365 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

Flemeth has already begun her conversion !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 août 2011 - 10:11 .

[Serpieri Nei]

It seems people want the unique armors because they are better looking than the cut/paste armors. And in reality most of the companions were just wearing clothes that can be purchased from a tailor shop or handmade. So there is nothing unique about them. Now, if we were talking about a suit of armor made of gold, encrusted in gems, and bearing the marks of a lost order. Now that is unique if only one set exists.

What people really want is for their companions to look cool, daring, heroic, a **** (yes, I'm looking at you Issabella), a shrew, a ladies’ man, and the list goes on. Nothing unique about that, because it's not the appearance of the character that defines their traits. Or is it style that people really mean. Does that companion prefer to wear armor that is lighter shade of grey, or feathers on the shoulders, or loose fitting clothes?

At the end of day do I remember the companions for their taste in clothing and armor? Or do I remember them for their actions, the shared dialogue, the friendship forged?, and the hours spent adventuring. Bioware needs to stop making Generic Armor A, B, and C those are bought n bulk by for people that need to equip hundreds of soldiers and not their companion who thinks that fighting a dragon with just the shirt on his/her back is prudent.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 05 août 2011 - 10:17 .

[willholt]

nedpepper wrote...

rak72 wrote...

^^^ That's all great, but why can't we include the option of putting whatever we want to on her. Like I said, it's our own game, why should Mike Laidlaw have his knickers in a bunch if Morrigan is wearing plate armor.

I'll quote Morrigan from Origins: 

"If one more person asks me if I'd like a new set of clothes, I  will burn this house down."

Putting Morrigan in armor makes zero sense and strips her of her personality, identity, and actually BREAKS immersion.  The fact that she actually states it furthers my point.

If that's how you want to play your game, that's fine ... But if the option to change armour is there, and that's how I want to play the game, why should MY changing Morrigan's clothes in MY game break YOUR immersion?

I say this because I get the impression you don't want the option to customise armour to be there PERIOD, even if you already have the option to keep a distinct appearance on a character.

[NedPepper]

FieryDove wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I'll quote Morrigan from Origins: 

"If one more person asks me if I'd like a new set of clothes, I  will burn this house down."

Putting Morrigan in armor makes zero sense and strips her of her personality, identity, and actually BREAKS immersion.  The fact that she actually states it furthers my point.

What did she say to you when you made her a spirit healer?

What did she say when you gave her a new staff?

What did she say when you gave her some +con instead of +magic?

What did she say when you told her to attack that dragon?

What did she say when you told her to move over there or hold ground?

What...what...what? 

See, I think I just found the root of the argument.  I NEVER made Morrigan a spirit healer, even if I wasn't using Wynne?  Why?  Because I thought it was out of character for her. 

Weapons are different.  Hell, most of the staffs look the same. 

And controlling the companion in battle is completely different than changing the companion's personality by trying to force them into being something the dialogue and presentation declares they are not. 

Basically, you want the freedom to put Morrigan in a Chantry robe, just because YOU want to.   I don't get that.  But, hey, they want opinions, and maybe yours will be the one they listen to.  I'm just giving my own.

[Sylvianus]

When did the mages say that they can't put  armors ? Look Flemeth.

Apostates can dress as they want. They can wear armor if they desire. Mage-warrior class, remember in dao ?

  The only people who wear robes are those who do obey to the chantry.

[Wulfram]

I think picking up Spirit Healer makes quite a bit of sense for Morrigan. Flemeth appears to have had both dealings with spirits and notable healing capabilities.

Leliana apparently manages to talk Morrigan into a chantry robe as part of the plan to break the Warden out of Fort Drakon.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Master Shiori wrote...

Anarya wrote...

What I'd like to see in DA3 is a compromise. Make companions' armor unique, but give us a selection of unique armors for each character and let us choose which one to equip.

This please.

I don't want to go back to companions wearing generic armor number 234987 with a different color scheme, but at the same time it would be nice to have control over which armor they'll wear at a given time.

As long as that control includes what type of armour they're wearing, that would be fine.

Ideally I'd like full control over their equipment and appearance, but at the very least I want to be able to put the Rogues in heavy armour if I think that's appropriate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nedpepper wrote...

Because it's out of character. The companions have a set personality. You interact with them, but you don't CONTROL them. 

But I do control them.  I make them cast spells, and equip weapons, and implement tactics, and learn new abilities and even acquire specialisations.

Not being able to do this one thing - squip armour - makes no sense.

As for your Morrigan example, why she says that line could differ from playthrough to playthrough based on what she's wearing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

nedpepper wrote...

See, I think I just found the root of the argument.  I NEVER made Morrigan a spirit healer, even if I wasn't using Wynne?  Why?  Because I thought it was out of character for her.

Right, so if equipping new armour for her breaks your immersion, then you shouldn't do it.

[Serpieri Nei]

Wulfram wrote...

I think picking up Spirit Healer makes quite a bit of sense for Morrigan. Flemeth appears to have had both dealings with spirits and notable healing capabilities.

Leliana apparently manages to talk Morrigan into a chantry robe as part of the plan to break the Warden out of Fort Drakon.

Blasphemy

Long Live the Broma Brothers.

[NedPepper]

Wulfram wrote...

I think picking up Spirit Healer makes quite a bit of sense for Morrigan. Flemeth appears to have had both dealings with spirits and notable healing capabilities.

Leliana apparently manages to talk Morrigan into a chantry robe as part of the plan to break the Warden out of Fort Drakon.

The second argument is a weak one.  Morrigan was trying to appear as someone else dictated by the story.

The first....well, I'll agree to disagree.  Morrigan is pretty clear that you should kill demons.

And this is basically turning into an old argument of "I want the game to go back to being Dragon Age: Origins."  I have no interest in having another argument about that.  I posted earlier in this thread about compromise that gives players more options of clothing or amour.  I want too see the compromise.  What I don't want is to go back to the same models for everyone and characters wearing whatever drab armor they pick up.  That's just me.

[Remmirath]

With a choice between something more akin to what we had in DA II or a rollback to Origins, I would definitely pick the rollback. The DA II system was extremely annoying to me the whole way through.

Now, some particular pieces of equipment that couldn't be changed I would not mind - given the story behind it, it made sense to me that Varric wouldn't use a crossbow other than Bianca, for instance. If there is no compelling reason for it, however, it annoys me.
(I also rather dislikle the auto-levelling items unless they would be very highly magical and have a reason for it. If you can upgrade weapons, that's cool, but the auto-levelling I don't like.) 

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I would almost like to see it where armor pieces you acquire originally don't fit ANYONE and have to be sized for a given character at a forge or armor shop, so you have to make some decisions about who is going to wear what, not just cycle the same suit through your entire party as you acquire different stuff.  They could even combine this with the "unique look" thing by having different armor look different on different people due to the "resizing" effect.  I'd also like to see more tradeoffs in bonuses--some items being mediocre in one department but having some outrageously huge bonus that makes it desirable to keep using it.  As it is, though, generally the highest-armor-value stuff has the best bonuses, too, so you never have that point where you have to decide "do I want more armor, or is it more important for me to keep wearing the +15% critical chance piece so I can have 100% crit?"

I'd like that way of doing things a lot, actually - even better than the old way. It would definitely make sense for things such as full plate. If you could put things like leather armour or chainmail on anyone without fitting them to the character - but with some sort of penalty if you didn't - that would work also work well, I think. I also agree about the tradeoffs.

[Sylvianus]

There is no argument in favor of origin. It's just your problem about the choice of another player who doesn't fit.

Whether you like it or not, this is OUR team. The player's team, not the hero's team. We decide their evolution, we choose the path with their point,we give them orders, we decide if they turn healer or blood mage.

It will be also us who we will decide what they wear. Dragon age is based on a team that we control.

It is a matter of choice, freedom, fun, gameplay.

Visual art can be accepted as equally important as a concept. But that's all.

Make no mistake about priorities.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 août 2011 - 10:39 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

In some of the greatest rpg's of all time (a.k.a. KOTOR and the Baldur's Gate series for the purposes of this thread), you could equip your companions with whatever armor you wanted as long as they met the requirements. Guess what? Immersion was not broken. The companions were still awesome and had amazing personalities and I didn't care what they wore. I was "emotionally engaged" in the game (for you, Ray Muzyka). Interacting with the companions was a joy because the game relied on the story and dialogue to flesh out the companions' personalities, not their outfits. A hallmark of rpg's is that they are very customisable for different players and playthroughs. You can have varying levels of it, but DA2 went 10 steps backwards from DA:O in regards to customization, particularly with the companions.

[FieryDove]

These are party-based RPG's. The party members are extensions of the PC. we decide everything from what to attack, where to move, what misc gear to wear, weapons to use, abilites and stats but equipping armor is immersion breaking? I don't get it.

If this was diablo2 then yeah. I don't like extra walking backpacks. I like real party based rpg's. Yes I am weird.

[Savber100]

nedpepper wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I'll quote Morrigan from Origins: 

"If one more person asks me if I'd like a new set of clothes, I  will burn this house down."

Putting Morrigan in armor makes zero sense and strips her of her personality, identity, and actually BREAKS immersion.  The fact that she actually states it furthers my point.

What did she say to you when you made her a spirit healer?

What did she say when you gave her a new staff?

What did she say when you gave her some +con instead of +magic?

What did she say when you told her to attack that dragon?

What did she say when you told her to move over there or hold ground?

What...what...what? 

See, I think I just found the root of the argument.  I NEVER made Morrigan a spirit healer, even if I wasn't using Wynne?  Why?  Because I thought it was out of character for her. 

Weapons are different.  Hell, most of the staffs look the same. 

And controlling the companion in battle is completely different than changing the companion's personality by trying to force them into being something the dialogue and presentation declares they are not. 

Basically, you want the freedom to put Morrigan in a Chantry robe, just because YOU want to.   I don't get that.  But, hey, they want opinions, and maybe yours will be the one they listen to.  I'm just giving my own.

Choices my friend... choices. 

It doesn't break immersion because I have the choice not to do something that I feel will break immersion.  If anything, my immersion in DA2 was broken as your companions wore the exact same clothes for almost a decade. 

If you really hate it that much, I propose a compromise. Let us still equip any costume we want but let the companion react accordingly. If I give Varric a dress, let him wear it but with the obvious snarky comment. The choice of clothing can also have possible negative repercussions on skills etc. 

Put chantry clothes on Morrigan, she gets -10 on magic etc. 

We just freedom in choosing and deciding for ourselves rather than having the devs decide on which clothing is suitable. 

See? Not that hard. 

Modifié par Savber100, 05 août 2011 - 11:00 .

[NedPepper]

FieryDove wrote...

These are party-based RPG's. The party members are extensions of the PC. we decide everything from what to attack, where to move, what misc gear to wear, weapons to use, abilites and stats but equipping armor is immersion breaking? I don't get it.

If this was diablo2 then yeah. I don't like extra walking backpacks. I like real party based rpg's. Yes I am weird.

I get THAT.  As I said, putting Oghren and Sten in differenet armors didn't change anything.  It would have been GREAT if Leliana and Zevran had actual choices of outfits to put them in. 

Really this is an argument about one character or a type of character: The Morrigans and the Varrics.  Can you honestly see Varric wearing a piece of armor?  Honestly?  Avenline?  Sure.  Fenris?  I wanted to put something else on Fenris.  That's why we were talking about modifications and alternate outfits that you unlock, find, etc.  Having one character, though, that is untouchable...is that really so horrible?

And I maintain that Morrigan is not Morigan wearing anything other than her Witch of the Wilds garb or the "updated version".   BUT, if Morrigan would have had other outfits that seemed to fit her character, then I don't see a problem.  Don't assume I don't understand what party based rpgs are about.  But I also try and respect the characters' persona as a part of the conflict of playing an rpg.  It's what MAKES Morrigan such a popular character. Varric, too.

[FieryDove]

nedpepper wrote...

 It would have been GREAT if Leliana and Zevran had actual choices of outfits to put them in. 

Um they did? I don't understand.

 Don't assume I don't understand what party based rpgs are about.  But I also try and respect the characters' persona as a part of the conflict of playing an rpg.  It's what MAKES Morrigan such a popular character. Varric, too.

I was born snarky and apologize if I seemed...patronizing it wasn't my intention.

I disagree on what makes a character. If Varric was silent and had no dialogue at all would you still like him?
I liked him for what his character was through dialogue/interactions and the story not because his chest hair was awesome. Although that is a plus like glowy companions.

[Zanallen]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

It seems people want the unique armors because they are better looking than the cut/paste armors. And in reality most of the companions were just wearing clothes that can be purchased from a tailor shop or handmade. So there is nothing unique about them. Now, if we were talking about a suit of armor made of gold, encrusted in gems, and bearing the marks of a lost order. Now that is unique if only one set exists.

What people really want is for their companions to look cool, daring, heroic, a **** (yes, I'm looking at you Issabella), a shrew, a ladies’ man, and the list goes on. Nothing unique about that, because it's not the appearance of the character that defines their traits. Or is it style that people really mean. Does that companion prefer to wear armor that is lighter shade of grey, or feathers on the shoulders, or loose fitting clothes?

At the end of day do I remember the companions for their taste in clothing and armor? Or do I remember them for their actions, the shared dialogue, the friendship forged?, and the hours spent adventuring. Bioware needs to stop making Generic Armor A, B, and C those are bought n bulk by for people that need to equip hundreds of soldiers and not their companion who thinks that fighting a dragon with just the shirt on his/her back is prudent.

I just like my companions have unique body types, something that isn't really possible if the game has to support armor being interchangable.

[Sylvianus]

It's about fun. The customization must be mainly a reason out of game to satisfy the player.

What I find horrible is saying that we can not decide what clothes our companions wear when we decide everything, when the game is centered on a team.. This is the worst justification I ever read in this area.

If you want a real integrity of your character, it will have to turn from an RPG to an adventure game which do not allow us anything on them. And then I can agree with that statement.

Obviously I will not buy a game as limited and uninteresting.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 août 2011 - 11:14 .

[Zanallen]

FieryDove wrote...

Um they did? I don't understand.

Not unless you took them out of light armor. Pretty much all of the light armor looked the same and it was all awful.

[Anarya]

FieryDove wrote...
[snip]
I disagree on what makes a character. If Varric was silent and had no dialogue at all would you still like him?
I liked him for what his character was through dialogue/interactions and the story not because his chest hair was awesome. Although that is a plus like glowy companions.

Honestly, yes, I probably would like Varric if he were silent. Because he looks like the awesome dude that he is. Of course, he's much better with dialogue. Character design and writing are both important, and they should support and enhance each other. It's possible to have one without the other, certainly. In text-only formats of course there are no visuals, and there are rare comics and movies that have no dialogue. But videogames make use of both, and therefore in my mind, both should be valued.

[NedPepper]

Leliana and Zevran had very limited choices when it came to other outfits. Basically, they all looked the same. Unless you were to change their entire build with stats, (and get that pesky fatigue penalty for putting them in anything other than those drab rogue outfits), there wasn't much choice. Honestly, I always wanted Leliana to wear something that showed her love of the Maker, but besides the stat-less Chantry robe, there was nothing.

So, in a case like Leliana, I'd have actully preferred just one outfit that was true to her personality. Zevran, on the other hand, looked fine in the rogue garb. In a lot of ways, it felt like he WAS wearing one outfit the whole game, just with slightly different colors.

[Serpieri Nei]

Zanallen wrote...

Serpieri Nei wrote...

It seems people want the unique armors because they are better looking than the cut/paste armors. And in reality most of the companions were just wearing clothes that can be purchased from a tailor shop or handmade. So there is nothing unique about them. Now, if we were talking about a suit of armor made of gold, encrusted in gems, and bearing the marks of a lost order. Now that is unique if only one set exists.

What people really want is for their companions to look cool, daring, heroic, a **** (yes, I'm looking at you Issabella), a shrew, a ladies’ man, and the list goes on. Nothing unique about that, because it's not the appearance of the character that defines their traits. Or is it style that people really mean. Does that companion prefer to wear armor that is lighter shade of grey, or feathers on the shoulders, or loose fitting clothes?

At the end of day do I remember the companions for their taste in clothing and armor? Or do I remember them for their actions, the shared dialogue, the friendship forged?, and the hours spent adventuring. Bioware needs to stop making Generic Armor A, B, and C those are bought n bulk by for people that need to equip hundreds of soldiers and not their companion who thinks that fighting a dragon with just the shirt on his/her back is prudent.

I just like my companions have unique body types, something that isn't really possible if the game has to support armor being interchangable.

It is possible in Origins.

It isn't possible in DA2 becuase they didn't create the wire messhes for them. You can use a mod that will let you gear your companions in DA2. However, the armor look will not appear on the elves or the dwarves, just on the humans.

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 05 août 2011 - 11:22 .

[Kileyan]

I am fine with Bioware deciding that a set couple of distinctive character looks are required by them. If dev time and/or money says they can only have one looks with a few variations, I can even live with that.

I just want one compromise, even if it isn't 'realistic'.

If that npc companion is a warrior, let me equip them with any heavy armor I find, even if it doesn't change their looks, rogue light armor, etc. Items in DA2 were very uninteresting as it was, exacerbated by every item being Hawke only, and likely not even usable by the Hawke you were playing.

Please don't remove equiping companions just because a subset of your possible new fans, can't be bothered to do so.

Modifié par Kileyan, 05 août 2011 - 11:23 .