532 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Well the profane feed on lyrium which is something related to the fade.
And demon from the fade try to reach the mortal world by using living host.
I don't believe it's a coincidence , even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

Anyway i'm pretty sure we're gonna find out that the templars /mages mess is the least of thedas problems

Modifié par Reznore57, 06 août 2011 - 09:39 .

[Drz]

Rifneno wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I meant it'd be a reasonable excuse for Arlathan to have half-dwarven architecture if the rest of the game reused models like crazy.

The Primeval Thaig did not look that way accidentally. That was dwarven architecture. Try to second-guess our use of resources if you will, but that's the path to madness. I suggest taking it at face value.

Ahh, okay. It was just a thought. So, it is dwarven architecture you say... Interesting. Well that rules out (or at least greatly diminishes the chances of) another line of thought: that it might be an entirely new race we haven't been introduced to. Someone pointed me to your interview at PAX and the line about other races. Would explain the statues of... something that are all around the thaig.

Some "beyond Thedas" too... I guess we are going to get to see the other side of that Eluvian someday.

Oh, before anyone says dwarven architecture automatically rules out Arlathan, remember Vigil's Keep probably qualifies as such too. Perhaps for the same reason: nobody can build a fortress as secure as a dwarf. Maybe the ancient elves hired some dwarves to reinforce their beloved home as they were under Tevinter onslaught.

Or maybe the Dwarves and Elves we're good allies before Tevinter Imperium kinda forced some Dwarves to backstab their own kind and ensure they wouldn't do anything with the Elves anymore? We learn in Witch Hunt DLC that Elves and Dwarves used to be friends.

[Fallstar]

I don't think the primeval thaig was Arlathan, 'just' a really old civilisation of dwarven mages.

[TEWR]

I see discussion on the Profane has come up.


The Profane are probably no more than just ancient Dwarves who have gone mad from their lyrium consumption. They worshipped it apparently, and the current Dwarves call blue lyrium the sacred gift from the Stone.

what's curious though is that the Profane wield magic.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Reznore57 wrote...

Well the profane feed on lyrium which is something related to the fade.
And demon from the fade try to reach the mortal world by using living host.
I don't believe it's a coincidence ,

On the other hand, it may just be coincidence. Do demons actually differentiate the hosts? Probably not. They just seem to feed on the emotion that is most rampant - in this case hunger for that special variety of lyrium.

even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

But, in the case of this type of lyrium, it wasn't just that singing, which the dwarves normally hear when they mine. The idol was demanding to be worshiped, if memory serves me right. I don't know if darkspawn also hear the same thing, though.

I now wonder. Are darkspawn also cut off from the Fade, like dwarves? In which case, the "singing" that both hear could actually be coming from within Thedas - no connection to the Fade required.

Anyway i'm pretty sure we're gonna find out that the templars /mages mess is the least of thedas problems

I hope so, too.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see discussion on the Profane has come up.


The Profane are probably no more than just ancient Dwarves who have gone mad from their lyrium consumption. They worshipped it apparently, and the current Dwarves call blue lyrium the sacred gift from the Stone.

what's curious though is that the Profane wield magic.

Definitely something odd going on. Could be that if the profane can weild magic then they are connected to the Fade. And, if profanes were once dwarves, does it mean they somehow regained that connection? Or perhaps, looked at it another way, were the dwarves once connected to the Fade, and now have lost that connection?

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 06 août 2011 - 02:51 .

[phaonica]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

But, in the case of this type of lyrium, it wasn't just that singing, which the dwarves normally hear when they mine. The idol was demanding to be worshiped, if memory serves me right. I don't know if darkspawn also hear the same thing, though.

I now wonder. Are darkspawn also cut off from the Fade, like dwarves? In which case, the "singing" that both hear could actually be coming from within Thedas - no connection to the Fade required.

What's with all the singing in this game? Wasn't Andraste's singing what first captured the attention of the Maker? Everything in this game sings.

[Herr Uhl]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Profane are probably no more than just ancient Dwarves who have gone mad from their lyrium consumption. They worshipped it apparently, and the current Dwarves call blue lyrium the sacred gift from the Stone.

what's curious though is that the Profane wield magic.

Definitely something odd going on. Could be that if the profane can weild magic then they are connected to the Fade. And, if profanes were once dwarves, does it mean they somehow regained that connection? Or perhaps, looked at it another way, were the dwarves once connected to the Fade, and now have lost that connection?

There are other sources of magic than a connection to the fade. We have darkspawn that use the taint, for example and as far as I've gathered lyrium is condensed fade in the physical world. Hence you could maybe use lyrium and only lyrium in order to cast magic and develop a school around that.

Something like a runecaster maybe?

[whykikyouwhy]

phaonica wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

But, in the case of this type of lyrium, it wasn't just that singing, which the dwarves normally hear when they mine. The idol was demanding to be worshiped, if memory serves me right. I don't know if darkspawn also hear the same thing, though.

I now wonder. Are darkspawn also cut off from the Fade, like dwarves? In which case, the "singing" that both hear could actually be coming from within Thedas - no connection to the Fade required.

What's with all the singing in this game? Wasn't Andraste's singing what first captured the attention of the Maker? Everything in this game sings.

Singing has long been a vehicle for power - it sways the soul after all. Well, really, music does. So singing may just be a form of spellcasting - whether actual spells/magics, or simply that which touches upon the soul and evokes an emotion/reaction.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Herr Uhl wrote...

There are other sources of magic than a connection to the fade. We have darkspawn that use the taint, for example and as far as I've gathered lyrium is condensed fade in the physical world. Hence you could maybe use lyrium and only lyrium in order to cast magic and develop a school around that.

Something like a runecaster maybe?

You could be right. But the fact that a demon had possessed one of the profanes makes me think that the Fade is involved. You may be implying Sandal, and yes his case may be somewhat unique, a rune-casting mage, as you put it.

About darkspawn magic. I think something crossed over from the Fade or beyond it when the corruption was brought back to Thedas. It still has an element of the Fade involved, but it is not just from the Fade anymore. I think.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

phaonica wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

But, in the case of this type of lyrium, it wasn't just that singing, which the dwarves normally hear when they mine. The idol was demanding to be worshiped, if memory serves me right. I don't know if darkspawn also hear the same thing, though.

I now wonder. Are darkspawn also cut off from the Fade, like dwarves? In which case, the "singing" that both hear could actually be coming from within Thedas - no connection to the Fade required.

What's with all the singing in this game? Wasn't Andraste's singing what first captured the attention of the Maker? Everything in this game sings.

Singing has long been a vehicle for power - it sways the soul after all. Well, really, music does. So singing may just be a form of spellcasting - whether actual spells/magics, or simply that which touches upon the soul and evokes an emotion/reaction.

Singing could be one form of mind control. It certainly looks that way with the darkspawn, Bartrand, and even  Meredith. Somwhat like the Sirens from Greek mythology.

EDIT: Again, fixing text formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 06 août 2011 - 03:59 .

[Reznore57]

As i said i think thedas /the fade were one and some tragedy divided it pretty much like seperated the soul and body.
Looking back on the idol , two people holding each other.Red lyrium , blood and magic?
Why the elves needed the Eluvian , the human thegolden city , and  what happended to the dwarves.

Modifié par Reznore57, 06 août 2011 - 04:16 .

[Matriach]

Or maybe the Dwarves and Elves we're good allies before Tevinter Imperium kinda forced some Dwarves to backstab their own kind and ensure they wouldn't do anything with the Elves anymore? We learn in Witch Hunt DLC that Elves and Dwarves used to be friends.

Maybe...
This sounds stupid, but remember that elven lore about dread wolf? That creator and forgotten ones part where they were trapped in heaven/abyss(i forget what exactly is it...was it void/abyss? or perhaps both of them are wrong? lol). Maybe they meant that the creator are actually elves themselves and trapped in Arlathan or possibly that black city in the fade...and the forgotten ones are those dwarves that lives in primeval thaig?

It's an elven lore, but perhaps the lore itself was misguided by the elven. Maybe the creators are actually elven that lives up there in elven hierarchy/posses mighty power that holds every knowledge of Arlathan. The dalish elves that we know right now are probably those elves that tried to save them from the fade and thus they created a story. The elves/creators that were trapped were so revered that then people started to call them creators..and create the lore.

As for the forgotten ones, they're the beings (perhaps dwarf) that lives in primeval thaig. Maybe both dwarf and the elf fought century ago (this might explain why the tevinter mages allied themselves with the dwarf, because dwarf were fighting elves too) and then both of them represent themselves as the forgotten ones and the creators that is in the lore.

As for the dread wolf...I was thinking that he might be the offspring of dwarf & elves, but I remembered that the racial traits doesn't passed onto the offspring.

...damn, now that I read it again..this actually sounds pretty stupid.

[TEWR]

But, in the case of this type of lyrium, it wasn't just that singing, which the dwarves normally hear when they mine. The idol was demanding to be worshiped, if memory serves me right. I don't know if darkspawn also hear the same thing, though.

I now wonder. Are darkspawn also cut off from the Fade, like dwarves? In which case, the "singing" that both hear could actually be coming from within Thedas - no connection to the Fade required.

I know that in Broken Circle after the Sloth Demon sends you to the Fade you fight Darkspawn in a section there. Not to mention the Mother sent the First to the Fade so he could hear the song again, which indicates that prior to becoming a Disciple Darkspawn do have a connection to the Fade.

[Rifneno]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Although I might be mistaken, but I think the thing of great import is actually the kind of lyrium that is found there. And how the profanes were actually existing feeding on them.

There's a signpost in Amgarrak saying that the lyrium in the wells is "not for personal consumption."  Not sure how that figures into things...

Satyricon331 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
The Primeval Thaig did not look that way accidentally. That was dwarven architecture.

Oh wow, it took a whole hour.

Come to think of it, the Profane's Codex entry discussion of how they decided to feast on their gods just refers to their red lyrium consumption, as the Idol is red lyrium. Also, the "prf" for the loot would be "Profane." And since the counterparts to the elven gods were "The Forgotten Ones," I'm wondering if the Profane, describing themselves as "forgotten," would have worshipped them - suggesting they weren't elves; (proto) dwarves would be the obvious possibility (especially now that we know it's dwarven architecture). It might be enough that their pantheons are linked to explain the presence of seemingly elven artifacts in the Primeval Thaig - the two civilizations might have had contact.

I remember a thread before that linked blood magic to red lyrium, which I thought sounded plausible. It'd be consistent with the dark picture we have of the Forgotten Ones, although I can't remember the details. In any case, I'm skeptical that the elves hiring dwarves to make fortifications for Arlathan would explain the Thaig's appearance since it wouldn't explain the absence of elven architecture.

1) I thought the "feasted upon the gods" thing was a given.
2) How do you figure that means they weren't elves? The Forgotten Ones are just the evil side of the elven pantheon.
3) Might? You think in all those centuries the two races never met? The wiki's timeline places the first elven-dwarven contact at 3400 years before Tevinter was founded.
4) I'm assuming you mention that because you saw someone say that's the only possible explanation, not an off-the-top-of-my-head example of the many, many explanations that could explain it?

Reznore57 wrote...

Well the profane feed on lyrium which is something related to the fade.
And demon from the fade try to reach the mortal world by using living host.
I don't believe it's a coincidence , even darkspawn are driven by their Gods who "sing" just like Lyrium.Dwarves seems to go mad with red lyrium faster than human (bartrand :varric) and the dwarves are the ones who don't have access to the fade anymore....

Hmm.  I never realized that...  the only people that idol made go crazy were dwarves and Meredith.  Even when it's warping Varric the whole rest of the party is unaffected.  Wouldn't it be hilarious if we found out that Meredith really was just that crazy and the only thing she got from the idol was superpowers?

DuskWarden wrote...

I don't think the primeval thaig was Arlathan, 'just' a really old civilisation of dwarven mages.

Okay?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Profane are probably no more than just ancient Dwarves who have gone mad from their lyrium consumption. They worshipped it apparently, and the current Dwarves call blue lyrium the sacred gift from the Stone.

what's curious though is that the Profane wield magic.

So do Genlocks. Wrap your mind around that. I know I can't.

There's lots of regular lyrium in the PT as well. I don't know if the blue crystals are lyrium, but there's definitely tons of it in some of the ceilings. It's that iridescent material up there. The red lyrium, on the other hand, only seems to appear in root-like formations.

[TEWR]

Well Genlocks use the taint to wield magic. And if the Primeval Thaig's Dwarf mages were exposed to the taint of the Black City when the red lyrium thinned the Veil, then that could've made broodmothers who churned out Genlocks.

you know, it's possible that the Primeval Thaig was just a cult of Dwarves that existed a long time ago, and some dwarves didn't want to be a part of it anymore so they broke away and tried to forget about what happened.

I dunno.

I'm curious as to what the questionable things Kal-Sharok has had to do to survive actually entails. It could be something simple as "we ceased to be traditionalists" or they could be cannibals. I also wonder what their relations are like between Orzammar and if Orzammar knows what they've had to do.

And if Kal-Sharok made a new thaig outside of their city that has access to the surface. Otherwise I have no clue how Renvil Harrowmont is getting there.

[Ghost1041]

Mr Ethereal Writer on your question about Kal-Sharok's relationship with Orzammar. If you play the noble origin you hear your father talking to nobles about turning their backs on Kal-sharok over a "political technicality." His answer was denying traditions is not a political technicality. Their assembly will respect the rule of Orzammar, or rot and die alone surrounded by enemies.

I am sure they have had to resort to cannibalism and other means to survive. They might also be eating lyrium and become new profane. Who knows what they are up to surrounded and cut off. They do hate Orzammar for sealing off their gates and leaving them for dead.

[Satyricon331]

Rifneno wrote...
1) I thought the "feasted upon the gods" thing was a given.
2) How do you figure that means they weren't elves? The Forgotten Ones are just the evil side of the elven pantheon.
3) Might? You think in all those centuries the two races never met? The wiki's timeline places the first elven-dwarven contact at 3400 years before Tevinter was founded.
4) I'm assuming you mention that because you saw someone say that's the only possible explanation, not an off-the-top-of-my-head example of the many, many explanations that could explain it?

1) I'm not sure what you're saying here.  Their consumption of red lyrium would have been what their consumption of their gods involved; it's not clear to me why you find your point (1) here an issue?

2) The Forgotten Ones hated elves, which suggests their worshippers were not elves, since at first blush the two wouldn't want each other.  It's possible there were elves who worshipped them anyway, but it seems less likely.  (edit: It also seems to problematize the reading that the Profane's crying out for justice was directed towards their gods.  Then there's the question why the only extant survivors of the sinking of Arlathan would be worshippers of the dark pantheon rather than the standard elven pantheon, but this issue isn't unexplainable, of course.)

3) I don't see how that observation is a reaction to my remark, or for that matter assists your position?  In explaining the presence of the 2 or 3 elven artifacts in the Thaig, it's not a given that the elves would have had contact with the Thaig residents, even given their contact with the dwarves.  If the Thaig is Arlathan, it's easy to see why they would be there, although if so then there might be far too few such artifacts; if it isn't, it bears some consideration, which was all I was offering. 

4) I'm not sure what you mean by "that"?

In any case, I don't see the need for the prickly tone.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 06 août 2011 - 07:08 .

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I meant it'd be a reasonable excuse for Arlathan to have half-dwarven architecture if the rest of the game reused models like crazy.

The Primeval Thaig did not look that way accidentally. That was dwarven architecture. Try to second-guess our use of resources if you will, but that's the path to madness. I suggest taking it at face value.

Wasn't a lot of the architecture in Kirkwall built by the Dwarves during the Imperium's rule? Perhaps its possible that the Arlathan Elves had similar associations with the Dwarves during the pre-Tevinter days? According to Dalish lore all the elves had the power of magic so trade with the dwarves for lyrium if nothing else isn't unreasonable.

Also a little off topic but its bugging me. I remember it said in Origins that in the old days the Tevinters called the dwarves "Dweomer", yet Corypheus refers to them as dwarves. What's up with that? A forgotten detail or just something to spice up the description for the Dweomer Rune?

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 06 août 2011 - 07:37 .

[TEWR]

Ghost1041 wrote...

Mr Ethereal Writer on your question about Kal-Sharok's relationship with Orzammar. If you play the noble origin you hear your father talking to nobles about turning their backs on Kal-sharok over a "political technicality." His answer was denying traditions is not a political technicality. Their assembly will respect the rule of Orzammar, or rot and die alone surrounded by enemies.

I am sure they have had to resort to cannibalism and other means to survive. They might also be eating lyrium and become new profane. Who knows what they are up to surrounded and cut off. They do hate Orzammar for sealing off their gates and leaving them for dead.

Yea I haven't played the DN for quite some time, but I've been rewatching the origin on youtube repeatedly for the last half hour. What's the "political technicality" the nobles are talking about? Abandoning Kal-Sharok long ago?

I'm guessing Endrin has decided to have no association with Kal-Sharok because their ancestors decided that they needed to abandon them long ago.

As for the questionable things, I too am wondering if they're eating lyrium. But they're probably surrounded by blue lyrium instead of red. What if by eating it they became mages again?

[WhiteKnyght]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ghost1041 wrote...

Mr Ethereal Writer on your question about Kal-Sharok's relationship with Orzammar. If you play the noble origin you hear your father talking to nobles about turning their backs on Kal-sharok over a "political technicality." His answer was denying traditions is not a political technicality. Their assembly will respect the rule of Orzammar, or rot and die alone surrounded by enemies.

I am sure they have had to resort to cannibalism and other means to survive. They might also be eating lyrium and become new profane. Who knows what they are up to surrounded and cut off. They do hate Orzammar for sealing off their gates and leaving them for dead.

Yea I haven't played the DN for quite some time, but I've been rewatching the origin on youtube repeatedly for the last half hour. What's the "political technicality" the nobles are talking about? Abandoning Kal-Sharok long ago?

I'm guessing Endrin has decided to have no association with Kal-Sharok because their ancestors decided that they needed to abandon them long ago.

As for the questionable things, I too am wondering if they're eating lyrium. But they're probably surrounded by blue lyrium instead of red. What if by eating it they became mages again?

Considering how messed up a dwarf can become just by breathing lyrium. Eating it would kill them.

I would guess that they've turned to cannibalism and incest to survive. Or perhaps they just decided to screw the dwarves' beloved caste system and married whoever they want.

[WhiteKnyght]

Filament wrote...

I doubt Kal Sharok is profane... that guy related to Harrowmont in DA2 is headed to Kal Sharok, I take it Orzammar has some kind of idea of how Kal Sharok is faring, at least enough to know they could seek refuge there.

In fact you receive a letter from him, from Kal Sharok, don't you?

Actually I think he's in Rivain when he sends the letter and mentions Kal Sharok.

[TEWR]

I feel like Origins gave an incredibly vague idea of what their relations were like.


As for Renvil, I get the feeling that he'll be killed by them if he tells them about Bhelen. Kal-Sharok hates Orzammar for being so stuck on traditionalism, and Bhelen is not a traditionalist.

[TEWR]

I..... what?