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[PantheraOnca]

Satyricon331 wrote...



Come to think of it, the Profane's Codex entry discussion of how they decided to feast on their gods just refers to their red lyrium consumption, as the Idol is red lyrium. 

I think that the "eating of the gods" is not the same as the profane's eating of lyrium. It may be that the diety-consumption gave the ghost/things that would turn in to profane the proclivity for eating (red) lyrium.

Basically, saying that the "gods" = lyrium is convenient, but may also be a trap to lead you in the wrong direction.

[Kuzzzzco1]

Really fascinating theory, Rifneno. I'm very impressed with the time and insight devoted to it, and even if it turns out to be wrong, it was a wonderful idea.

To add at least something to the speculation melting pot, Merrill states that humans learned blood magic from the Arlathan elves, for whom it was a casual and very natural practice. Archon Thalsian, the first magister of the Tevinter humans, claimed to have discovered blood magic from discussions with the Old God Dumat, which could have been a politically dextrous way to give credit to one's own civilization's deities as opposed to the less than thrilling, "Those pointy-eared dorks over yonder taught us this super cool new empire-building thing!" This redirects power to Thalsian, both magical and social, as he becomes viewed as the endowed prophet of the gods rather than just a clever networker.

I don't know especially how this may contribute, but the Imperium actively enslaved elves as they backpedaled away when they started dropping like flies from disease, which was new for them. Conquering Elvhenan, sacking & sinking Arlathan, and keeping elves in servitude for hundreds of years was all made possible by Tevinter people learning magic from the elves themselves. There's a possibility (if weak) that it was all an effort at historical revisionism, discrediting the elves to fatten Tevinter ego and morale by asserting the belief that they were were a chosen people ordained by divine powers.

Also, codex entries state that Corypheus was imprisoned in 1004 Ancient, some years after the end of the First Blight. What rock he was under for the past two hundred years before remains a mystery if he doesn't recall Blightin' it up with the Archdemon.

Lastly, I don't personally believe there's any connection in this, but I see people always speak about the Forgotten Ones and the elven pantheon as if it had some credence to it, giving more weight to elven claims of religion than, say, the Chantry, like as if it were the archetype from which all religions rose. But there's something I haven't seen touched upon regarding the elven myth. What if the Forgotten Ones were dwarves? They were beings the elven pantheon warred with for ages which eventually got banished into the underground. The real event became a parable. This is strawman logic, I know, but there's not really much evidence of how elves and dwarves interacted in prehistoric times, nor any specification for why dwarves live below the surface. If there's a grain of sense to be found in this, maybe the Imperium's relationship with the dwarves partly inspired the aggression towards Elvhenan and the mocking irony of burying their whole city below the earth.

I don't know. Food for thought.

[Satyricon331]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
Come to think of it, the Profane's Codex entry discussion of how they decided to feast on their gods just refers to their red lyrium consumption, as the Idol is red lyrium.  

I think that the "eating of the gods" is not the same as the profane's eating of lyrium. It may be that the diety-consumption gave the ghost/things that would turn in to profane the proclivity for eating (red) lyrium.

Basically, saying that the "gods" = lyrium is convenient, but may also be a trap to lead you in the wrong direction.

It's always possible.  However, to me it seems like an attenuated explanation when it's simpler to say their bodies were red lyrium as was the body of the red lyrium idol, which might be a Forgotten One besides.  If the Profane could access the deities to eat them, and the deities weren't down there as red lyrium, why were they down there powerless to render the justice the Profane cried out for?  It just seems simpler to imagine the FOs as red lyrium entities, especially since we know such creatures (at least 1) exist and were there in the Thaig.

[Ghost1041]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I feel like Origins gave an incredibly vague idea of what their relations were like.


As for Renvil, I get the feeling that he'll be killed by them if he tells them about Bhelen. Kal-Sharok hates Orzammar for being so stuck on traditionalism, and Bhelen is not a traditionalist.

Dwarven Noble Origin story suggests, however, that an active
communication between the two remaining dwarven cities does exist, as King Endrin Aeducan
is seen discussing trade contracts involving Kal-Sharok with Lords of
the assembly. His responses and comments show that the strife between
the cities is fueled in a great deal by Orzammar's stubbornness and
traditionalism.


With far fewer resources than Orzammar and no access to the surface,
Kal-Sharok has had to do some very questionable things to survive, and
now they are changed forever. But, it's believed that when the darkspawn
invaded, the kings of the old empire retreated to Kal-Sharok, where
they were able to defeat the darkspawn, but suffered heavy casualties.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I see discussion on the Profane has come up.


The Profane are probably no more than just ancient Dwarves who have gone mad from their lyrium consumption. They worshipped it apparently, and the current Dwarves call blue lyrium the sacred gift from the Stone.

what's curious though is that the Profane wield magic.

When I first played through the PT and came across the profane, my very first thought was these have to be dwarves that were not fully turned into golems.  For some reason something stopped this process.  Or they were golems that mistakes were made on during their creation and they were still alive and thrown away or buried deep underground...locked away, thus the codex that calls them rubble.   Caridin did use living dwarves to make golems, meaning their souls/spirits. 

When crafting the golem shell in Awakenings, Wade needs a master lyrium potion to clean the shell before making a whole new armor.  He said he needed this to cleanse the soul of the person who used it  from before.  He couldn't take the risk of this soul/spirit coming back.  Magic was used to create golems.  If the process was stopped mid-creation of a golem, then their magical ability would still be usable depending on where in the manufacture the disruption occurred. 

Shale had what you could call magical abilities herself with the use of crystals.  In GOA we were shown they somehow stream magic and lyrium into a golem during this process.  I think near the area where you find Sandal there is a very large looking crystal among that lyrium if you take a look.  It looks similar to the crystal we use for Shale.

What I also found interesting in playing the new dlc when you side with Janeka, that the dwarves that she sent to stop Larius are killed and it seemed to me that Larius used their soul/spirits to activate the golems or he created them very, very quickly.  The three dead dwarves are over in a corner somewhere.  Magic and lyrium are being streamed all over the place in the Grey Warden prison.  Larius is a male human Grey Warden, how did he know how to create golems or send the spirits/souls to activate them.  I found this kinda creepy.  Larius may have killed the dwarfs himself or the golems did.  I just found this area kinda creepy and strange.   We don't see golems anywhere else in this prison.

My thoughts on the PT, what if this was a location where an Old God was once imprisoned, or this was their home or dwelling for some reason.  This would explain the idol being there and what if the idol was actually a weapon of one of the old gods.  If the idol is not used in a way that is pleasing to one of the old gods you are struck down as in Bartrands and Meredith's case.

Hawke doesn't actually kill Meredith, nor does the gray warden actually kill the arch demon.  Something with great force killed Meredith once you get her health right at that critical strike to kill her.  Someone or something takes it out of Hawke's hand.  You get the credit for doing so.  The same can be said for the warden killing the Archdemon.  Something with extreme force blew that dragon apart and knocked everyone off of their feet.  This is something that I've thought about. 

Very interesting thread and theories all around from op and everyone. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 07 août 2011 - 08:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well... it's not like it's ancient history. It's the past few centuries. Your reticence in accepting their word for it suggests that you think they could actually be lying as opposed to just spouting folklore (and I agree that the "immortality" part falls in this category). And while, yes, that's possible, it doesn't strike me as particularly likely.

Everyone could be lying all of the time.  That possibility needs to be taken into account.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well Genlocks use the taint to wield magic.

Hmph. This furthers my suspicion that the taint is a perverted form of the elves' lost immortality. Legend has it that in the old days, elves all had the gift of magic. So not only are darkspawn immune to death by natural causes (which is a low form of immortality in many fantasy worlds), but darkspawn also have a way to use magic beyond any other race. I'd bet that every darkspawn is actually capable of it, just few have figured out how to do it since darkspawn don't tend to be the sharpest knives in the drawer.

you know, it's possible that the Primeval Thaig was just a cult of Dwarves that existed a long time ago, and some dwarves didn't want to be a part of it anymore so they broke away and tried to forget about what happened.

It's possible the thaig is Flemeth's guest room and that the red lyrium can be used to play an advanced magical form of pinball. I'm going to go where the clues lead me.

Satyricon331 wrote...

2) The Forgotten Ones hated elves, which suggests their worshippers were not elves, since at first blush the two wouldn't want each other. It's possible there were elves who worshipped them anyway, but it seems less likely. (edit: It also seems to problematize the reading that the Profane's crying out for justice was directed towards their gods. Then there's the question why the only extant survivors of the sinking of Arlathan would be worshippers of the dark pantheon rather than the standard elven pantheon, but this issue isn't unexplainable, of course.)

Where do you get that?

"There are references in elven mythology to another race of gods: gods of evil, with whom the gods of the elven pantheon fought an endless war. These gods are now known as the Forgotten Ones, and for good reason as even the hahrens, or elven elders, know little to nothing about them. According to legend they, along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world at around the time of the fall of Arlathan."

They didn't seem to care for the gods most of the elves did worship, but we don't really know how they felt about the elves themselves. Not that that would stop some from worshiping anyway I imagine. They could've worshiped a god of pestilence hoping earning his favor would direct his wrath upon their foes, for instance.

3) I don't see how that observation is a reaction to my remark, or for that matter assists your position? In explaining the presence of the 2 or 3 elven artifacts in the Thaig, it's not a given that the elves would have had contact with the Thaig residents, even given their contact with the dwarves. If the Thaig is Arlathan, it's easy to see why they would be there, although if so then there might be far too few such artifacts; if it isn't, it bears some consideration, which was all I was offering.

It's not as if we see too much of the place or walk out with handfuls of specific artifacts. How many items out of there are positively identified as dwarven? The Valdasine staff, though we don't know how it got there as it was sealed in Valdasine Thaig, which the Primeval Thaig definite isn't since the Shapers know of it. Aside from that... I can't think of any.

4) I'm not sure what you mean by "that"?

Being skeptical that Arlathan might have elements of dwarven architecture because they helped reinforce it. There's many possible explanations for dwarven architecture if that is Arlathan. Another example being, what if there was already a thaig down where it was sunk and the two, for lack of a better word, "merged?" Kal-Sharok was the capital of the dwarven empire before the darkspawn pushed them to Orzammar. We discovered in Witch Hunt that Kal-Sharok was even willing to slaughter the residents of Cad'halash, their own people, because they were giving refuge to Arlathan survivors and Kal-Sharok didn't want their Tevinter allies to discover some dwarves helping elves. So it's easy to see Kal-Sharok "forgetting" if Tevinter's sinking of Arlathan had taken one of their own thaigs as collateral damage. This would explain why there's dwarven architecture down there and the dwarven Shapers not knowing a thing about it, while it still being the remains of Arlathan. And again, this is just one of many possible explanations.

In any case, I don't see the need for the prickly tone.

Was there some other reason to LOL at David Gaider's "dwarven architecture" confirmation besides finding it funny that the whole Arlathan thing falls on its face?

[Rifneno]

Anyway, I want to say this in a separate post so it doesn't get mixed in with the rest of my last one... I noticed something else in the PT that made me slap myself and go, "Why the hell didn't I notice that before!?"

There are wooden crates in the last room. Stuff made from trees, surrounded by many many miles of things that are, without exception, not trees. Dwarves build everything from tables to bookshelves out of stone. Even their beds are stone! And that's Orzammar, which is a surface access thaig. The Primeval Thaig is the deepest known thaig. Getting anything from the surface that far down is an immense task.

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

Anyway, I want to say this in a separate post so it doesn't get mixed in with the rest of my last one... I noticed something else in the PT that made me slap myself and go, "Why the hell didn't I notice that before!?"

There are wooden crates in the last room. Stuff made from trees, surrounded by many many miles of things that are, without exception, not trees. Dwarves build everything from tables to bookshelves out of stone. Even their beds are stone! And that's Orzammar, which is a surface access thaig. The Primeval Thaig is the deepest known thaig. Getting anything from the surface that far down is an immense task.

I mean this both in some jest and in some seriousness....but maybe there were some ancient species of tree that had really, really deep roots. I seem to recall some tree root-like objects in the Cadash Thaig in DA:O, but my memory might be fuzzy.

This may lend credence to the whole cities built on top of cities though - the Primeval Thaig may have been closer to the surface once upon a time, and either sank/settled by natural or magical means. Or adventurers had been there before with their donkey-cart and pack mules loaded with crates.

[Satyricon331]

Rifneno wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...
2) The Forgotten Ones hated elves, which suggests their worshippers were not elves, since at first blush the two wouldn't want each other. It's possible there were elves who worshipped them anyway, but it seems less likely. (edit: It also seems to problematize the reading that the Profane's crying out for justice was directed towards their gods. Then there's the question why the only extant survivors of the sinking of Arlathan would be worshippers of the dark pantheon rather than the standard elven pantheon, but this issue isn't unexplainable, of course.)

Where do you get that?

"There are references in elven mythology to another race of gods: gods of evil, with whom the gods of the elven pantheon fought an endless war. These gods are now known as the Forgotten Ones, and for good reason as even the hahrens, or elven elders, know little to nothing about them. According to legend they, along with the elven pantheon, were trapped away from the world at around the time of the fall of Arlathan."

They didn't seem to care for the gods most of the elves did worship, but we don't really know how they felt about the elves themselves. Not that that would stop some from worshiping anyway I imagine. They could've worshiped a god of pestilence hoping earning his favor would direct his wrath upon their foes, for instance.

Good point; it must have been an impression I gleaned from their hatred of the standard elven gods, and perhaps also from the theories that link the Forgotten Ones to Tevinter.  (I can't shake the feeling I read something more specific but I can't find anything.)  Nonetheless it still seems strange to cry out for justice to gods of "terror and malice, spite and pestilence" (per the Fen'Harel Codex Entry).  It would seem to require something like the assumption that those characteristics are more a smear than the truth, which seems to me to be very speculative at this point and perhaps a weak grounding point for a theory.  Alternatively it'd take giving up the idea that the self-described forgotten Profane have a connection to the Forgotten Ones, which makes their word choice odd given they'd be elves if the PT were Arlathan, meaning they'd be cognizant of the implication.  Perhaps they turned to the dark pantheon after the fall, but it just seems more straightforward to infer that the mainstream/standard-pantheon elven culture would leave more of an imprint on Arlathan's remains than we see in the PT.  Except for the Carved Ring of the Vehnedahl, there isn't any at all that I know of (as I don't know the red-lyrium idol is a normal elven god. etc.).

3) I don't see how that observation is a reaction to my remark, or for that matter assists your position? In explaining the presence of the 2 or 3 elven artifacts in the Thaig, it's not a given that the elves would have had contact with the Thaig residents, even given their contact with the dwarves. If the Thaig is Arlathan, it's easy to see why they would be there, although if so then there might be far too few such artifacts; if it isn't, it bears some consideration, which was all I was offering.

It's not as if we see too much of the place or walk out with handfuls of specific artifacts. How many items out of there are positively identified as dwarven? The Valdasine staff, though we don't know how it got there as it was sealed in Valdasine Thaig, which the Primeval Thaig definite isn't since the Shapers know of it. Aside from that... I can't think of any.

I'm still unsure what point you're trying to construct here.  If your theory's wrong then there must be an alternate explanation as to why any elven artifacts are there; I was exploring some indication there was a feasible explanation.

4) I'm not sure what you mean by "that"?

Being skeptical that Arlathan might have elements of dwarven architecture because they helped reinforce it. There's many possible explanations for dwarven architecture if that is Arlathan. Another example being, what if there was already a thaig down where it was sunk and the two, for lack of a better word, "merged?" Kal-Sharok was the capital of the dwarven empire before the darkspawn pushed them to Orzammar. We discovered in Witch Hunt that Kal-Sharok was even willing to slaughter the residents of Cad'halash, their own people, because they were giving refuge to Arlathan survivors and Kal-Sharok didn't want their Tevinter allies to discover some dwarves helping elves. So it's easy to see Kal-Sharok "forgetting" if Tevinter's sinking of Arlathan had taken one of their own thaigs as collateral damage. This would explain why there's dwarven architecture down there and the dwarven Shapers not knowing a thing about it, while it still being the remains of Arlathan. And again, this is just one of many possible explanations.

I have trouble imagining viable explanations; the one you offer here leaves open the question why no elven architecture merged in.  Why does it look like a singly, coherently designed city?  Perhaps the "sinking" was a pulling of the city into a thaig, rather than making it magically fall on top of a thaig that was underneath it, a pulling that somehow made the thaig absorb the elven city - but it just seems like an awkward idea for Bioware to have developed into a lore point.  The whole theory isn't impossible by any means (hardly anything is with the poverty of answers we have at this time), but it doesn't feel particularly plausible to me.  I mean, imagine your theory didn't occur to anyone, and a later game revealed that we had already been to Arlathan, only it looked dwarven and had only one or two elven artifacts you could find.  It doesn't seem it would go down well, or be something Bioware'd want to implement.

And I'll add I really like whykikyowhy's thought about there having been one very large tree.  It's reminiscent of Yggdrassil, the Norse world tree, and we know they sample Norse mythology.  It'd also explain why the elves have the tree imagery, although it would open up other questions.

In any case, I don't see the need for the prickly tone.

Was there some other reason to LOL at David Gaider's "dwarven architecture" confirmation besides finding it funny that the whole Arlathan thing falls on its face?

That sign of delight was at having the Primeval Thaig be dwarven, rather than Bioware-botched elven, architecture.  I said in my first post on this thread that it'd be terrible imo if Arlathan looked like that.  I'd be really unhappy.  It would just seem to blow a big design opportunity; most architecture in fantasy games either looks very terrestrial or it looks kind of loony, and I'd like to see DA's shot at elven architecture (which we can infer from DAO must be distinctive from Tevinter architecture since at least twice characters recognize ruins as human rather than elven - Tamlen in the Dalish origin and Morrigan's comment on entering the ruins in the Brec Forest).  It's a big issue for me; I even talked about the architecture in my post back on the first DA2 feedback thread.

[Macropodmum]

If it makes you feel better I never noticed them either...

[Rifneno]

Satyricon331 wrote...

Good point; it must have been an impression I gleaned from their hatred of the standard elven gods, and perhaps also from the theories that link the Forgotten Ones to Tevinter. (I can't shake the feeling I read something more specific but I can't find anything.) Nonetheless it still seems strange to cry out for justice to gods of "terror and malice, spite and pestilence" (per the Fen'Harel Codex Entry). It would seem to require something like the assumption that those characteristics are more a smear than the truth, which seems to me to be very speculative at this point and perhaps a weak grounding point for a theory. Alternatively it'd take giving up the idea that the self-described forgotten Profane have a connection to the Forgotten Ones, which makes their word choice odd given they'd be elves if the PT were Arlathan, meaning they'd be cognizant of the implication. Perhaps they turned to the dark pantheon after the fall, but it just seems more straightforward to infer that the mainstream/standard-pantheon elven culture would leave more of an imprint on Arlathan's remains than we see in the PT. Except for the Carved Ring of the Vehnedahl, there isn't any at all that I know of (as I don't know the red-lyrium idol is a normal elven god. etc.).

True, those definitely aren't gods you call out to for justice. I don't think they necessarily had to worship those gods to call themselves forgotten though. Like I said in the OP, I think "We who are forgotten" refers to how the majority of elven culture and history was lost with the destruction of Arlathan. I'm sure the evil gods of their pantheon weren't even called forgotten when it was sunk, the names of those gods is just one of the great many things lost in the catastrophe.

The lack of known elven deities in the thaig is a good point, admittedly. I guess it could be explained that after the gods didn't answer their call, feeling betrayed, they destroyed most of the stuff worshipping them. Still, I would expect some reference to Falon'Din (the elven god that served as a guide to the souls of the dead)... Most of the PT we go through was a crypt after all.

I'm still unsure what point you're trying to construct here. If your theory's wrong then there must be an alternate explanation as to why any elven artifacts are there; I was exploring some indication there was a feasible explanation.

Ahh. I misunderstood, I thought it was a debunking since...

That sign of delight was at having the Primeval Thaig be dwarven, rather than Bioware-botched elven, architecture. I said in my first post on this thread that it'd be terrible imo if Arlathan looked like that. I'd be really unhappy. It would just seem to blow a big design opportunity; most architecture in fantasy games either looks very terrestrial or it looks kind of loony, and I'd like to see DA's shot at elven architecture (which we can infer from DAO must be distinctive from Tevinter architecture since at least twice characters recognize ruins as human rather than elven - Tamlen in the Dalish origin and Morrigan's comment on entering the ruins in the Brec Forest). It's a big issue for me; I even talked about the architecture in my post back on the first DA2 feedback thread.

I also grossly misunderstood this. The smiley was a "lol" rather than a smile, so I thought the meaning was finding humor in the OP being proven wrong by DG. My mistake, and sincere apologies for the snippy tone.

I have trouble imagining viable explanations; the one you offer here leaves open the question why no elven architecture merged in. Why does it look like a singly, coherently designed city? Perhaps the "sinking" was a pulling of the city into a thaig, rather than making it magically fall on top of a thaig that was underneath it, a pulling that somehow made the thaig absorb the elven city - but it just seems like an awkward idea for Bioware to have developed into a lore point. The whole theory isn't impossible by any means (hardly anything is with the poverty of answers we have at this time), but it doesn't feel particularly plausible to me. I mean, imagine your theory didn't occur to anyone, and a later game revealed that we had already been to Arlathan, only it looked dwarven and had only one or two elven artifacts you could find. It doesn't seem it would go down well, or be something Bioware'd want to implement.

Fair points. We didn't really see the whole place though, so they could just say what we did see we mostly dwarven and we could see some more elven areas later by knocking down a wall or fixing some of the broken bridges in the area with the profane abomination. That does sound somewhat convoluted, but I still think it's more plausible than the thaig truly being dwarven with a few elven refugees or something, given all the other points I mentioned in the OP.

Macropodmum wrote...

If it makes you feel better I never noticed them either...

But did you spend a few hours there looking for anything that might give clues and taking screenshots for comparing with other DA scenes?

[Satyricon331]

Rifneno wrote...
True, those definitely aren't gods you call out to for justice. I don't think they necessarily had to worship those gods to call themselves forgotten though. Like I said in the OP, I think "We who are forgotten" refers to how the majority of elven culture and history was lost with the destruction of Arlathan. I'm sure the evil gods of their pantheon weren't even called forgotten when it was sunk, the names of those gods is just one of the great many things lost in the catastrophe.

The lack of known elven deities in the thaig is a good point, admittedly. I guess it could be explained that after the gods didn't answer their call, feeling betrayed, they destroyed most of the stuff worshipping them. Still, I would expect some reference to Falon'Din (the elven god that served as a guide to the souls of the dead)... Most of the PT we go through was a crypt after all.

I could see them feeling forgotten since apparently nobody found them until a bit before Hawke's expedition, but they wouldn't know whether there was an actual forgetting of them on the surface, barring e.g. some (very under-narrated!) skrying magic, akin to what Flemeth mentions.  Perhaps it is just that the felt neglected.  edit: And you're probably right they didn't go by the "Forgotten Ones" moniker back in the elves' heyday.  

I also grossly misunderstood this. The smiley was a "lol" rather than a smile, so I thought the meaning was finding humor in the OP being proven wrong by DG. My mistake, and sincere apologies for the snippy tone.

No need to apologize, although I'll say as well I'm sorry for creating that impression.  It doesn't look like a laughing smiley to me; it looks gleeful to me, whereas the one with the tongue showing looks like he's belly laughing.  I should have considered the possible misimpressions.

Fair points. We didn't really see the whole place though, so they could just say what we did see we mostly dwarven and we could see some more elven areas later by knocking down a wall or fixing some of the broken bridges in the area with the profane abomination. That does sound somewhat convoluted, but I still think it's more plausible than the thaig truly being dwarven with a few elven refugees or something, given all the other points I mentioned in the OP.

Yeah, we just have different subjective likelihood assessments then.  If it were scientific hypothesis testing, it'd be a strong conclusion to ground on two artifacts, the "prf" file name, the interpretation of the Profane codex, the assumption the Tevinters needed to cast the blood-based spell near Arlathan, and the elvenoids in the red lyrium idol.  There's just not enough evidence to accept or exclude the theory, so we're just left with subjective assessments.  Sadly for evidence we have to wait for the torturous trickle feed of tidbits Bioware dispenses.  Gah!  There's a reason I never read fantasy series anymore until after the author finishes them.

Modifié par Satyricon331, 07 août 2011 - 11:09 .

[Macropodmum]

Rifneno wrote...

Macropodmum wrote...

If it makes you feel better I never noticed them either...

But did you spend a few hours there looking for anything that might give clues and taking screenshots for comparing with other DA scenes?

Well no, but didn't I not long ago say how much attention I paid to detail?

[Rifneno]

This is an elven helmet modeled by Ariana (obviously).  Though the model has been used for a few elvish things since, the original was for the Ancient Elven Armor set.  It was worn by the temple guards of the ancient civilizations, including Arlathan.  Could this be the spike depicted on the lyrium idol's head?

...  Man that is a gorgeous helmet.  Now I see why people want more out of Arlathan's ruins than piles of half-dwarven rubble.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

This is an elven helmet modeled by Ariana (obviously).  Though the model has been used for a few elvish things since, the original was for the Ancient Elven Armor set.  It was worn by the temple guards of the ancient civilizations, including Arlathan.  Could this be the spike depicted on the lyrium idol's head?

Possible. But where did you get that it was worn by temple guards of ancient civilizations other than Arlathan?

Edit: But it looks more like Meredith's or Flemeth's headspike.

...  Man that is a gorgeous helmet.  Now I see why people want more out of Arlathan's ruins than piles of half-dwarven rubble.

Why this comment? I'd rather see more of the dwarven ruins than half-elven rubble.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 08 août 2011 - 01:00 .

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Possible. But where did you get that it was worn by temple guards of ancient civilizations other than Arlathan?

Edit: But it looks more like Meredith's or Flemeth's headspike.

The codex. "Before the fall of Arlathan, even before Arlathan itself, the civilization of the elves stretched across all of Thedas like a great, indolent cat.

This armor was made for temple guards in a time when the Creators still spoke to the elves. The techniques of its forging, even the name of the metal it is forged from, have long since faded from memory."

Arlathan is is the only elven civilization we really know about. Tevinter went to great lengths to make sure future generations wouldn't know jack about the elves, so we don't really know the names of the others. But the codex definitely indicates that type of armor was a common element.

Why this comment? I'd rather see more of the dwarven ruins than half-elven rubble.

Because several people already voiced a dissatisfaction with the imagery of the Primeval Thaig if the Arlathan theory is true, saying they thought the ancient elven lands would be more... I don't know, grand?

I don't know why you'd be anxious to see more dwarven ruins. We've already seen a bunch, and they're all very similar (with the obvious exception of the Primeval Thaig). Like Bartrand said, dwarves haven't changed much in many centuries. Thaigs lost for over 1,000 years still bear great resemblance to Orzammar. Elven ruins have some appeal to so many because they're still a big mystery.

[Herr Uhl]

Rifneno wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Possible. But where did you get that it was worn by temple guards of ancient civilizations other than Arlathan?

Edit: But it looks more like Meredith's or Flemeth's headspike.

The codex. "Before the fall of Arlathan, even before Arlathan itself, the civilization of the elves stretched across all of Thedas like a great, indolent cat.

This armor was made for temple guards in a time when the Creators still spoke to the elves. The techniques of its forging, even the name of the metal it is forged from, have long since faded from memory."

Arlathan is is the only elven civilization we really know about. Tevinter went to great lengths to make sure future generations wouldn't know jack about the elves, so we don't really know the names of the others. But the codex definitely indicates that type of armor was a common element.

Oh, I usually count those as Arlathan as they led up to it. Anyways, it strikes me more as a priestess than a guardian, as I think it looks more like a circlet.

Because several people already voiced a dissatisfaction with the imagery of the Primeval Thaig if the Arlathan theory is true, saying they thought the ancient elven lands would be more... I don't know, grand?
I don't know why you'd be anxious to see more dwarven ruins. We've already seen a bunch, and they're all very similar (with the obvious exception of the Primeval Thaig). Like Bartrand said, dwarves haven't changed much in many centuries. Thaigs lost for over 1,000 years still bear great resemblance to Orzammar. Elven ruins have some appeal to so many because they're still a big mystery.

Well, I imagine that dwarves were helping on contracting there as well, just like they did with the Imperium for the highway for example. (Hence the half-elven in my remark)

After all the talking up by dalish about how grand it was, anything would be a letdown though I think.

[whykikyouwhy]

Wasn't the Urn Guardian wearing elven armor, or something similar? Which could be a nod to grand ancient civilizations, or just a tie to Andraste. What stands out for me about the idol though, is the artistic style - it looks very much like the way the slaves are depicted at the Gallows. Very lean, near emaciated figures. Also a similar (metal?) cast.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

The Prieval Thaig and the very different and disturbing nature of the red lyrium should have been expanded upon more. That whole thaig had more story and lore potential than most other things. yet we don't even get any useful hints or clues at its broder context or signifgance, other than it has red idols that make people crazy for no explained reason. Not even hinted at.

[Rifneno]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Oh, I usually count those as Arlathan as they led up to it. Anyways, it strikes me more as a priestess than a guardian, as I think it looks more like a circlet.

That one suit of armor is the only example we have of clothing or armor from Arlathan. It's not just possible but highly likely that the clergy wore very similar outfits albeit not made of metal. Look at a templar next to a holy mother, his armor bears many holy symbols of Andraste. It's certainly significant that elves are the only ancient culture we know wore spikes on their foreheads, an unusual feature of the beings depicted in the lyrium idol. Not a smoking gun, but certainly another hint towards an elven origin.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Wasn't the Urn Guardian wearing elven armor, or something similar?

"The Guardian wears a Griffon's Helm, Griffon's Beak and the full Diligence Armor Set during The Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, though none of the items are set to be dropped upon his death or stealable from him." - from the wiki

[whykikyouwhy]

Ah, my mistake - not in a position to look it up. Though my comment on stylization of the figures still stands.

[CitizenThom]

Frusciante31 wrote...

3. Your research is really good, so try to take it one step further: There seems to be a connection between the primeval thaig and the red lyrium (e.g. the idol was on a pedestal in an Important Room ™)...do you have a theory on what that connection is, or how it was formed?

overall though, very impressive!

Maybe red lyrium is an ancient mix of blood magic and lyrium magic. Pure speculation on my part.

Ginkeh wrote...

 You`re right that New England isn`t a part of England, but the forrest isn`t named New Arlathan either. 

Alternatively one can consider the various cities named Jackson in the US. If I remember right, Alexander the great left behind several Alexandrias. My recollection is that the Russians had a leader as well that inspired the name of several cities, I'm just recalling which czar or communist it was.

[Foolsfolly]

Well, Rifneno...I've always thought it was Arlathan myself but like you said in your first post all I had to go on was "It doesn't look dwarven and it's underground."

This thread has given much more evidence to the theory. Good work.