365 réponses à ce sujet

[wildannie]

 I've not read all the post so apologies for any repetition.

I really liked the unique look of the DA2 companions and would not really like to return to the system in Origins. 

What I would like is for upgrades to alter the appearance of their equipment over the course of the game and as has been mentioned earlier in the thread (I did read some of it ) I would also be happy  for there to be alternative outfits for each character that could be found or purchased.

It would be nice if we could choose from different kinds of upgrades and swap them rather than how they worked in DA2.  I'd prefer it if they worked more like runes.  It would be good if runes altered the look of the equipment too.

[ipgd]

tmp7704 wrote...

However if you're going to go for the angle that the crap is dominant and it gets free pass, this imo works against your point. If something is incredibly important, it doesn't get free pass, especially on mass scale.

I'm not saying crap gets a free pass. I'm saying that while crap can be published successfully, and  people often don't know what crap looks like and are willing to overlook crap given other redeeming aspects of the work (especially in the field of sequential art where the writing is the backbone of the work), that does not mean it's not something character designs specifically are judged by.

Certainly, i'm not denying this is something which increases quality of the piece. My argument is instead over whether that improvement is on the level where it'd warrant saying it's something incredibly important. (and consequently, whether it's something that can be really said to be on the level of "you must make companions bodies different or it's totally /wrist time")

In the context of character design, yes, it's absolutely incredibly important. Like, abc, 123, "this is the first phrase out of your professor's mouth" level fundamental. Whether or not it outweighs the gameplay benefits of customizable armor is an entirely different argument (and I believe it does, but, again, separate issue).

Virtually identical, no. Similar enough in build that the differences aren't immediately apparent, especially when wearing similar clothes?

Again -- live action is different, because real people have an incredibly high level of detail. From their faces alone, I can tell those men apart. Reduce that to a bunch of low poly models or a highly simplified line drawing and the characters in that scene would be drawn or rendered differently specifically because you would have difficulty telling them apart. They would either be given different outfits, or deliberately designed so the shapes of their heads and bodies would be easily distinguishable from other characters in the absense of highly precise facial details. Because live action is not character design.

ORANGES AND BIKE TIRES !!!!

[Sylvianus]

Wizz wrote...

I'm tired of these 'unique', 'personal' and other style-is-the-only-true-answer things. I want to be able to give my teammates new armor, I can accept some compromise variant like 3-4 sets of armor for each teammate accessible through special forge/seek/trade quests. Everything is better than "we are friends now and I'll be wearing some better armor".

Obtaining a better armor shouldn't be conditioned by social relations. I agree.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 04 août 2011 - 05:49 .

[Cutlass Jack]

My thoughts on the topic: I prefer my companions having their own distinctive looks and body types. Keeps everyone from looking generic in build.

But what I would like is a separation of Visual and stats. For example, give each companion a number of unlockable outfits in addition to the base.  Make it so one outfit unlocks on Friendship path, Another on Rivalry, and possibly a third on Romance if you're feeling ambitous. Make these outfits stay unlocked on an Account-wide basis so you can use them right away on subsequent playthroughs.

This would only affect the visuals, and likely be chosen through the character select screen (like ME2)

Statwise, I'd give the companions exactly the same equipment slots as the player. Just not have those slots affect the visual. So those great suits of armor you find don't go to waste and you can really customize their performance to suit your taste.

[Anarya]

I just want to thank ipgd here for taking up the "character design is important!" flag for me so I don't have to go off on my standard character design rant again. Thanks for taking one for the team, buddy!

Edit: live action costume design is an entirely different ball of wax and not really analogous to character design, but you probably don't wanna get me started on costume design.

Modifié par Anarya, 04 août 2011 - 05:57 .

[Anarya]

ARGH quote is not edit

Modifié par Anarya, 04 août 2011 - 05:56 .

[Saintthanksgiving]

Take the shephard armor in ME2, with the ability to mix and match pieces from different sets...
THEN strip out all stats and bonuses to make it a purely cosmetic choice
THEN reintroduce the stats and bonuses through runes ans enchqntments.

Do the same with weapons.

For companions, limit their choices or provide character specific components to choose from

[happy_daiz]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My thoughts on the topic: I prefer my companions having their own distinctive looks and body types. Keeps everyone from looking generic in build.

But what I would like is a separation of Visual and stats. For example, give each companion a number of unlockable outfits in addition to the base.  Make it so one outfit unlocks on Friendship path, Another on Rivalry, and possibly a third on Romance if you're feeling ambitous. Make these outfits stay unlocked on an Account-wide basis so you can use them right away on subsequent playthroughs.

This would only affect the visuals, and likely be chosen through the character select screen (like ME2)

Statwise, I'd give the companions exactly the same equipment slots as the player. Just not have those slots affect the visual. So those great suits of armor you find don't go to waste and you can really customize their performance to suit your taste.

^This

It always annoyed me in DAO that Leliana (and sometimes Wynne and Morrigan) looked like my character if she had similar armor. If I was assigning commands during combat, half of the time, I would mistakenly start playing as Leliana instead of my Warden. I'd rather each one had their own distinct look, and I love Jack's idea about different outfits based on Friendship/Rival/Romance.

[LordBegrezen]

I have a rather simple suggestion.
Keep the iconic looks of our companions, but still let us change their armor. Just have them change their style and colour a little according to the material. For example if I dress Isabela in Drakeskin rouge armor, she basically keeps her normal body model but the colours are changed a bit to look like drakeskin. This should not be too complicated for the developers, but it would make loot interesting again. It would also add a layer of decision.
The rune system in DA2 did not work well, because I could just equip ALL companions with fire res. runes before fighting the high dragon. That was a no-brainer. It would be more interesting if I had only one or two pieces of fire res. armor and had to think about who should wear it.

Sorry for any misspellings.

[Atakuma]

Each companion should have several base armors with modular upgrades that can be found or bought. Things like, pauldrons, chest plates, and gauntlets can be applied over the base outfit to modify both stats and visual appearance, with even further tweaks made via enchantment.

Modifié par Atakuma, 04 août 2011 - 06:18 .

[Anyroad2]

I liked the way the apperance of companion armor was done in DA2, for the same reasons as a number of people in this thread. It allowed them to have somewhat unique whole body models, and a sense of style.

Again, as others in this thread are saying... it would be great to see multiple, unique outfits for our companions. Whether those are direct upgrades or not. I mean, it would be pretty nice to upgrade a companions armor and then be able to choose between a certain number of looks. Oh, how I wish I could have done that with Merril and her Romance outfit... I much preferred her original DA2 armor.

[Giltspur]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My thoughts on the topic: I prefer my companions having their own distinctive looks and body types. Keeps everyone from looking generic in build.

But what I would like is a separation of Visual and stats. For example, give each companion a number of unlockable outfits in addition to the base.  Make it so one outfit unlocks on Friendship path, Another on Rivalry, and possibly a third on Romance if you're feeling ambitous. Make these outfits stay unlocked on an Account-wide basis so you can use them right away on subsequent playthroughs.

This would only affect the visuals, and likely be chosen through the character select screen (like ME2)

Statwise, I'd give the companions exactly the same equipment slots as the player. Just not have those slots affect the visual. So those great suits of armor you find don't go to waste and you can really customize their performance to suit your taste.

I would be perfectly happy with this approach.  That said, I'm fine with upgrades making trivial changes to the look such as recolors and such.  Whatever the case, I do however want the "stat twiddle" without having to sacrifice a character's distinctive look or style.

Modifié par Giltspur, 04 août 2011 - 06:22 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Bioware should take a page from DC Online/Aion. Both games allowed you to wear multiple armor sets/pieces with the ability to display which piece that would be shown visually.

A system like this would be very beneficial for both parties and also allow for a crafting system where the player can build armor/weapons and choose which in game model they want for it.

[King Cousland]

In DAII all armour loot was restricted to Hawke. In DAIII, what I'd support is finding loot which was restricted to companions, so their armour stats could vary, while they retained a unique style.

Failing that, perhaps we could equip apparel of our choice, but it would appear as though companions were wearing their own set? For example, I could equip plate armour on Aveline, but it would appear as though she were wearing her Guard Cpatain armour. 

Modifié par harkness72, 04 août 2011 - 06:38 .

[Addai]

Sylvianus wrote...

Wizz wrote...

I'm tired of these 'unique', 'personal' and other style-is-the-only-true-answer things. I want to be able to give my teammates new armor, I can accept some compromise variant like 3-4 sets of armor for each teammate accessible through special forge/seek/trade quests. Everything is better than "we are friends now and I'll be wearing some better armor".

Obtaining a better armor shouldn't be conditioned by social relations. I agree.

Agreed.  It makes more sense and is more satisfying to find companion armors as part of quest rewards, than tied to relationship status.  Then you can play it realistically- we found this piece of armor in X ruin, or else we got rich from X quest and the NPC gets a better kit as a result.

I like having choices, and I like fiddling.  I understand that people who find this tedious don't want to have to do it, but when the option is removed (not just managing inventory but also crafting) then it removes a substantial part of what I enjoy in playing an RPG.  It would be nice to have a middle ground where people who don't want to be bothered can "auto-level" equipment as they are able to auto-level stats, and people who want more hands-on control are not forced to be streamlined.

[Darth Wraith]

I don't mind companions having a "fixed" look throughout the game, but I'd love to see a handful of outfits with similar looks but different stats, much like Annah and Fall-From-Grace in Planescape: Torment. Also, you should be able to equip at least boots and gloves in addition to belts, rings and amulets.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

I'm not saying crap gets a free pass. I'm saying that while crap can be published successfully, and  people often don't know what crap looks like and are willing to overlook crap (..)

Isn't that effectively getting a free pass?

In the context of character design, yes, it's absolutely incredibly important. Like, abc, 123, "this is the first phrase out of your professor's mouth" level fundamental.

Except this alleged incredible importance isn't really confirmed by the reception -- in the sense as long as its presence (or lack thereof) doesn't appear to affect said reception in noticeable manner... why is it so important, exactly?

Again -- live action is different, because real people have an incredibly high level of detail. From their faces alone, I can tell those men apart.

... I'm (and have been the entire time) talking about the slight variation in the body build, ones which might be used to discern between individuals provided one squints hard enough. That is what i thought you were defending as absolutely extremely crucial to the point where it's worth discarding armour customization over. That you out of the blue --to me-- include faces here as means to tell these people apart makes me wonder if perhaps we're talking about two very different things?

[twincast]

DA:O's magically morphing armor system wasn't ideal, but of all the armor systems I'm aware of I think it's still the best.

I'm pretty sure not even Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Neverwinter Nights had malus stats for armor that wasn't specially fitted to the character, let alone made for a race of a (significantly) different size. Would add to immersion, but I've got to admit I don't think that's really worth the hassle in a computer game.

Then again, ME1 did racial armor well. (The inventory was ridiculously cumbersome to navigate and beyond ugly, but the armor and weapon system in itself was nearly perfect.)

Anyway, having, let's say, three different armors per companion character isn't that much better than a sole outfit in terms of players' individualization and making loot useful. It could work if it got segmented, though. Take ME2 Shepard's N7 armor parts, multiply them by two or three and give that attention to every (potential) party member and I'd be content. For me to be happy, though, I'd have to be able to switch them between characters, but I guess that would ruin the characters' oh-so-sacred distinctive looks.

However, especially to keep finding loot while preventing it from being useless, armor should be freely exchangeable at least (in the name of cost reduction) between members of the same species. And a mere repaint doesn't fly because for example Isabela's dress with a drakescale texture looks plain silly. Ideally it would retain some distinctive accessory of Isabela's (I'm thinking her sash), while still wearing all the equipped armor pieces. But that admittedly sounds like a financial nightmare.

On the other hand, BioWare could just adapt their engine to allow for different armors more easily (adaptive meshes, armor actually getting put onto the body instead of replacing it).

[Xewaka]

Anarya wrote...
I just want to thank ipgd here for taking up the "character design is important!" flag for me so I don't have to go off on my standard character design rant again. Thanks for taking one for the team, buddy!

My follow up question is: How important is character design compared to gameplay? The fixed attire (coupled with the removal of access to skill trees to mantain the integrity of said fixed aspects) reduced a lot of possibilities in party composition and customization, thus destroying many chances of replay for trying off the box party buildings and non-traditidional builds. In my book, destroying this basic part of gameplay is not worth the looks, not when the characters are much better defined by their copious amount of dialogue. I know, "videogames are a visual medium". You know what else they are? Interactive. Do not keep us from interacting in the name of so called "characterization".

Modifié par Xewaka, 04 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[Willybot]

It would come down to just how much time-money the can devote to this particular feature. My ideal would be to allow each companion to have their own unique models and have every piece of appearance-altering gear adapt itself for said model. This is in addition, perhaps, to a unique gear-set that would be whole unique to the character and upgrades in both appearance and stats depending based on storyline.

This is a great deal of work I imagine, so *expecting* this level of dynamic detail is unreasonable. Unless the development time/budget is increased significantly over DA2's, I'd say that that level of detail is unreasonable for about any aspect.

However since I'm wishing for the sake of wishing, I'd think the above suggestion would satisfy a great deal of people.

[Serpieri Nei]

What I find interesting is people want fixed looks for the companions so that it doesn't take away from their uniqueness but when it comes to the player we aren't as special to be blessed with a single armor set?

Biggest Problem with Fixed Sets is that it forces the player to build his character or the companion around the armor, instead of building the character on what the player wants to do.

[happy_daiz]

During my first playthrough, I was deluded into thinking that when I found a companion armor upgrade, it would make a difference visually, but sadly, that isn't the case. Why not just do it exactly the way it was done in DA2 (unique companion armor), but when I get Isabela her Supportive Corselet, show me the corselet. When I get Merril's Carved Ironwood Buttons, show me the buttons. Why not make the upgrades visible upgrades?

Someone else mentioned ME2/N7 armor, and that seems to be a good model to follow. And it was done on a BW game, no less. :happy:

[ipgd]

tmp7704 wrote...

Isn't that effectively getting a free pass?

No? Things are still held to a higher standard by people who are knowledgable in that field. If we only held things to the standards of laymen who don't know or care about how good something is even more of our media would be garbage than it already is. That is what I am saying.

Except this alleged incredible importance isn't really confirmed by the reception -- in the sense as long as its presence (or lack thereof) doesn't appear to affect said reception in noticeable manner... why is it so important, exactly?

You could say this about literally anything. Most consumers are not knowledgable enough in individual aspects of media to notice when anything is bad unless it is so startlingly bad that it distracts from the rest of the work entirely. Yet we cannot place importance only on the things that are immediately apparent to laymen, because it is often those "invisible" aspects, that you are not immediately cognizant of or drawn to analyze, that bring a cohesive level of quality to the entire work. Character design is supposed to be a kind of subtle, natural thing that just fits in.

And, again, I am specifically speaking within the context of character design. Within the context of character design, this is important. If you think character design as a whole isn't important for whatever reason, okay, but that is an entirely separate issue. Sure, there are successful works with awful character designs, just as there are successful works with awful writing or music or gameplay or whatever that are able to compensate for their shortcomings through other areas that are of high quality (like, say, DAO does). But just because people are often willing to overlook poor character design does not mean that there are no standards for character design.

... I'm (and have been the entire time) talking about the slight variation in the body build, ones which might be used to discern between individuals provided one squints hard enough. That is what i thought you were defending as absolutely extremely crucial to the point where it's worth discarding armour customization over. That you out of the blue --to me-- include faces here as means to tell these people apart makes me wonder if perhaps we're talking about two very different things?

Yes. You are talking about something that has absolutely nothing to do with character design. As I've said repeatedly, things that are relevant to live action and things that are relevant to artistic character design are entirely different, because you have different levels of detail and different tools available to you and different difficulties to consider and some things that are conveyed through live action in a certain way (like character recognition through faces) are handled differently in character design (like character recognition through consistent shapes and archetypical body-character matching that are not available to casting directors who must "design" their characters exclusively through pre-made living bodies). Because they're different.

Modifié par ipgd, 04 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[Wulfram]

ipgd wrote...

There was something very wrong with Wynne having the same breasts as Morrigan.

The marvel of Wynne's magical bosom is attested to by Zevran.  It's Leliana who is supposed to be "skinny like a boy".