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[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Somewhat tangential to rotten twinkies,what if the taint is essentially the polar opposite of "good" magic? Or good ether (or whatever we want to call it). It's the negative side (or residue) and was shoved into the "city." So because it's the other half of one grand whole being "magic", it carries the same properties, or allows a mage to use it in the same fashion to some degree.

To go off on a tangent from your tangent: maybe the Forgotten Ones were jealous of this Fade thing and tried to create their own version of it. Not necessarily a polar opposite from the same creation, but an imperfect copy from a later creation. The Chant does say that the souls in people are literally pieces of the Fade. These sustain the body, in a way, in mortals. The taint sustains the body as well, but in a twisted, less mortal way. Maybe the Forgotten Ones in their hubris sought to improve on the Fade's design, but their experiment didn't go as planned.

Note that I didn't mention or imply the existence of the Maker here. Just the Fade, as it exists.

Or maybe it's not the Forgotten Ones... maybe it's the Elven gods (the.. not forgotten ones). Or just the elves. They created their own Fade that worked swimmingly and gave elves magic and immortality for a while... but it eventually got messed up.

So it was both the elves' and the Tevinters' hubris which brought darkspawn into the world.

Allow me to triangulate the vector here...with more questions.

Where did/do the Forgotten Ones or Elven gods reside? Where are they within their full power? Are they part of the Fade, or do they reside outside of it?

There has to be some realm that they work and send their coaxing whispers of hubris from. If not the Fade, then where? Rotten Twinkie City? Or some other city, built on rock-n-roll?

[mesmerizedish]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Allow me to triangulate the vector here...with more questions.

Where did/do the Forgotten Ones or Elven gods reside? Where are they within their full power? Are they part of the Fade, or do they reside outside of it?

There has to be some realm that they work and send their coaxing whispers of hubris from. If not the Fade, then where? Rotten Twinkie City? Or some other city, built on rock-n-roll?

I thought they were from the Divine Pinata.

[whykikyouwhy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Allow me to triangulate the vector here...with more questions.

Where did/do the Forgotten Ones or Elven gods reside? Where are they within their full power? Are they part of the Fade, or do they reside outside of it?

There has to be some realm that they work and send their coaxing whispers of hubris from. If not the Fade, then where? Rotten Twinkie City? Or some other city, built on rock-n-roll?

I thought they were from the Divine Pinata.

Ah, yes...they are now. But before they were stuffed like so much candy into the Divine Piñata, they had to dwell somewhere. And I am not confident that there was some Celestial Sweet Shop where they were just hanging out shooting the bull.

(they could have been at the fromagerie )

I'm curious as to where their base of operations was when they were making with the taint-Fade craft. I suspect it was after they were done with the Legos, that they got tucked into the piñata...and dangled up over the people of Thedas as the Maker.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Darius Vir wrote...

Yeah.  The Morrigan comment is kind of maddening, because from what I remember , that's the ONLY thing that we have to give an indication that there is a demonic connection with the darkspawn.  She could be just....wrong, I guess, but the game seems to paint her as this very intheknow, meta-informed individual. 

Everything else seems to indicate that the Taint and the demons are of two different natures.  Avernus's comments being the main thing, to me. 

Yes. And given that Avernus is pretty much an expert in the matter, being both a Grey Warden and a blood mage who deals with alot of demons, I'd say he understands both sides better than anyone else in Thedas, seeing how's spent centuries researching both, side by side. And his comments lead me to believe that the Black City and Taint are somehow alien things that are not natural or indingeneous to Thedas or even the Fade.

Morrigan's comment seems more like an observation, perhaps of the destructiveness and mess the demons make. But I really did not see it as an indication of actual, tangible relationship. Morrigan herself is a very experienced mage on many fronts, but not necessarily this one. I go with Avernus on this one, until something else emerges from a reliable source that counteracts it.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out the disturbing implications of the letter Hawke finds.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Allow me to triangulate the vector here...with more questions.

Where did/do the Forgotten Ones or Elven gods reside? Where are they within their full power? Are they part of the Fade, or do they reside outside of it?

There has to be some realm that they work and send their coaxing whispers of hubris from. If not the Fade, then where? Rotten Twinkie City? Or some other city, built on rock-n-roll?

If it was created by Gods... maybe that was just their realm, or dream realm, to begin with. In the Fade but separate from it like my moon analogy, maybe. They willed it into being, and it wasn't really a matter of hubris at all, simply the nature of their existence. Maybe elves drew on that realm for power but.. got greedy.. and corrupted it. Maybe it wasn't always separate and inaccessible from the Fade, but the event which caused the gods to abandon the elves made it so.

If it was created by the elves themselves, then I imagine it's similar in terms of its nature (dreamworld of Arlathan), but the reason for its blackening and remoteness could be a bit different.

Well now we're getting all metaphysical (and no longer algebraic). So..."in the beginning was...a dream? a chill wind? floating flan?"

I still can't shake the polarization of the essence though. The light and dark, the matter of creation and the antimatter residue, the golden cake and rotten center. And looking at it that way, the yin-yang of it, it makes sense (to me) for the darkspawn to be funneling Fade-spores, but from the flipside of the known Fade.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Well now we're getting all metaphysical (and no longer algebraic). So..."in the beginning was...a dream? a chill wind? floating flan?"

I still can't shake the polarization of the essence though. The light and dark, the matter of creation and the antimatter residue, the golden cake and rotten center. And looking at it that way, the yin-yang of it, it makes sense (to me) for the darkspawn to be funneling Fade-spores, but from the flipside of the known Fade.

Believe it or not, this is a theory I have entertained alot:the taint being some sort of "spiritual antimatter" and there being s shadow, anti-matter mirror version of the fade that is completely in opposition to the normal fade, a reverse/inverse reflection so to speak.

And maybe born of a different dimension/universal reality, hence my theory that the black city is somehow not a natural part of the Fade, or even in the Fade itself, despite being visible.

[Darius Vir]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Darius Vir wrote...

Yeah.  The Morrigan comment is kind of maddening, because from what I remember , that's the ONLY thing that we have to give an indication that there is a demonic connection with the darkspawn.  She could be just....wrong, I guess, but the game seems to paint her as this very intheknow, meta-informed individual. 

Everything else seems to indicate that the Taint and the demons are of two different natures.  Avernus's comments being the main thing, to me. 

Yes. And given that Avernus is pretty much an expert in the matter, being both a Grey Warden and a blood mage who deals with alot of demons, I'd say he understands both sides better than anyone else in Thedas, seeing how's spent centuries researching both, side by side. And his comments lead me to believe that the Black City and Taint are somehow alien things that are not natural or indingeneous to Thedas or even the Fade.

Morrigan's comment seems more like an observation, perhaps of the destructiveness and mess the demons make. But I really did not see it as an indication of actual, tangible relationship. Morrigan herself is a very experienced mage on many fronts, but not necessarily this one. I go with Avernus on this one, until something else emerges from a reliable source that counteracts it.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out the disturbing implications of the letter Hawke finds.

Oh, I agree.  Avernus's experiences are so important, imo, because they are empirical.  The guy has been messing with this stuff, as you mention, for centuries.  

However it was that he found out  and can actually tell this, he did....he doesn't hear the call of the Old Gods, he hears the call of the Black City.  The Taint is something that has its core within the Black City. 

The Taint is way more bizarre than I realized on my initial playthroughs- then I just sort of equated Taint/Darkspawn and didn't think anything more of it..  But, the Taint can reside in and affect Grey Wardens, the Archdemons, and ghouls.  It also apparently gives a quasi-immortality, serves as a nourishment source, and as a powerful magic source.  Freakish. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 26 août 2011 - 10:11 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

Well....what about Darkspawn magic?  We know they can use magic, but we also know (IIRC) that their magic source comes from the Taint itself. 

Doesn't this offer the possibility that they are drawing upon a magic power source that might not actually be from the Fade?  Especially if the Taint originates in the Black City, and (conjecture) the Black City isn't truly in the Fade.

Yes, that's a good point. I forgot about darkspawn magic.

The issue though is we know so very little about what the taint really is, where it comes from, etc. We know its effects, though. That it sustains darkspawn (whether indefinitely or not). And supposedly, as you say, gives them their magic - but this part I'm not so certain about. Did some BioWare writer say anything about it?

The taint sustaining darkspawn, that we know about. And every darkspawn uses that. But not every darkspawn does magic. So why is it that only a few can harness the magical power within the taint while a great many can't? One could begin by explaining that it perhaps depends on the type of broodmothers created; so if the female broodmother was a mage herself, that might explain her creations. But we run into issues with genlocks, because dwarves don't do magic, so broodmothers shouldn't have that property, either.

We'll have to contend with such issues trying to explain the connection between the taint and magic.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

From what we've seen with Starfang and its forging - what Michael Dryden says - and of course Master Wade and forging of Vigilance and other 'magical' items (ah gonna kill every Antivan Crow on sight for stealing my beloved sword), also forging of Juggernaut Armour, I am pretty sure that many materials from the world itself combined with something that has magic with proper technique can be manipulated without endangering the crafter (tho after forging of Starfang and Vigilance, both Dryden and Wade show sings of great fatigue - actually Master Wade uses lyrium potion for crafting Golem Shell Armour). I don't know if elves were able to use pure lyrium as dwarves were and are capable of using (Kal'Hirol and Lyrium Ring that is toxic for most living creatures, for whom it was originally made?) during forging process, tho we can see that they are capable of bending wood to their will like no other race, thus making potent magical items. That's why I mentioned Juggernaut Armour 'cause it was actually infused with lyrium and Harach wasn't a tranquil mage... meaning that if human mages can manipulate lyrium in that manner to craft, I guess elven crafters or mages were able to do it too.

Ah, good finds. And 3 different examples! I didn't know about some of them because I haven't played DA:A.

Perhaps I read the description of Spellweaver wrong, then. Because it is a sword that is supposed to function lilke a staff in focusing a mage's powers (the +magic attribute), which is perhaps what it is referring to as a lost elven technique of allyoing metals and lyrium. The lyrium used in itelf may not be significant because I don't think it required that raw, unprocessed variety.

So there appear to be different types of enchantments, or giving weapons/armor magical abilities:
1. One where runes are enchanted into weapons/armor (perhaps restricted to dwarves and tranquil?)
2. Where skilled mages/smiths can use lyrium and/or blood magic to magically enchance a weapon/armor

I dug up some interesting things about the characters you mentioned. Apparently Mikhael Dryden learnt his craft from dwarven smiths also. And supposedly in Darkspawn Chronicles Harren transforms into a desire demon and teleports himself and Wade to somewhere, if the PC tries to attack them. Not your everyday run of the mill characters, for sure. The point though is that Mikhael, Wade, Magister Harach - these may be exceptional individuals, with rare talents.

Avernus states clearly that blood magic stems from demons in Warden's Keep dlc and we know for sure he's not preaching Chantry propaganda. That doesn't mean it's inherently evil 'cause demons were spirits once... it may even be some corrupted form of primordial magic - magic that is actually tied for physical, material world, became bound to it after initial fall of Fade spirits that keep envying and desiring corporeal incarnation. It takes away life force but that what demons do usually in order to persist here without turning into Fade whisps.

There is one way to view blood magic. That a mage sacrifices a little bit of life force (blood) to the demon and gets demon-power, which is also of the Fade, aka blood magic in return. It could be thought of like a short-cut to normal magic. This is not necessarily evil, I suppose, but the assumption is the mage will eventually ask for more power, and hence resort to taking blood of others, or fall prey to the demon eventually. And what is being portrayed in the games, in general, is that this tendency among blood mages is very common.

The corruption aspect of it goes a bit deeper, I'd guess, than just blood magic. It is perhaps some amalgamation of different types of magic that has resulted in great devastation, when perhaps the desire for power was so great than some were willing to do almost anything. I think in the end this is one explanation we might get for the corruption that is the taint.

[Nimrodell]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Believe it or not, this is a theory I have entertained alot:the taint being some sort of "spiritual antimatter" and there being s shadow, anti-matter mirror version of the fade that is completely in opposition to the normal fade, a reverse/inverse reflection so to speak.

And maybe born of a different dimension/universal reality, hence my theory that the black city is somehow not a natural part of the Fade, or even in the Fade itself, despite being visible.

This theory could work if we had DA world set up like in Zoroastrism (Ahura Mazda-Angra Mainyu) and elvish pantheon pretty much behaves that way if we use free and broad interpretation and mix it a bit with Nordic mythology (dualistic nature of their gods set up) or if the Maker himself would actually have his opposite like in Manichaeism. Even Tolkien's cosmogony (Eru vs Melkor - Arda Perfect/Arda Marred) pattern would be actually good for comparison if we had confirmation that the taint, corruption weren't just simply caused by mortals - it has to be a conflict on larger scale between higher forces, even primordial ones - like in elven story. But in elven story lies problem too - we have third party there that betrays both sides - Fen'Harel, The Trickster.

Oh this sounds lame now, but story so far very much resembles the cosmogony from World of Warcraft. In WoW, we don't have one god, we have several of them (titans), we have fallen titan and of course Old Gods that spread corruption (famous 'curse of flesh'). Titans, the creators are silent, their creations corrupted either by fallen titan and his demons (we even have there the story that very much resembles the fate of Maker's First Children - the fall of eredar) and Old Gods are awakening, opposing, corrupting and hating titan's creations.

But all this boils down to one, physical vs spiritual pathway of thinking.

[Nimrodell]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

There is one way to view blood magic. That a mage sacrifices a little bit of life force (blood) to the demon and gets demon-power, which is also of the Fade, aka blood magic in return. It could be thought of like a short-cut to normal magic. This is not necessarily evil, I suppose, but the assumption is the mage will eventually ask for more power, and hence resort to taking blood of others, or fall prey to the demon eventually. And what is being portrayed in the games, in general, is that this tendency among blood mages is very common.

The corruption aspect of it goes a bit deeper, I'd guess, than just blood magic. It is perhaps some amalgamation of different types of magic that has resulted in great devastation, when perhaps the desire for power was so great than some were willing to do almost anything. I think in the end this is one explanation we might get for the corruption that is the taint.

To be honest, Avernus is just one source on this matter. In DA2 we have Tarohne and her evil tomes along with her implanting templars with demons (something that Uldred already tried to do to Warden in DA:O). While I was following these stories it just seemed to be that we actually have simple Tolkien's Catch 22 on power and wanting more power actually leading to diminishing of it by accepting physical manifestation of it. Same actually happened to demon of pride that had possessed the Baroness in Awakening. Baroness is very potent while being in the Fade (she holds the entire Black Marsh village there for who knows how long), but once out, demon itself can't hold on to the corporeal mortal form and is actually less potent - Warden kills him there.

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I dug up some interesting things about the characters you mentioned. Apparently Mikhael Dryden learnt his craft from dwarven smiths also. And supposedly in Darkspawn Chronicles Harren transforms into a desire demon and teleports himself and Wade to somewhere, if the PC tries to attack them. Not your everyday run of the mill characters, for sure. The point though is that Mikhael, Wade, Magister Harach - these may be exceptional individuals, with rare talents.

I always thought that the Harren!Desire Demon thing was a joke - since that whole DLC is really a "what if?"/alternate reality (of a fantasy reality???) exercise. I don't know...maybe it's intended to be canon. All I know is that I found it hilarious.

Nimrodell wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Believe it or not, this is a theory I have entertained alot:the taint being some sort of "spiritual antimatter" and there being s shadow, anti-matter mirror version of the fade that is completely in opposition to the normal fade, a reverse/inverse reflection so to speak.

And maybe born of a different dimension/universal reality, hence my theory that the black city is somehow not a natural part of the Fade, or even in the Fade itself, despite being visible.

This theory could work if we had DA world set up like in Zoroastrism (Ahura Mazda-Angra Mainyu) and elvish pantheon pretty much behaves that way if we use free and broad interpretation and mix it a bit with Nordic mythology (dualistic nature of their gods set up) or if the Maker himself would actually have his opposite like in Manichaeism. Even Tolkien's cosmogony (Eru vs Melkor - Arda Perfect/Arda Marred) pattern would be actually good for comparison if we had confirmation that the taint, corruption weren't just simply caused by mortals - it has to be a conflict on larger scale between higher forces, even primordial ones - like in elven story. But in elven story lies problem too - we have third party there that betrays both sides - Fen'Harel, The Trickster.

Oh this sounds lame now, but story so far very much resembles the cosmogony from World of Warcraft. In WoW, we don't have one god, we have several of them (titans), we have fallen titan and of course Old Gods that spread corruption (famous 'curse of flesh'). Titans, the creators are silent, their creations corrupted either by fallen titan and his demons (we even have there the story that very much resembles the fate of Maker's First Children - the fall of eredar) and Old Gods are awakening, opposing, corrupting and hating titan's creations.

But all this boils down to one, physical vs spiritual pathway of thinking.

I wonder where we would get confirmation on the taint though, other than from a god or powerful entity. The magisters would only be able to comment on what they saw - for clearly the taint, in some form, existed in Rotten Twinkie City before their arrival (or...before Corypheus's arrival - maybe there was another group who infiltrated the City, and it's only his hubris-expedition that we know about).

I don't know that Fen'Harel is too problematic. I'm not as versed as you in mythology Nimrodell, but I always took the Trickster persona to be an entity in and of himself - a bit of chaos, a bit of fate, a bit of mischief all wrapped up in one. But he's really more the way to bridge the gap between anything divine/intangible and the mortal/solid. He's what makes divinity seem less remote - so his characteristics are more human than remote. He jokes, he dances, he plays games (with people) - he's someone that is recognized but someone who is still with great power.

So taking that, Fen'Harel (theoretically) could step away from either side of the cosmic scale, could eschew the games of gods for the more entertaining (and less risky - to him) battle between humans. If he can manipulate the people, he may be able to either gain greater power for his own god vs god/light vs dark war.

I'm not saying that the taint didn't come from humans - it's seems all too original sin for me to abandon that theory. But I think the aspects of light and dark in the DA-verse have their origin in something greater than humans. It's just tricky to pin down exactly what.

[Rifneno]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I always thought that the Harren!Desire Demon thing was a joke - since that whole DLC is really a "what if?"/alternate reality (of a fantasy reality???) exercise. I don't know...maybe it's intended to be canon. All I know is that I found it hilarious.

Yeah, I remember one of the devs specifically saying that the Harren desire demon thing is not canon.  Rest of the DLC, who knows?  Not that there was much to be gleamed from it anyhow.

[Nimrodell]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I don't know that Fen'Harel is too problematic. I'm not as versed as you in mythology Nimrodell, but I always took the Trickster persona to be an entity in and of himself - a bit of chaos, a bit of fate, a bit of mischief all wrapped up in one. But he's really more the way to bridge the gap between anything divine/intangible and the mortal/solid. He's what makes divinity seem less remote - so his characteristics are more human than remote. He jokes, he dances, he plays games (with people) - he's someone that is recognized but someone who is still with great power.

So taking that, Fen'Harel (theoretically) could step away from either side of the cosmic scale, could eschew the games of gods for the more entertaining (and less risky - to him) battle between humans. If he can manipulate the people, he may be able to either gain greater power for his own god vs god/light vs dark war.

I'm not saying that the taint didn't come from humans - it's seems all too original sin for me to abandon that theory. But I think the aspects of light and dark in the DA-verse have their origin in something greater than humans. It's just tricky to pin down exactly what.

Oh I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that Fen'Harel is problematic in that regard. He is problem for me while I'm trying to discern little pieces of 'truth'... Tho, Fen'Harel behaves like Lokiand dualistic nature is sui generis for Loki. Let me be more clear - elven pantheon is politheistic but in essence it has dualistic set-up - two factions - those that are 'good', Gods of People, not omni-potent, just fulfilling their duties in order they know, and those that are recognized as 'evil' and are even named as Forgotten Ones and in the midst of that, we have Fen'Harel - neither good nor evil and yet both in the same time - recognized by both sides as their own kin. Loki in Norse mythology is like that.

Now to get things even more complicated - even though elves have politheistic pantheon that has roots in some of mythologies and even mystical cults in real life (their archetypes were used in creating this particular story), 'history' of elven people actually resembles very much the one told in Old Testament and Torah, of course with exception of god went silent part. Their exile, promise of a new land, their own land where they won't be oppressed anymore nor slaves and where they'll be finally free to practise their own religion. Everytime I read dalish part (not Arlathan one) - Dales, exile from the Dales, city elves and those who refused to submit and in their wandering their trying to preserve old ways and promise of a new land - I can't stop thinking how much tis similar to Jewish fate. And then I have to think about Hebrew Myths by Robert Graves and Ralph Patai and there are actually older layers of Old Testament stories that have many similarities with DA conception of the world - even though those stem from monistic conception - like the one of Chantry. But in all those, tis never direct guilt of Men that brings down the entire fall - Men is always pushed into hubris by higher power - even in monistic religions like Christianity .

We saw in Legacy that even Corypheus and his ilk were 'pushed' into 'first sin' by Dumat himself. Corypheus states that Dumat promised them untold power but they only found darkness.

That's why I don't trust Chantry version to the end - claiming that Men sin brought corruption into this world and made Maker to leave them. I just think that there was bigger clash between higher powers and that elven side actually confirms it.

[whykikyouwhy]

I take it then that the coercion of man to commit hubris is to give the "gods" some sort of upper hand? Tilt the axis as it were and assist the one group in superceding the other - that order and chaos (and their respective gods/representatives) are in constant battle, just by their nature? Hopefully I absorbed all of that properly.

This may support some of the theories that it wasn't Dumat who coaxed the magisters but Fen'Harel in disguise or using Dumat's voice. Since the dread wolf is so removed from the core struggle (in his ability to have a dual nature), he is better able to interact with man. Maybe the gods and forgotten ones never "spoke" to mortals at all. Maybe everything is the voice of the trickster.

At some point, this will all click into place and relate somehow with the thaig. Or with cheese.

[Nimrodell]

Tis just problem that I have with Andrastians and Chantry atm - it resembles very much to Christianity, but one big thing is missing in their philosophy and supposedly monistic concept. So far I didn't find any mention of the greatest catch that Christianity offers (no matter what faction) - free will. Maybe tis just something that I missed in DA world so far, but I didn't find any mention of it (even though Malcolm Hawke did teach his children that they have a choice, the whole Maker/Chantry shenenigan is actually not offering that possibility). Free will, abilitiy to choose is something like corner stone for monistic religions, their greatest weapon in preaching how all sin stems from those who were choosing (and here I mean higher entities like archangels and angels, and Men, but not God, the Creator). I don't know if it is yet to be mentioned in some of dlcs, or spin-off novels, or DA3, but so far, I don't see free will component while accusing Tevinter Mages for initial sin, and that is the problem too when it comes to magic and magic users.

While talking to Elthina, Hawke has option to tell her that Maker himself created the mages, and ask her why he is not protecting them. Tis a valid question considering that we don't have confirmation from the Chant of Light yet that there's actually free will involved. But that is also something that connects humans, elves and dwarves and their bits of points of view on what actually happened at the beginning. As we can see, Qunari that follow certainty and Koslun's teachings, bind their mages and that is justified, 'cause there's no free will, it is just asit tal-eb for them - to be (tho being doesn't mean living - it means confirming one's role). In conversations with Arishok, Hawke can question their certainty showing that secular society does believe in free will, but that is not the case with Andrastian religion yet.

Why am I saying this? Considering Primeval thaig and what it can represent, considering Brecilian Forest ruins, Amgeforn, etc... it seems there was grand plan indeed at the beginning and possible strife between several higher entities. As I said, I don't know how DA story designers will proceed, but so far tis more like having Moirae (ancient Greek) or Usud (old slavic) system at work... and somehow Flemeth and her doings so far do fit in possible grand scheme of things that happened and will happen. Especially 'cause we have prophecies too - Sandal's, Flemeth's and dalish one.

Modifié par Nimrodell, 27 août 2011 - 06:16 .

[whykikyouwhy]

It's possible that free will within the Andrastian faith is meant to be implied, and just isn't called out. And possibly it's not called out because the concept of "free will" in an rpg that has to, to some degree, adhere to a storyline and predefined plot, would cause conflict (or rather, there would have to be a point where inconsistencies arise). As it is, there is some discontent over the amount of role-playing a person can do inthe DA-verse, so the omission may be intentional for that reason - or as a way to directly avoid being too closely related to Christianity.

What's interesting is that even with the prophecies and Flemeth's guidance to just leap (in order to see if you can fly), there is an odd balance of destiny and the implication of choice, imo. Which I guess is the hallmark of fantasy - you hold great potential, there will be roads set before you, but you and you alone decide how to travel them (because travel them, you must).

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

To be honest, Avernus is just one source on this matter. In DA2 we have Tarohne and her evil tomes along with her implanting templars with demons (something that Uldred already tried to do to Warden in DA:O). While I was following these stories it just seemed to be that we actually have simple Tolkien's Catch 22 on power and wanting more power actually leading to diminishing of it by accepting physical manifestation of it. Same actually happened to demon of pride that had possessed the Baroness in Awakening. Baroness is very potent while being in the Fade (she holds the entire Black Marsh village there for who knows how long), but once out, demon itself can't hold on to the corporeal mortal form and is actually less potent - Warden kills him there.

I haven't played DA:A, but from reading the Wiki I got the sense that the Baroness was trying to escape death in the Fade and therefore ended up in the mortal realm, and was actually surprised that she could cross the Veil without possessing a body. The thing is that we've been introduced to the concept of being able to kill spirts/demons in the Fade as well, as we do with the sloth demon in DAO. So, although, I see your point about how too much power might result in corruption in some form, I'm not so sure it could be because of the physical manifestations as you suggest, at least with the example you gave.

Oh I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that Fen'Harel is problematic in that regard. He is problem for me while I'm trying to discern little pieces of 'truth'...

I'm not sure I've asked this before, but couldn't it also be true that Fen'Harel is merely a legend, and similarly the Creators and Forgotten Ones? What we have are accounts of gods by a people - the Dalish - who seemed to have pieced together information from what they think was their past. They do not know the "truth" and by extention neither do we. It is a worldview formed out of their unique persepective (whatever that means) on things. On their belief systems.

That's why I don't trust Chantry version to the end - claiming that Men sin brought corruption into this world and made Maker to leave them. I just think that there was bigger clash between higher powers and that elven side actually confirms it.

I think this is where we differ in our outlooks. I do not think the elven version is any more "real" or "true" than the human one. I simply think both could be legends. And even if one (or both) are true, I don't think we're not going to discover anything about that in the DA games. Although I do not know where these games are driving toward, I do not think that is their point.

And speaking of the taint - I think it is a very real and tangible thing. I'm not even sure whether we're going to discover the source of it; although it appears very much likely - just not 100% certain about it.

Tis just problem that I have with Andrastians and Chantry atm - it resembles very much to Christianity, but one big thing is missing in their philosophy and supposedly monistic concept. So far I didn't find any mention of the greatest catch that Christianity offers (no matter what faction) - free will. Maybe tis just something that I missed in DA world so far, but I didn't find any mention of it (even though Malcolm Hawke did teach his children that they have a choice, the whole Maker/Chantry shenenigan is actually not offering that possibility). Free will, abilitiy to choose is something like corner stone for monistic religions, their greatest weapon in preaching how all sin stems from those who were choosing (and here I mean higher entities like archangels and angels, and Men, but not God, the Creator). I don't know if it is yet to be mentioned in some of dlcs, or spin-off novels, or DA3, but so far, I don't see free will component while accusing Tevinter Mages for initial sin, and that is the problem too when it comes to magic and magic users.

Free will - by that I mean self determination - is implied in the Chant with both the Maker's first and second creations. Consider of the first born:
"There was no word
For heaven or for earth, for sea or sky.
All that existed was silence.
Then the Voice of the Maker rang out,
The first Word,
And His Word became all that might be:
Dream and idea, hope and fear,
Endless possibilities.
And from it made his firstborn.
And he said to them:
In My image I forge you,
To you I give dominion
Over all that exists.
By your will
May all things be done."

It is precisely because they failed to exercise creativity - their will to shape things - that the Maker became dissatisfied with them and abandoned them.

And, of the second born:
"And then the Maker sealed the gates
Of the Golden City
And there, He dwelled, waiting
To see the wonders
His children would create."

It seems to me that there is His creation, viz. everything, but what the beings do within it is their of their own accord. And what they do are what they are judged by. Not doing something is judged harshly, and so, too, is doing something "bad."

While talking to Elthina, Hawke has option to tell her that Maker himself created the mages, and ask her why he is not protecting them. Tis a valid question considering that we don't have confirmation from the Chant of Light yet that there's actually free will involved. But that is also something that connects humans, elves and dwarves and their bits of points of view on what actually happened at the beginning. As we can see, Qunari that follow certainty and Koslun's teachings, bind their mages and that is justified, 'cause there's no free will, it is just asit tal-eb for them - to be (tho being doesn't mean living - it means confirming one's role). In conversations with Arishok, Hawke can question their certainty showing that secular society does believe in free will, but that is not the case with Andrastian religion yet.

Regarding the Qunari, I do not think that it is a case that they don't have free will. They exercise it to a limited degree - in the sense of the professions the Qunari are allowed to choose. It is that they think exercising it would lead to the detriment of society - the society is their organism, living, breating, all important. And everything is subserviant to society for them. A distinctly extreme socialistic outlook.

We however have an example of creatures that lack free will in DA setting. And these are actually the darkspawn. These are soulless beings who are compelled to act the way they do, and they have no control over it. They utterly lack free will; they are programmed beings that go about their lives. And the corruption/taint is what directs them, the song, and ultimately the Archdemon gives them direction. It is nothing inherent within them that allows for them to decide anything. Which is why I think what was introduced in Awakening is somewhat crucial to understanding them - it is the "sentience" or "consciousness" or "soul" (re?)introduced (a-la Matrix) that changes them; that gives them reason to exist beyond their programming - to think, to choose, to act for themselves.

Why am I saying this? Considering Primeval thaig and what it can represent, considering Brecilian Forest ruins, Amgeforn, etc... it seems there was grand plan indeed at the beginning and possible strife between several higher entities. As I said, I don't know how DA story designers will proceed, but so far tis more like having Moirae (ancient Greek) or Usud (old slavic) system at work... and somehow Flemeth and her doings so far do fit in possible grand scheme of things that happened and will happen. Especially 'cause we have prophecies too - Sandal's, Flemeth's and dalish one.

These are difficult to explain at the moment. But the recurring theme for me has been each race's confrontation with some powerful being (demon, perhaps) and their binding of it in lyrium, using some form of blood magic, etc. We see this with the events at Sundermount, for example, when a demon of pride was bound to an idol (by the Magisters, elves?), and held there by means of some magic - which Marethari releases. We see this also with Amgeforn, with the dwarves this time. All kind of hinting at magic gone horribly wrong - the tearing of the Veil and allowing some demon to slip through.

The oddities have been the darkspawn corruption - something unbound, running amok - and the strange variety of lyrium found in the Primeval Thaig and how it resulted in the events in Kirkwall. All perhaps hinting at darker things bound in the past, but somehow unbound by men's, elves', dwarves' quest for power, perhaps in their confrontations with one another.

Do all this however hint at a grander war between gods in the past? Perhaps. But I think that is just one way of considering things.

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 28 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I dug up some interesting things about the characters you mentioned. Apparently Mikhael Dryden learnt his craft from dwarven smiths also. And supposedly in Darkspawn Chronicles Harren transforms into a desire demon and teleports himself and Wade to somewhere, if the PC tries to attack them. Not your everyday run of the mill characters, for sure. The point though is that Mikhael, Wade, Magister Harach - these may be exceptional individuals, with rare talents.

I always thought that the Harren!Desire Demon thing was a joke - since that whole DLC is really a "what if?"/alternate reality (of a fantasy reality???) exercise. I don't know...maybe it's intended to be canon. All I know is that I found it hilarious.

Ah. I found it a bit weird when I first read that. Makes sense to think of it as a joke.

[Nimrodell]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

To be honest, Avernus is just one source on this matter. In DA2 we have Tarohne and her evil tomes along with her implanting templars with demons (something that Uldred already tried to do to Warden in DA:O). While I was following these stories it just seemed to be that we actually have simple Tolkien's Catch 22 on power and wanting more power actually leading to diminishing of it by accepting physical manifestation of it. Same actually happened to demon of pride that had possessed the Baroness in Awakening. Baroness is very potent while being in the Fade (she holds the entire Black Marsh village there for who knows how long), but once out, demon itself can't hold on to the corporeal mortal form and is actually less potent - Warden kills him there.

I haven't played DA:A, but from reading the Wiki I got the sense that the Baroness was trying to escape death in the Fade and therefore ended up in the mortal realm, and was actually surprised that she could cross the Veil without possessing a body. The thing is that we've been introduced to the concept of being able to kill spirts/demons in the Fade as well, as we do with the sloth demon in DAO. So, although, I see your point about how too much power might result in corruption in some form, I'm not so sure it could be because of the physical manifestations as you suggest, at least with the example you gave.

That's where you got it wrong - Baroness has stopped being herself long time ago. At the time we meet her, she's actually abomination in Fade - as Justice states when you meet him and confirms it when he gets pulled out of the Fade. When she's (pride demon or pride abomination while she's still holding her form) out, she's not surprised with fact that she didn't have to possess any body - she merely states that she didn't know she can get out by sundering Black Marsh veil again. But anyway, I wasn't stating, I was speculating .

As for the 'truth', when I say 'truth' I don't mean elven or dwarven or human one - I mean the one that is behind all those stories . That's why I use captions - I don't know if you read that long post I wrote few pages ago - that's where I clearly explain what I mean by saying 'truth' and constant repeating 'different points of view' . If you wish to read it and you didn't notice it, here it is. So no, I don't mean that elves are telling the truth nor do I think that anyone's telling the truth - I look at those as bits and pieces, told and seen and interpreted from different points of view on something that actually happened - it is distorted in lore, maybe misinterpreted, but still it can be seen, small portions of it trough all those believes and stories.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Filament wrote...

But if they're two sides of the same coin, that means they would be inherently related. <_< Darkspawn and demonic corruption having similar properties would be a demonstration of the theory, not a contradiction.

But that's my point, they are not two sides of the same coin. They are unrelated in any way. That's what I mean by alien, in terms of the taint vs the demons. The lore states that even demons avoid the Black City and are not comfortable with it. Avernus states the taint is alien, something they are very vulnerable to and weak against. These two things lead me to believe that demons and the taint are two very unrelated concepts. And this is most likely due to the black city and its taint being things unatural to the Fade, as well as the physical reality. Demons are a normal, natural part of the Fade, they are native to it. And though they are not native to physical reality, physical reality is not something alien to them, just a different part of reality that they desire to experience or rule.

The fact that the taint destroys spirits and demons, and corrupts physical entities like people and animals in similar fashion, tells me it is a totally different concept that has its origins in somewhere beyond the Fade and Thedas proper. That the Black City is the source of the taint, that we know for a fact. The question is, what is the black city exactly, and WHERE is it exactly?

The only thing I can say is that the Black City, and the taint it carries, do not seem to be native, natural things, and probably either come from somewhere else beyond.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Darius Vir wrote...


Oh, I agree.  Avernus's experiences are so important, imo, because they are empirical.  The guy has been messing with this stuff, as you mention, for centuries.  

However it was that he found out  and can actually tell this, he did....he doesn't hear the call of the Old Gods, he hears the call of the Black City.  The Taint is something that has its core within the Black City. 

The Taint is way more bizarre than I realized on my initial playthroughs- then I just sort of equated Taint/Darkspawn and didn't think anything more of it..  But, the Taint can reside in and affect Grey Wardens, the Archdemons, and ghouls.  It also apparently gives a quasi-immortality, serves as a nourishment source, and as a powerful magic source.  Freakish. 

Very much so. And yeah, Avernus actually hearing the Black City calling, and not the Archdemon....that is really weird and creepy. The Black City is definitely the source of the taint, but it's even more than that. I am also reminded in the Dalish Origin how Tamlen said he could see what is likely to have been the Black City in the eluvian. So it gets even weirder and weirder.

Which, is a good thing, in my opinion. The weirder, the better.