of them complained at the hardship. But the overall goal and end result went on regardless. And they did not create a utopian society in their promised Land, either. But that wasn't the point, it was to have a land of their own, a society of their own making, and the freedom to make or break themselves.

[quote]There would be harsher things along the road, if you ask me. And how "massive" are we talking about here, anyway?[/quote]

Of course there would be harsher trials along the road, many stumbling blocks and problems. As far as the size of such a migration, I can't really say for certain, because I do not know what the general mage population is of Thedas, or how many there are in relation to non-mages. Neither DAO nor DA2 even give a hint at numbers.


[quote]Just imagine Sandal or Flemeth with a staff like that. :happy:

By the way, where are their staves? Come to think of it - I've never seen either one with a staff. Forgetting Sandal's somewhat mysterious "magic" for the time being, why haven't we seen Flemeth doing anything (a mage normally would) other than shapeshifting into a dragon?[/quote]

They don't need no stinkin' staves. They just speak, and amazing, weird sh*t happens.


[quote]The question is: which path is the one of least resistance. And would mages in significant enough numbers be able to band together and embark upon such a journey? And how "significant" a number are we talking about? There may not be all that many mages in Thedas. And possibly not many in Tevinter who'd agree with this plan.[/quote]

Fleeing rather than fighting would be considered the path of least resistance for alot of mages, especially those who have no specific combat training, or who are unaligned to anty particular fashion. And the number of mages for whom this might be an option? Probably enough to make some noticable difference.

[quote]As I said these are significant hurdles - and one I personally don't think can be crossed looking at the current state of affairs. But it is an option, where none might exist. And some mages might consider such a thing. How successful they might end up being - it's anybody's guess.
[/quote]

Any Hurdle can be crossed with enough cleverness and determination. people always do the unthinkable and seemingly impossible when faced with pressure or strong motives to do so. The world we know today exists because people pushed boundaries, broke barriers, or found ways around them, and they did so often in the midst  of danger, strife, conflict, and opposition. And more often than not, with little certainty of success or reward for doing so. Yet they still did, and continue to do. Mages are humans, and humans are constantly showing us that the impossible or unlikely is more often than not, a matter of perspective.

[MichaelFinnegan]

jamesp81 wrote...

I had never thought about it, but your points about Tevinter are well taken.  They only time they ever went in for extermination was the elves.  Everyone else they wished to conquer were human, and extermination was not on the agenda.  Why exterminate the elven civilization and not rival human civilizations?  Why maintain peaceful relations with the dwarves if they were all "RAWR CONQUER ALL NONHUMANS" all the time?

You're right.  Something doesn't add up here.  Something happened between the elves and Tevinter that was so bad that Tevinter, either out of fury or fear, decided it had to destroy their entire civilization.

The "reason" could be many things. I don't think it is a simple one. Let me take some shots at this:
1. The very first humans, who later became magisters, were supposedly dreamers. So, some humans mingle with elves, and human dreamers are born. These dreamers then get "whispered" to by Old Gods, demons, whatnot, and are told to plot against the elves.
2. Maybe it was something to do with the land itself, the Arlathan. They simply wanted to take possession of it. Something like rich lyrium deposits underneath.
3. We can look to how the Dalish were driven out. Just as hostility developed between humans and the Dales, so it could have between the ancient elves and the Imperium.
4. Maybe the Imperium wanted the Arlathan elves destroyed because those elves provided refuge to other human tribes, against whom the Imperium had hostile relations. We do see some evidence of such coexistence at the Brecillian Ruins, although the timeline of when that happened is unknown. Supposedly, we saw the very last elven arcane warrior in existence at these Ruins. So, if we can dig up any references to when arcane warriors were last deployed by elves, then we know that such an event must predate the one that the spirit/warrior talks about.

And, yes. We do have such an entry. The Enasalin.
"The arcane warriors that remained at the mountain to defend their slumbering elders were known as the Enasalin’abelas, or "sorrowful victory". These elves knew they were going to die, but  were bound by duty to protect their charges. The enchanted armor that belonged to these warriors was looted by the Imperial victors, so pieces that resurface today are considered relics of great importance."

So, if that is accurate, then the elven spirit at the Brecillian Ruins came somewhere after the Imperium and Arlathan elves were at war.

5. Maybe it was something that the elves possessed (some magic, immortality) that they were unwilling to give up to the Imperium, which they tried to take possession of forcefully.

And regarding the Imperium's relationships with the dwarves, I do get the impression that perhaps it wasn't as uniformly friendly/peaceful as you're supposing. We do see some codex entries at Cadash Thaig about an ancient settlement, the Cad'halash, whose dwarven inhabitants supposedly formed an alliance with the ancient elves of Arlathan. And these dwarves, supposedly with the elves, were destroyed by the dwarves from Kal-Sharok, who didn't want to jeapordize their friendly relationship with the Imperium.

So, when we talk about humans, elves, and dwarves, there is no supposedly one kind of relationship here. There seem to be all kind of friendly/hostile relationships between different tribes, factions, regions, whatnot. And that makes me think that the reason behind these events were rather more complex than we are assuming here.

EDIT: Text formatting corrections.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 24 août 2011 - 04:17 .

[Xilizhra]

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Fear certainly fits better than anger though.

Maybe something the Old Gods warned them of that could be a threat to their power or release?

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@jlb524 - Just speculating here, but if the Tevinter Imperium could not get the elves to bend to their will and divulge those secrets, the gut reaction might be to vanquish them rather than have those secrets diminish their own power. Might not be the most logical move, but knowledge being power, the Imperium might have preferred an all or nothing (for them) scenario.

Or, as others have said, some big bad could have been approaching. Which then begs the question of culpability. Were the elves brewing something vile, or the Imperium? (and Arlathan fell over the struggle therein)

Maybe they both were treading in something bad.

Modifié par jamesp81, 24 août 2011 - 05:02 .

[jamesp81]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

I had never thought about it, but your points about Tevinter are well taken.  They only time they ever went in for extermination was the elves.  Everyone else they wished to conquer were human, and extermination was not on the agenda.  Why exterminate the elven civilization and not rival human civilizations?  Why maintain peaceful relations with the dwarves if they were all "RAWR CONQUER ALL NONHUMANS" all the time?

You're right.  Something doesn't add up here.  Something happened between the elves and Tevinter that was so bad that Tevinter, either out of fury or fear, decided it had to destroy their entire civilization.

The "reason" could be many things. I don't think it is a simple one. Let me take some shots at this:
1. The very first humans, who later became magisters, were supposedly dreamers. So, some humans mingle with elves, and human dreamers are born. These dreamers then get "whispered" to by Old Gods, demons, whatnot, and are told to plot against the elves.
2. Maybe it was something to do with the land itself, the Arlathan. They simply wanted to take possession of it. Something like rich lyrium deposits underneath.
3. We can look to how the Dalish were driven out. Just as hostility developed between humans and the Dales, so it could have between the ancient elves and the Imperium.
4. Maybe the Imperium wanted the Arlathan elves destroyed because those elves provided refuge to other human tribes, against whom the Imperium had hostile relations. We do see some evidence of such coexistence at the Brecillian Ruins, although the timeline of when that happened is unknown. Supposedly, we saw the very last elven arcane warrior in existence at these Ruins. So, if we can dig up any references to when arcane warriors were last deployed by elves, then we know that such an event must predate the one that the spirit/warrior talks about.

And, yes. We do have such an entry. The Enasalin.
"The arcane warriors that remained at the mountain to defend their slumbering elders were known as the Enasalin’abelas, or "sorrowful victory". These elves knew they were going to die, but  were bound by duty to protect their charges. The enchanted armor that belonged to these warriors was looted by the Imperial victors, so pieces that resurface today are considered relics of great importance."

So, if that is accurate, then the elven spirit at the Brecillian Ruins came somewhere after the Imperium and Arlathan elves were at war.

5. Maybe it was something that the elves possessed (some magic, immortality) that they were unwilling to give up to the Imperium, which they tried to take possession of forcefully.

And regarding the Imperium's relationships with the dwarves, I do get the impression that perhaps it wasn't as uniformly friendly/peaceful as you're supposing. We do see some codex entries at Cadash Thaig about an ancient settlement, the Cad'halash, whose dwarven inhabitants supposedly formed an alliance with the ancient elves of Arlathan. And these dwarves, supposedly with the elves, were destroyed by the dwarves from Kal-Sharok, who didn't want to jeapordize their friendly relationship with the Imperium.

So, when we talk about humans, elves, and dwarves, there is no supposedly one kind of relationship here. There seem to be all kind of friendly/hostile relationships between different tribes, factions, regions, whatnot. And that makes me think that the reason behind these events were rather more complex than we are assuming here.

EDIT: Text formatting corrections.

I'll submit number six as a way to twist the conventions of the genre

6.  The elves were playing in something nasty that threatened the entire world.  So something so bad, that the Tevinters thought that any means necessary was justified in stopping it.  And not only was it not enough to simply defeat and scatter the elves, the knowledge they'd created had to be utterly destroyed.

It would certainly make for an interesting game if, in DA3, something like this came to light.  It would complete turn in-game history on its head.

[MichaelFinnegan]

I get the impression that we're not much in disagreement. I understand what you're saying, but just for added emphasis, I'm restating my position: "The question I was trying to put forth was whether this solution would
work at a better cost to benefit ratio than the other option, viz. for
mages to stay and fight for freedom in Thedas."

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Crossing the Atlantic to settle the wild, untamed, and unknown New World was wrought with danger, complications, difficulties, ect. Yet it did not stop the exodus of many groups in Europe who sought refuge from perseuction, who had a good idea that life on the otherside would be anything but easy. And they were giving up alot, and more often than not, brought very little with them. yet it didin't stop them. Nothing worth having comes easy.[/quote]
Well, at least they had some idea where they were going. Can't say the same thing about mages in Thedas, unless you know something I don't.

[quote]
See above. People have risked much more un known possibilities, because even the unknown possibility was better than the known certainty. Standing and fighting would not be an appealing option for alot of mages, who are going to be drawn into a conflict they had nothing to do with, and don't want to. There will be a number of mages who want to stick around and fight it out. there will be a number who don't.[/quote]
I will have to somewhat disagree here. The possibility of what mages could find beyond Thedas is actually far more unknown than in the example you're trying to compare with. And the uncertainty that you speak of, if mages stay back at Thedas, well again I'm not so sure.

Ok, let's talk about more hurdles. What do mages know of about making a living, if they get to wherever they're supposed to go? Can they hunt game? Possibly, but who knows? Can they farm? Doubtful. When they get to the New World, what are they going to live by? They'll have to invent a lot of things from scratch, because some (or many?) of them have been brought up in the Circles - a very restrictive place. Unless, you're hinting at some population of apostates we've not head about...

[quote]
Mundanes aren't automatically at a disadvantage. They have strengths and abilities that mages do not, and can do things mages can't. And yes, it is not impossible or unlikely that some sort of new religous system will develop amongst exiled mages. The difference is, it's one that will be of their own making, instead of enforced from alien/foreign elements. It will be a system[/quote]
Well, mages are humans, too. In fact a mage, going by pure potential, is a mundane plus magic. There is a reason they're feared in Thedas, although people simply assume the worst I suppose.

Yes, again, the point about the religious system devloping was just to highlight where the society might head toward, and to suggest that a thing like a Chantry might very well develop. But that is besides the point, I suppose. We're talking about starters here.

[quote]
No, I'm not imagining a utopia at all.[/quote]
This was addressed at your comment: "as far as mage having non-mage children, I do not see this as a problem either." I'll agree that non-mages won't be automatically persecuted, but I'm just highlighting that a New World won't necessarily make old problem go away. Beyond that, I meant nothing else by the reference to "utopia."

[quote]
Like I said, it is unknown what sort of system or society will develop, that's completely up in the air, and up to the mages to figure out. I do not believe utopias are even possible, let alione desirable. And injustice and discrimination is a part of every single human society in existance. It's an unavoidable fact of life. A new mage nation will inevitably settle into some sort of system where there will be haves and have nots.[/quote]
Completely agreed. As to the question of desirability of utiopias, aren't utopia's generally the product of some one person's fanciful imagination? And built necessarily around that person's conceptions? So, really, I cannot imagine where people get the idea that it is somehow a universal concept, or they're talking about the same thing even. Anyway...

[quote]
Like i said, the purpose of this theorhetical exercise is not creation of a perfect, utopian system. It is developed as one of several possible solutions, and my interest is in offering many mages the opportunity for a new start and choice. What they will do with that is their problem. They could create a society that is functional and built to serve and suit their needs efefctively. Or, they could end up with a complete dysfunctional, unworkable mess. However, it is their choice now. That's the most important thing in this case: choice and free will to venture out and create their own society. And with choice and free will, given that mages are mortal humans and elves, that choice extends to the ability to make epic fails as well. In Thedas, they will never truly even have the opportunity to try.[/quote]
And my point was simply that the plight of mages is not a foregone conclusion in Thedas. For all we know, things might change, for the better. And I don't know what makes you so certain they won't have an opportunity right here in Thedas.

[quote]
It's pretty much near established in the lore that magic is an inheritable trait. This is gone into quite a bit of detail in DAO, both in connversations with NPCs and codexes, that magic runs in family lines.[/quote]
I'm sorry to say this, but I don't remember any significant references to that in DAO, at least to the extent that magic would become an inevitable trait. So, could you please pass along some references?

[quote]
it's one of the reasons the Chantry prohibts or heavily discourages two mages from marrying and having kids, because it's almost a certainty that the kid will also be a mage. And the Chantry's policies are heavily geared towards the control of mage population and limiting their numbers.[/quote]
Supposition, nothing more I'd say. Why? Because we still have mages in existence, even with centuries of Chantry's actions to cut down their numbers. I'd have to dismiss this as Chantry's dogmatic belief, unless you can provide some concrete proof to the contrary.

[quote]
So yes, magic is very much inevitable. The "lyrium in the water" comment was more an aside/humor moment than anything.[/quote]
There were two references in DA2, if I remember. The lyrium in the water, and more number of mages now in existence than there ever were. In any case, I'm not willing to accept the words of some NPCs over others as "proof" of the matter. I might be wrong, of course, but would like to be proven so.

[quote]
As far as the first mages, I don't see how this effects anything. Just like human sentience/intelligence is believed to have evolved through time. magic should be no different. Useful Genetic mutation seems like an apt description of magic.[/quote]
Genetic mutation? Evolution, you're implying? If we're to carry that logic further, are you suggesting that we'd develop magic on Earth over time? It is something to do with Thedas, or the world that all these creatures inhabit. And we don't know at this point what it is - possibly the Fade, the lyrium, species mingling with elves. Who knows?

[quote]
Irellevant. As I said, the point isn't to make a Disney world for mages,[/quote]
Your repeated references to "I don't see the problem," especially with non-mage children, made me type that out. If you were meaning that sentence in a different way, my apologies for not having interpreted it correctly the first time.

[quote]
it's to give them the choice in the first place. Again, what sort of society, good or bad, would be completely in the hands of the mages who went there. That's what matters to be in the end, the possibility for something more than what is available.[/quote]
True, a chance for a fresh start is rather alluring. The dangers while getting there (starting with not even knowing where "that place" might be) not so much.

[quote]
See above. The promise of potential, no matter how slim, is what drove many people to the New World with little more than the clothes on their back and a pipe dream. Even potential, however slim, was more than they would have had staying home. And if a New Tevinter ends up happening...so what? They are far enough away that this wouldn't be much of a problem for Thedas. in the near and forseeable future.[/quote]
I suppose all those ships helped, too. Not just "clothes on their backs." What options do mages have for getting "there," wherever "that" is?

[quote]
yes. i don't see the problem here. As I stated, it was a small handful of mages who started the war. There's alot of mages that probably didn't want that at all, and don't want to fight, they'd rather flee. And the unknown holds potential, however slim, that is unavailable in their current situation.[/quote]
So you're suggesting that once mages decide to uppity and leave the Circles, templars won't come after them, in numbers? Remember what happened to the slave led by Spartacus, who just wanted to vacate the premises? There is no reason to suppose that mages would make it past Thedas, even. In my estimate, it would be a very slim chance.

[quote]
Because it's more than just about the Chantry. The majority of people in Thedas, your average Joes, are magophobes, even without the Chantry. The Chantry does alot to foster and nurture this magophobia, but they did not create it. Even without the Chantry, there are still a number of people who would rather see all the mages dead or disappeared. It's not just the Chantry the mages fight, it is popular, deepseated and long lingering fears and prejudices that would not disappear even if the Chantry were to completely collapse or be destroyed. And then you have local and national laws, leaders, and politics to contend with. It's not just Chantry vs Mages, it's mages vs...well alot of different people. And it is unlikely that even secular govornments would grant them freedom, equality or self determination. At best, the mages can hope for some sort of improvement in the Circle systems. But they would still be changing one set of masters fopr another, and they would still have to fight, die, and lose much just to get to that stage.[/quote]
This is a very good point. I agree with it. And, in your defense, I think there are no such things as secular governments in Thedas.

In any case, the issue is actually the Chantry's holds on peoples' minds - the edifice of the religious dogma. You hit hard at it, and you change things, big time. That is what the mage revolution that Anders envisioned is all about - although I disagree with how he started it. In any case, what you said is all very true, but just as people's minds are made, they can be unmade - perceptions can change over time. It won't happen overnight, but destroying the thing that roots it in people's minds (the Chantry in this case) is the right start, as far as I'm concerned. And if mages weren't really a danger to others, don't you think they'd stay around and prove it? I see more sense in doing that than risking the unknown that you talk about. Of course, I'm guessing that mages can win the war with the Chantry and templars, but that is what I think they can do, if they stand united and fight it out.

[quote]
Well, not necessarily a Messiah, but perhaps a leader and visionary. I just used the example of Moses, because it's a scenario involving the mass exodus of an enslaved, oppressed population, and how even attempts to prevent this through force and oppression failed. And even after, it wasn't sunshine and roses, the israelites still had to wander through the desert, and deal with alot of internal and external problems along the way, and some of them complained at the hardship. But the overall goal and end result went on regardless. And they did not create a utopian society in their promised Land, either. But that wasn't the point, it was to have a land of their own, a society of their own making, and the freedom to make or break themselves.[/quote]
And we can take the Spartacus example as how wrong it could all go. Again, I recognize the possiblity of making it to a New World, but I'm not so certain they'd fare better than fighting it out in Thedas.

[quote]
Of course there would be harsher trials along the road, many stumbling blocks and problems. As far as the size of such a migration, I can't really say for certain, because I do not know what the general mage population is of Thedas, or how many there are in relation to non-mages. Neither DAO nor DA2 even give a hint at numbers.[/quote]
Okay, neither you nor I know about their numbers. So it could go either way.

[quote]
[quote]Just imagine Sandal or Flemeth with a staff like that. :happy:

By the way, where are their staves? Come to think of it - I've never seen either one with a staff. Forgetting Sandal's somewhat mysterious "magic" for the time being, why haven't we seen Flemeth doing anything (a mage normally would) other than shapeshifting into a dragon?[/quote]
They don't need no stinkin' staves. They just speak, and amazing, weird sh*t happens.[/quote]
I meant that as a serious question, though. Where are their staves? I think we're missing something. Why does a mage carry around a staff anyway?

[quote]
Fleeing rather than fighting would be considered the path of least resistance for alot of mages, especially those who have no specific combat training, or who are unaligned to anty particular fashion. And the number of mages for whom this might be an option? Probably enough to make some noticable difference.[/quote]
Again, I don't know enough to debate this, but I do consider the possibility, not your estimates of success with it. But nonetheless.

[quote]
Any Hurdle can be crossed with enough cleverness and determination. people always do the unthinkable and seemingly impossible when faced with pressure or strong motives to do so. The world we know today exists because people pushed boundaries, broke barriers, or found ways around them, and they did so often in the midst  of danger, strife, conflict, and opposition. And more often than not, with little certainty of success or reward for doing so. Yet they still did, and continue to do. Mages are humans, and humans are constantly showing us that the impossible or unlikely is more often than not, a matter of perspective.[/quote]
Yes, well, amen to all that!

But what I'm interested in mages' chances of success, not just simply diving into the unknown without properly considering what chance they might be leaving behind, right here in Thedas.

[MichaelFinnegan]

jamesp81 wrote...

I'll submit number six as a way to twist the conventions of the genre

6.  The elves were playing in something nasty that threatened the entire world.  So something so bad, that the Tevinters thought that any means necessary was justified in stopping it.  And not only was it not enough to simply defeat and scatter the elves, the knowledge they'd created had to be utterly destroyed.

Possible. Although it wouldn't explain why those elves didn't seem to have used that "knowledge" in all the six years that it took Tevinter Imperium to wipe out Arlathan.

Although I agree that people might sometimes give the benefit of the doubt to elves at times. The hint that they, along with Tevinter, unleasing horrors on top of Sundermount shows that they were probably capable of doing "just as bad as Tevinter."

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding staves - aren't they just focus/channeling tools? A way to harness, collect, amplify then direct magics? If so, Flemeth and Sandal may be able to tap into those energies on a pure vein, so to speak, so they don't need that extra booster/tool. They're linking to a true source and are able to channel through their bodies more directly.

Which then may imply that their bodies are unique vessels.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding staves - aren't they just focus/channeling tools? A way to harness, collect, amplify then direct magics? If so, Flemeth and Sandal may be able to tap into those energies on a pure vein, so to speak, so they don't need that extra booster/tool. They're linking to a true source and are able to channel through their bodies more directly.

Which then may imply that their bodies are unique vessels.

Yes, I see what you mean. It just gives an impression that magic is somehow more "natural" to them than to others, doesn't it?  I don't know if Sandal meant this partly when he said, "One day the magic will come back. All of it. Everyone will be just like they were." A more natural state of things.

[whykikyouwhy]

It's possible. Which would then correlate to the theories that the Fade may merge with the living world, making those energies tangible and part of the very air. Or some part of the psyche that is currently "cut off" is suddenly opened or awakened (that third eye concept).

[MichaelFinnegan]

There is one thing though with that. If what we assume with Sandal is true, then he is somehow already doing or is already is what is supposed to happen, with the Fade merging with the mortal world. I don't think it is completely contradictory, just that such a merging might already be taking place.

[whykikyouwhy]

Maybe he's the physical key. Hmmm - flashes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 5.

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe he's the physical key. Hmmm - flashes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 5.

Yep, maybe. I somehow think of him and Flemeth as harbingers of something(s) "greater" to come, although one could be at the "good" end of it and the other at the "bad" end.

[Rifneno]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Maybe he's the physical key. Hmmm - flashes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 5.

Yep, maybe. I somehow think of him and Flemeth as harbingers of something(s) "greater" to come, although one could be at the "good" end of it and the other at the "bad" end.

I'll laugh until I cause actual physical damage to my lungs if Sandal turns out to be the big bad.

[whykikyouwhy]

I could see Sandal being the innocent big bad. Misinterpretting something (maybe Bodahn gets threatened) and then unleashing the wrath of old magics the likes of which Thedas has never before seen. Or heaven forbid someone want to kick a Mabari in his presence.