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[whykikyouwhy]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Filament wrote...

But if they're two sides of the same coin, that means they would be inherently related. <_< Darkspawn and demonic corruption having similar properties would be a demonstration of the theory, not a contradiction.

But that's my point, they are not two sides of the same coin. They are unrelated in any way. That's what I mean by alien, in terms of the taint vs the demons. The lore states that even demons avoid the Black City and are not comfortable with it. Avernus states the taint is alien, something they are very vulnerable to and weak against. These two things lead me to believe that demons and the taint are two very unrelated concepts. And this is most likely due to the black city and its taint being things unatural to the Fade, as well as the physical reality. Demons are a normal, natural part of the Fade, they are native to it. And though they are not native to physical reality, physical reality is not something alien to them, just a different part of reality that they desire to experience or rule.

The fact that the taint destroys spirits and demons, and corrupts physical entities like people and animals in similar fashion, tells me it is a totally different concept that has its origins in somewhere beyond the Fade and Thedas proper. That the Black City is the source of the taint, that we know for a fact. The question is, what is the black city exactly, and WHERE is it exactly?

The only thing I can say is that the Black City, and the taint it carries, do not seem to be native, natural things, and probably either come from somewhere else beyond.

I interpret the demons' revulsion and avoidance of the taint and Rotten Twinkie City (or what it represents) to be instinctual. It isn't that it's alien so much as it's what they know deep down within their core to be that which will destroy them. If it has antimatter-type properties, they may be reacting to that on a primal level - moving away from that which their very being is repelled by. They don't understand it, it is alien to them in concept, but they move by what their nature dictates - which is avoidance.

I don't know that the taint is so alien (not saying that you're wrong, just saying I'm not on that particular path of speculation). It may just be that magic ("good" magic) has been welcomed/accepted, studied and embraced, so there is a better understanding of it. Or so the Thedans believe - because magic is incorporated into religion. It becomes tangible. The taint represents all that is negative and destructive, so the study of it has been limited to a select few, like Avernus. And they are ostracized from society to a degree.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nimrodell wrote...


This theory could work if we had DA world set up like in Zoroastrism (Ahura Mazda-Angra Mainyu) and elvish pantheon pretty much behaves that way if we use free and broad interpretation and mix it a bit with Nordic mythology (dualistic nature of their gods set up) or if the Maker himself would actually have his opposite like in Manichaeism. Even Tolkien's cosmogony (Eru vs Melkor - Arda Perfect/Arda Marred) pattern would be actually good for comparison if we had confirmation that the taint, corruption weren't just simply caused by mortals - it has to be a conflict on larger scale between higher forces, even primordial ones - like in elven story. But in elven story lies problem too - we have third party there that betrays both sides - Fen'Harel, The Trickster.

Oh this sounds lame now, but story so far very much resembles the cosmogony from World of Warcraft. In WoW, we don't have one god, we have several of them (titans), we have fallen titan and of course Old Gods that spread corruption (famous 'curse of flesh'). Titans, the creators are silent, their creations corrupted either by fallen titan and his demons (we even have there the story that very much resembles the fate of Maker's First Children - the fall of eredar) and Old Gods are awakening, opposing, corrupting and hating titan's creations.

But all this boils down to one, physical vs spiritual pathway of thinking.

The thing is, there is no universally accepted cosmology of DA's setting. You have multiple, and often conflicting, views and philosophies that try to impose some sort of cosmic order. Just as I do not take the Chantry's version of events as the full truth, I consider elven and even dwarven versions equally subjective and suspect. All three versions are different peoples trying to come up with some sort of explaination in context of their own social and cultural perspective. At most, I look for areas where the three ideologies agree on something, where they overlap, which they seldom do.

The actual nature of the old Tevinter "gods" is still a mystery. They seem to have been dragons, but they were more than that, obviously, especially when you look at your standard run of the mill high dragon in the setting. They might be related to the elven pantheon, it's possible. But we know very little of how the ancient elves saw their gods or revered them, even the Dalish are stuck with fragments of knowledge.

But elven gods, even the "darker" ones, still do not seem to be connected to the Black City on basic level. Even the old gods of Tevinter, if they are indeed the dragon entities that end up becoming archdemons, become twisted and corrupted by taint like everything else.

The Black City resembles a sort of spiritual "black hole/singularity" though vaguely. Not exactly like a black hole would function in our space/time reality, but in the sense that the Black City seems to defy, twist, and corrupt all the physical, spiritual, and magical laws/norms of Thedas.

[Rifneno]

Since we've gone this far off topic and it's all about speculation, something I've been wondering lately but didn't feel was worthy of a new topic: The Harvester.

Basically a demon possessing a big pile of flesh and gore. Gross as holy hell, but I don't understand where all the badassery is coming from. The one in Amgarrak especially. Orsino's was a pretty standard Act III named. Not that there's anything wrong with that, some pretty hardcore stuff is an Act III named. The one in Amgarrak though... sweet lord. That thing made the archdemon look like a genlock cannon fodder. What I'm wondering is, was it canon that he was made of the nightmares of the gods and the hearts of stars it had eaten? Or was it just to give us a tactical challenge? If it is supposed to be that powerful, why? When they pulled some random spirit/demon from the Fade to use did they accidentally summon one of the most powerful demons in existence?

But even Orsino's one made a pride demon look like a sissy. I don't get it. Demons possess corpses all the time. Why is it on more steroids than the MLB if it gets a big pile of gore instead of one in-tact body? Especially since flesh and visceral material is just the soft squishy stuff? Bone and teeth are the stuff that makes armor and weaponry. So I'm left wondering whether the whole flesh golem gimmick is more for shock value or if there's something we don't know that makes them such a danger...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I interpret the demons' revulsion and avoidance of the taint and Rotten Twinkie City (or what it represents) to be instinctual. It isn't that it's alien so much as it's what they know deep down within their core to be that which will destroy them. If it has antimatter-type properties, they may be reacting to that on a primal level - moving away from that which their very being is repelled by. They don't understand it, it is alien to them in concept, but they move by what their nature dictates - which is avoidance.

I don't know that the taint is so alien (not saying that you're wrong, just saying I'm not on that particular path of speculation). It may just be that magic ("good" magic) has been welcomed/accepted, studied and embraced, so there is a better understanding of it. Or so the Thedans believe - because magic is incorporated into religion. It becomes tangible. The taint represents all that is negative and destructive, so the study of it has been limited to a select few, like Avernus. And they are ostracized from society to a degree.

Even the spiritual anti-matter theory still goes towards what I was saying about it being alien. Anti-matter itself is a very "alien" thing, that any being composed of normal matter will avoid if they value their existance. Of course the demons will instinctually avoid it. It is something that is alien and unatural, naturally they will avoid it.

Of course, when we talk of spiritual anti-matter, i was using that as a general metaphor, not an exact comparison. When matter and anti-matter come into contact with oneanother in our reality, they mutally cancel each other out and annihilate one another. The taint doesn't do this. When it comes in contact with "normal" entities or objects in the Fade or real world, it corrupts them and changes them, destroying the "normal" and replacing with corrupted versions,. It behaves somewhere inbetween anti-matter and say, a virus or plague.

Little is truly understood, even by the Wardens, of the very basic nature of the taint, beyond its source. But after some 1300 years of Blights, I find it interesting that the best anyone could find out was that the taint could manipulated and harnessed (Grey Warden Joining) but no one can seem to find a cure or way to destroy it.

The Chantry certainly would be a hinderance to Circle mages trying to study it, but the Grey Wardens follow no such restrictions, and seem to defy alot of the Chantry's laws and rules on magical research and exploration. Avernus even says it is only under the Wardens could proper magical research be conducted, and we see other hints in both game and lore that the Wardens do in fact, explore and research without paying much heed to what the Chantry might say or do. Even Iriving, in that deleted scene after the Broken Circle quest is completed, you sided with the mages, and Wynne tries to shop your Warden to Gregoire if they have the blood mage spec. Irving says something like "Grey Warden magic being different, alot of things questionable, but still allowed under the Warden Aegis.

yet with all this, no one has found an answer or cure. At most, we have Fiona mysteriously being "cured", but she is the only known example of this, and even that remains a mystery.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

That's where you got it wrong - Baroness has stopped being herself long time ago. At the time we meet her, she's actually abomination in Fade - as Justice states when you meet him and confirms it when he gets pulled out of the Fade. When she's (pride demon or pride abomination while she's still holding her form) out, she's not surprised with fact that she didn't have to possess any body - she merely states that she didn't know she can get out by sundering Black Marsh veil again. But anyway, I wasn't stating, I was speculating .

I was relying on the Wiki, so I may have misinterpreted things. I think it's time for me to do an Awakening playthrough, though. Should be interesting.

As for the 'truth', when I say 'truth' I don't mean elven or dwarven or human one - I mean the one that is behind all those stories . That's why I use captions - I don't know if you read that long post I wrote few pages ago - that's where I clearly explain what I mean by saying 'truth' and constant repeating 'different points of view' . If you wish to read it and you didn't notice it, here it is. So no, I don't mean that elves are telling the truth nor do I think that anyone's telling the truth - I look at those as bits and pieces, told and seen and interpreted from different points of view on something that actually happened - it is distorted in lore, maybe misinterpreted, but still it can be seen, small portions of it trough all those believes and stories.

Oh, ok. One event - multiple interpretations, views. That makes sense. Generally, though, I perceive religious explanations as merely filling in gaps in explanations - not necessarily true by themselves. That's what I was trying to say. But I admit that such explanations could pull in some history into them - so, they could also be clues in themselves.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

Since we've gone this far off topic and it's all about speculation, something I've been wondering lately but didn't feel was worthy of a new topic: The Harvester.

Basically a demon possessing a big pile of flesh and gore. Gross as holy hell, but I don't understand where all the badassery is coming from. The one in Amgarrak especially. Orsino's was a pretty standard Act III named. Not that there's anything wrong with that, some pretty hardcore stuff is an Act III named. The one in Amgarrak though... sweet lord. That thing made the archdemon look like a genlock cannon fodder. What I'm wondering is, was it canon that he was made of the nightmares of the gods and the hearts of stars it had eaten? Or was it just to give us a tactical challenge? If it is supposed to be that powerful, why? When they pulled some random spirit/demon from the Fade to use did they accidentally summon one of the most powerful demons in existence?

But even Orsino's one made a pride demon look like a sissy. I don't get it. Demons possess corpses all the time. Why is it on more steroids than the MLB if it gets a big pile of gore instead of one in-tact body? Especially since flesh and visceral material is just the soft squishy stuff? Bone and teeth are the stuff that makes armor and weaponry. So I'm left wondering whether the whole flesh golem gimmick is more for shock value or if there's something we don't know that makes them such a danger...

I haven't played this DLC, so I cannot really offer much. Just a few thoughts.

Apparently a dwarf and a Tevinter mage were trying to recreate the work of Caridin, when this happened. And not finding enough iron for the work, they decided to use the bodies of casteless instead. I do not know what thay actually did - did they use living subjects, dead subjects? Whatever it was, they used lyrium for some purpose, and then they bound a Fade spirit to this madness. So I suppose it is more than the average golem.

The thing that interests me also are the lyrium wells, the different shifts in the colors of the environment, some switches diverting (raw or molten?) lyrium streams. What is all this? I'm sure this has some big role to play in what a harvester is - above and beyond the binding of a spirit to flesh. And why is it that the head can come unhinged from the body, scamper off, and then reform? Why does it do that? We see that in DA2 as well.

(EDIT: Just realized something. Apparently the little runt is the harvester. So all the flesh it covers itself with is the armor. So as long as it has dead flesh lying around, which it can harvest, it keeps re-forming itself. So your question about why flesh and why not bone is a valid one; so it is probably something that flesh has, probably in the creation of the golem itself, that bone doesn't, or maybe flesh = flesh + bone. In any case I seem to remember iron golems, flesh golemns, stone golems from other games also - nothing like a bone golem )

And in any case, I'd think the DA2 harvester was a bit different. For one thing blood magic and necromancy (research of Quentin) was involved. Not lyrium. But the principle seemed to be similar - Orisino's harvesting of dead mage bodies - stitching them together to become what he did.

To put it simply, I do not think that a harvester's powers were just to test the player's talents in combat, but its powers are something real. For one thing, if an abomination is mage + demon, then a harvester is flesh + demon + lyrium - something monstrous, to say the least, especially if we think of lyrium as an amplifier of power.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 28 août 2011 - 04:49 .

[Nimrodell]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

That's where you got it wrong - Baroness has stopped being herself long time ago. At the time we meet her, she's actually abomination in Fade - as Justice states when you meet him and confirms it when he gets pulled out of the Fade. When she's (pride demon or pride abomination while she's still holding her form) out, she's not surprised with fact that she didn't have to possess any body - she merely states that she didn't know she can get out by sundering Black Marsh veil again. But anyway, I wasn't stating, I was speculating .

I was relying on the Wiki, so I may have misinterpreted things. I think it's time for me to do an Awakening playthrough, though. Should be interesting.

As for the 'truth', when I say 'truth' I don't mean elven or dwarven or human one - I mean the one that is behind all those stories . That's why I use captions - I don't know if you read that long post I wrote few pages ago - that's where I clearly explain what I mean by saying 'truth' and constant repeating 'different points of view' . If you wish to read it and you didn't notice it, here it is. So no, I don't mean that elves are telling the truth nor do I think that anyone's telling the truth - I look at those as bits and pieces, told and seen and interpreted from different points of view on something that actually happened - it is distorted in lore, maybe misinterpreted, but still it can be seen, small portions of it trough all those believes and stories.

Oh, ok. One event - multiple interpretations, views. That makes sense. Generally, though, I perceive religious explanations as merely filling in gaps in explanations - not necessarily true by themselves. That's what I was trying to say. But I admit that such explanations could pull in some history into them - so, they could also be clues in themselves.

I just watched the full interview with Mark Darrah and Michael Laidlaw today on Pax and there was good question about codex entries and how BW writers manage to write them all and Mark Darrah said something that is very important for this discussion. Basically, they are feigning the processes of story telling and history writing from reality - so those mechanisms are present - meaning, some codex entries have major spoilers and bring in bits of 'truth' some are distorted, even false - just like it goes in real world - it all depends on that particular person, institution, even oral literature heritage (like lets say brother Genitivi that is actually a scholar, Sheparate and elves) and their goals - are they objective, how much knowledge do they actually possess, is there political game behind all of that. But it all helps in actual search for 'truth'. And yes, you should go for The Awakening - tis fun .

@Rifneno - just like Old Oak states about sylvans - some spirits were drawn into Brecilian Forest after so much bloodshed, got bound to trees and then went mad since they weren't able to see nor talk. Nereda did basically the same thing to a spirit from the Fade, bound it to corpses of casteless dwarves. That's why I keep repeating that incarnation, tying being of power to a matter, giving it corporeal form is usually something that is diminishing them at the end - in this case, their sanity is lost... just imagine memories from those bodies and what that spirit had to endure, the madness and death traumas... And we know that happens for certain 'cause Justice told us that openly. He told us that he can feel the Kristoff's traces all around him, even mere object kept the memory of that man that used to live. After all, if you side with Caridin, you'll get at the end the story about trying to recreate his work and binding spirit from the Fade to a golem body and spirit's killing spree 'cause it went mad. DA2 goes further in that notion, 'cause we know what happens to Justice... almost the same scenario that we got with Lady of the Forest. Spirits can sense traces of those that perished and they do adopt the nature of those that they inhabit (like Lady, she knows frenzy and bloodthurst of the Witherfang and it took her quite time to actually calm that new nature she was bound to).

So, that's how I would explain Harvester... just imagine the madness, the horror if you had such nature as spirits do and then being bound to corpses and in the moment of binding, feeling so many memories, so many voices and deaths... Justice lost him self to a one man with enough hatred... just imagine what happened to that poor spirit in Amgarrak. I guess, Orsino does the same thing, probably sundering the veil or opening it, drawing spirit in and then binding it to his and bodies of other murdered mages. Pure madness.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Nimrodell wrote...

I just watched the full interview with Mark Darrah and Michael Laidlaw today on Pax and there was good question about codex entries and how BW writers manage to write them all and Mark Darrah said something that is very important for this discussion. Basically, they are feigning the processes of story telling and history writing from reality - so those mechanisms are present - meaning, some codex entries have major spoilers and bring in bits of 'truth' some are distorted, even false - just like it goes in real world - it all depends on that particular person, institution, even oral literature heritage (like lets say brother Genitivi that is actually a scholar, Sheparate and elves) and their goals - are they objective, how much knowledge do they actually possess, is there political game behind all of that. But it all helps in actual search for 'truth'. And yes, you should go for The Awakening - tis fun

This is what I suspected they were doing. DA setting is on a grander scale and it draws from reality, as you were suggesting with how the Dalish resemble the Jewish (without a homeland for a long time). So, if they take such from the real-life examples, they should also model in the inconsistencies, the lies, the political games we see in reality. And as you observed below, with truths, half truths, interpretations all being added in to not just the codex entries, but NPC interactions, with their prejudices, and so on, the game becomes more and more how reality is - it is just a different type of reality - with magic, the Fade, spirits, all very much real but extra in this setting.

This is actually where my "guess" that we'll not learn anything "real" about the gods comes from. I get an inkling that this is also based on reality. Many of the "difficulties" with gods we have in reality would also be present in this game. For instance, if something were to appear and proclaim itself to be the Creator, what would that really mean? Would anyone even believe Him/It? How did Andraste know that Maker whisper to her? Just as the Guardian questions Leliana's "personal" interaction with the Maker in DAO, the same would apply to the Prophet also. All very much obscured, very much in doubt. And this goes across species.

It would be certainly interesting to see where they take this. The major past events I think might get explanations, but none of the ultimate questions, I'm guessing.

[whykikyouwhy]

Alright my fellow slaves to speculation...I feel some shred of grand guilt for getting Rifneno's thread so far off track, but the call of rotten Twinkie's is most compelling. So let me attempt to tie things back to the thaig.

I didn't see this in anything over the last week's span of posts (maybe I missed it...there's a lot of good stuff there, so it I did skim over some mention, I apologize), but have we delved into one of the items in the latest item pack - the staff Valdasine?

***SPOILER WARNING***


The codex entry states:

In the ancient days before the darkspawn, when dwarven cities wound through the roots of all the earth, House Valdasine single-handedly kept the empire supplied with lyrium.

One day the mining family shut the doors of their thaig. They spoke not to their noble patrons, nor their king, and not even a visiting Paragon. Days passed in silence before the doors to Valdasine Thaig opened. Anxious partners discovered it empty. Not one soul remained—no bodies and no sign of what had happened.

House Valdasine only left a staff of strange metal behind. It looked like lyrium and chilled one's heart like a remembered sorrow. The king sealed the staff inside the thaig, and no dwarf ever ventured there again.

—As recounted by Shaper Merta

All sorts of juicy goodness in that!

EDIT - Got the item pack reference wrong. :/

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 31 août 2011 - 09:45 .

[Nimrodell]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Alright my fellow slaves to speculation...I feel some shred of grand guilt for getting Rifneno's thread so far off track, but the call of rotten Twinkie's is most compelling. So let me attempt to tie things back to the thaig.

I didn't see this in anything over the last week's span of posts (maybe I missed it...there's a lot of good stuff there, so it I did skim over some mention, I apologize), but have we delved into one of the items in the latest item pack - the staff Valdasine?

***SPOILER WARNING***


The codex entry states:

In the ancient days before the darkspawn, when dwarven cities wound through the roots of all the earth, House Valdasine single-handedly kept the empire supplied with lyrium.

One day the mining family shut the doors of their thaig. They spoke not to their noble patrons, nor their king, and not even a visiting Paragon. Days passed in silence before the doors to Valdasine Thaig opened. Anxious partners discovered it empty. Not one soul remained—no bodies and no sign of what had happened.

House Valdasine only left a staff of strange metal behind. It looked like lyrium and chilled one's heart like a remembered sorrow. The king sealed the staff inside the thaig, and no dwarf ever ventured there again.

—As recounted by Shaper Merta

All sorts of juicy goodness in that!

Ah, you, muppet, I kept repeating - Valdasine! and no one actually reacted... damn forum form and stigma of long posts . Thank you for pointing it out  again. I got too tired of trying it . Btw, this evening, just for  you and Rifneno, I took Oghren for the first time onto Urn of Sacred Ashes and Test of Fate q-line and the strangest thing happened. I had Shayle, Sten and Oghren in my party for the first time and when Oghren entered the hall b4 Guaridan he literally said this - This mountain is stuffed with lyrium, I can smell it... makes you wonder if it's about Andraste or all this lyrium lying about.

I said to myself, ffs, I played Origins for zillion times and never took Oghren here and it was brilliant, finally saw him properly as a character, but also I got another piece of puzzle . That mountain is actually stuffed with lyrium and since I saw how it looks if one desecrates the Ashes and read well the codex entry on Ash Wraiths... lets just say, I felt good.. it is all tied, bound. But now, I really would like to read thoughts on Valdasine... c'mon, Rifneno, what do u think about that? Been waiting for different opinions on it for several pages now.

[whykikyouwhy]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ah, you, muppet, I kept repeating - Valdasine! and no one actually reacted... damn forum form and stigma of long posts . Thank you for pointing it out  again. I got too tired of trying it . Btw, this evening, just for  you and Rifneno, I took Oghren for the first time onto Urn of Sacred Ashes and Test of Fate q-line and the strangest thing happened. I had Shayle, Sten and Oghren in my party for the first time and when Oghren entered the hall b4 Guaridan he literally said this - This mountain is stuffed with lyrium, I can smell it... makes you wonder if it's about Andraste or all this lyrium lying about.

I said to myself, ffs, I played Origins for zillion times and never took Oghren here and it was brilliant, finally saw him properly as a character, but also I got another piece of puzzle . That mountain is actually stuffed with lyrium and since I saw how it looks if one desecrates the Ashes and read well the codex entry on Ash Wraiths... lets just say, I felt good.. it is all tied, bound. But now, I really would like to read thoughts on Valdasine... c'mon, Rifneno, what do u think about that? Been waiting for different opinions on it for several pages now.

Ah hell...you did bring it up before, but I hadn't made the connection! So apologies for that. I downloaded the DLC on Tuesday, but didn't really delve into it until later in the week - and there was just so much stuff in there that I glazed over some codex entries. Foolish of me. *bows to you* I should have kept a keener ear/eye.

I have read several speculations regarding the lyrium supposedly dwelling underneath the Urn's temple - most center around the retconning of Leliana. The popular theory being that perhaps the lyrium was part and party to that particular loose end (if you played a Warden that killed her. Why anyone would do that, I don't know, but that's a different matter entirely).

Valdasine actually makes me think more of the odd room mentioned in The Calling. Where Duncan's party is assaulted by a demon/spirit amidst either corpses or skeletons (it's been awhile since I read it). Not sure if it's the same section of the Deep Roads, or just an event that seems to repeat itself. Thaigs being closed off, abandoned...forgotten. Removed from memory in both mortal and the Shaperate. Evil stuff, that.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 28 août 2011 - 10:52 .

[Macropodmum]

Umm...just while we are side stepping on the Urn's temple for a moment, I was replaying this last night and noticed that the elven god statue that is found in the Dalish origins temple (the one Tamlin comments on) is found throughout the temple of the urn. This makes me wonder if it was just convenient to be reused or whether the elves helped build the temple to Andraste and this may be when elves and humans were living in harmony together?

[whykikyouwhy]

One day, if and when I am feeling truly productive and ambitious, I may take it upon myself to make a huuuuuge chart to visually link all of these bits and pieces, dribs and drabs, of clues, hints, seemingly random occurrences and the like.

One day...when my head is not swimming with visions of sugarplums cheese.

[Macropodmum]

Lol, I took screenshots if you want them.....

[Siduri]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Believe it or not, this is a theory I have entertained alot:the taint being some sort of "spiritual antimatter" and there being s shadow, anti-matter mirror version of the fade that is completely in opposition to the normal fade, a reverse/inverse reflection so to speak.

And maybe born of a different dimension/universal reality, hence my theory that the black city is somehow not a natural part of the Fade, or even in the Fade itself, despite being visible.

My own pet theory involves dimension-walking too, but is a bit different. Basically, I think the Fade is a nexus among multiple dimensions--the Golden City being something like Sigil from Planescape, a center hub from which these other dimensions can be accessed. Normally travel across the Fade is only spiritual, not physical. When matter from different dimensions interacts, the result is highly unnatural -- not explosive, but depending on how "far apart" the dimensions in question are, the matter of both becomes corrupted. That's why the eluvian are so dangerous: they allow physical travel via the Fade, and so they can easily become corrupted and spread taint. Plus, obviously, they can allow hostile extra-dimensional creatures to cross over into the world of Thedas.

Not all interactions between different dimensions are completely disastrous. For example, I don't think humans are originally native to the world of Thedas. They're from some other dimension, but crossed over somewhere in Par Vollen, and gradually spread from there. That's why their interaction with elves (who are native) spreads a weak form of taint among the elves, causing them to lose their immortality and their gift for magic). But the dimensions of humans and elves weren't very "far apart" to begin with, and the two races can co-exist without spreading any really virulent blight.

I think most of the "gods" of Thedas (including the draconic Old Gods and the gods of the elves) are actually powerful mages and planeswalkers. Elven mythology probably tells the story of a civil war among two groups of elven leaders, which was ended by Fen'Haral somehow stripping both groups of their ability to travel via the Fade (leaving them stranded in their own extra-dimensional fortresses). I don't know how the Old Gods originally became imprisoned underground in Thedas, but it may well have been some kind of analogous thing, a civil war among the dragon-mages in their home dimension.

Anyway, when the elven mages taught the humans how to access the Fade, the humans made mental contact with the Old Gods and everything went downhill from there. Dumat urged his followers to travel physically into the Fade, using the Golden City as a central portal to access Dumat's underground prison and free him. This did actually work, but in doing so the humans became exposed to some form of extradimensional matter that caused a disastrous interaction, very quickly spreading a particularly virulent form of taint within the Golden City itself, and also corrupting the humans and Dumat. They returned to Thedas to start the first Blight, and the Golden City remains tainted.

That's how I've pieced together all the little fragments of lore we've been given so far. Of course new information could totally change my theory...

Edited to add: Oh, and a further piece of my pet theory -- Flemeth is not one of the Old Gods, but may be one of their descendents (similar to Urzara). Or she may simply be from the same homeworld as they are. In any case I think it's that dimension -- the draconic home dimension -- that Morrigan is going to through the Eluvian at the end of Witch Hunt.

Modifié par Siduri, 29 août 2011 - 12:43 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

I think lyrium can become possessed. I mean, look at golems. They build a stone shell around a person, then fill the shell with molten lyrium. Clearly this would kill the person... but the golem lives. I guess the soul of a person can possess lyrium and be able to animate it.

I get the feeling that you're very close to something...

Let me state how I look at this. What Caridin did - encase naked dwarves in armor and pour lyrium to fill in every conceivable hole, ******, crack - actually does something. The armor is for protection - to make them hard to kill (which was the purpose I suppose). But lyrium - I think it must be to trap the spirit, the soul, whatever. What he did to them should have killed them, but it doesn't.

Perhaps when a man dies his body stays back in the mortal realm, but his soul escapes. To where? The Fade, the beyond? But by surrounding the dying body in lyrium, the escape route is closed; the spirit trapped. So just like the Veil prevents movement of the spirit from the Fade to the mortal realm, lyrium does exactly the same thing in the opposite direction.

Kind of makes one wonder if those spirits in the Fade are actually from the mortal realm - all trapped in the Fade for some reason. Maybe because of the kind of death? Some desire in the mortal world unfulfilled, some rage unsatisfied? Because of which they don't get to "cross over" or something like that.

Taking this a bit further. What we (as Thedasians) see in dreams are actually all these spirts trapped in lyrium, over the ages - perhaps a very long time indeed. This is just a thought - it doesn't have power to explain much at the moment.

Spirits can do this too, as they've tried to do with golems as an alternative to sacrificing a person. The golem goes insane... because the spirit possesses the lyrium.

Now, what would happen if you, say, melted down a golem into a large vat of molten lyrium... would the soul "die" and free itself of the lyrium, or would it instead possess the entire vat of lyrium?

My guess is the soul would escape - most likely to the Fade, depending, of course.

It might be that if lyrium is full of magical energy, it can coalesce into some form of sentience even without a spirit being bound into it... the same way demons and spirits coalesce in the Fade, I guess. That's how I imagine them coming into being, anyway-- just coalescing out of Fade energy, like how the Shah Wyrd did apparently. Which is why it would be rather impossible to attempt to assault the Fade to eradicate the spirits, because the Fade creates spirits intrinsically.

Those are my thoughts anyway on Valdasine and why maybe the lyrium would "want to be worshiped."

No I don't think lyrium would somehow get to have sentience. It doesn't make sense to me, and the example you gave makes me think otherwise.

I read up on the Shah Wyrd - I had forgotten about it. "A bunch of thoughts coalescing together in the Fade and creating a rage demon?" And "mind or minds that let this loose in the Fade must have been ancient and powerful indeed?" What do you suppose that means?

I do not think it is as you say - that the Fade creates spirits this way. There are references to "thoughts" and "letting loose." There is suggestion of conscious intention here. And there is the other thing about "singular focus and drive," which almost seems to indicate the Chantry's view - classification of demons based on "one" emotion/concept alone, rather than a bunch of them. Not long ago I remember reading up some stuff about a hunger demon or something being able to devour other spirits/demons in the Fade. Now I'm wondering whether these are related. It almost seems as if, if a simple demon is embodiment of one thought/emotion (like rage demon), then a complex (hence powerful I suppose) demon is embodiment of multiple thoughts "coalescing together." Kind of also brings to mind this.

[whykikyouwhy]

Reading the distinguished nuclear bear's post sparked some more tangential theories...specifically regarding the potential "scar" on the lyrium. That made me think of the sacrificial altars of cultures/peoples like the Aztecs, and how after years and years of offerings, the stone upon which they rest said offerings is stained deep and the stone itself is worn down.

What I've been trying to wrap my head around is the dwarven concept of "the Stone." To my knowledge, it's never fully explained - our understanding of it is hazy at best (or maybe just my understanding of it). Is it the earth itself - that deepest, darkest core? Is it lyrium, and the common vein of lyrium that may reside under all of the continents? Is it something that came down from the heavens? (which, given previous pondering on this thread, could be lyrium or rather the waters of the Fade)? Is it something insubstantial only, something that binds dwarves together - a cultural concept? - take for example, one of the Shaper's Life codex entries from DA:O:

"Before the darkspawn, the Stone held an empire--dozens of thaigs, each cavern a shade of dwarven pride, communities separate but united. They fell by degrees. Ruins crumbled into tombstones, a forgotten glory. But the Stone is a living history, and absence can reveal more than constant scrutiny does. As the Stone shifts, she chooses what remains buried and what must see the light. The shapers must return, must walk the lost way, so the children of the Stone can see what has been surrendered and what can be gained.

This is the sacrifice of the shaper.

--"The Lost Way," from The Shaper's Life"

So...the Shapers recorded everything with lyrium into the Memories, and while that may now be done upon paper, what if, in the time of the Primeval Thaig, that act of recording was done upon rock and earth itself. Like old hieroglyphs or cave wall paintings (though probably not so crude, given the architecture in the thaig). What if what we are seeing in the thaig, or the dwarven spirits in DA:O, etc are echoes - playback, really. Echoes that may have mild sentience. It's a common paranormal theory (again - nod to Ser Filament for getting my inner Ghost Hunter all a-tingle) - that some of the spectral interactions people encounter is just residual energy trapped in a constant loop. That's why haunted places have the same woman in white descending the stairs or what have you (while other hauntings may involve a sentient spirit that you can interact with).

I think there may be some spirits trapped in transition - trapped in the stone, in the lyrium, in golem skins, what have you, as Filament suggested, but some of what we have encountered are just echoes. To tie it back in to the sacrifice theme - if certain ceremonies are being conducted time and time again, they may color the stone (lower case or upper case stone, whichever) - changing it somehow. So that the core stone, the foundation, looks different, and, since lyrium is involved, will behave differently. Even with just a playback loop, add some magic to that, and over the decades or centuries, what happens? What strange concoction has been brewed, or what new entity has been formed? Does that create a sort of pocket shell, a little bubble, that can then be filled by a wandering spirit? (perhaps the profane or the ancient rock wraith) Or, as suggested, do souls/spirits collect and then manifest as something new? 

I suppose this was really less a tangetial theory and more me thinking out loud, after a fashion.

I think Filament is on to something though. But I think that since gods (and crying out to them) are in play, some sacrifices might be involved somehow.

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps the dwarves failed to make a super golem because the dynotherms were not connected (and the intracells were not up - pesky things, those intracells).

I'm digging your third idea (not to say the others don't have merit but the third jumped out at me). I wonder if the codex regarding the profanes could be linked. When the gods did not heed the cries of the people, when the people were suffering, hungry, etc, they in turn tried to recreate divine power in some way, to make their own salvation, hence the "feasting" upon the gods. I know I keep doubling back to the profanes, but I can't shake that there is something significant there.

There's a whole lot of hubris in the DA-verse.

[jamesp81]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Reading the distinguished nuclear bear's post sparked some more tangential theories...specifically regarding the potential "scar" on the lyrium. That made me think of the sacrificial altars of cultures/peoples like the Aztecs, and how after years and years of offerings, the stone upon which they rest said offerings is stained deep and the stone itself is worn down.

What I've been trying to wrap my head around is the dwarven concept of "the Stone." To my knowledge, it's never fully explained - our understanding of it is hazy at best (or maybe just my understanding of it). Is it the earth itself - that deepest, darkest core? Is it lyrium, and the common vein of lyrium that may reside under all of the continents? Is it something that came down from the heavens? (which, given previous pondering on this thread, could be lyrium or rather the waters of the Fade)? Is it something insubstantial only, something that binds dwarves together - a cultural concept? - take for example, one of the Shaper's Life codex entries from DA:O:

"Before the darkspawn, the Stone held an empire--dozens of thaigs, each cavern a shade of dwarven pride, communities separate but united. They fell by degrees. Ruins crumbled into tombstones, a forgotten glory. But the Stone is a living history, and absence can reveal more than constant scrutiny does. As the Stone shifts, she chooses what remains buried and what must see the light. The shapers must return, must walk the lost way, so the children of the Stone can see what has been surrendered and what can be gained.

This is the sacrifice of the shaper.

--"The Lost Way," from The Shaper's Life"

So...the Shapers recorded everything with lyrium into the Memories, and while that may now be done upon paper, what if, in the time of the Primeval Thaig, that act of recording was done upon rock and earth itself. Like old hieroglyphs or cave wall paintings (though probably not so crude, given the architecture in the thaig). What if what we are seeing in the thaig, or the dwarven spirits in DA:O, etc are echoes - playback, really. Echoes that may have mild sentience. It's a common paranormal theory (again - nod to Ser Filament for getting my inner Ghost Hunter all a-tingle) - that some of the spectral interactions people encounter is just residual energy trapped in a constant loop. That's why haunted places have the same woman in white descending the stairs or what have you (while other hauntings may involve a sentient spirit that you can interact with).

I think there may be some spirits trapped in transition - trapped in the stone, in the lyrium, in golem skins, what have you, as Filament suggested, but some of what we have encountered are just echoes. To tie it back in to the sacrifice theme - if certain ceremonies are being conducted time and time again, they may color the stone (lower case or upper case stone, whichever) - changing it somehow. So that the core stone, the foundation, looks different, and, since lyrium is involved, will behave differently. Even with just a playback loop, add some magic to that, and over the decades or centuries, what happens? What strange concoction has been brewed, or what new entity has been formed? Does that create a sort of pocket shell, a little bubble, that can then be filled by a wandering spirit? (perhaps the profane or the ancient rock wraith) Or, as suggested, do souls/spirits collect and then manifest as something new? 

I suppose this was really less a tangetial theory and more me thinking out loud, after a fashion.

I think Filament is on to something though. But I think that since gods (and crying out to them) are in play, some sacrifices might be involved somehow.

Allow me to add my own thinking out loud, which is somewhat tangential.

In DA, magic and religion are pretty closely intertwined.  Maybe the reason the dwarves have no mages is that they lost their magic.  Perhaps that happened when they stopped venerating The Stone and started venerating paragons.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Filament wrote...

When the dwarf is encased in lyrium, apparently their whole essence is 'trapped' in the lyrium. Hence Shale being Shayle of House Cadash, still retaining that identity despite the memories fading greatly over time.

Kind of makes one wonder whether what is trapped is not merely the spirit, but also thoughts, etc. What makes the person "him/her," the identity, personality, etc. I have no idea if a spirit could embody a whole person in this way.

Now this may seem like a bit of an off the wall tangent, but I've read before an idea about supposed hauntings where people would theorize that a great overflowing of emotion can leave a 'psychic scar' on an area and cause it to be haunted. Now, in reality I think that's nonsense, but in Thedas... the Fade doing so much to mimic human thoughts and emotions... it could be that when people feel a certain emotion very strongly or in great numbers, that leaves a mark on the Fade. Causing the formation of things like the Shah Wyrd, possibly. Maybe spirits don't spawn spontaneously, but as a product of these "marks" accreting more Fade material until they develop into a presence of their own (starting off as a simple wisp, maybe).

Nonsense in reality!! How can you?! What proof do you have!?

I can see what you're saying, but then again I can only acknowledge the possibility. I actually have great difficulty conceptualizing the Fade. I was in it, on multiple occassions, but I know everything can shift and change - formless ether. It just makes having ideas about equally "formless and etherial." But the codex on Shah Wyrd seems to indicate "thoughts" shaping in the form of demons, so there must be something to it.

It might also leave a mark on lyrium. In DAO you encounter all of those "forgotten" dwarf spirits, and "enraged" dwarf spirits, and some other titles like that. I don't imagine these to be complete souls, since they weren't literally encased in lyrium like golems are, but rather their dominating emotion near the time of their passing that left a "mark" on the Stone itself. Then these marks went on to manifest themselves as spirits of a similar primal emotional nature to the spirits of the Fade, but residing in the Stone rather than the Fade.

Yep, possible. But I forget. Where do we encounter these spirits in DAO? In the Deep Roads? Or was it in some DLC?

I also think we need to get a clearer idea on the Stone. I ask this because at the moment I don't know whether dwarves use it interchangeably with lyrium. The question is - how can Stone "retain these spirits?" Let me bring up one codex entry on Amgeforn here. Look at the one specifically on "Amgeforn the Foul:"
"We called it Malvernis. The Pestilent One. It devoured thaigs, turning our fairest work into a noxious waste. It consumed living warriors, turning their bodies to slime, and when its hunger was not abated, it consumed the bones of our ancestors.

Foulness came from its touch, poison and filth and desecration. It threatened the Stone itself. The Shapers bound it. Chained in lyrium stained with the blood of a hundred warriors. But within the orb, it hungered, it waited. We carried it here to the wasteland of the surface, where it can threaten nothing of value. The Stone will live. The Stone must live. We have sworn to defend it from the Foul One at any price."

Here is one reference to the Stone being "alive." In a real or metaphorical sense, I cannot say. This evil was devouring thaigs whole; it threatened the Stone. What do you suppose threatening the Stone would entail? Was it that those dwarves were afraid they'd lose the whole of their kind to it? Or is it that they were specifically worried about the Stone itself. The Nexus Golem's comments about "the Stone lives beneath Orlais" is another mystery. Does it not live anywhere else? Were the dwarves who trapped this evil thing afraid that it'd travel toward Orlais and "kill" the Stone there?

By the way, this is one more case where lyrium was used to trap/bind something. Stained with the blood of a hundred warriors? What is that? It is such a confusing codex entry.

I dunno, I like the idea of them melting down golems to add to their supply of lyrium and having the collective souls of those melted down golems giving their lyrium a vengeful sentience which became concentrated in the Idol.

You have an evil mind. Maybe you should be chained in lyrium.

The dwarves never seem to have created enough golems to make regaining that lyrium a worthwhile thing to do. Caridin built some golems until he developed a guilty conscience. The golems they created (of which we know about) gave them a brief reprieve, and then their kingdoms sunk back into doom, when they lost that art (all during the First Blight, apparently, and only for a few decades). So why would they want to regain all that lyrium - is there evidence that they're running short of lyrium? I can understand the idea of trying to create a "super" golem, however, with the fusion of a lot of souls, for the power that it might give. As a harvester apparently does.

The shard in Bartrand's house did create a boss-level Ethereal Golem... in addition to making the whole house haunted.

Ok, you think the shard created the golem? I think the spirit of a golem (not of a dwarf, if that's possible) was already inside it, and became unbound somehow. The rest of the haunted experience inside that house can be explained by a combination of other spirits (which we see, by the way) from the idol and the power of "that" lyrium.

I wasn't sure how to break up this quote to address it all properly, but what I said up there was a response to some stuff here as well... but I have some stuff to add more directly related to this part:

As far as the Primeval Thaig goes, it may be that the Stone, by some means, developed some sort of sentience. This seems reasonable given how Bartrand describes the idol, and given what it does to Meredith and to Bartrand's house and etc. I like the notion that this sentience arose from a collective of damned golem souls being melted down, but it could be something more like what I described earlier. With the dwarves of the Thaig being met with some sort of calamity, which caused them to cry out and curse the gods for the plight... I think this was mentioned in a codex entry about the Thaig. This could have left a great "scar" on the lyrium, maybe, which developed into the awful sentience it did. Or maybe it's something else entirely, like one of the Old Gods or Forgotten Ones or Elven deities being trapped in lyrium.

I can see the possiblity. Again I don't see why they'd try to regain lyrium that way, but, well, possible.

As far as Valdasine goes, since they were the greatest supplier of lyrium to the empire at the time, I suspect while they were mining, they stumbled upon the Primeval Thaig, considering all the lyrium it was infused with. Then the lyrium called to them and demanded worship, the same as with Bartrand and Varric, and that's why they closed their doors to the empire and eventually shared in the fate of the original inhabitants of the Primeval Thaig.

That would leave one question unanswered: Why no mention of the profanes then?

My own thoughts about Valdasine. I don't remember reading about it when I played DA2. Maybe I missed something. But from the codex entry that whykikyouwhy quoted, I have this to offer. The oddest thing is the single staff that was left there - apparently made of lyrium. Apparently nothing else was found. I think this is the biggest hint. They were selling lyrium, possibly making huge profits out of it, but one day they closed their doors and when it reopened (of its own accord?) only a staff was found left behind. Extremely odd.

Let's further try to relate this to something else. If it is true that house Valdesine kept most of the dwarven empire supplied with lyrium, then possibly they had quite a cache of it. And we're talking about pre-darkspawn era (according to codex). So, was there some event that consumed a great deal of lyrium, which House Valdesine might have had something to do with? Observe this codex entry:
"Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade, your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous."

What if all that hints towards the hand of some magister (considering the staff that was left there). Certainly House Valdesine seem to have the quantity of lyrium that was required for the job, and the timelines match. So, what if...

Just putting it out there...

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 30 août 2011 - 07:34 .

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Filament wrote...

As far as Valdasine goes, since they were the greatest supplier of lyrium to the empire at the time, I suspect while they were mining, they stumbled upon the Primeval Thaig, considering all the lyrium it was infused with. Then the lyrium called to them and demanded worship, the same as with Bartrand and Varric, and that's why they closed their doors to the empire and eventually shared in the fate of the original inhabitants of the Primeval Thaig.

That would leave one question unanswered: Why no mention of the profanes then?

My own thoughts about Valdasine. I don't remember reading about it when I played DA2. Maybe I missed something. But from the codex entry that whykikyouwhy quoted, I have this to offer. The oddest thing is the single staff that was left there - apparently made of lyrium. Apparently nothing else was found. I think this is the biggest hint. They were selling lyrium, possibly making huge profits out of it, but one day they closed their doors and when it reopened (of its own accord?) only a staff was found left behind. Extremely odd.

Let's further try to relate this to something else. If it is true that house Valdesine kept most of the dwarven empire supplied with lyrium, then possibly they had quite a cache of it. And we're talking about pre-darkspawn era (according to codex). So, was there some event that consumed a great deal of lyrium, which House Valdesine might have had something to do with? Observe this codex entry:
"Similarly, even when you send your mind into the Fade, your body remains behind. Only once has this barrier been overcome, and reputedly the spell required two-thirds of the lyrium in the Tevinter Imperium as well as the lifeblood of several hundred slaves. The results were utterly disastrous."

What if all that hints towards the hand of some magister (considering the staff that was left there). Certainly House Valdesine seem to have the quantity of lyrium that was required for the job, and the timelines match. So, what if...

Just putting it out there...

And so it all comes back to rotten Twinkies.

Potentially, we have a thaig of (potentially) several thaigs that may have been the source and supplier of large amounts of lyrium for the invasion of a mythical city/possible prison/lofty piece of real estate. We have a staff that is made of this lyrium and now in Hawke's possession (with the purchase and download of a DLC), and we have what looks to be a piece of another staff (the idol...which does have a broken off bit at the end that seems to be from a staff) - which in turn has some sort of song or sentient properties.

So to add to the chips thrown out on the table, what about this - what if there are at least 5 primeval thaigs, and each has a staff or some similar weapon/tool made of the red lyrium, and these tools were used in the grand blood-letting ritual that opened the portal to Rotten Twinkie City? (Although, I could see the possibility of the Primeval Thaig's idol bit as not being used for the invasion, as something got trapped within in, so it was locked up and abandoned because bad, vile things dwelled within.)

I'm trying to keep an open mind about all of these theories we're bouncing back and forth, but I keep seeing in my twisted brain an image of 5 or more magisters standing at various points in Thedas, concentrating their energies into the center of their pentagram-esque circle (pentagram for the 5, not necessarily for any RL demonic correlation). And from the center of these focused energies, from the blood of 1000's of slaves and mass amounts of lyrium, a door opens. And maybe a different group of (5) magisters went in. That's what comes up in my imagination, but we all know I have way too much fromage on the brain, so I can't be trusted.