532 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I doubt Bartrand is 80 years old.

8:48 Blessed is 52 years before the Dragon Age, and 83 years before the expedtion.

Though this does bring up a question of mine, which may mean Bartrand is 83 years old. The Ortan records say the last known name was 400 years ago, yet Orta recognizes her great-grandmother's name. So how the hell long can a dwarf live for?

Exactly. There's never been a direct answer from the devs or in-game how long dwarves live, but there's a few things like that which imply they live significantly longer than humans.

It's also addressed directly to the king who ordered it to be sealed, which means the scavenger's tale was recent.

It's addressed to a king. All it says is "Your Majesty." Actually, you know, perhaps we're discounting the most important factor... Bioware really sucks with timelines.

[TEWR]

Which I do admit is sad because timelines aren't that hard to keep track of.


At least not this early in the series.

[GavrielKay]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.

So, do we believe that the idol is dwarven made, or just that the dwarves believe anything worked with skill from stone or metal had to have been made by them?  For all we know ancient dwarves learned some of their skill from ancient elves.  And the idol we find isn't the same one anyway, if the other was in the scavenger's belongings.  They could be of different origins.

Anyway, I wouldn't say I'm convinced that the primeval Thaig is Arlathan, but I think there's a lot of evidence for it and it's a strong possibility.

The fact that a forest a long ways away is called Arlathan forest doesn't really mean anything.  It could well have been named by elves who made their way there long after Arlathan fell and just felt like honoring their ancient home.

I think it's easier to believe that someone else built that Thaig than that the dwarves have changed so much that Bartrand doesn't recognize anything.  The dwarves are presented as traditional and unchanging in the extreme.

I hope the writers do something interesting with it at least.  It would be lame if it only served as the source of the insane-making idol.

[TEWR]

I do know that the forest of Arlathan has a bunch of hidden dangers, as the Black Fox parted with his jerkin there in a "less than voluntary manner".


It could just be bandits, or it could mean that the ancient city was in fact there. Saying it was the center of the world doesn't mean it was actually at the center. It could just mean it was the most important and the most advanced elven city at the time.

[Sepewrath]

Rifneno wrote...
Yes,
it does mean something. It means that whatever this thaig was,
knowledge of it is long lost. Now we can assume it's something totally
new, with the completely undocumented and (unless you count Sandal, whom
most believe is a joke by the devs and the rest believe is Andraste or
the Maker or Commander Shepard or some ****) unforeshadowed mage
dwarves, or it's something that we know was lost. Occam's Razor.

So
how does this magic dwarf city go unnoticed? Remember the age; that
thing was around long before even the First Blight. Which means it
existed when the other dwarves had their vast Deep Roads network. Why
don't the dwarves or any other culture know anything about it? It's
hard to get to now because of the darkspawn, but not always. If it
connected via the the Deep Roads, it should've been a well known. It
would be like having a turnpike in New York that goes to a civilization
by the damn morlocks or something. And if it didn't connect to the Deep
Roads, where did it come from? An advanced civilization didn't just
materialize down there on its own.

No it doesn't mean anything, how is something just lost, the same way Elven history is just lost, the same way shapeshifting magic is a lost art, the same way, the same way how to make Golems was lost, same way information on where Stone Henge came from is lost to time. Things happen, since they didn't have computers and flash drives back in those days, if people died, their information went with them.

The person who mentioned Profanes could have been early Golems, that makes more since than it being Arlathan. You could also theorize that it was some kind of offshoot cult of Dwarf's that existed separately from the rest of them, driven insane by that idol or simply prehistoric Dwarves. Again more practical than it being Arlathan.

And you mentioning that dwarves having the Deep Roads and that's true, well for
Arlathan to be sunk below the Deep Roads, it would of had to go THROUGH the Deep Roads. I'm
pretty sure the Dwarves would have noticed a city fall on top of them
and that history would have been recorded. Even if every Dwarf in the area died, someone would of had to come along and say "Hey, the whole place is gone and that city that was up there, is now down there"

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm still of the opinion that profanes were people (dwarves? Elves? Humans?) who nibbled on the lyrium idol.

It would be interesting to determine what Bartrand was doing when he fed idol chunks to his servants. Making more profanes (well, trying to)? Trying to make some sort of mindless thrall? (Which might explain the crazed guards in his estate)

[Darius Vir]

Excellent post Rifneno.

I've always been a bit wary of the Primeval Thaig- Arlathan connection, but you make some great points that we have to consider.

Off the top of my head, my biggest reason for not thinking that PT is or was part of Arlathan is the timeline. My bad if I missed this point being brought up already, but after reading this thread I don't think I saw it precisely stated.

We know that the Primeval Thaig is old. No dates, just...really, really, old. I think we can know that Arlathan was sunk roughly 1300-2000 years ago, because it seems to be pretty clear that is was specifically Tevinter that destroyed it. Meaning that sometime in the 900 yearish interval between Tevinter's founding and the First Blight, they destroyed Arlathan.

Could the records be screwed up, majorly? Yeah, they could. But on this one I haven't seen enough to make me think that's the case here, imo.

As to the last stand at Sundermount, I actually also thought that was somewhat surprising the first time I heard it...given the distance between Kirkwall and Arlathan forest on the map. But considering elven civilization was supposed to be across Thedas, I figured that it was simply a (the) last outpost or rallying point of that civilization. Something like Masada after Jerusalem fell.

[GavrielKay]

Is there a reason why some folks think it is so much more unlikely that the Thaig is Arlathan than an ancient offshoot of the dwarves that left no records and had a building structure that left a modern dwarf completely gobsmacked?

I just don't see, given dwarven lore, how it is likely that there was a group of them living so differently from the rest.

It could turn out to be a city from an entirely different race of course. Or a group of intelligent darkspawn a-la Corypheus and the Architect.

But in a sea of guesses and unlikely possibilities I don't get why Arlathan seems so much more far-fetched to some people.

[Rifneno]

Sepewrath wrote...

No it doesn't mean anything, how is something just lost, the same way Elven history is just lost, the same way shapeshifting magic is a lost art, the same way, the same way how to make Golems was lost, same way information on where Stone Henge came from is lost to time. Things happen, since they didn't have computers and flash drives back in those days, if people died, their information went with them.

Examples based in fact tend to work better. BTW, do you know what the difference is between historical and prehistorical? The existence of written records. Written language has been around for nearly 6,000 years, keeping information recorded long before flash drives.

The person who mentioned Profanes could have been early Golems, that makes more since than it being Arlathan. You could also theorize that it was some kind of offshoot cult of Dwarf's that existed separately from the rest of them, driven insane by that idol or simply prehistoric Dwarves. Again more practical than it being Arlathan.

Anyone is free to believe what they like of course. But replying to 2 pages of careful analysis with "Nah. I dunno what it is." and then actually saying that the befuddled shrugging makes more "since" is levels of ridiculous that I couldn't begin to describe.

And you mentioning that dwarves having the Deep Roads and that's true, well for
Arlathan to be sunk below the Deep Roads, it would of had to go THROUGH the Deep Roads. I'm
pretty sure the Dwarves would have noticed a city fall on top of them
and that history would have been recorded. Even if every Dwarf in the area died, someone would of had to come along and say "Hey, the whole place is gone and that city that was up there, is now down there"

Amazing how fast you went from "they wouldn't know without laptops" to "no matter what, there would definitely be records of it if this happened" when it supports your claim rather than debunks it. But to answer the question, watch Fenris murder-fist someone by sticking his fist into their chest, without even breaking the skin, and crushing their heart. Magic is quite capable of moving a solid object through another solid object without destroying them. And he's just a broody escaped slave, what the Tevinters did in Kirkwall took the blood of hundreds of thousands of slaves and who knows how many supermages.

Darius Vir wrote...

Excellent post Rifneno.

I've always been a bit wary of the Primeval Thaig- Arlathan connection, but you make some great points that we have to consider.

Thank ye. I don't ask anyone to believe it unquestioningly, just actually counter some points before claiming it makes more sense that the Primeval Thaig was built by Protheans.

Off the top of my head, my biggest reason for not thinking that PT is or was part of Arlathan is the timeline. My bad if I missed this point being brought up already, but after reading this thread I don't think I saw it precisely stated.

We know that the Primeval Thaig is old. No dates, just...really, really, old. I think we can know that Arlathan was sunk roughly 1300-2000 years ago, because it seems to be pretty clear that is was specifically Tevinter that destroyed it. Meaning that sometime in the 900 yearish interval between Tevinter's founding and the First Blight, they destroyed Arlathan.

Well Legacy pretty much took what we thought we knew of the timeline and shot it in the face with a thanix cannon. Like you said, the Tevinter Imperium was supposedly founded about 2000 years ago. 2025 years to be exact, from the start of DAO/DA2. But we get evidence that that they locked away a tainted magister about 2,000 years ago. So a lot of the old dates are jawdroppingly inaccurate. Whether because of poor recordkeeping, retconning, or even Bioware just not bothering to doublecheck their work.

Though another note on that subject... in a twisted way, it'd be accurate to call Arlathan primeval. Primeval means from the earliest age and the founding of Arlathan is the earliest known event in the DA universe, taking place 8,430 years before the games begin. Not trying to that proves anything, I just find it interesting.

[Darius Vir]

Rifneno wrote...


Well Legacy pretty much took what we thought we knew of the timeline and shot it in the face with a thanix cannon. Like you said, the Tevinter Imperium was supposedly founded about 2000 years ago. 2025 years to be exact, from the start of DAO/DA2. But we get evidence that that they locked away a tainted magister about 2,000 years ago. So a lot of the old dates are jawdroppingly inaccurate. Whether because of poor recordkeeping, retconning, or even Bioware just not bothering to doublecheck their work.

Though another note on that subject... in a twisted way, it'd be accurate to call Arlathan primeval. Primeval means from the earliest age and the founding of Arlathan is the earliest known event in the DA universe, taking place 8,430 years before the games begin. Not trying to that proves anything, I just find it interesting.

Ok, this is the part that I don't get.   

I remember people discussing the 2000 year date even before Legacy came out.  Bringing up how it screwed with the timeline and such.  But....when in Legacy did we actually hear that that Corypheus was locked away for literally 2,000 years?  I remember hearing that number from Larius, referring to how long the magic was supposed to last (or something like this...ugh, memory too hazy).  

In terms of dates, all I can recall from Legacy is that Corypheus was found sometime directly after the First Blight, observed and interrogated (a big FAIL, apparently), then locked away.  I don't remember hearing anything that contradicted the numbers/timeline we had before Legacy.

I'm not even necessarily arguing this point.  Because I definitely could have missed something.  If you could point me to where in Legacy it states they found Cory 2000 years ago, I honestly would appreciate it. 

[Morroian]

The 2000 year thing I think is careless wording, not wrong. What I think the dialogue from Larius meant was that Cory would be held for 2000 years. Because there's also a reference to Cory being imprisoned for around 1000 years which is correct.

As for the timing of Arlathan and the Primeval Thaig, Arlathan was sunk before the first blight but the buildings could still be 1000s of years old from the time Arlathan was founded, despite being underground. 

Modifié par Morroian, 05 août 2011 - 02:19 .

[TJPags]

I like this idea.

I like it a lot.

It would make some sense out of that place, which until now has been just one more in a series of things about DA2 which don't seem to make any sense.

I applaud your research and the time you put into this.

I really like this idea.

[Nauks]

A VERY interesting read, solid speculation as all hell.
Things like this just breathe a whole new life into the thing.

Modifié par Nauks, 05 août 2011 - 02:56 .

[Sepewrath]

@Rifneno

Either you have no sense of humor or your grasping at straws, I hope its the latter, because clearly the flash drive thing is a joke. And I could right 50 pages detailing with circumstantial evidence why god is flying spaghetti monster, but being well thought out doesn't make it true. Yeah you tried to prove your point much better than they did, but theirs is still far more believable than yours. And you cant use Fenris as an example, there is a huge difference between sticking a hand in someone's chest and dropping a giant city without so much as moving a rock out of place. If Fenris could at least walk through a wall, maybe we could talk, but Fenris is not helping your point.

GavrielKay wrote...

Is there a reason why some folks think
it is so much more unlikely that the Thaig is Arlathan than an ancient
offshoot of the dwarves that left no records and had a building
structure that left a modern dwarf completely gobsmacked?

I just don't see, given dwarven lore, how it is likely that there was a group of them living so differently from the rest.

It
could turn out to be a city from an entirely different race of course.
Or a group of intelligent darkspawn a-la Corypheus and the Architect.

But
in a sea of guesses and unlikely possibilities I don't get why Arlathan
seems so much more far-fetched to some people.

Well the Dwarves didn't pop out of the ground and start building statues of paragons, the society like any one would develop over time. Think of it like pre historic humans, hypothesis on how they lived are based on guess work and modern technology. The information that exist now, did not exist thousands of years ago. Everyone grew up on "caveman" and such, but if you discovered this stuff for the first time in history tomorrow, it would be like walking into a whole different universe for you.

There is a huge difference between society now and society hundreds of years ago, a gap of thousands of years would be totally alien. Its far more believeable that a society grew and changed over time vs someone sinking one city through another.

[GavrielKay]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well the Dwarves didn't pop out of the ground and start building statues of paragons, the society like any one would develop over time. Think of it like pre historic humans, hypothesis on how they lived are based on guess work and modern technology. The information that exist now, did not exist thousands of years ago. Everyone grew up on "caveman" and such, but if you discovered this stuff for the first time in history tomorrow, it would be like walking into a whole different universe for you.

There is a huge difference between society now and society hundreds of years ago, a gap of thousands of years would be totally alien. Its far more believeable that a society grew and changed over time vs someone sinking one city through another.

But this wasn't a prmiitive place.  It didn't appear at all to be built by a society just figuring out how to build cities.  And given the dwarves have records going back to their first Thaigs, even had it been primitive, a modern dwarf should recognize something about it.  Humans can look at cave drawings and see the beginnings of human understanding of the world around them, despite it being primitve.

So for Bartrand to be completely amazed by it makes me think it is more alien than primitive.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Sepewrath wrote...

And you mentioning that dwarves having the Deep Roads and that's true, well for
Arlathan to be sunk below the Deep Roads, it would of had to go THROUGH the Deep Roads. I'm
pretty sure the Dwarves would have noticed a city fall on top of them
and that history would have been recorded. Even if every Dwarf in the area died, someone would of had to come along and say "Hey, the whole place is gone and that city that was up there, is now down there"

Yes, I'm as uncertain as you about Arlathan being the Primeval Thaig, even though the OP makes some compelling cases.

The issue to me is you're asking the hows of it. How did place A end up in place B? How did it miss everything else in between during its transit? And so on. It is supposed to be magic - requiring a bit of a suspension of disbelief. It supposedly follows some laws that even the inhabitants of Thedas hardly seem to understand, if at all. I think we needn't worry too much about that, at least not yet. What we can analyze is just the evidence we find in the Primeval Thaig, which could indicate that the thaig is rather odd. Odd to the extent of it being of a different culture altogether or of a dwarven culture long forgotten. I think it is the interpretations of facts and findings of the OP that one can refute or provide alternate explanations for.

[MichaelFinnegan]

GavrielKay wrote...

But this wasn't a prmiitive place.

I believe it is not unreasonable to think that a society can't go back in terms of technology or knowledge. Unlikely, yes, but not impossible.

It didn't appear at all to be built by a society just figuring out how to build cities.  And given the dwarves have records going back to their first Thaigs, even had it been primitive, a modern dwarf should recognize something about it.  Humans can look at cave drawings and see the beginnings of human understanding of the world around them, despite it being primitve.

So for Bartrand to be completely amazed by it makes me think it is more alien than primitive.

Let's look at it this way. Is it even possible for dwarves to have so completely wiped all records of their ancient civilization? The sealing of the Primeval Thaigs? Yes. The wiping out of all the records? Yes. Their earlier religious inclinations? Difficult, but not impossible. Losing their ability to do magic? Unlikely, unless we assume it is even a type of magic that we know of - I mean one requiring a connection to the Fade. The most difficult aspect I'd assume would be to actually wipe the slate clean from the minds of all dwarves - assuming they even knew about one another. People talk and legends grow. So, unless there was some kind of memory cleanse, I'd almost say it was extremely improbable.

Those are the kind of odds that any theory that the Primeval Thaig is an ancient dwarven civilization would have to go up against. So perhaps it is simpler to look at the thaig as being a sunken elven city, rather than a dwarven one.

[Macropodmum]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

@Rifneno X- History repeats itself, so precognitive or scrying powers aside, the idol may have been an effigy of something that happened in the past that then happened again with Meredith. The idol may be purposely crafted to depict what transpired - some type of corrupting power that requires submission of the victim then results in madness. Of course, the idol may be a prison for an entity, much like Flemeth's amulet-of-transport-to-the-mountains.

Lol. maybe the idol resented Meredith turning it into a sword and decided to turn her back into an idol?

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

The primeval Thaig being Arlathan is an interesting theory ~ I always kind of imagined a great elven city as being more elegant and organic like Rivendell in LoTR though

Well I imagine it looked quite a bit better before an army of evil wizards used an ocean of tortured slave blood to make the ground swallow it, the desperate and terrified people still surrounded by the tainted and maddening lyrium that damned them, and the thousands of years of disrepair from being lost. ... Poor elves.  

I'm not saying that you are wrong based on that, in fact you could well be on to something (especially since the wiki points at it being made by magical means).  I accept that over the years it would have become run down but then so are the ruins in the Brecillian forest (more in line with my idea of elven building), but I was more thinking architecture wise.  I would expect elven architecture to be graceful i.e arches and spires, domes and lots of windows so that the outside came inside.  The primeval thaig on the other hand looks, umm...blocky, for want of a better word, and it looks like it was built under the ground to be underground, not like a topside city sunk there...it will be interesting to see at any rate.

Modifié par Macropodmum, 05 août 2011 - 10:06 .

[Rifneno]

Darius Vir wrote...

Ok, this is the part that I don't get.   

I remember people discussing the 2000 year date even before Legacy came out.  Bringing up how it screwed with the timeline and such.  But....when in Legacy did we actually hear that that Corypheus was locked away for literally 2,000 years?  I remember hearing that number from Larius, referring to how long the magic was supposed to last (or something like this...ugh, memory too hazy).

Hmm. I don't know to be honest. Don't really want to replay the whole thing at the moment...

One thing I don't get though is why he doesn't seem to remember what happened after coming back from Oil City. He talks about getting there, getting infected, and then the imprisonment. There is a giant time gap there if he was captured after the First Blight. That Blight lasted 200 years, and who knows how long it took after the emergence of the darkspawn before it began. I can definitely see the Oil City disaster having been 2,000 years ago. I don't think we were ever given a date on that, despite some wiki editors who apparently thought a full scale Blight, archdemon included, popped up within a year of the magisters becoming tainted.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The issue to me is you're asking the hows of it. How did place A end up in place B? How did it miss everything else in between during its transit? And so on. It is supposed to be magic - requiring a bit of a suspension of disbelief.

Indeed. I just wish I could think of something else getting imprisoned deep underground... Ahh well.

I think it is the interpretations of facts and findings of the OP that one can refute or provide alternate explanations for.

Of course, there are alternative explanations for everything I listed... individually. It's not a case of a single smoking gun, it's about many little things coming together. When you look at it as a whole, especially considering it's a written work which lessens the chance of coincidences... well, suffice to say I thought the entire Arlathan story was bull myself until recently.

Macropodmum wrote...

I'm not saying that you are wrong based on that, in fact you could well be on to something (especially since the wiki points at it being made by magical means).  I accept that over the years it would have become run down but then so are the ruins in the Brecillian forest (more in line with my idea of elven building), but I was more thinking architecture wise.  I would expect elven architecture to be graceful i.e arches and spires, domes and lots of windows so that the outside came inside.  The primeval thaig on the other hand looks, umm...blocky, for want of a better word, and it looks like it was built under the ground to be underground, not like a topside city sunk there...it will be interesting to see at any rate.

Ahh. Yeah, Whykikyouwhy mentioned the same thing in another thread. I think the problem is that typical elven architecture would be a dead giveaway. There'd never be any mystery. Fortunately, they had the crutch of recycled zones and textures. All hail copy and paste!

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

I'm not saying that you are wrong based on that, in fact you could well be on to something (especially since the wiki points at it being made by magical means).  I accept that over the years it would have become run down but then so are the ruins in the Brecillian forest (more in line with my idea of elven building), but I was more thinking architecture wise.  I would expect elven architecture to be graceful i.e arches and spires, domes and lots of windows so that the outside came inside.  The primeval thaig on the other hand looks, umm...blocky, for want of a better word, and it looks like it was built under the ground to be underground, not like a topside city sunk there...it will be interesting to see at any rate.

Ahh. Yeah, Whykikyouwhy mentioned the same thing in another thread. I think the problem is that typical elven architecture would be a dead giveaway. There'd never be any mystery. Fortunately, they had the crutch of recycled zones and textures. All hail copy and paste!

Lol, there is that!

[Darius Vir]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I don't know to be honest. Don't really want to replay the whole thing at the moment...

One thing I don't get though is why he doesn't seem to remember what happened after coming back from Oil City. He talks about getting there, getting infected, and then the imprisonment. There is a giant time gap there if he was captured after the First Blight. That Blight lasted 200 years, and who knows how long it took after the emergence of the darkspawn before it began. I can definitely see the Oil City disaster having been 2,000 years ago. I don't think we were ever given a date on that, despite some wiki editors who apparently thought a full scale Blight, archdemon included, popped up within a year of the magisters becoming tainted.

Yep.  I've wondered this too.

On this one, it doesn't even matter if the dates are messed up, right?  Again, assuming this was after the First Blight..but honestly, even DURING the Blight still seems weird.

Because he has absolutely no clue what a darkspawn is.  If Hawke specifically brings it up, he doesn't sell it.   He doesn't know that an archdemon that is supposed to be Dumat is (was) running wild. 

Everything he says gives the indication that he believes he just got back from the Black City. 

[aries1001]

Interesting read, and well presented...

As for the Arlathan elves having access to blood magic, Merril says something in DA2 at the Dalish camp at Sundermount, something like 'well, if you would respect our people's old ways' or something like that. As for Arlathan being sunk through the Deep Roads, I think the whole idea is that the Deep Roads didn't exist? when the Tevinter Magisters sunk Arlathan into the ground...

[David Gaider]

I have two things to say:

1) Excellent, well thought-out post. Nice conjecture. I like conjecture.

2) The Primeval Thaig, and what it signfies, will have importance in the future. Just FYI.

3) There's something you need to...

Oh, wait. Two things. Right! I'll stop there.

[Ghost1041]

My head just exploded from reading this thread.

Modifié par Ghost1041, 05 août 2011 - 08:36 .