405 replies to this topic

[John Epler]

Hey folks.

So I've been wanting to do this topic for a while, but I felt it might be best if I waited until Legacy had launched and percolated for a bit before doing so. Mostly because I feel that Legacy better represents the state of cinematics in Eclipse (and the Dragon Age franchise) than DA2 did, if for no other reason than those of us who worked on DA2 have had a chance to grow into our roles a little more.

With that in mind, I wanted to get some discussion and feedback going from the community, specifically in regards to the cinematics of DA2 and its DLC. What kind of feedback? Well, there are a few questions/comments that have come up that I'd like to delve into a little bit more.

1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. Were there moments where you felt 'hey, that's not something my Hawke would ever do!' that were not writing related. I realize this can be a bit odd of a concept to grasp, so let me reiterate - times where, while the lines and intent of the writing wasn't necessarily a problem, but in the context of the scene your character did something or had a particular expression that just took you out of the moment?

2) Things you wanted to see more of. We've gotten some good feedback from you guys about the 5 different killing blows at the end of Legacy, and we'd definitely like to do more of that (though they may not always be quite as unique as those five, the idea that each weapon-type gets its own little flair is something we believe adds to the experience). But stuff like that.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

But please, don't limit yourself to these particular points. Anything and everything cinematics related would be useful to hear, as we want to push ourselves on future projects, and one way of doing that is to find out from you guys what worked, what didn't and what you think we could add to the process in the future.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd like to bring up that this problem I'm about to bring up was mostly rectified in Legacy (at the very least from what I've seen), though Dragon Age 2 had a large variety of different cutscene styles. One example that comes to mind is when returning from the Amell cellars in Act 1, you'd have the cam shaking around as if it was shaky cam.

I understand there's a mix of staff from Mass Effect and the Dragon Age series, the one responsible for that scene most likely used their capabilities from the Mass Effect series for the cutscene though when compared as a whole it stood out.

You've stated before that the cinematic team is trying to find the "Dragon Age" style, I'd just like to repeat that it's one of those things I'd like to see done. Have the experience feel as one, rather than having some scenes stick out as obviously being done from different people.

Probably sounding confused and messed up right now (in a rush), sorry!

[Macropodmum]

Hmm, maybe not cinematics per se but there are times when the paraphrasing doesn't quite match. The only scene I can readily think I have a gripe with is when you either have to be a total B*$%h to Anders or give him the come on, there was no let him down gently scenario which is what my Hawke would rather have done

Edit: Wanted to add that I did love the cinematic ending with Hawkes mum at the end of Legacy, very well done and brought a tear to my eye...

Edited by Macropodmum, 04 August 2011 - 07:11 AM.

[Sepewrath]

Macropodmum wrote...

Hmm, maybe not cinematics per se but there are times when the paraphrasing doesn't quite match. The only scene I can readily think I have a gripe with is when you either have to be a total B*$%h to Anders or give him the come on, there was no let him down gently scenario which is what my Hawke would rather have done

That's about writing, its not related to what's being asked here. Something I liked, was those view points, giving a close up look at structures and actions happening away from the party. For example, seeing Janeka and her crew moving on the other side of a broken bridge. It would be even better if you could do that in a ambient fashion, so it kind of felt like you were racing them. I really did enjoy the class specific kills against like the High Dragon in the Bone Pit and the Ancient Rock Wraith, more of that would be appreciated.

Basically the stuff you got to see in the advertisements in Origins, you got to actually see in the game in DA2, keep that up and that will keep me happy.

[brain_damage]

JohnEpler wrote...
 I feel that Legacy better represents the state of cinematics in Eclipse

Silly question: what is Eclipse?

[Tommyspa]

A quick one I thought of that was wrong, killing the Ancient Rock Wraith with a warhammer was all wrong, it was like killing it with a two handed sword, it totally needed to be smashed in or something absurd like the random dwarf with the battle axe jumping off the cliff and slicing Darkspawn in the Duncan intro to origins. So basically take weapon type into better consideration, because it took me out of it for a moment.

[Nimrodell]

The only thing that I was missing cinematic/environment vise was one simple thing - Kirkwall after Qunari attack. Let me be more specific - after Hawke beats the Arishok, we see cheering in the Keep and than the scene goes right into argument between Orsino and Meredith instead of showing overall change in Kirkwall or maybe Viscount's funeral. Battle did happen and we get polished Kirkwall after 3 years right away. If you remember we had 'similar' situation in DA:O Redcliffe when the urn of sacred ashes is finally found and the arl is awake - we have scene of mass funeral and that particular scene gave the sense of continuity and actual resolution of that part of the story.

Since there's no actual environmental change in Kirkwall after Qunari leave apart from the Docks (statue and closed Qunari compund) - guess they restored Kirkwall in those 3 years - actual cinematic depicting Kirkwall right after the attack or the funeral would be actually more immersive and would help in understanding of 'polished' Kirkwall after 3 years.

[macalkins]

an event that comes to mind is when you are looking for your mother in all that remains and your companions are cracking jokes back and forth to each other or talking like nothing is going on. Enjoyed in Legacy how companions interact and talked about what happened in main story(ex warden Bethany apologizing for missing the wedding with Sebastian)

[ImoenBaby]

I felt some cinematics were too inappropriately neutral, e.g. Hawke’s reaction to Isabela at the end of Fools Rush In, i.e. his facial reaction to her sexual innuendo dialogue in the Chantry. Perhaps this was to leave multiple player responses open – not everyone had the hots for Isabela – but the end result felt near expressionless.  For all the effort that goes into cinematics, and all the goodness they bring to Dragon Age, it seems like such a waste.


It’s probably rather tricky to appeal to all roleplaying choices *and* save on cinematic costs, make deadlines, etc. I salute you all! When DA’s cinematics are good, they’re great. I enjoy how “little” things like where a camera lingers or zooms can make all the difference in how dynamic and memorable the story is.  

[Kulyok]

1) Angry/negative facial expressions are bad. I'm a girl, and I want to be pretty. (Besides, I don't do this sort of facial expressions myself). When Hawke looks at someone with an angry expression and a raised eyebrow, that's not me, that's someone else's protagonist. Especially since I never choose angry/direct replies myself, I choose diplomatic or sarcastic ones.
- So, in Legacy, when Hawke angrily raises an eyebrow, that made me drop out of the game for a bit - wasn't my Hawke.
- When my Warden's mouth corners go down in Return to Ostagar at the sight of dead Cailan, that wasn't her, either. She was not sorry to see Cailan dead, the guy nearly ruined Ferelden and cheated on his wife!
- When the Warden looks frightened at the sight of an undead ogre at Return to Ostagar - she just killed two dragons, why would she be scared?
- Hawke is looking for her kidnapped mother and says "Mother is down there. WITH HIM!" - Hawke's voice reflects true suffering, and that's not my protagonist, either. When you display strong emotions that Hawke doesn't feel(and no dialogue choices, either), it doesn't seem real - not to me, at least.

2) I'd want to take dialogue away from quests and to see more dialogue with NPCs. Hell, DA and DA2 are both replayable games, they are meant to be. Do you think I want to ask these four or five questions in "Interrogate" section again and again for every minor quest in every playthrough? Of course not, they are boring! I'd rather be able to click on Varric at his homebase and have two extra conversations with him, because we all know that romantic conversations with Anders and Alistair never get old, and we never get tired of listening how Morrigan stole that golden mirror and how Aveline read aloud to her father. And, yes, I don't mind if I click on his conversation menu and it's empty/exhausted, but the very fact that it's here - that matters.

3) A waste of money, in my opinion. I don't care if there are extra guards, or worksmen working the forge, or even an artificial smell of flowers - I want the story. If there are too many "pretty things" that have to do nothing with the quests(like that nobleman looking for a dog in Hightown in DA2 Act 1), I'll just think the game is bugged - seriously, when I saw "semi-alive" NPCs who weren't giving me quests, there's only one reason I see for it - it's a bug or a cut quest.

[Kulyok]

Sorry, a double post here. By the way, I want to support the post above about sexual advances Hawke isn't given an opportunity to answer to. (Isabella at the end of Fools Rush In, for example). I don't think it's appropriate, because it provokes an emotional response, or even a strong emotional response in some cases(whether to grab Isabella and kiss her, or slap her on the face, or be offended, especially if the player is female? or whatever), but the player isn't able to do anything. It's just like sexual harrassment in the situation where you are powerless and cannot respond. And it doesn't feel so good.

Edited by Kulyok, 04 August 2011 - 10:56 AM.

[Yuqi]

 Anders..Getting the most screen time as an LI,in legacy.

And The flames going through the black lines..in the cinimatics. That is really distracting,and annoying. Also Male hawke,is not as expressive as Femhawke. IT sometimes feels like he is faking his emotions.

The worst..cinamatic..is swhen his/her mother dies, hardly any emotion at all. That was his/her motherI was like WTH..That is the most imersive breaking cutscene in the whole game.


And no more:Excessive Use of Blood Magic.<_< 

You see them use it once or twice,I can get that. but seeing it in almost every single quest, really guys,seriously? (It reminds me of those annoying school teachers,who babaeled on and on about the same thing..)

Ihave an idea, everytime you guys make something with blood magic, put a dollar in it,like a swear jar.Whoever dosen't use it gets the jar 

[Revakeane]

I don't know if this applies to cinematics and interactive story-telling specifically, but I thought that the conversations and cinematic sequences throughout the game could have been massively improved with better facial expressions for the characters. Most of the time, the people in conversation would be walking around and gesturing, and but their faces were ultimately blank. Or there would be flashes of expression here and there, but the conversation would essentially be facially flavorless. If done right, a cut-scene could be told through facial expression alone... although I don't think this is necessarily the goal, it would be an awesome addition to DA in terms of story-telling ability.

I think cinematic storytelling would definitely improve with increases in the amount of emotional gesturing the characters are allowed to do. Stuff like throwing hands up in the air, shrugging... all that is pretty good, but there needs to be MORE (or perhaps simply more variations of one expression). If not, the recycling aspect of the conversations become very very apparent.

Generally I think there can be much more instances of ambient story-telling... each sector of Kirkwall for instance was supposed to be dramatically different from each other... and this could have been more effectively conveyed through unique animations for each section. Lowtown could see more instances of crime for example... maybe pick-pocketing here and there, muggings, angry conversations and intimidation... stuff like that. It would be fantastic if the devs could differentiate each city sector through cinematics... stuff like posture, social behavior could definitely be utilized for story-telling purposes.

Overall, Kirkwall seemed quite bland at times. I'm glad this discussion is up, there's definitely room for improvement!

[Sister Helen]

Disclaimer:  I've only played through Legacy once (so far), so my experience is limited.  I played through with Anders (LI) in the party, postgame save. The Hawke character was predominantly "diplomat" personality, with some snark.

1) a)  With respect to cinematics that threw me, as a player, out of the game, in a bad way: There are at least two scenes where Anders begins to lose control and begs for help from Hawke ("his love").  Hawke just stands there and looks a bit bored; in the latter one, he stands a bit to the side, and the point of view is at Anders, looking up at Hawke.  It felt disconnected.

Based on the writing of DA2 (and how the interaction between diplomat Hawke and Anders as LI in that game), it felt bizarre Hawke would stand several feet away, at a distance, from a person with whom he/she was in a touchy-feely-kissy relationship. 

I thought, "Are you KIDDING me? You can't even touch the guy on the shoulder or something? Lame."

  With respect to cinematics that threw me, as a player, out of the game, in a good way:  There's a moment before Hawke enters the Carta area, where he and Varric joke about it all being a big mistake on the Carta's part to target Hawke, they really meant to target Locke.  Then Warden Carver jumps in with a snide remark about Hawke, and there's this long.... silent.... glance exchanged between Hawke and Varric, that pretty much says, "Oh, can you believe this guy?!" 

I thought, "Oh that is just AWESOME!" jumped up out of my chair and did a fist pump.  (I can't stand Carver.)

... I guess it just means that cinematics chuck you out of the immersion when the player has very defined feelings about a character... This post is probably not what you were looking for as feedback, Mr. Epler.  Apologies.

[Xewaka]

JohnEpler wrote...
3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

I haven't played Legacy, so my information on this might be a bit outdated. Still, since I found gameplay / story segregation issues far a bigger trouble than the waves and scenario reuse, I feel forced to point it out again. The complete lack of reaction from the various NPCs to the events that happen around them, standing perfectly still in place without batting an eyelash when forty thugs drop from the ceilings onto the party, or the fact that Templars wouldn't react at all when fire rains on their head. There's also the fact that for a bustling, overcrowded city, Kirkwall was strangely empty.
There's precedent in Bioware games of crowded plazas and cities with its inhabitants reacting to the party's actions, and even of hunting illegal magic users as a game mechanic. Not everything past is wrong.

Throrough the whole game, I felt as if codices and dialogues told me one story while the gameplay told me another, different story. That is not a good feeling to have in a RPG.

Edited by Xewaka, 04 August 2011 - 11:24 AM.

[Revakeane]

Also, I think making more opportunities for cinematic party interaction would be great. The main thing that I absolutely love about the DA franchise and bioware games in general are the fully-fleshed out, nuanced and fantastic party members. DAO and DA2 immensely successful use of banter is a case in point, and I think it really proved that people like to see what the internal party dynamics and interactions are like.

DA2 did great in allowing party members to visit each other from time to time; my personal impressions of this addition was that it made the world and mission more real. After all, watching the relationships develop with as well as between my closest companions really fleshed out the social aspect of Hawke's life, and I think this should be a focus cinematics and story-telling wise: I want to see more my party members interacting, look at their body language towards one another, how their words are delivered. The back-and-forth insult scene between Aveline and Isabela was a good example of how cinematic party member interactions can be. It also made me really consider who include in my party for each mission; I wanted to experience all possible cinematic and dialogue reactions, and it definitely improved DA2's replayability.

It would be great if there could be some cutscenes where party members exchange words while in action.

[DahliaLynn]

It's a bit complicated, since the effect of cinematics is largly depedent on a combination of several key elements. The story, writing, timing, voice acting facial, expressions body gestures, content, and music mesh together to create an impact on the player. I've played DA2 twice and can note off the top of my head the things that stood out for me.

Music:

The mother dying scene: Visually it was very well done. Musically it was a faliure. The music did not move me and even took away from what was supposed to be a very dramatic/sad moment. (Loved the slight camera roll and high FOV CU on Quentin btw!!!)

Aveline killing her husband: Again visually very well made with great camera choices cuts and angles, but the music bland and not moving in the least, even though it seemed to suggest it was.

Much of the music applied to many of the cutscenes felt like it had very little to do with what was going on, but rather selected from the available library and placed in there for filler space. Unfortunately I can't recall the scenes off the top, but there were definitely several that stood out saying to me that no attention was given to the matter. I would hope the cinematic team work closely with whomever is responsible for the music content of the particular cutscene.

Facial animations:

As stated in other posts, I feel facial animations were for the most part lacking in emotion. DA:O was stronger in that respect where the characters themselves were designed with such detail, that a facial expression had already been imprinted in the default, telling much about the character just by looking at them. The facial animations applied looked more realistic.

In order to augment the lack of detail in the facial design, (new CC engine?) I would even the balance by having more extreme and visible facial animations. Most of the characters looked lifeless to me, entirely relying on the VA to fill in the gaps of what was not seen. That didn't always work. Key emotional moments in DA2 were presented with bland expression, taking away from the impact of the scene. This goes for all characters.

With regards to Hawke, if Hawke is sarcastic, and we see Hawke, then let Hawke make a sarcastic facial expression. I realize it may be hard, since lines can be chosen in any order and hawke cannot react to every reply in the right order (or can he/she?) But at least when Hawke speaks.

I did feel that Meredith Flemeth and Varrick were more facially tended to both in expression VA and design.

Gestures:

I think it's ok if the characters raise their arms a bit more than at waist side while speaking. They aren't singing on stage, and there aren't contraining laws forbidding them to move. That's what it seems like.

Ambient storytelling:

I liked how every once in a while people would audibly greet Hawke, but as others have mentioned, it didn't feel like a live city. People were standing around, but there was nothing happening. DA:O had children running, a dog here and there, (Denerim) preachers where you could listen along with onlookers (Ostagar) and things happening in every corner. Perhaps more thievery, or an occasional outburst. People walking to and fro. A merchant moving towards his wares and back.

Control being taken away:

For the most part I didn't feel this, but this will also relate to story and plot progression. The romantic aspects were in my opinion a bit unlike what I would have expected.

Fenris: Lack of facial expression in Hawke reacting to a very dramatic Fenris saying "Command me to leave.." in close up. Hawke reacting with nonchalance both facially, and textually was a complete let down for me, as if Hawke was talking about having a cup of tea on the porch.
The same lifeless expression (aside from the actual wake up) goes for the after sex scene conversation.

Anders: that big incredible kiss he gives hawke after three years of missing her for me was like (where did that come from?) I barely know you, and only flirted with you a bit) It surprised me on the first playthrough.

Aveline personal quest:
Something didn't fit right when Hawke confronted her at the end . Somehow only watching Aveline walk up to her, then after too much of a delayed pause "Oh Hawke!!! what are you doing here" seemed very unnatural.

More of:

DA:O had a nice "Deathblow" trigger that was always fun to wait for when killing a creature. The final killing blows in the DLC of course were stellar. Perhaps a bit more of that. Cutscene or not.
Just mentioning, killing the dragon in the bone pit looked a bit messy to me as a Rogue.

An unrelated idea: Can Hawke and his/her party meet several party members for a random drink at the hanged man by choice?  Perhaps even have a mild visually unbalanced drunk effect after drinking

These were really off the top of my head. Hopefully I can post a bit more if something I remember comes up.

Edited by DahliaLynn, 04 August 2011 - 12:35 PM.

[ipgd]

I just want the visual part of the game to match what the textual part of the game is saying, really. I can suspend my disbelief and just accept that, say, Kirkwall is a populous city overflowing with refugees because NPCs tell me it is, but I would rather have actually seen that.

[tmp7704]

brain_damage wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...
 I feel that Legacy better represents the state of cinematics in Eclipse

Silly question: what is Eclipse?

Name of the engine used by DA games, if i'm not mistaken.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

JohnEpler wrote...
3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

The Gallows were pretty much the biggest wasted opportunity in DA2 regarding this.

We often hear from various people about brutality of the templars we never got to see much of it. It would have been a ncie touch if we see templars dragging a mage away for questioning or beating in the gallows with the mage screaming and struggleing in protest.

Or even see a templar raid in progress in the background someplace in Kirkwall.

[Beerfish]

I'll have to think on some of these as I might start a new playthrough of DA2 and legacy, them perhaps make notes.

One thing I did really like a lot from Legacy were the viewpoint moments where you could click, and get the cutscene of the view and in many cases see what was happening across a bridge or chasm (monsters moving, door being magically opened by your opponent.)

[Selidor]

The lighting in some of the cutscenes (especially those indoors) was very low. I don't expect it to be as bright as somewhere with electric lighting, but there were places that could have used a few more torches.

For example, the DA2 Alistair looks fine in daylight but in the dim lighting he appeared older and more haggard (and so a lot of fans complained that he looked ugly). This worked fine for the drunken exiled Alistair, but not so much for King Alistair. Also, details and facial expressions of characters with darker skin tones like Hubert, or potentially Hawke were difficult to see in dimly lit cutscenes.

Generally I thought facial expressions were okay (and better than the Warden, who all too often looked like a doll instead of a person) although some were a little silly/awkward. Two moments that particularly stood out to me in that respect are Hawke's expression when propositioned by Isabela, and when Petrice interrupts the conversation between Hawke and Varnell and then Hawke sort of swings about scowling like a dog on a leash. Something a bit more subtle might have worked better in both instances.

I loved the fact that conversations with companions became proper cutscenes instead of just happening anywhere (I remember triggering sensitive, intimate conversations with companions in DAO while in the middle of the Deep Roads etc. because I selected them by accident). There may not have been quite as much interaction in terms of dialogue, but seeing them in their own homes meant there was less need for twenty questions/tell me about yourself moments. The romance scenes were a lot more interesting and varied as well.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Iess cinematics like it was in DAO and a chance to actually choose what to happens in cutscenes, sometimes i wanted to kick Aveline ass because she can be annoying and instead the contrary happens WTF.

In DAO you played the events as it happen and not after and there where not many of those immediate consequenses in the game either so more like DAO in that aspect and the side quest where too integrated in the first act main quest "50 gold" (more story and less side quest, didn't like none of those many deliver quest).