405 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

Riknas wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

maxernst wrote...

1) There were a number obvious places where the cinematics seize control from me, which I really dislike. Pretty much all boss battles, the game engine moves your characters around, and it really bugged me that no matter where Hawke and Anders were at the end of the fight in the gallows tunnels, there was no way for me to take direct action to stop him from killing Ella.

That general complaint was one of my biggest issues with DA2 -- many cutscenes seemed to exist simply to take control away from the player just long enough to make absolutely certain that a specific thing happened. 

I agree with this point. Many of the cutscenes seemed a bit too much like, "Get out of jail free" cards, and just showed just how very little power we actually had,(Though I know you mentioned the possibility of Grace throwing up a barrier as one thing, which was a good idea). It's one thing when it's a grand force that's simply beyond you, it's another when it feels like your character is just too inept to do anything.

The death of Ser Thrask, and Nysa are great examples. I mean both times I was just standing there. Standing there. I get that Hawke is intended to be someone who more or less lived in the "Perfect Storm" where everything went wrong and he happened to be in the right place, but there has got to be a better way to present it.

With the death of Thrask Hawke is standing there, but no one  would expect Grace to turn on an ally who helped her escape. Even Thrask himself could not react in time.  It comes down to reaction time. Even with trained soldiers there is hestation. The difference is that the hestation is usually less than normal people, but still more than enough time to kill someone.

The death of Nyssa actually happens before Hawke gets there. Hawke stepping into the Alienage is what triggers the cutscene. It comes down to programming.

If you have not spoken to Nyssa the scene cannot trigger because that flag is not enabled. If you have spoken to Nyssa the first time that flag is enabled. That flag is then check a second time when Hawke sets foot in the Alienage. If the flag is enabled the cutscene fires and you the gamer get to see her getting killed.

Now what Bioware could have done was after you left Nyssa. The cutscene would trigger while you were in another part of the city and by the time you get back Huon has killed her and is siphoning off her blood. The battle would ensue. The point is that you do not get to prevent the deaths.

That is what some gamers are upset about. Bioware could have handled it like they did in Awakenings with Turnoble estate. All the people were dead when you got there. Some gamers complained about that quest because they did not get a chance to save the family.

[Killjoy Cutter]

And yet none of that changes the fact that you (the player) don't even get to try to save Thrask, Nyssa, the "other" sibling, etc.

[Realmzmaster]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

And yet none of that changes the fact that you (the player) don't even get to try to save Thrask, Nyssa, the "other" sibling, etc.

The same thing happens in DAO and Awakenings. In some of the quests you do not get to save the people. Brothers and Sisters comes to mind from DAO. All of the soldiers are dead before you get there. The Warden is not allowed to stay in Lothering and defend the village.  All the peole are dead in the Far Afield quest in Awakenings. You get to kill the darkspawn who killed them.

I think what most gamers are upset about is that the quests in DA2 happen along the main plot line. If it happened in a side quest like in Origins or Awakenings nobody would care as much.
Since On the Loose quest, All that Remains and Best Served Cold are part of the main plotline gamers feel more ineffectual because their Hawke cannot save or attempt to save Thrask, Nyssa, their mother and their sibling.

I on the other hand feel it is more realistic. That may be the other issue those who want to play a badass character in a high fantasy game expect to be able to save everyone especially those close to them. It comes as a letdown or shock when they cannot.

Now it may have been better if your Hawke was allowed to save Thrask or your sibling and then on the other hand unable to save your mother or Nyssa. or any combination. It would show no matter how badass your character is it cannot prevent death all the time even to those close to the character.

It is not new for Bioware to kill off people close to the Character. It was done in Baldur's Gate with Gorion. The Bhaalspawn was unable to save his mentor. (in fact his mentor told him to run while he held off the attackers). Also in the same game Khalid husband of Jaheria is killed without the Bhaalspawn being able to save him. (In fact the Bhaalspawn had to kill him when he was turned into a monster.)

It is nothing new for Bioware to kill off or prevent the saving of characters close to the main protaganist. So the fact that it happens does not bother me as much as it may others because I have seen it in most if not all of Bioware's games.

[TEWR]

The death of Nyssa actually happens before Hawke gets there. Hawke stepping into the Alienage is what triggers the cutscene. It comes down to programming.

That doesn't change the fact that I can enter Merrill's house, wait until night, and upon leaving be in the Alienage and Hawke just stands there.

In fact, he walked into the camera's viewpoint from the direction of Merrill's house IIRC.

Not only that, but the captain of the City Guard can hear everything Nyssa says, say something, and yet there are no Guardsmen in the Alienage trying to protect Nyssa. I'm fairly certain her comment was admitting how dangerous Huon was.

[Realmzmaster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The death of Nyssa actually happens before Hawke gets there. Hawke stepping into the Alienage is what triggers the cutscene. It comes down to programming.

That doesn't change the fact that I can enter Merrill's house, wait until night, and upon leaving be in the Alienage and Hawke just stands there.

In fact, he walked into the camera's viewpoint from the direction of Merrill's house IIRC.

Not only that, but the captain of the City Guard can hear everything Nyssa says, say something, and yet there are no Guardsmen in the Alienage trying to protect Nyssa. I'm fairly certain her comment was admitting how dangerous Huon was.

Even if you were in Merril's House the cutscene would happen the minute you left the house. You still could not prevent the death.  The program would just treat Hawke as not being in the Alienage but Merril's House. The minute you open the door the cut scene begins because Hawke has set into the Alienage proper.. The program will just treat the house as a separate entity within the larger entity which I surmize is how it works.

Now what Bioware could have done was have Hawke & Co act as bodyguard to Nyssa and intercept Huon. Nyssa could still be entraced by Huon. Hawke could then attack Huon and break the entracement. In the ensuing battle there is a chance that Nyssa could be killed if Hawke and company do not protect her.

Yes the captain of the Guard can hear if she is in the party. If that is the case it would make more sense to take her into protective custody. I doubt that the captain of the Guard would be able to assign a guardmen just to guard an elf. In fact I doubt a guardmens even patrols the Alienage which would be an oversight of the captain of the Guard, but consistent with what happens in an alienage.
If you notice in DAO, no one patrols the Alienage. The only reason why a templar is there is because of reported activity.

[Wulfram]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The same thing happens in DAO and Awakenings. In some of the quests you do not get to save the people. Brothers and Sisters comes to mind from DAO. All of the soldiers are dead before you get there. The Warden is not allowed to stay in Lothering and defend the village.  All the peole are dead in the Far Afield quest in Awakenings. You get to kill the darkspawn who killed them.

A big thing is that the Warden isn't present for all those things.  Hawke pretty much always turns up just in time to see people die.

[TEWR]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The death of Nyssa actually happens before Hawke gets there. Hawke stepping into the Alienage is what triggers the cutscene. It comes down to programming.

That doesn't change the fact that I can enter Merrill's house, wait until night, and upon leaving be in the Alienage and Hawke just stands there.

In fact, he walked into the camera's viewpoint from the direction of Merrill's house IIRC.

Not only that, but the captain of the City Guard can hear everything Nyssa says, say something, and yet there are no Guardsmen in the Alienage trying to protect Nyssa. I'm fairly certain her comment was admitting how dangerous Huon was.

Even if you were in Merril's House the cutscene would happen the minute you left the house. You still could not prevent the death.  The program would just treat Hawke as not being in the Alienage but Merril's House. The minute you open the door the cut scene begins because Hawke has set into the Alienage proper.. The program will just treat the house as a separate entity within the larger entity which I surmize is how it works.

Now what Bioware could have done was have Hawke & Co act as bodyguard to Nyssa and intercept Huon. Nyssa could still be entraced by Huon. Hawke could then attack Huon and break the entracement. In the ensuing battle there is a chance that Nyssa could be killed if Hawke and company do not protect her.

Yes the captain of the Guard can hear if she is in the party. If that is the case it would make more sense to take her into protective custody. I doubt that the captain of the Guard would be able to assign a guardmen just to guard an elf. In fact I doubt a guardmens even patrols the Alienage which would be an oversight of the captain of the Guard, but consistent with what happens in an alienage.
If you notice in DAO, no one patrols the Alienage. The only reason why a templar is there is because of reported activity.

Actually Lia can join the City Guard if Kelder was killed. Aveline is willing to allow Elves to be City Guardsmen, so yea. Guardsmen should've been present.

[Realmzmaster]

Yes Lia can join the city guard by volunteering. But it does not mean that a non-elf guardsmen would be sent to guard Nyssa. From what I can tell Lia appears to be the first elf in the Guards.

Edit: In fact Varric comments on Aveline being a Fereldan in the Guard. I can only assume that a Fereldan in the guard is a novelty let alone an elf.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 26 novembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[TEWR]

But it does mean that Elven guardsmen should be sent to guard Nyssa. If Aveline was willing to take one elf, that means she'd be willing to take more elves.

and considering a lot of Kirkwall's human population turns to crime rather than honest work, jobs wouldn't really be lost.

besides, there's a blood mage loose in the city and the City Guard by that point follows Aveline with a fierce amount of loyalty if one has her marry Donnic. That's why none of the guard joined Jeven's rebellion if the game is played that way.

They've made it clear they would follow her into the Void, and she would tell them that they should cast aside what petty hatreds they may have and protect the most likely target of a maleficarum attack.

[Realmzmaster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But it does mean that Elven guardsmen should be sent to guard Nyssa. If Aveline was willing to take one elf, that means she'd be willing to take more elves.

and considering a lot of Kirkwall's human population turns to crime rather than honest work, jobs wouldn't really be lost.

besides, there's a blood mage loose in the city and the City Guard by that point follows Aveline with a fierce amount of loyalty if one has her marry Donnic. That's why none of the guard joined Jeven's rebellion if the game is played that way.

They've made it clear they would follow her into the Void, and she would tell them that they should cast aside what petty hatreds they may have and protect the most likely target of a maleficarum attack.

Luckily in a video game it would be that simple. Actually there are two blood mages running around the city. One happens to be in Darktown. Also I do not think one guardsmen would stop Huon. In fact the guardsmen would probably become the victim and not Nyssa. As far as Huon is concerned guardsmen blood is just as useful. The one guardsmen may be able to hold off Huon until Hawke got there, but I doubt it.

[Wulfram]

Really, Hawke shouldn't be forced to abandon Nyssa after promising to protect her.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 novembre 2011 - 12:42 .

[AlexXIV]

It's a matter of '**** happens' or '**** happens all the time'.

When you want to create moments of drama, as in the hero fails, etc., then you should use them rarely. Because people should be 'suprised' by it. But if you fail 2 of 3 quests nobody is going to be suprised anymore. People just lose interest to go on with the story.

[Realmzmaster]

Another thought comes to mind if Hawke & company or a guardsmen were protecting Nyssa Huon may not show at all. Nyssa has to look unprotected to serve as bait. A guardsmen in the Alienage where none were before would arouse suspicion as would well armored individuals.

So Huon may just go attack some other target in LowTown. Huon could just wait until the guardsmen or Hawke leave. Since there are two other dangerous blood mages running about causing havoc Hawke could not stay forever.

[AlexXIV]

Maybe you just shouldn't have promised it. I mean it was rather obvious that you couldn't play bodyguard for the girl 7/24. I think Nyssa is an example that you can easily label 'don't make promises that you cannot keep'. Doesn't change the fact though that it still sucks if you enter the situation and then just watch her die. Either it should be, as someone said, that you get a cutscene while Hawke is not there or you get at least to try to help. The protagonist just standing and staring is a bad habit Bioware developed lately. Hopefully we won't see alot of this in future games anymore.

[Riknas]

Alex is right, even if we can't take action everywhere, it still could have been done better. Part of story-telling is providing the suspension of disbelief, and we really should not have to struggle to try and convince ourselves it makes sense.

[frostajulie]

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey folks.



1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. Were there moments where you felt 'hey, that's not something my Hawke would ever do!' that were not writing related. I realize this can be a bit odd of a concept to grasp, so let me reiterate - times where, while the lines and intent of the writing wasn't necessarily a problem, but in the context of the scene your character did something or had a particular expression that just took you out of the moment?

2) Things you wanted to see more of. We've gotten some good feedback from you guys about the 5 different killing blows at the end of Legacy, and we'd definitely like to do more of that (though they may not always be quite as unique as those five, the idea that each weapon-type gets its own little flair is something we believe adds to the experience). But stuff like that.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

In regards to 1- Sebastien just walks away after threatening Anders and threatening to level Kirkwall.  My mage who romanced Anders would have fried that guy on the spot rather than let him live.  My rogue who did everything for her sister would have knifed him in the throat.  No hawke who ever spares Anders wouyld just allow Sebastien to walk away.  I should have been able to kill him or been interrupted in a cutscene that allowed him to get away if he needs to survive for future story reasons but No hawke of mine would ever spare him, not after that threat.

Mother Petrice should not have survived our 2nd encounter in act 1.  It would have been better if we returned to an empty building than to have a cutscene that allows her to walk away without me trying to murder knife her.  Only the most diplomatic Hawkes would allow her to live.

And my biggest problem was Bethany getting hauled off to the circle.  Hawke would never have allowed it she would have died before she let it happen as it is she would never spend 3 years getting on with her life unless it was a 3 year plan to free her sister.  These were areas where I was railroaded by the story.  Knock me out have the templars beat me down but don't have me just stand there and watch them haul away whats left of my siblings.  Bethany was my Hawkes to protect and after she was through with the templars they would never have a need to worry about abominations, Hawkes berserker rage would have ended them.

In regards to 2- I loved how your LI and Aveline react to your loss in the story, Varrics warning about whatever LI you have was a nice touch but all friends should say something to you when such a tragedy occurs.  When Merrill comforts you about your sister going to the circle that was beautifully done.  I was actually really surprised Varric didn't say anything since he seemed very protective toward her. And thats another thing I loved and would like to see more of, the developing relationships between characters.  Varric had a soft spot for sweet girls as evidenced by his affection for both Merrill and Bethany, my friendly non****y hawke was a bit jeolous she didn't get a nickname even Anders got a Nickname but to Varric She was always Hawke.

In regards to 3- If I just slaughtered the Dalish Merrill should NOT be cracking wise about the folly of a sundermount camp.

These are my further thoughts after my 5th playthru.

[John Epler]

Just wanted to reply and thank everyone for the good feedback! It's definitely being taken into consideration, and as mentioned, we've got some ideas as to how to address some of it. How vague can I be? Apparently, very.

[AlexXIV]

No kidding ...

[John Epler]

AlexXIV wrote...

No kidding ...

What can I say. I'm well practiced.

[TEWR]

JohnEpler wrote...

Just wanted to reply and thank everyone for the good feedback! It's definitely being taken into consideration, and as mentioned, we've got some ideas as to how to address some of it. How vague can I be? Apparently, very.

That's good to hear, even if it's vague. This gives me a little bit of hope that Hawke will be able to be proactive, even if the plot should dictate that he must fail in his endeavor.

Please don't disappoint me and other people

[jlb524]

This will be addressed in upcoming DA2 DLC?

Yes? PLZ!!

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

This will be addressed in upcoming DA2 DLC?

Yes? PLZ!!

Now all we need is a Merrill-specific DLC.

[FaeQueenCory]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

This will be addressed in upcoming DA2 DLC?

Yes? PLZ!!

Now all we need is a Merrill-specific DLC.

Or... the "act 4" expansion!!!
But it will probably just be DLC...

[TEWR]

Actually, I wouldn't mind Merrill having a prominent role in both a DLC and an expansion, since it seems the Eluvians are key to Hawke's disappearance.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Even if it was never fixed and smashed to bits?