532 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

jamesp81 wrote...
 With a high dragon you're talking about a creature that has similar mobility and firepower to a WW2 fighter aircraft.

And give the lack of any signifgant surface to air defense capabilities, a high dragon would be alot harder to take down than a bomber would. A dragon also has superior maneuverability to an aircraft, and, it seems, much tougher skin/armor than even ballista shots might annoy  it more than hurt it.

Currently the only known method of grounding a flying dragon involves a well meaning, but suicidal Grey Warden to jump on it's back and stab/rip its wings until it is forced to shake off the offender and uncerimoniously ground itself on top of an even higher point in the city...

[Darius Vir]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...



I'm beginning to wonder if the Fade is indeed the only source of magic. What if beings like dwarves are able to manipulate matter in a similar way to how others manipulate the energies of the Fade? The various schools of magic do seem to suggest such a possibility.

Well....what about Darkspawn magic?  We know they can use magic, but we also know (IIRC) that their magic source comes from the Taint itself. 

Doesn't this offer the possibility that they are drawing upon a magic power source that might not actually be from the Fade?  Especially if the Taint originates in the Black City, and (conjecture) the Black City isn't truly in the Fade.  

[whykikyouwhy]

Darius Vir wrote...

Well....what about Darkspawn magic?  We know they can use magic, but we also know (IIRC) that their magic source comes from the Taint itself. 

Doesn't this offer the possibility that they are drawing upon a magic power source that might not actually be from the Fade?  Especially if the Taint originates in the Black City, and (conjecture) the Black City isn't truly in the Fade.  

I need to do a bit of digging to find some info on the source of darkspawn magic. But, pure speculation here, what if the magic does come from the Fade, but it is immediately tainted when channeled darkspawn spellcasters? So they can touch bits and pieces of the source, the energies, but when it courses through them, it runs through some vile filter?

Off to consult a codex or two...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Darius Vir wrote...

Well....what about Darkspawn magic?  We know they can use magic, but we also know (IIRC) that their magic source comes from the Taint itself. 

Doesn't this offer the possibility that they are drawing upon a magic power source that might not actually be from the Fade?  Especially if the Taint originates in the Black City, and (conjecture) the Black City isn't truly in the Fade.  

I need to do a bit of digging to find some info on the source of darkspawn magic. But, pure speculation here, what if the magic does come from the Fade, but it is immediately tainted when channeled darkspawn spellcasters? So they can touch bits and pieces of the source, the energies, but when it courses through them, it runs through some vile filter?

Off to consult a codex or two...

No, the magic of the darkspawn is definitely from the taint, not the Fade. Avernus and a couple codexes mention this. The taint itself is a source of power. yet the taint itself is a mystery. Darius is right, the black city, which seems to be the source of the taint, is not of the fade, nor in the Fade itself. Even the spirits seem to aknowledge this by avoiding them, and Avernus said that demons are weak against, and leary of the taint.

In order to have access to the Fade, you need a soul/dream self/conciousness. Dwarves, even though they can't enter the fade normally, still have souls/subcio=oncious projections of themselves, so that they can exist in the Fade if forced there. Normal darkspawn can't.

Except....the awakened darkspawn. When the First sends the warden and co into the Blackmarsh undying, he ends up there too. Which means he has some form of dream self/conciousness that would allow him a personal/presence in the Fade.

Which now makes things incredibly interesting.

[whykikyouwhy]

I may have some things muddled, so indulge me if you will.

Magic originates in the Fade. Mages access/touch the Fade when they cast spells, but it's lyrium that is actually the "waters of the Fade" and that which enables a mage to cast certain spells, right? So is it that the mage draws his/her powers from whatever ether makes up the Fade, or is the mage reaching through the Fade to tap into the Fade-lyrium?

And from what I have read (wiki, so that may not be the best source, but it was the easiest at the moment), the darkspawn taint is akin to lyrium, or rather, carries magical properties similar to lyrium. Which would then allow the darkspawn to cast certain spells as well, but maybe by the nature of being a mage/spellcaster, they can cast elemental magics. So it may be the nature of the creature that first dictates the ability to cast, and allows some casting, and possibly some access to the Fade?

I guess what I'm trying to pin down is what is it exactly in the Fade that is the source of magic, because magic (the ability to cast) can exist without the use of lyrium (again, according to what I have read).

Also, are we sure that only awakened darkspawn have souls? Or is it just that the "awakened" ones have a level of intelligence that belies the existence of a soul? (which of course then begs the question "what is a soul.") Maybe your standard darkspawn have souls but are somehow suppressed and thus animalistic. So too, aren't the Disciples just darkspawn that the Architect experimented on? Did he somehow embue them with a soul, or did he take the standard darkspawn and manipulate them so that they could harness their soul's power?

I'm not arguing against darkspawn magic being solely from the taint, but I'm just not certain that some of it comes from a central source...somewhere and somehow. It's really Rotten Twinkie City that is the problem - because we don't know how or why it sits in its Black form in the Fade, and where it ever truly existed, we can't ascertain what role it truly plays. Maybe it's core essence is the same as the Fade, but it exists on the fringe, like an island. Same material make-up, but a different spot on the map.

And apologies for the muddling.

[Nimrodell]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

There are several aspects to a staff. One seems to come from its basic material used - red steel, veridium, and so on. And still more seem to come from enchantments done to it. I'd like to think that making staves is a magical art in itself. And doing enchantments is something that dwarves and tranquil seem capable of doing. The Spellweaver is an especially unique item because its crafting technique seems to have been lost to time. It hints that ancient elves were able to make alloys of lyrium and metals, and thus able to "enchant" swords. I'm guessing this was at a time when arcane warriors were around. Does that hint at a time when elves were able to handle lyrium safely in the same way that dwarves are able to now?

From what we've seen with Starfang and its forging - what Michael Dryden says - and of course Master Wade and forging of Vigilance and other 'magical' items (ah gonna kill every Antivan Crow on sight for stealing my beloved sword), also forging of Juggernaut Armour, I am pretty sure that many materials from the world itself combined with something that has magic with proper technique can be manipulated without endangering the crafter (tho after forging of Starfang and Vigilance, both Dryden and Wade show sings of great fatigue - actually Master Wade uses lyrium potion for crafting Golem Shell Armour). I don't know if elves were able to use pure lyrium as dwarves were and are capable of using (Kal'Hirol and Lyrium Ring that is toxic for most living creatures, for whom it was originally made?) during forging process, tho we can see that they are capable of bending wood to their will like no other race, thus making potent magical items. That's why I mentioned Juggernaut Armour 'cause it was actually infused with lyrium and Harach wasn't a tranquil mage... meaning that if human mages can manipulate lyrium in that manner to craft, I guess elven crafters or mages were able to do it too.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...


Now, going this way may also be missing the point because it is suggested that ancient elven magic (even the dalish magic that Merrill in DA2 has) doesn't necessarily come under any of the aforementioned schools. Blood magic seems different (although it might just be Fade-source vs. blood as fuel).

Avernus states clearly that blood magic stems from demons in Warden's Keep dlc and we know for sure he's not preaching Chantry propaganda. That doesn't mean it's inherently evil 'cause demons were spirits once... it may even be some corrupted form of primordial magic - magic that is actually tied for physical, material world, became bound to it after initial fall of Fade spirits that keep envying and desiring corporeal incarnation. It takes away life force but that what demons do usually in order to persist here without turning into Fade whisps.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I may have some things muddled, so indulge me if you will.

Magic originates in the Fade. Mages access/touch the Fade when they cast spells, but it's lyrium that is actually the "waters of the Fade" and that which enables a mage to cast certain spells, right? So is it that the mage draws his/her powers from whatever ether makes up the Fade, or is the mage reaching through the Fade to tap into the Fade-lyrium?

And from what I have read (wiki, so that may not be the best source, but it was the easiest at the moment), the darkspawn taint is akin to lyrium, or rather, carries magical properties similar to lyrium. Which would then allow the darkspawn to cast certain spells as well, but maybe by the nature of being a mage/spellcaster, they can cast elemental magics. So it may be the nature of the creature that first dictates the ability to cast, and allows some casting, and possibly some access to the Fade?

The Fade is a realm where thought creates tangible reality. That's what magic boils down to: thought/will/dream made into form. The physical world is set and mostly immutable, the Fade is not. The Fade is sort of liek the Jungian concept of the Collective Subconciousness that links all human minds, and is the place where thought/emotion/will have actual existance. It is due to the Fade being the stuff of dreams so to speak, that magic comes from it. The spirits in the Fade tell you that everything around them is there because they willed it/thought it into existance. Magic is the ability to think/will things, like fire and lightning, into existance. Or the ability to shape some physical reality by will alone (shapeshifter spec, for example).

I guess what I'm trying to pin down is what is it exactly in the Fade that is the source of magic, because magic (the ability to cast) can exist without the use of lyrium (again, according to what I have read).

As I mentioned above, it is because magic is an act of will/thought. Which is what the fade itself is.

Also, are we sure that only awakened darkspawn have souls? Or is it just that the "awakened" ones have a level of intelligence that belies the existence of a soul? (which of course then begs the question "what is a soul.") Maybe your standard darkspawn have souls but are somehow suppressed and thus animalistic. So too, aren't the Disciples just darkspawn that the Architect experimented on? Did he somehow embue them with a soul, or did he take the standard darkspawn and manipulate them so that they could harness their soul's power?

Riordan says that darkspawn are souless beings, which is why, when killing an archdemon's body, if anyone but a Warden does so, the AD's soul will fill the nearest empty vessel, another darkspawn. The Warden is different because of the moddified/altered nature of the taint draws the AD soul to them instead of a darkspawn.

As far as the Disciples, it's all speculation at this point. I however speculate that something about the Awakening changes them in a fundemental way, including the existances of a soul/dreamers mind. But we know so little now, we can only speculate as to what the Awakening truly is and does, and how it is achieved.

I'm not arguing against darkspawn magic being solely from the taint, but I'm just not certain that some of it comes from a central source...somewhere and somehow. It's really Rotten Twinkie City that is the problem - because we don't know how or why it sits in its Black form in the Fade, and where it ever truly existed, we can't ascertain what role it truly plays. Maybe it's core essence is the same as the Fade, but it exists on the fringe, like an island. Same material make-up, but a different spot on the map.

And apologies for the muddling.

Not muddled at all. It is a very curious and mysterious subject, because alot of unknowns remain. But as far as I can tell, the darkspawn do not draw from the Fade, the taint itself holds incredible power. I think one of the things to remember is that the darkspawn do not seem to be natural on any level. Even in the fade, demons are incredibly leary and wary of anythiong to do with the taint, and much of the lore has suggested that both taint and Black City might be completely alien to Thedas (and the fade) period. Beyond that, little else.

I think even one of the developers a while back (because this question has been asked before) stated something about the taint being the source of power for your typical, run of the mill brainless darkspawn.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Filament wrote...

Maybe the black city is a moon, in the Fade. A moon with which the Fade as we know it is tidally locked.

Tied to the real moon of course! A setup for the most epic concept ever conceived: darkspawn in space! /trollface

But it would explain why it's always the same distance away in the Fade in logical physical terms... not that the Fade has to obey physics. And sometimes it seems bigger (like in the Fade in Awakening), like the moon does.

At the rate they are going with TIM in ME3, I wouldn't be surprised if the darkspawn are piloting reaper ships or something...<_<

[Nimrodell]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I need to do a bit of digging to find some info on the source of darkspawn magic. But, pure speculation here, what if the magic does come from the Fade, but it is immediately tainted when channeled darkspawn spellcasters? So they can touch bits and pieces of the source, the energies, but when it courses through them, it runs through some vile filter?

Off to consult a codex or two...

No, the magic of the darkspawn is definitely from the taint, not the Fade. Avernus and a couple codexes mention this. The taint itself is a source of power. yet the taint itself is a mystery. Darius is right, the black city, which seems to be the source of the taint, is not of the fade, nor in the Fade itself. Even the spirits seem to aknowledge this by avoiding them, and Avernus said that demons are weak against, and leary of the taint.

In order to have access to the Fade, you need a soul/dream self/conciousness. Dwarves, even though they can't enter the fade normally, still have souls/subcio=oncious projections of themselves, so that they can exist in the Fade if forced there. Normal darkspawn can't.

Except....the awakened darkspawn. When the First sends the warden and co into the Blackmarsh undying, he ends up there too. Which means he has some form of dream self/conciousness that would allow him a personal/presence in the Fade.

Which now makes things incredibly interesting.

As we know now for certain, Coripheus is one of the first darkspawns and one of the original Tevinter Magisters that invaded the Golden City under Dumat's promises of power. Since he was a magister once, can we assume next pathway of magic that has source in the taint itself? As we know - Maker's First Children were spirits and they were not familiar with Maker's Second Children, meaning, races that live in material world - those who seeked to know them got envious and turned into demons - but their understanding of magic and how they use it is different than the one of material world magic users (and as Avernus says - taint is something unknown to them). But mortals, humans of Tevinter invaded the Golden City and corrupted it and themselves. Then we have codex entries of Amgeforn and Malvernis that state clearly how he taints everything around him... what if darkspawn emissaries actually tap magic from the taint thus actually using just the corrupted version of it through original darkspawn - corrupted Tevinter magisters. What if taint is just conduit but not the source itself?

Amgeforn the Foul

We called it Malvernis. The Pestilent One. It devoured thaigs, turning our fairest work into a noxious waste. It consumed living warriors, turning their bodies to slime, and when its hunger was not abated, it consumed the bones of our ancestors.

Foulness came from its touch, poison and filth and desecration. It threatened the Stone itself. The Shapers bound it. Chained in lyrium stained with the blood of a hundred warriors. But within the orb, it hungered, it waited.

We carried it here to the wasteland of the surface, where it can threaten nothing of value. The Stone will live. The Stone must live. We have sworn to defend it from the Foul One at any price.

As we can see, lyrium can bind them still even if supposedly (if we can trust Avernus this much that he understood)it stems from the taint solely. But what if the taint is just mere conduit for it, for corrupted version of magic that still has source in nature and Fade through original magisters or awakened darkspawn? In order to answer that, we really need to know about connection between Old Gods, Dumat's council on taking over the Golden City and elvish version of cosmogony and ontology. As I said in that long post - we need to discern the truth from different points of view that has been tossed beneath our feet.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 26 août 2011 - 06:55 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Because there is alot of speculation, even for Legacy, that it was the Magisters that corrupted the golden city. Some of Corpheyus' comments suggest that the city might have already been tainted before the magisters ever arrived. And when they entered, the taint corrupted them, and they returned and spread the taint to Thedas.

Which is basically my speculation. What exactly is the taint, and where did it come from? Even after legacy, there's still questions about where the taint itself originated. That the Magisters brought it back and spread it seems to be stated. But not the original source of their own corruption.

[Nimrodell]

Ah one thing to add before I go out - good job on naming btw - Coripheus and Malvernis - Coripheus as Tevinter mage and then Malvernis as darkspawn - the change is obvious even in naming and I liked it. Nice work there.

[whykikyouwhy]

Somewhat tangential to rotten twinkies,what if the taint is essentially the polar opposite of "good" magic? Or good ether (or whatever we want to call it). It's the negative side (or residue) and was shoved into the "city." So because it's the other half of one grand whole being "magic", it carries the same properties, or allows a mage to use it in the same fashion to some degree.

[Nimrodell]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Because there is alot of speculation, even for Legacy, that it was the Magisters that corrupted the golden city. Some of Corpheyus' comments suggest that the city might have already been tainted before the magisters ever arrived. And when they entered, the taint corrupted them, and they returned and spread the taint to Thedas.

Which is basically my speculation. What exactly is the taint, and where did it come from? Even after legacy, there's still questions about where the taint itself originated. That the Magisters brought it back and spread it seems to be stated. But not the original source of their own corruption.

Yup, I thought that too myself. Though there's a route for that one - Chantry states that Maker abandoned it as soon as the first magister set his foot in it - since Coripheus is named like he is, it could be he was the first one and saw the darkness. So, as I said - tis a puzzle made of different views on one truth. Avernus states that he often dreams about Black City and that he is drawn to it and that he thinks there's an answer in it for the taint. Bah, have to go... ok enough from me for now.

[jamesp81]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Darius Vir wrote...

Well....what about Darkspawn magic?  We know they can use magic, but we also know (IIRC) that their magic source comes from the Taint itself. 

Doesn't this offer the possibility that they are drawing upon a magic power source that might not actually be from the Fade?  Especially if the Taint originates in the Black City, and (conjecture) the Black City isn't truly in the Fade.  

I need to do a bit of digging to find some info on the source of darkspawn magic. But, pure speculation here, what if the magic does come from the Fade, but it is immediately tainted when channeled darkspawn spellcasters? So they can touch bits and pieces of the source, the energies, but when it courses through them, it runs through some vile filter?

Off to consult a codex or two...

No, the magic of the darkspawn is definitely from the taint, not the Fade. Avernus and a couple codexes mention this. The taint itself is a source of power. yet the taint itself is a mystery. Darius is right, the black city, which seems to be the source of the taint, is not of the fade, nor in the Fade itself. Even the spirits seem to aknowledge this by avoiding them, and Avernus said that demons are weak against, and leary of the taint.

In order to have access to the Fade, you need a soul/dream self/conciousness. Dwarves, even though they can't enter the fade normally, still have souls/subcio=oncious projections of themselves, so that they can exist in the Fade if forced there. Normal darkspawn can't.

Except....the awakened darkspawn. When the First sends the warden and co into the Blackmarsh undying, he ends up there too. Which means he has some form of dream self/conciousness that would allow him a personal/presence in the Fade.

Which now makes things incredibly interesting.

I know this is something of a tangent, but it's an interesting look at how various powers interact.  Darkspawn mages draw on the taint for their power.  However, Templars can still disrupt their magic the same as they would a regular mage.  So, are we certain that the darkspawn don't indirectly derive their power from the fade?  Templars rely on lyrium for some of their abilities.  Lyrium is a substance synonymous with the fade.  This all does kind of indirectly suggest a link of some kind between the fade and the taint.

This goes pretty strongly against the idea that the black city is not part of the fade, which I don't really understand anyway seeing how you can see it when you're there.

[jamesp81]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah one thing to add before I go out - good job on naming btw - Coripheus and Malvernis - Coripheus as Tevinter mage and then Malvernis as darkspawn - the change is obvious even in naming and I liked it. Nice work there.

The best part of the naming was Hawke's comment on Corypheus early in Legacy:

"With a name like that, this guy will definitely go MUHAHAHAHA at some point."

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

jamesp81 wrote...


I know this is something of a tangent, but it's an interesting look at how various powers interact.  Darkspawn mages draw on the taint for their power.  However, Templars can still disrupt their magic the same as they would a regular mage.  So, are we certain that the darkspawn don't indirectly derive their power from the fade?  Templars rely on lyrium for some of their abilities.  Lyrium is a substance synonymous with the fade.  This all does kind of indirectly suggest a link of some kind between the fade and the taint.

This goes pretty strongly against the idea that the black city is not part of the fade, which I don't really understand anyway seeing how you can see it when you're there.

Templar powers do not necessarily rely on lyrium, as Alistair points out, its more likely lyrium either amps it up,, or provides powers with no intite talent present. It is also worth noting that templar abilities mimic several spells in the spirit school of magic, and Alistair even says that the Chantry doesn't see templar abilities as magic, but that's likely a purely artifical distnction. It is likely templar powers themselves are a very limited, watered down form of very basic magic. especially given that lyrium amps or powers it more, similar to what it does for mages.

Darkspawn magic can be similar in form and manifestation, yet not similar in source, and still interact in a similar way. In fact, alot of things the darkspawn do, or are, are dark mimicries and mockeries of what other sentient races do or are. I think this could be applied to magic.

EDIT: Forgot to add, the Black city not being part of the fade makes most sense to me, when you remember the Fade is nothing like the real world. Just because something is "there" doesn't necessarily really mean it's "there". Anymore than a mage who has entered the fade is really, physically there. The Fade goes by a completely different set of rules than the real world, and is a realm that doesn't have permence or stable context the same way the real world is. It is the fixed, alien nature of the black city (such as it being unreachable and equidistant from anywhere and everywhere in the Fade) alone makes me think it is not part of "The Fade£ proper, but something else entirely.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 26 août 2011 - 08:13 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Filament wrote...

It may be useful to note here that darkspawn spume (deep roads) and demonic spume (the Circle tower) are very similar.

Not really, from a lore standpoint. I think what you are refering to is a design thing, because in the lore, darkspawn and demons are very much to findementally different entities. Avernus even says that darkspawn taint is alien and effective against demons (they hold some sort of innate weakness towards it). That darkspawn drop "demonic ichor" is more a case of randomized loot, seeing how anything and everything can drop the stuff, including uncorupted animals.

[TEWR]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Filament wrote...

It may be useful to note here that darkspawn spume (deep roads) and demonic spume (the Circle tower) are very similar.

Not really, from a lore standpoint. I think what you are refering to is a design thing, because in the lore, darkspawn and demons are very much to findementally different entities. Avernus even says that darkspawn taint is alien and effective against demons (they hold some sort of innate weakness towards it). That darkspawn drop "demonic ichor" is more a case of randomized loot, seeing how anything and everything can drop the stuff, including uncorupted animals.

Morrigan herself says that the corruption in the Circle Tower was similar to the Darkspawn's.

[Darius Vir]

Yeah.  The Morrigan comment is kind of maddening, because from what I remember , that's the ONLY thing that we have to give an indication that there is a demonic connection with the darkspawn.  She could be just....wrong, I guess, but the game seems to paint her as this very intheknow, meta-informed individual. 

Everything else seems to indicate that the Taint and the demons are of two different natures.  Avernus's comments being the main thing, to me. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 26 août 2011 - 08:44 .

[TEWR]

Darius Vir wrote...

Yeah.  The Morrigan comment is kind of maddening, because from what I remember , that's the ONLY thing that we have to give an indication that there is a demonic connection with the darkspawn.  She could be just....wrong, I guess, but the game seems to paint her as this very intheknow, meta-informed individual. 

Everything else seems to indicate that the Taint and the demons are of two different natures.  Avernus's comments being the main thing, to me. 

Demons may not know about the taint, but they're not all-knowing creatures themselves. The spirits have no clue if the Maker exists.

There could still be a connection between the Fade denizens and the Darkspawn (considering you go to an area in the Fade populated by Darkspawn), but the demons just don't know anything about the taint since it stems from the Black City. And they don't go to the Black City, so they wouldn't know about it.

[TEWR]

Filament wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Somewhat tangential to rotten twinkies,what if the taint is essentially the polar opposite of "good" magic? Or good ether (or whatever we want to call it). It's the negative side (or residue) and was shoved into the "city." So because it's the other half of one grand whole being "magic", it carries the same properties, or allows a mage to use it in the same fashion to some degree.

To go off on a tangent from your tangent: maybe the Forgotten Ones were jealous of this Fade thing and tried to create their own version of it. Not necessarily a polar opposite from the same creation, but an imperfect copy from a later creation. The Chant does say that the souls in people are literally pieces of the Fade. These sustain the body, in a way, in mortals. The taint sustains the body as well, but in a twisted, less mortal way. Maybe the Forgotten Ones in their hubris sought to improve on the Fade's design, but their experiment didn't go as planned.

Note that I didn't mention or imply the existence of the Maker here. Just the Fade, as it exists.

Or maybe it's not the Forgotten Ones... maybe it's the Elven gods (the.. not forgotten ones). Or just the elves. They created their own Fade that worked swimmingly and gave elves magic and immortality for a while... but it eventually got messed up.

So it was both the elves' and the Tevinters' hubris which brought darkspawn into the world.

I wonder if maybe each race caused each Darkspawn to appear. Humans caused Hurlocks, Dwarves caused Genlocks, etc.

Note: I don't mean the Magisters caused the Hurlocks. I still maintain that they are the first Awakened Darkspawn and not the first actual Darkspawn. Perhaps humans did something else.