532 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

DAMNIT ALL! I want to kick my own ass for not remembering the most obvious lead there could possibly be. Arl Foreshadow.

Gespenst wrote...

So does that timeline mean that Kirkwall wasn't built to destroy Arlathan? Whatever the ritual they inteded was they had it in mind when they built the city - since the layout of the buildings and the streets was part of it, right? I need to read the band of three notes all at once, I think. Not spread out over the course of the entire game...

Edit: Oh, I see. They're numbering backwards (like BC/BCE). So Kirkwall was founded after the fall of Arlathan... but before the magisters invaded the golden city. I wonder... that actually seems like too much power just for traveling to the golden city if it takes the life of one person to put one mage into the fade.

Jowan's blood magic rite only sends the mage's conscious spirit into the Fade, not their physical body. The magister's Golden City play is the only time we know of that anyone has entered the Fade physically. I've always wondered why it's such a big deal for people in Thedas to enter the Fade, but if a bunch of demons manage to physically enter Thedas, it's... Tuesday. But anyway, yes, that timeline rules out the theory that Arlathan is the Primeval Thaig. If it's accurate. But then again, it's written from the point of view of a Chantry follower, and for reasons completely unknown, the Chantry denies what Tevinter was doing in Kirkwall. "I saw the records that the templars say don't exist." I really don't understand why the Chantry would cover up Tevinter's evil deeds, their entire religion is based on calling Tevinter douchebags. But, it is implied in the Enigma of Kirkwall.

Macropodmum wrote...

Actually looking at that, it looks like the figures are emerging from leaves kind of like a stamen protrudes from the petals of a flower.

Is that what that is? I slept through botany class. Either that or I got kicked out for making juvenile analogies I can't repeat here. I forget which. I wasted a lot of time if that's the case... I searched around both games trying to find that symbol on something else.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Short answer: Empathy (in this case, literally putting himself in the sufferer's shoes) and the ensuing guilt. Caridin not only feels as you describe, but also commits suicide.

Yeah, but I mean he wouldn't feel redeemed and free to melt himself if he knew there was other golem-making secrets out there, which he would if he learned it from somewhere else.

If they are "roots" or "tentacles" then it could mean there is a 'tree" or an "animal" somewhere - the rest of it, something that could be very, very large.

Damn Thorian. I knew Shepard should've just bombed the hell out of it.

Dwarven insensitivity to magic comes from the same reason their supposed immunity to the bad effects of lyrium comes from - their lack of connection to the Fade. Read this. It means either they were cut off from the Fade at some point, or that that is how they always were. I favor the former - some event in the distant past (before the shaperate recordings of their memories) caused them to lose their connection to the Fade.

If it's just their lack of connection to the Fade, why do they lose it after long enough on the surface? That was the official explanation as to why Varric didn't get a magic resistance bonus. Which is fine by me, since MR only screws haste, but anyway... also, if that's how it works wouldn't tranquils make the best templars ever? They should be totally immune to magic (except maybe blood magic) if it's a Fade connection thing. Actually, tranquils give us another question. If dwarves are disconnected to the Fade, why aren't they emotionless like tranquils?

Anyway, the question of why dwarves don't have magic is certainly a head scratcher. I'm not sure we'll ever have an answer though. Pretty sure I remember a dev actually saying that (that they may never explain it) in a post once, but I can't find it at the moment, so take that with a grain of salt.

... While we're at it, I wonder why the griffins went extinct... Oh, sorry, apparently I forgot to take my Ritalin or something.

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding the Chantry covering up Tevinter's evil ways - could it be that whatever the Tevinter mages (?) were doing in Kirkwall would refute the Chantry teachings? We have the whole hellmouth concept - now, this goes back to some other hazy theories I have, but what if the "doorway" to the golden-black city was in or under Kirkwall (not necessaril the front door - could be a side access). Would the chantry want everyone knowing that location or knowing how that door was opened? We know that slaves were part of the ritual/process/ what have you to get into the golden-black city. Well, where in Thedas do we know there were a slew of slaves...? And where is the torment of said slaves evident in stark basrelief and statuary?

A long shot, sure.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Short answer: Empathy (in this case, literally putting himself in the sufferer's shoes) and the ensuing guilt. Caridin not only feels as you describe, but also commits suicide.

Yeah, but I mean he wouldn't feel redeemed and free to melt himself if he knew there was other golem-making secrets out there, which he would if he learned it from somewhere else.

Well, what is to say that he ever built anything? He might have just brought the Anvil from somewhere.

Damn Thorian. I knew Shepard should've just bombed the hell out of it.

A giant, slumbering, pretending-to-be-dead something!

If it's just their lack of connection to the Fade, why do they lose it after long enough on the surface?

This might need closer scrutiny. If underground dwarves aren't connected to the Fade, but if they gain that connection when they come to the surface, then it must mean there is something down there that is preventing them from having that connection. Something that is kind of a Fade-sheild of some sort.

That was the official explanation as to why Varric didn't get a magic resistance bonus. Which is fine by me, since MR only screws haste, but anyway... also, if that's how it works wouldn't tranquils make the best templars ever? They should be totally immune to magic (except maybe blood magic) if it's a Fade connection thing.

They would, I suppose. But could they be trained to become warriors? Can they even fight?

Actually, tranquils give us another question. If dwarves are disconnected to the Fade, why aren't they emotionless like tranquils?

Well, technically, dwarves can regain that connection. Not sure whether tranquils can do that. But I'm suspecting what the templars do to make them tranquil is something of a more insidious nature, something entirely different.

Anyway, the question of why dwarves don't have magic is certainly a head scratcher. I'm not sure we'll ever have an answer though. Pretty sure I remember a dev actually saying that (that they may never explain it) in a post once, but I can't find it at the moment, so take that with a grain of salt.

Gaider says it in the same link I posted: "Will we ever discuss the reason they don't enter the Fade? Possibly. If that makes you pout, then sorry."

Well, we'll see what further these Primeval Thaigs reveal. And there is the Sandal mystery.

... While we're at it, I wonder why the griffins went extinct... Oh, sorry, apparently I forgot to take my Ritalin or something.

They got eaten by dragons.

EDIT: Another missed quote.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 août 2011 - 02:27 .

[TEWR]

I think people should look at this specific line in the codex of the Primeval Thaig

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.


He says not only was the statue of dwarven make, but that it didn't resemble any of the Paragons that they know of. Which means the statue was of a Dwarf. A Dwarf they'd never seen or heard of before.

Rifneno wrote...
"I saw the records that the templars say don't exist." I really don't understand why the Chantry would cover up Tevinter's evil deeds, their entire religion is based on calling Tevinter douchebags. But, it is implied in the Enigma of Kirkwall.

Why else? They purposely hid the records away and built a Circle in one of the worst places in Thedas (if not THE worst) so that they could condemn mages even more when **** happens.

Rifneno wrote...
If dwarves are disconnected to the Fade, why aren't they emotionless like tranquils?

I imagine it's because the RoT sunders the mage from the Fade immediately, whereas Dwarves had time to grow into their disconnection. The RoT is a very crude way of removing magic from a person, and if mages were allowed to do anatomical study, they might find a better way.

Which makes me wonder how the RoT was even discovered in the first place.

Rifneno wrote...

... While we're at it, I wonder why the griffins went extinct... Oh, sorry, apparently I forgot to take my Ritalin or something.

They're not extinct. They're alive on an uncharted island in a wild state


God I hope that's the case. Because I do think that's what's going to happen given Mike Laidlaw's suspicious comment regarding griffins in Legacy

At this point I can only promise statues

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2011 - 03:22 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The RoT probably originates in the Elven ritual you use on Feynriel if you make him tranquil. While it isn't the exact same procedure (RoT includes branding a mage's forehead with Lyrium), it is probably what taught the Tevinters, which in turn taught the Andrastians.

[Gespenst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

So the dwarves dug too high and struck elves. And I wonder what "frugal" is a reference to. Perhaps the  frugal nature of elves made the trade relationship short-lived?

Well it's an antonym of greed (well not really but it replaces greed in the quote and is kind of opposite).

Rifneno wrote...

Jowan's blood magic rite only sends the mage's conscious spirit into the Fade, not their physical body. The magister's Golden City play is the only time we know of that anyone has entered the Fade physically.

Is that ritual different to how it's done in the harrowing?

Witch Hunt SPOILERS

I sort of thought that might be what Morrigan did with her eluvian in Witch Hunt to ... gain more power or whatever it was

SPOILERS

Rifneno wrote...

I've always wondered why it's such a big deal for people in Thedas to enter the Fade, but if a bunch of demons manage to physically enter Thedas, it's... Tuesday.

Because humans can't possess spirits?

Rifneno wrote...

If dwarves are disconnected to the Fade, why aren't they emotionless like tranquils?

Perhaps because they're more "naturally" disconnected from the Fade (for lack of a better term)? The tranquil have basically been lobotomised.

if that's how it works wouldn't tranquils make the best templars ever? They should be totally immune to magic (except maybe blood magic) if it's a Fade connection thing.

Well you can't be immune to a fireball. Well you can but I mean it's not the magic that kills you but the fire...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

A giant, slumbering, pretending-to-be-dead something!

Cthulhu fhtag!!

Modifié par Gespenst, 11 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[JoHnDoE14]

Congratulations! Very well thought post!

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think people should look at this specific line in the codex of the Primeval Thaig

Yet in this scavenger's belongings, amidst all the filth, there was a single idol. It was clearly of dwarven make, but not resembling any Paragon on record. The idol was dressed in a manner I've never seen. The Shaper of Memories also could not identify it or the substance from which it was made. The thought that the Memories might be wrong... unsettling.


He says not only was the statue of dwarven make, but that it didn't resemble any of the Paragons that they know of. Which means the statue was of a Dwarf. A Dwarf they'd never seen or heard of before.

I thought that statement had more to do with what dwarves usually expect - idols of paragons. Not sure if it was really an idol of a dwarf.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The RoT probably originates in the Elven ritual you use on Feynriel if you make him tranquil. While it isn't the exact same procedure (RoT includes branding a mage's forehead with Lyrium), it is probably what taught the Tevinters, which in turn taught the Andrastians.

That is possible. Although there are two issues: one, if you take Merrill into the Fade and kill her during that quest, she doesn't end up a tranquil. Second Feynrial was a "dreamer," so it might as well be that killing the manifestation of a dreamer in the Fade would result in him becoming a tranquil.

So, I belive there could be more to making a mage a tranquil.

Gespenst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

So the dwarves dug too high and struck elves. And I wonder what "frugal" is a reference to. Perhaps the  frugal nature of elves made the trade relationship short-lived?

Well it's an antonym of greed (well not really but it replaces greed in the quote and is kind of opposite).

Yes, well, the LotR reference. I was merely exploring a hidden meaning. Remember how in DA2 someone (Varric?) mentions never to play cards with an elf, because he/she will never pay you back? That sort of fit into the whole context of the trade relationship between elves and dwarves being short-lived.

EDIT: Fixing formatting.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 août 2011 - 04:25 .

[Gespenst]

^ That was a loading screen wasn't it?

Never play cards with a Qunari, it's impossible to tell when they're bluffing. Never play cards with an elf either, they never pay their debts. And never play with a Wookiee dwarf, they'll kill you if they lose.

Modifié par Gespenst, 11 août 2011 - 04:34 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gespenst wrote...

^ That was a loading screen wasn't it?

Never play cards with a Qunari, it's impossible to tell when they're bluffing. Never play cards with an elf either, they never pay their debts. And never play with a Wookiee dwarf, they'll kill you if they lose.

It was? I vaguely remember seeing/hearing it somewhere. But, yes, I suppose what you wrote was the full quote.

[Gespenst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

It was? I vaguely remember seeing/hearing it somewhere. But, yes, I suppose what you wrote was the full quote.

I might have paraphrased slightly but that's more or less what was said. I don't know if any character ever said it as well but since there were so few loading screen messages I remember it quite well from there.

And I finally have that quote about delving with the help of some kind soul:

Gandalf the Grey said...

The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.

So the statue was probably a reference to the movie version. Edit: Having re-read the statue quote it could be either. It just seemed more similar to the movie quote for some reason.

Oh, and Larius does indeed say

Two thousand years the magic holds. Never broken. Give it the key. Let it take the magic back to itself. Absorb it. All who came before.

But he is a half mad, half insane crazy person. What's 6-700 years to him?

Modifié par Gespenst, 11 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gespenst wrote...

Gandalf the Grey said...

The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.

So the statue was probably a reference to the movie version. Edit: Having re-read the statue quote it could be either. It just seemed more similar to the movie quote for some reason.

No, you could be right. Taking that analogy to its full extent, does it mean that elves were the Durin's Bane in DA for dwarves? I wonder what it could mean.

Oh, and Larius does indeed say

Two thousand years the magic holds. Never broken. Give it the key. Let it take the magic back to itself. Absorb it. All who came before.

But he is a half mad, half insane crazy person. What's 6-700 years to him?

I'm lost with this one. I believe this is from Legacy, which I haven't played. What is the meaning of what Larius said?

[Gespenst]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

No, you could be right. Taking that analogy to its full extent, does it mean that elves were the Durin's Bane in DA for dwarves? I wonder what it could mean.

Um... LOTR spoilers?

Durin's Bane was the Balrog that drove the dwarves out of Moria centuries ago (it killed King Durin VI, hence the name.

http://lotr.wikia.co...ki/Durin's_Bane

So I can't think how they could be related. Unless contact with the elves lead to a decline in dwarven society somehow.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I'm lost with this one. I believe this is from Legacy, which I haven't played. What is the meaning of what Larius said?

Oh, sorry, it was brought up before so I just assumed...

Legacy spoilers:




He's referring to tthe seals on Corypheus an immensely powerful darkspawn that was captured by the wardens and magically imprisoned since about 1004TE. Larius says that the prison's seals have been in place for 2000 years, which seems to be a mistake (either the character's (who's a bit crazy) or the writers).

Or else the timeline is totally jacked.


/SPOILER

That's pretty much the miminum spoiler version..

Edit: I've been trying to make the spoiler text I post the same colour as the background so you have to highlight it to read it (cuts down on the chance you'd read it accidently) but it doesn't always work. I've no idea why but I'm officially giving up. Maybe I should use Rot13 or something for the really spoilery spoilers.

Modifié par Gespenst, 11 août 2011 - 06:24 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Gespenst wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

No, you could be right. Taking that analogy to its full extent, does it mean that elves were the Durin's Bane in DA for dwarves? I wonder what it could mean.

Um... LOTR spoilers?

I'm totally upset with you now. LotR spoilers? How could you?!

Durin's Bane was the Balrog that drove the dwarves out of Moria centuries ago (it killed King Durin VI, hence the name.

http://lotr.wikia.co...ki/Durin's_Bane

So I can't think how they could be related. Unless contact with the elves lead to a decline in dwarven society somehow.

Right, thanks.

If elves caused the downfall of dwarves, we can look to the Primeval Thaig for clues. Although, that must have been the ancient civilization of dwarves. Somehow, I don't think this could be what was meant.

What if the reverse was meant, though? The dwarves caused the decline of elves? This seems the more likely, with the ancient civilization of elves - in their glory days, extending throughout Thedas - brought down somehow, supposedly even before Arlathan fell.

Although, I think the writers could have intended a pun here. It was supposedly a LotR reference, but not in the scale of decline of a civilization - just the decline of a trade relationship. Maybe what I said earlier. I have to admit, this is somewhat crafty on their part (EDIT 2: and clever of you guys to have caught the association).

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

I'm lost with this one. I believe this is from Legacy, which I haven't played. What is the meaning of what Larius said?

Oh, sorry, it was brought up before so I just assumed...

This was supposedly a reference to that timeline error when the magisters invaded the Golden/Black City? Ah, well, nevermind. I thought you were addressing me. My mistake.

EDIT: Geez. Another quote thing.

Modifié par MichaelFinnegan, 11 août 2011 - 06:45 .

[Rifneno]

[quote]whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding the Chantry covering up Tevinter's evil ways - could it be that whatever the Tevinter mages (?) were doing in Kirkwall would refute the Chantry teachings? We have the whole hellmouth concept - now, this goes back to some other hazy theories I have, but what if the "doorway" to the golden-black city was in or under Kirkwall (not necessaril the front door - could be a side access). Would the chantry want everyone knowing that location or knowing how that door was opened? We know that slaves were part of the ritual/process/ what have you to get into the golden-black city. Well, where in Thedas do we know there were a slew of slaves...? And where is the torment of said slaves evident in stark basrelief and statuary?

A long shot, sure. [/quote]

I don't understand. You mean that Kirkwall was where they entered the Black City? Why wouldn't the Chantry want people to know? It took the blood of hundreds of thousands of slaves to do whatever they did at Kirkwall. The veil is damaged still, sure, but no one could try to enter the Fade at that spot again without a few Olympic-sized swimming pools full of blood. In fact I'd think they'd be screaming it from the rooftops. The Chantry says that Tevinter used most of their vast lyrium reserves and a few hundred slaves for the rite. It's easier to show people the evils of magic when saying they butchered hundreds of thousands of people, rather than a tiny fraction of that and some metal that doesn't care if it's used.

[quote]MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, what is to say that he ever built anything? He might have just brought the Anvil from somewhere.[/quote]

Hmm. That's a possibility I never considered. Nice.

[quote]They would, I suppose. But could they be trained to become warriors? Can they even fight?[/quote]

I don't know... we've never seen one try. But if they were ordered to do it, I can't see why not. The biggest obstacle I'd think would be that they seem rather lethargic.

[quote]Well, technically, dwarves can regain that connection. Not sure whether tranquils can do that. But I'm suspecting what the templars do to make them tranquil is something of a more insidious nature, something entirely different.[/quote]

I suspect you're right. Judging by Karl's reaction to Justice, my belief has been that people's souls or spirits or whatever are in another plane. Maybe the Fade, maybe even beyond that. And the RoT severs that connection. Perhaps the reason dwarves can't do magic is that their "souls" are actually in their bodies, in the mortal world.

... Hmm. Here's a longshot to consider. What if dwarves are like that because they're the only race actually native to Thedas? Humans and Kossith/Qunari both just kind of appeared from Par Vollen. Elves' history is far too old to know the origin of. People have wondered if the Qunari are actually from another world or dimension because they just popped out of nowhere one day. But the few records left from the first human/elven contact says the same thing: they just came out of Par Vollen.

[quote]Well, we'll see what further these Primeval Thaigs reveal. And there is the Sandal mystery.[/quote]

I'd be surprised if there are more of them. And Sandal is Commander Shepard.

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He says not only was the statue of dwarven make, but that it didn't resemble any of the Paragons that they know of. Which means the statue was of a Dwarf. A Dwarf they'd never seen or heard of before.[/quote]

Everyone assumed the lyrium idol was dwarven and we know for a fact it's not depicting dwarves.

[quote]Gespenst wrote...

Is that ritual different to how it's done in the harrowing?[/quote]

Jowan's you mean? Probably only in that it uses a more sinister power source and has a less sinister goal. Can't say for certain of course.

[quote]JoHnDoE14 wrote...

Congratulations! Very well thought post![/quote]

Thank ye.

[quote]Gespenst wrote...

Oh, and Larius does indeed say

Two thousand years the magic holds. Never broken. Give it the key. Let it take the magic back to itself. Absorb it. All who came before.

But he is a half mad, half insane crazy person. What's 6-700 years to him?
[/quote]

... Damn. I find myself hoping that's proof the timelines are off so this can still be possible. Loss of objectivity is not conductive to good reasoning. =/

[quote]Um... LOTR spoilers?[/quote]

I think the statute of limitations is up on that, hehe...

[quote]Maybe I should use Rot13 or something for the really spoilery spoilers.[/quote]

V zvff ebg13. Erzvaqf zr bs gur byq Hfrarg qnlf, jura vg jnf hfrq sbe zrffntr obneqf engure guna cvengvat grenolgrf bs cbea. Abg gung V'z pbzcynvavat nobhg gur ynggre, zvaq lbh...

I don't know what specifically to quote in saying this, but... after the Klendagon thing (Mass Effect players know what this means), I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Bioware hid an important foreshadowing in that dwarven/elven monument. And that's great, I hate it when designers make any clues to a mystery so easy a caveman could do it--er, find them.

[TEWR]

Everyone assumed the lyrium idol was dwarven and we know for a fact it's not depicting dwarves.

No we don't. We know the idol we found in the Thaig isn't depicting Dwarves, but Meredith's idol is not the same as the idol that was brought to the King of Orzammar.


EDIT: If the idol that was brought to the king wasn't depicting a Dwarf, then they wouldn't have bothered to compare it with the statues of the Paragons now would they? 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2011 - 11:55 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Everyone assumed the lyrium idol was dwarven and we know for a fact it's not depicting dwarves.

No we don't. We know the idol we found in the Thaig isn't depicting Dwarves, but Meredith's idol is not the same as the idol that was brought to the King of Orzammar.

The one that wound up in Meredith's office, likely next to a knife and a straw, is the one I meant.  I just mean that no one ever went, "hey, these aren't dwarves.  WTF?" when it was discovered.  But they still seemed to consider the thaig dwarven.  Also after finding the elven ring, even though no one in the group knows about the Cadash Thaig discovery (which hasn't been made yet anyway).

[whykikyouwhy]

Rifneno wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding the Chantry covering up Tevinter's evil ways - could it be that whatever the Tevinter mages (?) were doing in Kirkwall would refute the Chantry teachings? We have the whole hellmouth concept - now, this goes back to some other hazy theories I have, but what if the "doorway" to the golden-black city was in or under Kirkwall (not necessaril the front door - could be a side access). Would the chantry want everyone knowing that location or knowing how that door was opened? We know that slaves were part of the ritual/process/ what have you to get into the golden-black city. Well, where in Thedas do we know there were a slew of slaves...? And where is the torment of said slaves evident in stark basrelief and statuary?

A long shot, sure.

I don't understand. You mean that Kirkwall was where they entered the Black City? Why wouldn't the Chantry want people to know? It took the blood of hundreds of thousands of slaves to do whatever they did at Kirkwall. The veil is damaged still, sure, but no one could try to enter the Fade at that spot again without a few Olympic-sized swimming pools full of blood. In fact I'd think they'd be screaming it from the rooftops. The Chantry says that Tevinter used most of their vast lyrium reserves and a few hundred slaves for the rite. It's easier to show people the evils of magic when saying they butchered hundreds of thousands of people, rather than a tiny fraction of that and some metal that doesn't care if it's used.

I think Kirkwall may have been an entry point to the Golden-Black City. But then, I think the Magisters made a lanked assault in their act of trespass - coming at it from different points in Thedas. This might explain why Corypheus is alone in the prison.

Since this is all fluff and speculation, and it's just something trapped in my brain and taking root, humor me, if you will...

Maybe the Chantry doesn't want people to know because individuals involved with the Chantry made some compromise. Or maybe some compromise in general was made. Or maybe there is something inherent to Kirkwall that completely refutes the Chantry's lore of the Golden-Black City being the residence of the Maker, and the plane that he created as heaven. The Band of Three found something in Kirkwall...hints of something...it just wouldn't surprise me if that something was related to the assault on the lofty city of rotten Twinkies. I think there is a cover-up, and the long legacy of slavery and Tevinter rule in Kirkwall has, for now, hidden the truths lying deep within.

But - fluff and speculation. And a bunch of scrawled parchment from the Band of Three. And hints of a Hellmouth. And way too much theorizing to allow me to retain my sanity.

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Everyone assumed the lyrium idol was dwarven and we know for a fact it's not depicting dwarves.

No we don't. We know the idol we found in the Thaig isn't depicting Dwarves, but Meredith's idol is not the same as the idol that was brought to the King of Orzammar.

The one that wound up in Meredith's office, likely next to a knife and a straw, is the one I meant.  I just mean that no one ever went, "hey, these aren't dwarves.  WTF?" when it was discovered.  But they still seemed to consider the thaig dwarven.  Also after finding the elven ring, even though no one in the group knows about the Cadash Thaig discovery (which hasn't been made yet anyway).

Well Bartrand did say nothing about the Thaig made any sense. Who even knows why that idol was made, or why it speaks to people (personally I believe everything that has to do with that thaig is connected to the Darkspawn in some way. And I'm willing to bet the Wardens feel the same way).

The Thaig itself I believe has giant statues that look like Dwarves, but in some sort of weird clothing. I can't remember.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well Bartrand did say nothing about the Thaig made any sense. Who even knows why that idol was made, or why it speaks to people (personally I believe everything that has to do with that thaig is connected to the Darkspawn in some way. And I'm willing to bet the Wardens feel the same way).

The Thaig itself I believe has giant statues that look like Dwarves, but in some sort of weird clothing. I can't remember.

Only if dwarves have an avian ancestor (and in which case, my new favorite race). There were two kinds of statues. One was of a cloaked figure that seemed to have a beak, and the other was... not humanoid.

[Gespenst]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding the Chantry covering up Tevinter's evil ways - could it be that whatever the Tevinter mages (?) were doing in Kirkwall would refute the Chantry teachings? We have the whole hellmouth concept - now, this goes back to some other hazy theories I have, but what if the "doorway" to the golden-black city was in or under Kirkwall (not necessaril the front door - could be a side access). Would the chantry want everyone knowing that location or knowing how that door was opened? We know that slaves were part of the ritual/process/ what have you to get into the golden-black city. Well, where in Thedas do we know there were a slew of slaves...? And where is the torment of said slaves evident in stark basrelief and statuary?

A somewhat simpler explanation:

Perhaps whatever was done there was repeatable. They thought that if someone found out what had happened there someone might try again. They can't detroy the sigils without demolishing the city and even if it didn't work hundreds or thousands might get sacrificed trying to get it to work... and the veil might get torn in the process.

... Damn. I find myself hoping that's proof the timelines are off so this can still be possible. Loss of objectivity is not conductive to good reasoning. =/

Well there's a letter in there indicating that everything happened around 1004TE so unless there's a few hundred extra years between the end of the first blight and the start of the Divine Age...

V zvff ebg13. Erzvaqf zr bs gur byq Hfrarg qnlf, jura vg jnf hfrq sbe zrffntr obneqf engure guna cvengvat grenolgrf bs cbea. Abg gung V'z pbzcynvavat nobhg gur ynggre, zvaq lbh...

Vg'f cerggl hahfhny gb svaq nalbar jub unf rira urneq bs ebg13 - bhgfvqr bs zngu be pelcgbybtl fghqragf V thrff...

I just mean that no one ever went, "hey, these aren't dwarves. WTF?" when it was discovered. But they still seemed to consider the thaig dwarven. Also after finding the elven ring, even though no one in the group knows about the Cadash Thaig discovery (which hasn't been made yet anyway).

Which time? It was discovered twice - once while Cadesh Thaig still stood but it wasn't written down by the shapers so it never happened.

[Macropodmum]

I still believe (and reasons for it in the Golden City post) that the Golden City was never in the fade and that it may have been Arlathan with a magical barrier that the magisters punched through at Dumat's bidding

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If elves caused the downfall of dwarves, we can look to the Primeval Thaig for clues. Although, that must have been the ancient civilization of dwarves. Somehow, I don't think this could be what was meant. 

Maybe the idol was a type of trojan horse from the elves in that case...

Modifié par Macropodmum, 12 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well Bartrand did say nothing about the Thaig made any sense. Who even knows why that idol was made, or why it speaks to people (personally I believe everything that has to do with that thaig is connected to the Darkspawn in some way. And I'm willing to bet the Wardens feel the same way).

The Thaig itself I believe has giant statues that look like Dwarves, but in some sort of weird clothing. I can't remember.

Only if dwarves have an avian ancestor (and in which case, my new favorite race). There were two kinds of statues. One was of a cloaked figure that seemed to have a beak, and the other was... not humanoid.

Maybe the Dwarves were like the Zunanma

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 02:18 .

[MichaelFinnegan]

Rifneno wrote...

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

Well, what is to say that he ever built anything? He might have just brought the Anvil from somewhere.

Hmm. That's a possibility I never considered. Nice.

I think, like the Eluvians, the Anvil of the Void is an acquired relic, from an age long lost.

They would, I suppose. But could they be trained to become warriors? Can they even fight?

I don't know... we've never seen one try. But if they were ordered to do it, I can't see why not. The biggest obstacle I'd think would be that they seem rather lethargic.

Almost as if all spirit and motivation to do things is knocked out of those tranquil. What remains is an empty shell of a being. I wonder, could this be one way a spirit ends up permanently in the Fade, as opposed to going somewhere else (say, after death)?

Well, technically, dwarves can regain that connection. Not sure whether tranquils can do that. But I'm suspecting what the templars do to make them tranquil is something of a more insidious nature, something entirely different.

I suspect you're right. Judging by Karl's reaction to Justice, my belief has been that people's souls or spirits or whatever are in another plane. Maybe the Fade, maybe even beyond that. And the RoT severs that connection. Perhaps the reason dwarves can't do magic is that their "souls" are actually in their bodies, in the mortal world.

... Hmm. Here's a longshot to consider. What if dwarves are like that because they're the only race actually native to Thedas? Humans and Kossith/Qunari both just kind of appeared from Par Vollen. Elves' history is far too old to know the origin of. People have wondered if the Qunari are actually from another world or dimension because they just popped out of nowhere one day. But the few records left from the first human/elven contact says the same thing: they just came out of Par Vollen.

Perhaps. But I can only speculate on, anchoring myself to some of the things we do know of, what could be happening with mortals and the Fade. I think it has to do something with the Veil though.

Thinking more on it, when people dream, in that subconscious state their spirits are supposed to end up in the Fade. So, in this "spirit" state the Veil is not a barrier, and it is in this state that beings can naturally cross the Veil from the mortal realm into the Fade, unencumbered. But, when they are conscious, the Veil is a definite barrier - because the spirit and the body are no longer differentiable. This tells me that this Veil has somewhat of a semipermeable nature, metaphysically of course. So this is proabably what happens going from the mortal-side to the Fade-side.

In the reverse direction, going from the Fade to the mortal realm, the Veil in its strongest form is very much a barrier. Spirits from the Fade cannot cross it. (This is going slightly off, but I wanted to make a note of it anyway: But what the spirits of the Fade can do however is possess a body. What this would mean,  I suppose, is that as the spirit of a person roams the Fade, another spirit can take its place in that "temporarily abandoned" body - either destroying the original spirit or replacing it - in which case the original spirit of the person would be doomed to roam the Fade. The latter is what we probably observed with Connor in DAO, with his original spirit intact.)

Now, with the dwarves I'd suspect something else is at work. When they dream, their spirits will not enter the Fade. For their spirits the Veil continues to be a barrier. A barrier that will need to be overcome by other means. During the Broken Circle quest, the spirit of a dwarf can be pushed by that sloth demon into the Fade; meaning the barrier that is the Veil is artifically and forcefully breached.

With the tranquil, maybe, just maybe their spirits are severed permanently from their bodies. Either the spirit is killed off, or some mental barrier is set up that would not allow it to come back into the body, or even recognize to which body it belongs to. Looking at Karl in DA2, I'd say a mental barrier was probably set up.

Well, we'll see what further these Primeval Thaigs reveal. And there is the Sandal mystery.

I'd be surprised if there are more of them. And Sandal is Commander Shepard.

I'm sure we'll see more of these Primeval Thaigs. Don't ask me why, but it is a strong hunch I have.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Macropodmum wrote...

I still believe (and reasons for it in the Golden City post) that the Golden City was never in the fade and that it may have been Arlathan with a magical barrier that the magisters punched through at Dumat's bidding

The only thing I could say against it is that black form in the Fade. We'll need to explain it somehow. But, probably, that thing in the Fade might not have any relation to the Golden City at all. Impossible to say at this point.

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

If elves caused the downfall of dwarves, we can look to the Primeval Thaig for clues. Although, that must have been the ancient civilization of dwarves. Somehow, I don't think this could be what was meant. 

Maybe the idol was a type of trojan horse from the elves in that case...

Quite possible and it is an interesting thought.