405 réponses à ce sujet

[Sanguinerin]

The perfect example of cinematics taking control away from me is in the quest, On the Loose.

This generally deals with what at least a few other people have said, the lack of reaction from Hawke. In the earlier part of the quest, you promise to protect Nyssa, Huon's wife. At nightfall, not only does Hawke fail in protecting her (which, I get it, you can't save everyone), but Hawke also doesn't even try. If Hawke were reacting appropriately, an arcane bolt or something would have been cast toward Huon to stop him. Or at least an attempted dagger-throw kill. Something.

Instead, Hawke just stands there... Watching this crazed blood mage kill an innocent woman.

I'm not keen on the idea of giving us moments to care about somewhere, but not giving us the opportunity to react properly. For example, I really liked Saemus, so Petrice would have had lightning thrown at her before she could even get a word in.

In general, this is a game where a lot of people die and you can't do anything about it. The number of plot deaths is kind of the killing factor in the game for me. The biggest problem with all of the plot deaths, however, is Hawke's generally blank expression at the sight of these deaths and the inability to even try in cutscenes to do something about it. Even if we still have to be forced into failure, at least let Hawke try to do something instead of standing there and watching.

There are so many moments where I wanted to say, "What are you doing? Why are you just standing there? Do something!!!"

Edit: additional examples.

And please, less ridiculously unaware NPCs. If I'm going to approach Cullen and blatantly tell him, "one of my companions may be plotting against the Chantry," then I'm going to go all the way and turn Anders in. That whole not-so-subtle approach doesn't cut it... Either let me turn him in, or don't let me be so ridiculous... That's probably the one moment where I didn't like Cullen. Plus, if you're going to tell a story about mages vs. templars, then please let there be more dramatic differences in the story if you're a mage, and have people respond appropriately.

As for ambience, Kirkwall felt extremely static. Change NPCs' (and companions') clothes and positions, change their dialogue (the guy looking for the Viscount?), etc. Make people rebuilding Kirkwall post-Qunari attack. These things would help, especially since we are supposed to be spending years in this one place.

This is a slight tangent on clothing and companions, but give them a different but unique outfit for each act if nothing else. I liked how Ramza's outfit in Final Fantasy Tactics changed throughout the different parts of the story, for example. Okay, sorry, I'll get off of that.

I think someone else mentioned birds that scatter when you approach them. Blacksmiths working at the anvil. Merchants calling out. How about merchants interacting with you again, instead of clicking on their wares? Children playing outside. I loved that moment in the Denerim Alienage when you could tell the two elf children about some fictional elf hero. Etc. Things like that.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 06 août 2011 - 06:20 .

[TEWR]

HallowedWarden wrote...

The perfect example of cinematics taking control away from me is in the quest, On the Loose.

This generally deals with what at least a few other people have said, the lack of reaction from Hawke. In the earlier part of the quest, you promise to protect Nyssa, Huon's wife. At nightfall, not only does Hawke fail in protecting her (which, I get it, you can't save everyone), but Hawke also doesn't even try. If Hawke were reacting appropriately, an arcane bolt or something would have been cast toward Huon to stop him. Or at least an attempted dagger-throw kill. Something.

Instead, Hawke just stands there... Watching this crazed blood mage kill an innocent woman.

I'm not keen on the idea of giving us moments to care about somewhere, but not giving us the opportunity to react properly. For example, I really liked Saemus, so Petrice would have had lightning thrown at her before she could even get a word in.

In general, this is a game where a lot of people die and you can't do anything about it. The number of plot deaths is kind of the killing factor in the game for me. The biggest problem with all of the plot deaths, however, is Hawke's generally blank expression at the sight of these deaths and the inability to even try in cutscenes to do something about it. Even if we still have to be forced into failure, at least let Hawke try to do something instead of standing there and watching.

There are so many moments where I wanted to say, "What are you doing? Why are you just standing there? Do something!!!"

Yes this^^^.

For me, it was Act of Mercy. I played a Mage Hawke who brought Merrill and Anders with me, as well as Carver and I couldn't try and get Decimus to not attack me because the plot demanded he act like an idiot and attack 3 mages. I couldn't even defer to one of my mage allies! I could've understood him attacking me if I held a conversation with him and I said "I'm turning you over". That would've been fine.

Hell I don't even mind that certain quests would always end a certain way. I just wish they wouldn't end exactly the same way with no differences whatsoever. Had I been able to convince Decimus and his group to stand down, if Bioware still wanted the rebellion to fail they could've just had Cullen come in with his group and put a stop to it. Truthfully though, I wouldn't want that to happen.

It's even worse in Best Served Cold when the Mages and Templars attack you for "spying for Orsino". That makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. Sorry for the caps, but it really doesn't. Orsino's the one who wants Meredith ousted and the mages to have a better life and they attack his allies? And Hawke can't even tell them to stand down?

Bah..... the whole "The Plot Demands It!" thing just really makes me mad.

[Addai]

I know there's probably a drinking game about this, but seriously- in terms of ambient storytelling in the world- study The Witcher. They do a fantastic job of having a world feel alive and reactive. There's rain and NPCs react to the rain, dodging for cover. People are going about their business, and doing so in astonishing detail. They talk to and about Geralt as he passes. It makes *everything* more interesting, because you sense this is a world with possibilities, where anything could happen.

I think people have already stated numerous times where having the camera focus on Hawke was a drawback. People talk about the lifeless Warden, but there's risk in having the PC show facial expression that doesn't fit with the player's imagination. So just limit those camera angles. I'd rather not see my PC at all than see her react inappropriately.

[Sanguinerin]

Addai67 wrote...

I think people have already stated numerous times where having the camera focus on Hawke was a drawback. People talk about the lifeless Warden, but there's risk in having the PC show facial expression that doesn't fit with the player's imagination. So just limit those camera angles. I'd rather not see my PC at all than see her react inappropriately.

I agreed with your first paragraph, too, but I wanted to comment on this.

I agree very much with this. The over-the-shoulder shot with the Warden meant that you could imagine your own facial expression on your character. If you're shocked, your Warden could also be shocked. Considering that you're at an angle where you're almost in the same position as your Warden (facing the speaker), and the face isn't shown, helps convey that your Warden could be reacting in the same way that you are. It's like near-first person, and I think that helps. Showing a blank Hawke, or a Hawke conveying a reaction that doesn't match how you want Hawke to react, both situations can be very damaging to one's enjoyment. It takes away that feeling that this is actually your character because said character is doing something you wouldn't want them to be doing.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I was taken out of immersion with the love interests. I think in DAO you guys did a great job and we got to see alot of cut scenes with our love interest and the relationships develop. We're in Kirkwall for 10 years and we got very little in this area. Take Alistair as an example. Any player in a romance with him could walk up and get a kiss just for getting a kiss or the sweetness of I agree let's get some sleep. Even kissing him on the road or not while private and the reactions of some party members were wonderful. Have npcs stop and look too at the kiss. Like in the Redcliffe tavern, that was funny. With DA2 this did not happen. At times my relationships were puzzles to me. Ok, why did I just get this reaction? Same thing with Anders in DA2, wow that was some kiss and I loved watching that. Unfortunately, I didn't have enough dialogue with him during our relationship for it to mean much. With Alistair, Leliana, Morrigan, and Zevran I did. I feel Bioware made a hugh mistake in not having the dialogue play both ways. PC can approach npcs, companions, and love interest. I enjoyed talking with Gorim and the Orlai merchant in DAO. I miss these in DA2.

If the pc is responding during the cinematic the response and the tone need to match the choice and the facial expression. I love the line....another demon another delusion. I thought some of the boss fights that ended with cinematics were well done. Some alittle to fast in showing all of the details but for the most part I loved them. Kinda hard getting screenies in there, they are just to fast. Let's face it, many of us have screenshot addiction.

Our boat arriving in Kirkwall and we can actually see our players come out on deck if you watch close enough. Isabela's knife throw in the Chantry was beautifully done and went with the story, I was disppointed in my response. If an npc is looking for a pet show the pet in another part of town or something. Go tell the pet owner where the pet is be nice or evil about it. Companion comments along the way.

I did enjoy hearing alot of the npcs and their funny conversations. Like someone recognizing Hawke working for mercenaries or with Isabela. The guards saying hi to Aveline or recognizing her as captain. I thought many of these were well done even though many of these situations were not cut scenes.

If we're going to be having battles in the streets during daylight hours then no npcs walking through the battle. I was like OMG, what is this lady doing in the middle of my battle. If the battle triggers, the npc gets killed or runs out of the way in fright. I got killed right there the first time it happened because my focus turned to her not my enemies I was fighting.

I wouldn't mind if a blind npc with a cane comes walking along and everybody stops - party and enemies alike and then the blind npc passes and the fight is back on. I think that we be kinda funny, this is just me however.

I hope this helps with ideas and thanks for the opportunity to provide this feedback.

[HopHazzard]

1. The only reaction in a cinematic that ever really took me out of the character was Hawke's little smirk after Isabela hits on him/her after her recruit quest is done. Only one of my Hawkes has ever been anything even resembling amused/interested at that point. It also sticks out since you get a flirt dialog option at the end of every other recruit quest for an LI and here Isabela is hitting on you and you don't get to choose how to respond. As a warning I'll say watch the mage finishers. If I've got a Primal focused mage killing a boss with a fireball in a cutscene I'm gonna wonder where he/she learned that spell.

2. Not sure if it's a cinematic issue or not, but I'd like the animated deathblows in combat like we had in Origins back. The vistas were cool. Especially when your companions would comment on what you were seeing. Anything that gets your followers more active in cut scenes is better. I don't want to be that guy, but I'm going to refer to Mass Effect 2. Specifically, Lair of the Shadowbroker. In the killing blow cinematic, Shepard and Liara worked together to bring the boss down. Being the hero is cool and all, but one of the things I like about party based RPGs is that feeling that I'm on a team. It would be cool to see each of your party members doing something to help you kill the boss. I know that may be a bit harder since you have more characters to work with, but since these scenes are few and far between I'm sure you could do it. It would actually add to replay value for me, taking different characters into battles to see how they handle things differently.

3. I strongly support the idea of more stuff going on in the background. There should be kids running around the marketplace. People walking all over the place, stopping at vendor stalls, meeting on the street and stopping to talk for a minute then moving on, walking in on a couple making out when open one of those doors in the Hanged Man. If a fight breaks out in broad daylight, people should flee the area, cower behind their stalls, or go run for the guard. I didn't get too far into Assassin's Creed, but one of the things I liked was if you drew too much attention to yourself, people would actually notice.

Others have mentioned how weird it is to walk up to a companion at their home base and start a conversation only to be transported to a different part of the room and find them talking to someone who wasn't there a second ago or may have been with me when I entered the area. If the script says it's time for that Isabela/Merrill scene they should already be sitting at the table together when the Hanged Man loads up, and if one or both of them is in my party, then that conversation shouldn't be available.

Other issues: Nothing cinematic off the top of my head, but if you could please pass along to the writers that some sort of acknowlegement of the Anders romance (if you did it) during and after his little freakout in Legacy would have been nice. Hell, a little reaction from any of your love interests would've been nice at some point. You get some heavy stuff dropped on you about your father's past. Would've been nice if they'd asked you how you felt about it. Though again, I realize that's not in your wheel house. Also, don't put party banter trigger points near where it's possible to get ambushed (I'm looking at you, Wounded Coast). Not only is it immersion breaking to have Bethany and Merrill chatting about how cool it would be to have a pet griffin while we're being attacked by pirates, but I miss the conversation through all the battle noise.

Modifié par HopHazzard, 07 août 2011 - 08:33 .

[Morroian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's even worse in Best Served Cold when the Mages and Templars attack you for "spying for Orsino". That makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE. Sorry for the caps, but it really doesn't. Orsino's the one who wants Meredith ousted and the mages to have a better life and they attack his allies? And Hawke can't even tell them to stand down?

Yes he can and they do but Grace then kills Thrask. BSC makes sense if you assume Grace is influencing them with blood magic.

[Nyreen]

JohnEpler wrote...
1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. 

Like others have mentioned, At the end of Fools Rush In, after Isabela's proposition the expression on my straight female Hawke's face was a little too smug for my taste! Where is the Renegade-reject-trigger, please?

Sister Helen wrote...
1)
a)  With respect to Legacy cinematics that threw me, as a player, out of the
game, in a bad way: There are at least two scenes where Anders
begins to lose control and begs for help from Hawke ("his
love").  Hawke just stands there and looks a bit bored; in the latter
one, he stands a bit to the side, and the point of view is at Anders, looking
up at Hawke.  It felt disconnected.
Based on the writing of DA2 (and how the interaction between diplomat Hawke and
Anders as LI in that game), it felt bizarre Hawke would stand several feet
away, at a distance, from a person with whom he/she was in a touchy-feely-kissy
relationship.  I thought, "Are you KIDDING me? You can't even touch the guy on the
shoulder or something? Lame."

^This. I adored hearing Anders call Hawke "my love" and crying
for my help, but then my character stood MOTIONLESS and EXPRESSIONLESS as he
cried out in agony??!! It was a heart-wrenching scene, but fell short with
Hawke's response.

2) Things you wanted to see more of.

Regarding the scene described above, it would have been great to have Hawke rush forward, on her knees - holding on
to him and trying to calm him. Throughout DA2 - whenever Anders went into
"Justice-rage-mode" I wish that Hawke had a Dragon Age version
paragon-trigger, so my Hawke could try physically comforting/calming him,
instead of standing 10 feet away. Implementing something like that helped Mass Effect players felt like they had real-time control during cinematic scenes. DA3 could use some of that.
Also....

DahliaLynn wrote...

Anders - that big incredibly kiss he gives Hawke after three years of missing
her for me was like (where did that come from??) I barely know you, and
only flirted with you a bit) It surprised me on my first playthrough

^ In regards to that big, awesome, steamy first-kiss from Anders, from a
cinematic standpoint that was flawlessly done. How he lunges at Hawke, the breathy kiss, the lovesick, desperate expression on his face. (And the
panting!!)...it was incredible.

However, as DahliaLynn said, because there was no little companion conversation
dialogue in DA2 compared to Origins, I too was surprised by the kiss. By the
end of Dragon Age 2, I felt I got to know more about Alistair in six
months than I got to know about Anders over the course of seven years.


I would also like for romances to have larger consequences (Good example from DA2 would be LI being abducted during a quest, if Hawke's sibling had died.)

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling.

The bad: This has been mentioned thousands of times, but Kirkwall was supposed to be filled with refugees. Instead it was almost as empty as a ghost-town.

The good: In Legacy, companion banter really was taken up a notch. Especially references to my romance options, us players always love that!! I also enjoyed Hawke joining the conversation more often. (As long as Hawke's ambient dialogue is neutral, or actually leans towards the players usual conversation tree options, Hawke speaking for his/herself is welcome in companion banter!)

Modifié par Celestina, 08 août 2011 - 08:31 .

[esper]

HopHazzard wrote...

Other issues: Nothing cinematic off the top of my head, but if you could please pass along to the writers that some sort of acknowlegement of the Anders romance (if you did it) during and after his little freakout in Legacy would have been nice. Hell, a little reaction from any of your love interests would've been nice at some point. You get some heavy stuff dropped on you about your father's past. Would've been nice if they'd asked you how you felt about it. Though again, I realize that's not in your wheel house. Also, don't put party banter trigger points near where it's possible to get ambushed (I'm looking at you, Wounded Coast). Not only is it immersion breaking to have Bethany and Merrill chatting about how cool it would be to have a pet griffin while we're being attacked by pirates, but I miss the conversation through all the battle noise.

If your sibling is not with you, your Li reacts to some of that, but sibling override Li because heavy stuff about your father's past directly involves them too. 

[Foolsfolly]

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey folks.

So I've been wanting to do this topic for a while, but I felt it might be best if I waited until Legacy had launched and percolated for a bit before doing so. Mostly because I feel that Legacy better represents the state of cinematics in Eclipse (and the Dragon Age franchise) than DA2 did, if for no other reason than those of us who worked on DA2 have had a chance to grow into our roles a little more.

With that in mind, I wanted to get some discussion and feedback going from the community, specifically in regards to the cinematics of DA2 and its DLC. What kind of feedback? Well, there are a few questions/comments that have come up that I'd like to delve into a little bit more.

1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. Were there moments where you felt 'hey, that's not something my Hawke would ever do!' that were not writing related. I realize this can be a bit odd of a concept to grasp, so let me reiterate - times where, while the lines and intent of the writing wasn't necessarily a problem, but in the context of the scene your character did something or had a particular expression that just took you out of the moment?

2) Things you wanted to see more of. We've gotten some good feedback from you guys about the 5 different killing blows at the end of Legacy, and we'd definitely like to do more of that (though they may not always be quite as unique as those five, the idea that each weapon-type gets its own little flair is something we believe adds to the experience). But stuff like that.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

But please, don't limit yourself to these particular points. Anything and everything cinematics related would be useful to hear, as we want to push ourselves on future projects, and one way of doing that is to find out from you guys what worked, what didn't and what you think we could add to the process in the future.

You know I remember you saying you wanted to start this thread a while back. I just thought you got too busy to do it.

1- Would inaction count in this? There are a few times where something bad is happening right in front of Hawke and Hawke does nothing. The biggest example I can think of would be that blood mage elf who kills his girlfriend and Hawke's standing like three feet to the left of them while it happens.

Now I'm sadly aware that people often do not act in these situations (Kitty Genovese comes to mind). But as a video game role playing action hero...well, couldn't Hawke hit the guy with a spell? An arrow? The Murder Knife? Something? I have to watch this guy murder her and then stand there like an idiot waiting for him to attack?

2- Epic moments. Replaying ME2 for the umpteenth time and that game just oozes awesome into my skull. Commander Shepard is awesome and capable. Every companion gets at least one epic moment (in their introduction and in the finale, usually). I can't really say the same for DA2 characters. Hawke gets a few decent bits as did Varric in his introduction. But outside of those? Not so much.

I'd like some more epic moments. Both showcasing character abilities and in terms of music and camera work.

3- Ambient storytelling? The lack of Templars noticing the Mage fighting the massive amount of ninjas in the game? The fact that guardsmen walk right past fights in the street. In fact, the fact that no NPC seems to notice the lightning storms and gang wars around them.

Other than that, you guys have always been rather good at ambient storytelling. NPCs talking about plot points and previous missions. Books telling history and giving insight into the story. It's all there.

[Carmen_Willow]

Faust1979 wrote...

 I love the cinematics in Bioware games it makes me feel like I'm watching a movie in control of because I hope they don't get taken out.  They could be more interactive though maybe if we could make quick decisions during certain scenes that would let the story flow in certain directions 

Oh yes, this.  Interrupts!  Love them in  ME 2. I guess they would have to be Friend/Rival but that would be fun.

And will we ever see strings on bows?

Floating swords are jarring.

[In Exile]

JohnEpler wrote...
1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics. Were there moments where you felt 'hey, that's not something my Hawke would ever do!' that were not writing related. I realize this can be a bit odd of a concept to grasp, so let me reiterate - times where, while the lines and intent of the writing wasn't necessarily a problem, but in the context of the scene your character did something or had a particular expression that just took you out of the moment?

The issues, for me, come down to what I call actions-without-prompts. The best example that comes to mind here is at the end of Act II, when Hawke and Aveline head to see the Arishok. Once he springs his ambush, Aveline and Hawke escape... but not before Hawke punches a qunari square in the jaw. 

I had several issues with that scene: 1) if you have a mage Hawke, the scene just looks ridiculous; I get that a mailed fist might knock out a qunari, but just a bare human nuckle on what is basically Andre the Giant? 2) it wasn't in character for my Hawke to use barehanded physical violence like that (either as an archer rogue, or as a mage). 

I think that whenever you have to have Hawke take a combat action, you need to create class appropriate cinematics (so each character does something different in that scene), or otherwise have someone else act.

So in that scene you might have a guardsman save Hawke by punching the qunari, then Hawke trying to draw his or her weapon, and Aveline saying ''Not now!''

2) Things you wanted to see more of. We've gotten some good feedback from you guys about the 5 different killing blows at the end of Legacy, and we'd definitely like to do more of that (though they may not always be quite as unique as those five, the idea that each weapon-type gets its own little flair is something we believe adds to the experience). But stuff like that.

I'd like to see more body language. That's in general. More hand-waving, more gestures. That's likely what some people will complain about with Hawke - too much gesturing might be out  of character, whereas I would say to little gesturing is out of character.

I think this is something you can work out with the writing team, to be honest. If there was some way of telegraphing how active Hawke was going to be for any line of dialogue, you could just tie in that cinematic to the dialogue.

Though to be honest, I would really like an 'action' wheel to go along with the dialogue wheel, where we can pick how the PC acts after saying something. The line could always be the same, said the same way... but then the action could be diferent (e.g. you could have, emphasis, withdraw, and attack). For emphasis, the PC gestures. For widthrawn, the PC is taunt. For attack, you have a class appropriate (but recycled for every scene this is available) combat animation. 

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. More specifically, it's those little touches like when you see guards patrolling on a wall, or a smith in a forge moving from his anvil and back again. This is something we'd like to push more in the future, and examples where you guys thought to yourself 'hey, why is X not happening?' would be useful. This last point is a tricky one - engine limitations exist. But still. That's our problem, not yours.

Anytime there are groups of people, we have a chance for ambient storytelling. Look at the endgames in Act II and Act III - we have civil war in the streets. People running, screaming, beggining for help and being killed - that all adds to the desperation. 

Combat areas, if they're populated, should be more than just a stage for fighting. People actively reacting to combat makes combat seem 'real'. 

Otherwise, I always want to see people doing things that are logical in an area, even if the behaviours are recycled. Like talking and pacing if we're seeing the Viscount, or carrying crates if we're at the docks, or bartering with clients if we're at the markets. 

But please, don't limit yourself to these particular points. Anything and everything cinematics related would be useful to hear, as we want to push ourselves on future projects, and one way of doing that is to find out from you guys what worked, what didn't and what you think we could add to the process in the future.

Even better camera work? DA2 was a huge step foward there, but there's always room for improvement. I think the cinematic direction is what makes or breaks the scene. There were some aspects of DA2 that just really resonated with me based on how the cinematic was made, whereas others fell apart because of it. 

Hawke just sweathing his weapon in the regular fashion (essentially) after dueling the Arishock was dissapointing. If we had a unique 'kill' cinematic like with Corypheus... that would have sold the scene and been a powerful bookend to Act II for Hawke becoming champion.

Whereas I really like how Hawke & co. looked walking away from the templars in the mage ending for Act III. The panning really sold me on the scene. 

I would say we need to up the degree to which characters interact with the environment in cinematics. DA2 did a great job, but it was rare. More fidgeting, more thumb twidling, more playing with a pencil or quill. 

And less standing! I'm really tired just seeing people stand. I'd kill for some walking & talking cinematics. I loved that at the start of Act I. 

[aries1001]

As I stated in another thread, last night I finally beat the Rock Wraith at the end of chapter 1. My Hawke was dead (or unconscious), then suddenly for the final she wakes up and kills the Rock Wraith in a stunning revival or resurrection. I couldn't believe yet; yet it happened before my very eyes. Here I felt that control were taken away from me as a player. I do know that money is an object, so it is understable that you did it in this way. On the cinematic side of the design, great job....

Another thing is this:
When I went to the Chantry, I spoke to Mother Elthina, the options were made so I could investigate, and then close or ask for blessing or I could say something, ask her something about say the Qunari, then after this, the options were to close the conversation and something I can't remember right now. Here I again felt control being taken from me as player. However, maybe there is a story reason behind why this is so?

[fchopin]

The cinematic for killing Anders should have been more dramatic in my opinion.

Stabbing Anders in the back was a letdown for me, it looked cheap and made Hawke look cheap.
If we could slit Anders neck or have Hawke stand in front of Anders and then show cinematically Hawke stabbing Anders in the stomach maybe in a slow motion for one or two seconds it would have made the scene more dramatic.

I would have also preferred Hawke to have an expressionless or a poker face while this was done to show the seriousness of the scene.

No disrespect to John Epler, just my opinion.

[Arisu]

I think ambient storytelling is incredibly important, and it was something I found lacking in DA2.

In DA:O I played a Circle Mage. The circle I was introduced to was filled with people practicing magic, teachers I could talk to, gossiping students (gossiping about MY character), mages arguing about mage related things, templars watching. The huge bookshelves in the library. The closed doors. No windows.
By the time I finished my origin, I knew what my character was like, because I knew where she came from. That's what I loved about DA:O, it gave you SO much roleplaying input. (That's probably why people connected so much to their wardens. I like Hawke, but the Prologue of DA2 had NOTHING of this, and I missed all these little things greatly.)

Now, as for Legacy, I'm not sure what made it feel so much better than the rest of DA2, but I think the companion interaction was a great improvement. Their reactions to their surrounding helped to bring it alive, I guess.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

JohnEpler wrote...

1) Moments where you felt like control was taken away from you by the cinematics.

Most of these are, I think, a result of dialogue not meshing with cinematics, or the right hand not knowing what the left is doing. Dialogue seems to offer a choice of how to proceed, but cinematics then takes those choices away (not necessarily the fault of the cinematics designers, mind you, just how the end result looked).

Best Served Cold - While dialogue advises you to sneak in and eavesdrop, cinematics have you run in and battle ensues. I don't think this quest is the only scenario where it happens (a contact at the Hanged Man offers 'extra money' for eavesdropping), but it's the one I remember most clearly.

On the Loose - The PC knows Huon is coming, but just lets him eviscerate his wife rather than interfering.

The Deep Roads Expedition - Hawke gives that bloody idol to Varric. In my game, after Anders' dialogue about it being practically cursed, handing it to a companion would have been the last thing I'd do.

The Last Straw - Don't tell me no one thought of killing Anders or at least knocking him out cold when he began monologuing like an archvillain. Instead Hawke is all concerned/questioning, "Anders?"

Fenris Romance - It makes more sense for the scenario when Fenris pins Hawke to the wall first, but I found it immersion-breaking for my Hawke to pin Fenris without that precursor.

To name a few. I'd have to replay to get them all.

2) Things you wanted to see more of.

RPGers can be incredibly vain about their characters, and lap up every opportunity to take a screenshot. Anything that shows them a picture of 'themselves', even in a non-heroic and normal situation. Hawke ordering a drink at the Hanged Man, for instance, which was neat.

We've already got little bits of dialogue at set locations, like Hawke's mansion, so more instances of little bits of PC animation might be nice--especially if some control is given to the player on what the animation is, where appropriate.

For instance, assume there's a full-length mirror as part of the scenery. The PC could click on it and be given a few options on how to interact with it as well as 'leave': 'Heroic pose', 'Saucy Pose', 'Compliment/Kiss Own Reflection'. You could even do 'Drag XXX in front of mirror with you' or 'Break Mirror', the latter of which would remove the option for future tomfoolery.

A musical instrument. Allow the PC to try and play it. if they are a bard, allow them to play an actual *song* and gather an audience. 

A sword or armour at camp: allow the PC to sharpen or clean it.

A stewpot at camp: show the PC preparing supper, burning it, dishing it out or cleaning up, lighting the fire (with magic if a fire mage), putting it out.

Coming from Ultima, where you could 'Use' just about everything in the entire damn world, I highly approve of interaction with the environment to make it seem less static.

3) Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling.

The issue of ambient storytelling not changing with the years, which was sometimes the case in DA2, seems to have been addressed so... *ponder*

We hear about refugees catching and eating the local 'wildlife' for food, so maybe show people chasing cats, if not skinning them and selling their fur to noblewomen for hats. We hear about card games but never see them. We hear about templar brutality and mages being a menace in Kirkwall, but besides some set quest pieces don't really see any templars doing their duty and dragging mages (or child mages) from their homes. Seeing the guard solving some crimes, even minor ones, without needing to go to the PC would be nice (returning a citizen's stolen purse, defeating a mugger, etc). Seeing the lot of the poor visibly improve if the PC takes an active part in donating/doing quests, rather than just some 'We're doing better thanks to you!' barks (add better quality beds/blankets to a poorhouse, open new accomodations...). We were told the templars were coming close to finding Anders, yet never see a templar in Darktown except for a few quest situations. Maybe we could have seen a pair of them being tricked into searching elsewhere by an urchin or one of Varric's agents to make the threat seem more real. Likewise taxmen coming to check on Fenris' mansion. Lyrium is a Chantry-restricted substance yet we never see or hear anything troubling about Hawke dealing with it as a crafting material.

Mainly I'm talking backing up the claims of dialogue with ambient storytelling here. When someone mentions there's a plague of rats in the sewers you should see a bloody plague of rats if you happen to go that way.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 10 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[Big_Chief]

1) Off the top of my head, moments in cinematics that felt like they took me out of the situation (I'm honestly not sure if a couple of these count as cinematics or writing, so sort through them as you will).

The first one that came to mind was when you were looking into the band of rogue mages at the behest of Orsino in the third act. He advises you to be cautious and try to find out why they are meeting without alerting them. You go there, and Hawke just casually strolls right up to the group and they attack him. What happened to caution, Hawke ? Another cinematic problem with that quest is at the end, when Grace goes nuts and decides to kill Thrask the helpful templar, and Hawke just kinda stands there, not even trying to stop Grace. It's not like he was helpful or nice, or a friend, or anything, just let Grace kill the guy with blood magic. It's cool. Similarly, Hawke failing to stop Huon from killing his wife, despite knowing when and where the meeting was to take place.

Another moment that took me out of a scene at a very unfortunate time was in the quest line where you track down your mom. When you finally find her, there's a weird sort of zoom in on Hawke's shocked face (a somewhat unconvincing shocked face, at least in my opinion) that seemed more humorous and silly than actually dramatic, and took me out of an otherwise dramatic and important scene.

Yet another scene that comes to mind is the lyrium idol in the deep roads. There's a very ominous looking idol making a very ominous sounding hum. One of your companions makes a comment about how strange it is. So let's just pick it up without showing any caution, instead of leaving it or studying it. Not only that, let's toss it to Bartrand, who is already sounding strange and trance-like even before actually picking the thing up. The whole thing seemed like everyone had to behave in a dumb manner for the plot to not fall apart.


2) Uncertain. Thinking back, I distinctly remember a scene that had good use of expressions and body language. There was a flirt option with Merrill in her house where she got embarrassed and looked away from Hawke, but very clearly glanced back out of the corner of her eye to see how Hawke was reacting. It did a great job of setting the mood of the conversation, and expressed a lot about her character, in a small movement. There wasn't really any nuances like that in DA1 conversations, which were mostly just stock, standing looking at each other and use canned hand gestures.


3) As for ambient storytelling, the classic example is Hawke raining fire down from the sky while Merrill openly practices blood magic on the streets, and not only does that templar standing right there not notice or care, but random civilians will actually just go ahead and stroll right through the fireballs and sword swinging and flying arrows as though nothing were happening. A bit silly.

Also, Kirkwall felt very sparse, with only a handfull of characters just standing about not doing anything at all, or just walking back and forth. The example Mr. Epler used, a blacksmith perhaps hammering a sword on an anvil and then dipping it in the water to cool it off, then starting on the next sword, might work. Some kids playing in the streets. A couple of stray cats or dogs, or a dog chained to a post outside someones house, some crows perched on a streetsign. Some destitute Ferelden refuges or elves huddled on a street corner begging for coins. Gross rats crawling over things in Darktown, to drive home the point that it's kind of an unpleasant place to live/visit. Watching Kirkwall change (or decay, if the situation gets worse) over the years. Some of those suggestions, such as the dogs and cats, and playing children, were even present in DA1, though to a limited degree. The lack of all of them are probably a part of why Kirkwall didn't feel very well realized.

Another suggestion: use weather to add atmosphere to a scene. Rain or storms, fog, a nice sunset, gloomy and overcast (had a bit of this with Sundermount), dramatic wind, etc. I don't really know how much the tech would support that, though (the wind especially).

Companions could be going about their business in their house. Sweeping up. Merril could be on one of her seats reading, or working on the mirror. Isabela could be lounging about the bar drinking. Anders could be healing a patient, or writing his manifesto. Aveline could be chewing out some new recruits. Fenris could be pacing back and forth in a brooding manner, as he is wont to do. Varric could be counting coins in his room, or cleaning Bianca. Sebastian could be praying, or reciting the chant, or other churchy stuff. If the party camp makes a return in the future, companions could be making dinner by the campfire, or tidying up their tent and stuff. The one problem I could think of is making it seem natural to transition from these to your conversation if you click on them, so I don't know how feasible they would be.


As a sidenote, it's really neat that you guys at Bioware continue to go to the community to see what we think about these things and get our input for the future. Very cool.

Modifié par Big_Chief, 09 août 2011 - 08:39 .

[Foolsfolly]

Mainly I'm talking backing up the claims of dialogue with ambient storytelling here. When someone mentions there's a plague of rats in the sewers you should see a bloody plague of rats if you happen to go that way.

QFT.

[broncos1123]

The big thing for me was what you covered in number 2. Weapon type killing blows. It was immersion breaking when I was an archer and there was a scene where I'm performing a killing blow and dual wielding daggers. That was my biggest gripe cinematic wise. Thanks!

[John Epler]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I'm reading this thread, and there's some really good feedback thus far Thanks!

Will try and answer in more depth tomorrow, as today was a little busier than expected.

[Darth Krytie]

The only moment that well and truly yanked me out of the game was not being able to save that poor elf from her crazy blood mage husband of hers. I kept yelling at the screen, where's my paragon interrupt?

In general, anytime there was an NPC killing another NPC with any sort of obvious time to stop them and I had no way to do it.

When a LI kills Anders, it's really impersonal...I wish, when Anders was my LI, you could give him a hug, kiss him, then stab him in the gut, and lower him gently to the ground. (Since not everyone would want it...the options could "die, fiend!" "die, my love" or "save yourself, you knucklehead"

I liked the killing blows in Legacy a lot. (I also liked a lot of the surprise attacks from enemies, there, too.)

I thought my Hawke looked generally suitably sarcastic most of the time. Like he was annoyed with the whole world.

I like anytime I passed by certain shops, that I got called out to go to their stores.

3. Maybe if we're killing people in the street, NPCs hide? I thought it was weird...down in the Foundry, et al, when I was all slaughtering the latest bunch of idiots, and the lady was just standing there, watching.

I think that it would be nice if when we went into the Hanged Man, again, that people greeted Hawke.

I also want to #th everyone who mentioned Fenris' mansion...I think it should have changed appearance over the years. Take out the dead bodies...make it look better or worse (as Aveline nags him or as it furthers into a state of disrepair.)

Or when Hawke's house in third year...more stuff should be there...To show he's lived there a while. I think it should have been allowed to go into Leandra's room...to mourn her. Like sit on her bed, look at her things...have a scene in there. Maybe only three years later, to show you've mourned, but moved on. Something.

I think there should be more indication of your LI in your home than them standing up there.

[esper]

I just remembered another place where my Hawke acted really out of character for my Hawke. My Hawke was a diplomatic base personality so in the final speak she said that something like: 'We didn't want this' - that is a direct lie, because she had the whole act three tried to provoke the war - she wanted it, and I had been really carefully not to try to sound hypocritical in the whole play throug. So it was really jarring.

The final speech is a good idea, but in the next game could we please self choose the tone/personality since it is such and important choice?

[aries1001]

In the abandoned thaig (at the wounded coast) I got overwhelmed by monsters etc. - not your problem, I know, since this is a combat issue. However, the fireworks e.g. the cinematics (animations?) made it really impossible to see what in the world, or in the game, was going on. Also, as I've stated several times before, the lack of the tactical overview camera made it really difficult to plan and move my characters on the battlefield. It doesn't matter whem I'm only in combat with a few monsters or enemies, but when there's a like 20 or 40 at the same time - it does matter.

As for ambient storytelling is this what it is in chapter 2? when you hear people saying a joke about 'waht the difference between a dalish elf and? (I've forgotten what it was). Of course, this makes the game come alive a bit or a lot, but if this means that quests will be cut, I'd rather have me some (more) quests.

[ZabiGG]

Another thing relating to immersion... I'm sure this point has been beaten to death elsewhere, but I haven't read it here, so I guess it's worth mentioning. I'm a compulsive (read obsessive) looter.

Being "ejected" from an environment that I can't go back to due to cinematics triggering and before having had a chance to loot the place frustrates me to no end -- yes, I am THAT materialistic. Examples: After the fight at the steps of the Keep before entering the final Qunari stage, after the Arishok duel, after the Alone confrontation in the Hanged Man.

If a character needs to get out for story reasons, it would break immersion much less if they just took leave, giving us the chance to "finish up" before leaving the area.

Also, it's been mentioned but it's worth repeating -- especially since other games do it to -- Doors/passages that can't be accessed are fine by me, but the minimap should reflect that they are impassable. It creates confusion as to those that can be opened by solving puzzles and those that will remain permanently closed. Not sure it fully enters your department, but it applies to the visual aspects of the game.

+1 for a return of the tactical camera
+1 for taking the focus away from the PC when they react to things so that we can play the role ourselves, according to the personality we imagine for our own
+1 for enhancing dramatic moments instead of downplaying them


Cheers!

[tsunderes]

1) Most of the moments that come to mind for me have been said already, but anyways.
The "giggidy" smirk Hawke has after Isabellas offer during her recruitment quest, being unable to even TRY to save certain npc's from death (the elf girl in on the loose and thrask are two examples, they could still die if plot called for it, but at l least give me the option to not just stand there), the goofy camera zoom on Hawke's shocked face when they find their mother, hawke just standing there in legacy while Anders is convulsing, and similarly how impersonal his death is. Also when you went to have a chat with a companion and the whole scene would re-arrange where people were, and other companions would suddenly appear in the scene.
I would have liked to see the city CHANGE over the years, it felt so static...the same vendors and NPCs in the same spots or walking the same route for 7 years. I saw no cause and effect of the events that took place, especially after the qunari disaster, there should have been more obvious damage that remained or NPCs rebuilding still. On that vein just more npc action around town. hey could actually flee when there is a fight or guars could join in, Kirkwall always felt rather lifeless to me in comparison to places like Redcliff or Denerim, as well as far too clean for a large overcrowded city. I miss the grit.

2. I LOVED how in DAO characters with quests would call out to you when you walked past (the dwarf girl who wished to go to the circle, or the guards in denerim when they wanted to thank you and give you another task or coin)
I also really enjoyed Hawke being a more active participant in party banter in legacy, whether it was chiming in or having their own full conversation. It was nice and something I had been wishing for.
The killing blows matching with the characters fighting style in legacy was also a really nice touch.

3. Again, the city changing with events over the years. it would have been even better if there were actions you could take that would effect how certain areas of the city developed, example: you could help the alienage and see the economy and state of the place improve, or not help and see it worsen.
Also again more NPCs going about their business in the city but in meaningful ways rather than just idling around or walking a set path every time you entered the area and saying the same thing ("don't like darktown? die and make room" comes to mind) doing jobs, kids playing tag, stray dogs or cats, poultry pecking at grain that you could disrupt, people sparring, etc.

It means a lot that you made a thread like this, and even more that you're reading and listening. Thank you for letting us voice our opinions to you!