405 réponses à ce sujet

[macrocarl]

I really like the finishing moves you've added to the 2 DLC's and there's a scene at the end of MotA where way in the background you see Tallis drop off a wall to sneak over while some Orlesians are speaking in the forground. Super great! High 5! Also, the more dynamic camera for comedy/ drama you used: Awesome. I'm really enjoying these cimematic decisions you are making! High 5 Part 2!

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

Sometimes the lighting in certain areas didn't seem to reflect the mood that both the characters and the codex implied it should be-- for example, the codex entry on Darktown says:

The mineshafts were extended under the city to dispose of sewage from Kirkwall's overcrowded population of slaves.....the tunnels became a refuge for those fleeing captivity. A similar trend continues today. The "Undercity," as some call it, is home to the diseased, the insane, to criminals, and even the dead—unwanted corpses are often discarded here by murderers and lazy undertakers. Darktown's slums makes Lowtown look pleasant in comparison. The foul miasma known as chokedamp clogs and swells in every corner of the Darktown, creating a poisonous mist. Its sewers are a dangerous place. The walls are damp, slick, and coated with phosphorescent lichen. The sewer is a maze, and one foolish enough to enter is not likely to be heard from again."

Darktown seemed way too bright and clean to be a series of maze-like mineshafts, filled with "poisonous mist" . In my opinion, the intended mood of Darktown (and by extension the hopeless desperation of the refugees) would have come across more strongly if Hawke stumbled upon the odd cadaver left in a corner, or if we caught a glimpse of a person sitting along the walls rocking and muttering to themselves. (Maybe Hawke could briefly witness one of the refugee's getting beat up? Or taunted?)

Mostly, however, it seems like there shouldn't have been shafts of sunlight illuminating the place, or even glimpses of a sunny, blue sky. Overall it felt more like an old, lofty barn than a foul, abandoned mine.

As for cinematics, there were two main things (that I remember) that pulled me out of the story and character. First, was the end of Isabela's recruitment mission, where Isabela offers to let Hawke go back to her room at the Hanged Man-- Hawke has a weird letcherous look on his/her face that doesn't really make sense with any of my character's personalities.

Second, when Ander's attempts to comfort Hawke after Leandra's death, he always sits on the bed with his staff still strapped to his back. For whatever reason, this really irks me everytime I see it...

Having said all that, however, I just want to clarify that I absolutely love the game.

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 25 octobre 2011 - 06:17 .

[esper]

About Mark of the assassin. What I don't understand is why not let the duke keep the scroll and let it fall into oblivion with him (Or let him tear it up in anger because it isn't what he thought it is). If the scroll is lost/destroyed isn't Tallis mission accompliced since the name are lost with it and in that way it is explained why Hawke doesn't get the scroll.

Another thing is the class finisher. I really love them and don't want you to stop using them in the cinematic when it is boss fights. But does it have to be fire everytime for a mage Hawke? My Hawke doesn't have a single spell in elemental so it seems a stupid time to start pratice her fire control. Generally you seem to love fire in boss battles, last to certainly used them a lot. What about ice? Or earth or just somethings new.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Maybe the mage finishers should check for where a character has points spent, and show one of several options for fire, ice, electricity, spirit, and entropy... very little would have to change about the cinematic, other than the effect being shown...

[esper]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Maybe the mage finishers should check for where a character has points spent, and show one of several options for fire, ice, electricity, spirit, and entropy... very little would have to change about the cinematic, other than the effect being shown...

That would be nice, but perhaps a bit to much to ask for. It is just strange to see my Hawke who has never cast a fire spell in her life starting to cover her whole body in flames...
On the other hand if they can check for shield or two handed and dual or bow for warrior or rouge it should be possible.

[nightscrawl]

Morroian wrote...

And what about those who want to role play a Hawke who isn't broken up? IMHO they took it as far as they could in the cinematics and dialogue while still letting the player impose something close to the reaction they want to role play.

There could be an option for this in the dialogue. Then the voiceover can just respond to the selection.

motomotogirl wrote...

But my M!Hawke was in a relationship with Fenris, so the disgusted face Hawke made when Tallis made her little suggestion was just kind of ... odd. After all, it isn't as if the duke's son is ugly. He's not a bad looking guy.

Sorry, my straight Hawke is female, also in a relationship (with Fenris), and I didn't want to do it. I completely avoided that option. I personally dislike using my gender/sex for those purposes (though I had no problem if Tallis wanted to try.) I suppose I might have a different take if I played guyHawke, but the face to me just seemed irritated with the whole thing, especially since the plan was not working.

Dhiro wrote...

... the idea of having to seduce a spoiled brat while their love interest is away is very disgusting for them.

Same here!

motomotogirl wrote...

(first time multi-quoting; hope I did it right!)

Uh... I just copy all of the relevant quotes in Notepad and then just paste all of them in a long reply. Is there some other way I'm missing?

[tevikolady]

One thing I recall playing through the Exiled Prince was one of the options to choose was: "you'll be a good ruler" and what you actually say is, "It's doesn't matter how you take the throne, its what you do with it once you have it" Or something an such, which of course nets you rivalry. WHAT?????????????

The combat scene between Anders and your party in Legacy was..meh. I felt that Anders/Justice was a pretty intimidating sight...I found Anders to be rather unimpressive. I, as his future runaway bride, would not be so concerned about his going off the deep end. This just felt flat.

[TMA LIVE]

One thing that's been good about the latest DA2 DLC is the banter between characters. Heck, it's probably the main reason why we're paying 10 dollars per DLC. But one issue I feel, and one I've read before, is that how the banters are exclusive to these DLC missions, and yet you can never really listen to them all. In order to do so in Legacy, you have to stop what you're doing, exit the mission, and change the order of companions. Then run around banter points continuesly till you heard all of them. Then repeat again. But in MOTA, you're locked with just the same two characters. Which means, there's banter you can't listen to unless you replay it again, and again, and again, but with different people. For one character, you have to play it 8 times to hear everything that character had to say to everyone. And it gets even worse if bugs are in the way.

Shouldn't there be a better way to do this? Like maybe allowing some of that banter be possible to listen to in the main game? Because as is, the best solution is really hoping someone uploads them on youtube.

Shouldn't they try to create more reasons to allow you to switch party members?

Or do you find things work out well, and have no problem replaying MOTA multiple times, just to listen to everything?

[nightscrawl]

tevikolady wrote...

One thing I recall playing through the Exiled Prince was one of the options to choose was: "you'll be a good ruler" and what you actually say is, "It's doesn't matter how you take the throne, its what you do with it once you have it" Or something an such, which of course nets you rivalry. WHAT?????????????

The disparity between rivalry and friendship with Sebastian depends on ONE thing, and that thing only: let him stay in the Chantry, or encourage him to fight for Starkhaven. What he really and truly wants is to remain a brother, so trying to convince him to take back Starkhaven in any way will net you rivalry, even if you do it in a friendly manner like "You'll make a good ruler." Actually, I found that trying to maintain rivalry with him was very difficult even with those choices, unless you go rabid pro-mage in his presence, take bribes, or any other type of unsavory behavior.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 04 novembre 2011 - 08:26 .

[Sisterofshane]

Haven't read through this entire thread, but I was replaying DA2 last night and a few things came to mind about the cinematics.
For starters, it bothered me when there was clearly line of dialogue that should have been directed at a specific character, but the speaker didn't so much as gesture in their direction, let alone look at them. Specific example that comes to mind is when Carver says "The dwarf makes some sense. No offense". The sentence was clearly meant for Varric, but Carver stares at Hawke the entire time. I wanted to retort "You're not offending me by pointing out that man is a dwarf; Maybe you should apologize to HIM".
Another thing that was missing as far as the environment goes was NPC reactions to what was going on around them. I got jumped in the Hightown Market after dark by Athenril and her thugs, and the lone Guardsman standing about had the nerve to tell me the market was closed as I flew past him to slaughter the left-over henchmen after blowing up Athenril with a spell.

Just a few things off the top of my head, hope it helps!

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:15 .

[errant_knight]

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey folks.

So I've been wanting to do this topic for a while, but I felt it might be best if I waited until Legacy had launched and percolated for a bit before doing so. Mostly because I feel that Legacy better represents the state of cinematics in Eclipse (and the Dragon Age franchise) than DA2 did, if for no other reason than those of us who worked on DA2 have had a chance to grow into our roles a little more.

With that in mind, I wanted to get some discussion and feedback going from the community, specifically in regards to the cinematics of DA2 and its DLC. What kind of feedback? Well, there are a few questions/comments that have come up that I'd like to delve into a little bit more.

1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. Were there moments where you felt 'hey, that's not something my Hawke would ever do!' that were not writing related. I realize this can be a bit odd of a concept to grasp, so let me reiterate - times where, while the lines and intent of the writing wasn't necessarily a problem, but in the context of the scene your character did something or had a particular expression that just took you out of the moment?

2) Things you wanted to see more of. We've gotten some good feedback from you guys about the 5 different killing blows at the end of Legacy, and we'd definitely like to do more of that (though they may not always be quite as unique as those five, the idea that each weapon-type gets its own little flair is something we believe adds to the experience). But stuff like that.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

But please, don't limit yourself to these particular points. Anything and everything cinematics related would be useful to hear, as we want to push ourselves on future projects, and one way of doing that is to find out from you guys what worked, what didn't and what you think we could add to the process in the future.

These are great questions and it's just awesome to be asked. I want to play the DLCs again before I really get into it, but right off the top of my head, I had issues with the end of the Big Boss fight scene in MotA. Letting the guy fall was a very specific action that we had no choice about and it wasn't something that the character I was playing would have done. He would have pulled the guy up, handed him a sword and killed him. And what if I'd been playing a Hawke that wanted to do something else with him? Say, hand him over to the Ferelden government for questioning. Celene seemed to be involved, so that wouldn't have been a bad idea. If you want to have a character dead for sure, it might be best to add a failsafe death, allowing the PC to chose to do otherwise, but creating an unforseen event such as a knife thrown by a dying Qunari. I really don't want to be told what a PC would do or feel by cinematics.

[esper]

@errent.
I think the diplomatic actually tries to help him up, but he slahes at you with his sword so you drop him.

[FedericoV]

I've played Limbo in the last few days. That game is an academic course on visual storytelling.

Simple graphics. No voice over. No dialogues. The story feels great, better than most AAA title on the market. I cared about what I was doing. In many ways it rememberd me what I felt while playing Shadow of the Colossus because the gameplay and the artstyle are the story.

[Killjoy Cutter]

In general, the fact that the player is so often and widely powerless to change the overall course of events. One of the siblings will die at the beginning, in a cutscene, and you can't even affect which one. The player is never given the opportunity to follow up on Emric's investigation (Quentin), and so Leandra will die no matter what. If the sibling doesn't go into the Deep Roads, they will join the Circle / Templars no matter what. The player cannot follow up on suspicion about Anders in Act 3, so the Chantry will be blown up, no matter what. The player cannot make a grab for the Viscount's throne in Act 3, even though it's possible to gain wide public support. The player cannot actively move to remove / assassinate / oppose Meredith. No matter how much of a ruthless-Hawke you're playing, you can't just off Anders for the maps. You can't kill Petrice in Act 1. You can't actively search for the missing relic (the Tome of Koslun) -- hell, you can rarely be all that active about ANYTHING.

ANYTHING that would interfere with the story Bioware has set up, seems to be blocked. Frankly, the entire GAME is about being along for the ride -- it's not restricted to any one cutscene. This is why I've said that DA2 is less of a game and more of an "interactive cinematic experience."

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 novembre 2011 - 07:51 .

[frostajulie]

JohnEpler wrote...


1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics.
2) Things you wanted to see more of.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling.
.

In reference to number 2

there was an opportunity to tell warden Bethany you missed her smile and then Hawke does an adorable childish dance to get her to laugh.  That bit was very moving to me.  Hawke is this big bad ass hero who is hard and cold to the world but I rp all my Hawkes as very protective softies for Bethany and then my bad ass Hawke does a childish jig to amuse her sister and that moment was so very REAL and even though it was over pretty fast it really hit home and made me feel so bittersweet as I played because I knew I would not be seeing Bethany again after this DLC.  That moment solidified the realization that Hawke Loved her sister and they shared a bond that even transcended becoming a warden, that very singular familial moment of care and bonding was PERFECT.

I would like to see more of these.

[maxernst]

I feel that any narrative medium should strive to use their medium's dominant mode of communication as much as possible. For example, in films, it's generally best to have images and the ambient sounds that are really going on tell the story, rather than relying heavily on voice-over narrative or text on the screen. That's not to say those don't have their place, but I think good film makers try not to overuse them.

So for a CRPG, ideally, the story should be told within the gameplay as much as possible. A good example from ME is when you hear radio announcements about your activities or that are relevant to the plot while you're in an elevator. It tells the player what he needs to know while being seamlessly in the world. I really dislike cut scenes in which I am watching the action of people in some far away place that my PC couldn't possibly know anything about. If the information imparted by those cut scenes is important, they need to find some way to integrate it with what you see on the screen.

In more specific responses:

1) There were a number obvious places where the cinematics seize control from me, which I really dislike. Pretty much all boss battles, the game engine moves your characters around, and it really bugged me that no matter where Hawke and Anders were at the end of the fight in the gallows tunnels, there was no way for me to take direct action to stop him from killing Ella.

2) I liked a lot of the scenes where you go to your companion's house and other companions are interacting with them. That said, the mechanics seemed a little forced. Unless there's a good reasn why a conversation needs to be private, I don't think we should have to go see our friends to initiate the conversation. It worked great when you come home during the Qunari invasion and Aveline's talking about the crisis in the city and Isabela says, "I'm going to die!"

3) I know other people have said this, but Kirkwall felt way too static. Overhearing people talking about the great events of the day more would have been good, or having perhaps shops closing or moving over the years. Having ordinary people wandering around at night, at least in Hightown, in times when Kirkwall is safer and having them disappear when it becomes more dangerous.  Persistent damage from the Qunari invasion might have been nice.  And for god's sakes, have Fenris clean up the corpses in his house!

Modifié par maxernst, 20 novembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Dutchess]

For me the most immersion breaking was at the end of act 2 in Viscounts Keep. The Qunari have kidnapped all the nobles... and apparently most nobles are identical twins. Same suits in the same color, same hair with the same color, the same face... and the copies are standing right next to each other! If you don't feel like making all different models, just don't put the identical ones next to each other.

[maxernst]

renjility wrote...

For me the most immersion breaking was at the end of act 2 in Viscounts Keep. The Qunari have kidnapped all the nobles... and apparently most nobles are identical twins. Same suits in the same color, same hair with the same color, the same face... and the copies are standing right next to each other! If you don't feel like making all different models, just don't put the identical ones next to each other.

The in-breeding among the nobility in Kirkwall must be extreme.  Which would explain a lot!

[TEWR]

renjility wrote...

For me the most immersion breaking was at the end of act 2 in Viscounts Keep. The Qunari have kidnapped all the nobles... and apparently most nobles are identical twins. Same suits in the same color, same hair with the same color, the same face... and the copies are standing right next to each other! If you don't feel like making all different models, just don't put the identical ones next to each other.

While this is indeed a problem, Dragon Age: Origins had the same problem.

[SkittlesKat96]

I wouldn't mind if there was more ambient storytelling and companion banter (and DA 2 seemed to have a good amount of that but it can always be better.)

Its not the hardest thing to implement (besides having to get voice actors and pay for more voice acting) and it really adds to the enjoyment of the game.

Also I wish the cutscenes and interactive bits were more like the first Mass Effect game, ME 1 had the best role playing for a voiced protagonist and I liked the cutscenes and dialog in it a lot (not that ME 2 or the DA games do it bad but I liked ME 1 the most in terms of cutscenes and dialog)

[TheRealJayDee]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

renjility wrote...

For me the most immersion breaking was at the end of act 2 in Viscounts Keep. The Qunari have kidnapped all the nobles... and apparently most nobles are identical twins. Same suits in the same color, same hair with the same color, the same face... and the copies are standing right next to each other! If you don't feel like making all different models, just don't put the identical ones next to each other.

While this is indeed a problem, Dragon Age: Origins had the same problem.

Yet for some reason I really didn't notice it in DA:O, not in any of my playthroughs. Okay, I do might have noticed some twins at some points, but they never bothered me. In DA2 I saw clones all over the game. The nobles were one of the most annoying examples, but it's also weird being attacked by a dozen muggers, seven of them having one identical appearance, the other five having another.

[TheRealJayDee]

FedericoV wrote...

I've played Limbo in the last few days. That game is an academic course on visual storytelling.

Simple graphics. No voice over. No dialogues. The story feels great, better than most AAA title on the market. I cared about what I was doing. In many ways it rememberd me what I felt while playing Shadow of the Colossus because the gameplay and the artstyle are the story.

Limbo was the only game ever that made me regret not having an Xbox. Luckily it's out for PC and PS3 now. It's really amazing how much they did with what seemed so little. As you said, no uber-advanced graphics (hell, not even colours), no voice acting, simple controls etc. And it was one of the most atmospheric and immersive gaming experiences I had this year.

Btw: Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are among my favourite games of all time, yay for the HD remakes!!

[Dutchess]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

renjility wrote...

For me the most immersion breaking was at the end of act 2 in Viscounts Keep. The Qunari have kidnapped all the nobles... and apparently most nobles are identical twins. Same suits in the same color, same hair with the same color, the same face... and the copies are standing right next to each other! If you don't feel like making all different models, just don't put the identical ones next to each other.

While this is indeed a problem, Dragon Age: Origins had the same problem.

Yet for some reason I really didn't notice it in DA:O, not in any of my playthroughs. Okay, I do might have noticed some twins at some points, but they never bothered me. In DA2 I saw clones all over the game. The nobles were one of the most annoying examples, but it's also weird being attacked by a dozen muggers, seven of them having one identical appearance, the other five having another.

I had exactly the same. I finished Origins five times, and never noticed clones as much as I do in DAII. They probably covered it up better in Origins or something, I don't know. In DAII it really stands out, especially because the clones are right next to each other. At least put them at the other side of the room if you don't have time/money/energy/whatever to create enough different models. It looks so sloppy, and I think this is one thing that could be so easily remmedied. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

maxernst wrote...

1) There were a number obvious places where the cinematics seize control from me, which I really dislike. Pretty much all boss battles, the game engine moves your characters around, and it really bugged me that no matter where Hawke and Anders were at the end of the fight in the gallows tunnels, there was no way for me to take direct action to stop him from killing Ella.

That general complaint was one of my biggest issues with DA2 -- many cutscenes seemed to exist simply to take control away from the player just long enough to make absolutely certain that a specific thing happened. 

[Riknas]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

maxernst wrote...

1) There were a number obvious places where the cinematics seize control from me, which I really dislike. Pretty much all boss battles, the game engine moves your characters around, and it really bugged me that no matter where Hawke and Anders were at the end of the fight in the gallows tunnels, there was no way for me to take direct action to stop him from killing Ella.

That general complaint was one of my biggest issues with DA2 -- many cutscenes seemed to exist simply to take control away from the player just long enough to make absolutely certain that a specific thing happened. 

I agree with this point. Many of the cutscenes seemed a bit too much like, "Get out of jail free" cards, and just showed just how very little power we actually had,(Though I know you mentioned the possibility of Grace throwing up a barrier as one thing, which was a good idea). It's one thing when it's a grand force that's simply beyond you, it's another when it feels like your character is just too inept to do anything.

The death of Ser Thrask, and Nysa are great examples. I mean both times I was just standing there. Standing there. I get that Hawke is intended to be someone who more or less lived in the "Perfect Storm" where everything went wrong and he happened to be in the right place, but there has got to be a better way to present it.

Modifié par Riknas, 24 novembre 2011 - 02:54 .