365 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

willholt wrote...

I can't understand the argument being made by those who propose having unique (upgradeable) companion armour, but who seem opposed to the player being able to change that unique armour for whatever other armour they wish.

Why does one have to exclude the other?
[snip]

Personally I'm not opposed to being able to change the companions' armor, but I want them to retain their unique looks, and I want that to be a viable way to play the game. For example, in Origins with Morrigan, it was possible to keep her in her outfit the entire game, but it only had one upgrade so unless you defeated Flemeth early-ish, you had to take a stat hit to keep Morri looking like herself. I don't think that's a great solution to the problem.

Xewaka wrote...

Anarya wrote...
[snip]

Martyr stance? I'm just saying, keep the looks, but let the character sheet be there as well, complete and untarnished. I also find funny that you assume that me wanting to tinker with mechanics means I'm a minmaxer, considering the amount of time I've spent as a PnP RPG GM of mainly social, investigative and intrigue campaigns (where min-maxing does not apply). I want full flexibility not because I want to build a death squad, but because I simply want to build. I want to explore. I'm a sucker for settings and mechanics. But randomly keeping me for exploring them in the name of art (when it is completely unnecessary, as the character crafting and the character outwards look need not be the same) simply strikes as being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.

The bolded is where I get the martyr impression. I don't want to ruin all your fun, really I don't, and I thought leading off with "I want a compromise and this doesn't have to be a zero sum thing" got that point across. Mechanics are important to you, ok, but art is important to me and I don't think that's any less valid. Me wanting unique companion looks isn't coming from a place of "random"ness at all. The fact that you feel that I'm being contrarian for its own sake speaks volumes because of course no one could actually value art as much as mechanics, right? That kind of attitude seriously irks me. They're both important, like I just said in my previous post.

I don't even see where I argued for limiting character crafting except where I said I liked the idea that your companions are not completely blank slates and that they have preferred weapon styles, etc. which really has nothing to do with art at all. I think it's more interesting that each companion has strengths and weaknesses and a few things that only they can do, versus something like Origins where it's basically just choosing (for example) whether you want your nuker to look like Morrigan or Wynne. Even still, I would be fine with having the option to completely gut characters and rebuild them to your will. There could be a potion like the Maker's Sigh that you could buy and use for that purpose. Once again, my intent is not to ruin everyone else's game and the dev team including some of the things that appeal to people like me does not HAVE to mean that things are taken away from you.

Modifié par Anarya, 05 août 2011 - 06:58 .

[Sanguinerin]

I like what ishmaeltheforsaken did with that mod pack. There are upgraded versions of the companion armor that you can put them in, but you have the option of putting them in other armor sets as well.

Personally, I want to customize my party. In Origins, I kept my companions in armor outside of cities/towns, and I changed them into clothes while inside of them. So I like having clothes items drop as well.

I can't play DAII without ishmael's mod, because I can't stand the companions remaining in the same outfit for ten years time unless you happen to romance them. If we solely have unique companion appearances, then at least go the Mass Effect 2 route and let us earn other versions of the outfit. In ME2, I would change between regular and loyal costumes from time to time on companions that I used the most, just so that they didn't feel so static in that one look.

I preferred the Origins system the most, and if the option is DAII's no customization or Origins' full customization but with no unique look, then I would sacrifice the unique look.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I won't be entirely happy with the companion equipment system unless it has all of the companions follwo the same rules.  If there's Mage-specific gear, then any Mage should be able to wear it.  If there's attribute-limited gear, then any character with that attribute should be able to wear it.

And if character's have unique and unchanging appearances, then that should apply to everyone, even the PC.

Having the rules wortk differently for different characters isn't something I'm never going to like.

lv427 wrote...

I never liked telling my companions what to wear in DAO.

They weren't your companions.  They were the Warden's companions, and the Warden wasn't the one dressing them.  You were.

This position of yours gets presented a lot, but it doesn't make any sense.

Xewaka wrote...

My follow up question is: How important is character design compared to gameplay? The fixed attire (coupled with the removal of access to skill trees to mantain the integrity of said fixed aspects) reduced a lot of possibilities in party composition and customization, thus destroying many chances of replay for trying off the box party buildings and non-traditidional builds. In my book, destroying this basic part of gameplay is not worth the looks, not when the characters are much better defined by their copious amount of dialogue.

I agree entirely with Xewaka.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Anarya wrote...

Personally I'm not opposed to being able to change the companions' armor, but I want them to retain their unique looks, and I want that to be a viable way to play the game.

Then I also want the PC to be able to maintain a unique look throughout the game, and have that also be viable.

It certainly isn't viable in DA2.

[Baiolit]

I thought that a more primitive system might be on order to solve the "distinctive look" issue people might have when faced with option of gearing the companions up themselves. I remember in Diablo 2 a certain piece of equipment looked different on any given class.

Platemail looked diferrent on an assasin, which was different from a druid, which was different from a barbarian etc. That might be what can be done with Dragon Age. Platemail on Fenris can differ visually from platemail on Aveline. That way you are still optimizing a character for combat, but they may still look unique.

I don't know what it means in terms of resources, but it seems to me it might be the best of both worlds. Cost effectiveness might be another matter though.

[CRISIS1717]

I liked making the Dragon armour in Origins the only thing I would change is collecting materials. I quite like upgrading armour sequentially by using a Blacksmith NPC with the appearance and stats developing. You could start off with basic Tier 1 armour, Tier 2 could have engraving and embellishments, maybe Tier 3 could have runic symbols or a cape or one-shoulder cape.

Whatever happens I still hate item packs. I find restricting an open armour system to sell item packs ridiculous, if you want to sell armour put it in with an expansion and price accordingly, item packs individual and on their own are a total waste of money.

[Sylvianus]

HallowedWarden wrote...

I like what ishmaeltheforsaken did with that mod pack. There are upgraded versions of the companion armor that you can put them in, but you have the option of putting them in other armor sets as well.

Personally, I want to customize my party. In Origins, I kept my companions in armor outside of cities/towns, and I changed them into clothes while inside of them. So I like having clothes items drop as well.

I can't play DAII without ishmael's mod, because I can't stand the companions remaining in the same outfit for ten years time unless you happen to romance them. If we solely have unique companion appearances, then at least go the Mass Effect 2 route and let us earn other versions of the outfit. In ME2, I would change between regular and loyal costumes from time to time on companions that I used the most, just so that they didn't feel so static in that one look.

I preferred the Origins system the most, and if the option is DAII's no customization or Origins' full customization but with no unique look, then I would sacrifice the unique look.

I haven't really been impressed with the system of M2 which is hardly better. They said they would improve it but I remain skeptical. We see always  the same structure of the armor ( N7 armor ) with a few different rooms, no I do not like this. We do have real differences, and differents statistics. The outfits of companions were only a story of aesthetic infortunately.

I prefer that we follow a different route.

[Anarya]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Personally I'm not opposed to being able to change the companions' armor, but I want them to retain their unique looks, and I want that to be a viable way to play the game.

Then I also want the PC to be able to maintain a unique look throughout the game, and have that also be viable.

It certainly isn't viable in DA2.

How are you defining a unique look? You can't wear a single set of armor through the entire game and not be handicapped, that's true. Unique look to me means that everything a character wears is "in character" so to speak. For example, Aveline. She gets two outfits over the course of the game and both of them look like "her" armor. They are both designed for her, keeping in mind the design language and color scheme the character designer has established for her. "Retaining a unique look" means the companion in question is always dressed appropriately for his or her character, not necessarily that they wear one fixed outfit the entire game. They could have a bunch of different selectable exclusive outfits, or like I said in the OP, you could have a system more like Origins', only each armor displays differently on each companion.

In the case of Hawke, I would argue that s/he actually DOES have a unique look. Because Hawke is the only one who can equip found armor, all the lootable armor in the game is designed within Hawke's aesthetic parameters (with a few exceptions). It's up to the player to decide which of these armors Hawke wears at any given time, giving the player some wiggle room to establish how his or her Hawke habitually dresses. It's not a perfect system, because there weren't that many armor sets at a given time to choose between, but I can see and appreciate the intent. And then of course when you get to the endgame you have the iconic Champion armor that most people associate with Hawke.

So that's a lot of words to basically say fixed outfit != unique look.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fine, a fixed outfit, then. If Varric can have a fixed outfit throughout the entire game, then Hawke should be able to have a fixed outfit throughout the entire game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

And about those unique looks, why do the companions not wear helmets? If there are helmets in the setting, then the companions should wear helmets.

[Anarya]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fine, a fixed outfit, then. If Varric can have a fixed outfit throughout the entire game, then Hawke should be able to have a fixed outfit throughout the entire game.

Interesting. Personally I'm pushing for more costume changes for companions, not less for the PC.

And about the helmets, you'd have to ask the character designer.

Modifié par Anarya, 05 août 2011 - 07:31 .

[CRISIS1717]

Personally I've had enough of this unique look armour nonsense, this isn't the Simpsons it's a hardcore rpg. Any unique look should be defined by the player not by what they are restricted to.

[Sanguinerin]

Sylvianus wrote...

I haven't really been impressed with the system of M2 which is hardly better. They said they would improve it but I remain skeptical. We see always  the same structure of the armor ( N7 armor ) with a few different rooms, no I do not like this. We do have real differences, and differents statistics. The outfits of companions were only a story of aesthetic infortunately.

I prefer that we follow a different route.

Oh, I don't prefer ME2 in general. I prefer ME2 over DAII. At least if we had the ME2 system in DAII, I could have switched the outfits out with something else, even if it was a re-coloring.

I love the way Origins handles companion customization.

I would love a system like ishmaeltheforsaken's mod, where there are both companion unique looks that upgrade with levels, as well as the ability to equip companions with any armor. (Edit: I also use the no restrictions mod, so all of my companions can use any armor or weapon type.)

I would accept the ME2 system of re-colored versions of the outfits.

I detest having no control whatsoever in the form of DAII.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 05 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[Sylvianus]

HallowedWarden wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I haven't really been impressed with the system of M2 which is hardly better. They said they would improve it but I remain skeptical. We see always  the same structure of the armor ( N7 armor ) with a few different rooms, no I do not like this. We do have real differences, and differents statistics. The outfits of companions were only a story of aesthetic infortunately.

I prefer that we follow a different route.

Oh, I don't prefer ME2 in general. I prefer ME2 over DAII. At least if we had the ME2 system in DAII, I could have switched the outfits out with something else, even if it was a re-coloring.

I love the way Origins handles companion customization.

I would love a system like ishmaeltheforsaken's mod, where there are both companion unique looks that upgrade with levels, as well as the ability to equip companions with any armor. (Edit: I also use the no restrictions mod, so all of my companions can use any armor or weapon type.)

I would accept the ME2 system of re-colored versions of the outfits.

I detest having no control whatsoever in the form of DAII.

The same !

An RPG based on a team that doesn't  have true customization is completely boring.

As William Gallas said : freeeedoooooom !

[Anarya]

Sylvianus wrote...
The same !

An RPG based on a team that doesn't  have true customization is completely boring.

As William Gallas said : freeeedoooooom !

*cough* Wallace. William Wallace.

Modifié par Anarya, 05 août 2011 - 07:49 .

[Sanguinerin]

As I said, I would armor up my companions outside of cities, and then put them in clothes for cities, towns, and interiors.

I would collect the nobles clothing, commoner's clothing, Chantry robes, etc. to do so.

I'm a little bit obsessive over my character's and my companions' appearances, so DAII pretty much killed me. After my first play-through, I didn't play it again until downloading ishmael's armor mod and the no restrictions mod. If I want to put Isabela in heavy armor, then so be it!

I actually purchased the item DLC after using those mods, because it gave me more unique sets to put on my companions. I'm fine keeping companions in different sets of armor so that they all appear like their own people (I mean, I did that in Origins anyway), but I want at least some form of control over it!

I sacrifice top gear to make my companions look great. I do it with all of my characters. In WoW, I wouldn't put on a new set of armor until it all matched. I don't care about battles being more difficult because my gear isn't fantastic... I want my party to look great! And I want some kind of control or influence!

[Sylvianus]

Anarya wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
The same !

An RPG based on a team that doesn't  have true customization is completely boring.

As William Gallas said : freeeedoooooom !

*cough* Wallace. William Wallace.

My god ! Shame on me....

Thank you !

[Master Shiori]

Anarya wrote...

What I'd like to see in DA3 is a compromise. Make companions' armor unique, but give us a selection of unique armors for each character and let us choose which one to equip.

This please.

I don't want to go back to companions wearing generic armor number 234987 with a different color scheme, but at the same time it would be nice to have control over which armor they'll wear at a given time.

[tmp7704]

ipgd wrote...

Most things are not important to everyone, but everyone has a few things that are important to them. Should we design each aspect of our media only with the people to whom it is not important to in mind, or design things as if everything is important? Which will lead to a higher quality whole?

As long as we operate in real world with limits to how much can be achieved in given timeframe and with resources at hand, we should probably take into consideration that some things are viewed as either more important or important to  larger group, and tailor the process accordingly.

If visual character design is not especially important to you, I cannot convince you that some individual aspect of it is important if you view the entirety of it of relatively lesser import to the issue in contention.

I've asked you not to create strawmans. Questioning whether some individual aspect of visual character design is really as important as you claim isn't by any means reflecting on my view of importance of character design on the whole.

I'm not really sure what this argument is about at this point. Is this really a semantical squibble about a superlative?

the rundown so far would be:

you: "the companions should have vastly different body type each, and the armours should adjust to fit that or be fixed"
me: "meh, different body types aren't so important"
you: "nowai, they totes are"
me: "are not"
you: "are too"

i don't think it has anything to do with semantics but i also don't think at this point we're going to reach an agreement. If you wish to drop it, that's fine with me.

[HTTP 404]

The best compromise I can think of is the Morrigan example. while I chose many of the companions armor and clothing in DA:O, I left Morrigan her robes and gave her an upgraded version later. It was her unique look that I chose to let her have.

Moving forward, it would be nice if all the companions have unique armor just for their characters and ability to upgrade them through missions, shopping, etc. All the while having the option to wear whatever the player saw fit. I think for some characters I would leave them to their unique look while others I would want to change. With that said, unique looks should vary a lot anyways over a ten year span.

Sylvius brings up a good point, hawke isn't the one redressing them, it is the player. After all we can move companions and control their attacks just like hawke's.

[berelinde]

I want it both ways. I want the freedom to equip a character as I see fit, but I like the signature looks, too. This is possible. Each piece of armor is already categorized by type. If you find leather body armor and put it on Varric, maybe his duster looks a little fancier. If you put that same armor on Fenris, his look changes a bit. If you put it on Anders, something happens to his costume, too. That way, no loot you can't use for anything, you get some ability to play dress-up with your companions, and the companions still retain their unique appearances. Everybody wins.

[NedPepper]

rak72 wrote...

^^^ That's all great, but why can't we include the option of putting whatever we want to on her. Like I said, it's our own game, why should Mike Laidlaw have his knickers in a bunch if Morrigan is wearing plate armor.

I'll quote Morrigan from Origins: 

"If one more person asks me if I'd like a new set of clothes, I  will burn this house down."

Putting Morrigan in armor makes zero sense and strips her of her personality, identity, and actually BREAKS immersion.  The fact that she actually states it furthers my point.

[Sylvianus]

How it break immersion if you don't choose yourself an armor for her ? Why it would break your immersion if Rak choose an armor for morrigan ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 août 2011 - 09:58 .

[FieryDove]

nedpepper wrote...

I'll quote Morrigan from Origins: 

"If one more person asks me if I'd like a new set of clothes, I  will burn this house down."

Putting Morrigan in armor makes zero sense and strips her of her personality, identity, and actually BREAKS immersion.  The fact that she actually states it furthers my point.

What did she say to you when you made her a spirit healer?

What did she say when you gave her a new staff?

What did she say when you gave her some +con instead of +magic?

What did she say when you told her to attack that dragon?

What did she say when you told her to move over there or hold ground?

What...what...what? 

[NedPepper]

Because it's out of character. The companions have a set personality. You interact with them, but you don't CONTROL them.

The freedom is to create YOUR Hawke or YOUR Warden. That's the roleplaying. I'm all for compromise and having alternate sets of armor that still seem to fit the personality of the companion. Video games are visual.

And I also think it depends on the character. Again, putting different armours on tanks like Oghren and Sten made sense. They wore armour after all. Putting Morrigan in tank armor is just...I can't even argue this. To me, it's another example of sacrificing story and artistic integrity so people can play dress up.....

That picture a few pages back of everyone wearing the same outfit made me remember the one HUGE flaw in DA:O when it came to character design. It strips the game its personality Completely immersion breaking.