405 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

 Let's assume that you're a cinematic designer like John, and the main story is pretty much set. You know where you're going, and you know where you're coming from, and it's your job to fill in the blanks in the middle. The goal isn't to rewrite the story (you don't have the power to do that). The goal is to make the story plausible through cinematic elements. How do you make that happen?

It is the responsibility of every developer to say to the development team if something does not make sense so that changes can be made either in the cinematics, dialogue or any other branch.
 
For me most of the quests seem to have been done by separate teams and then put together in the game without any thought if it made any sense to the overall plot.
 
I like most of the quests individually but see very little sense in regards to the overall plot.

[Sad Dragon]

I swore to myself I wouldn't post in this thread until i had played through the game again, looking for things to give feedback on, but it looks like I just posted anyway. Though I felt this was important enough to ignore that fact, so lets continue!

I have seen that some posts seem to focus more on the story aspect -- or more precisely the writing parts -- of specific quests instead of the cinematics or visual storytelling parts. Now don't get me wrong, the moment Gaider creates a thread like this then we discuss the finer points of the writing, but lets try and focus on the cinematics side of things in this thread.

Sure, sometimes the writing is the downfall and no matter how good the cinematic design is, it won't save the scene. But in those cases lets not try and look at the writing but rather how we think the cinematic could have been done differently to mitigate the plot holes, railroading or whatever the writing problem might have been.

Thats all for now, will return ones I have compiled a list of things to give feedback on!


-The Sad Dragon

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

About the Grace situation - what baffles me is why not use the hostage? Have Grace say take one step closer and the hostage dies (Have some point weapon/spells towards the hostage) - and it is more beliaveable that Hawke let Grace kills Trask then after Trask is killed Grace could order Alain to kill the hostage which he refuses (as he does now) and proceed to protect himself and the hostage in that bubble spell all npc mages uses - leaving Hawke free to fight against Grace because the hostage is now safe.

Also it baffles me how Grace and Trask gets to the warden-sibling, espacially if the find Nathaniel quest is active, meaning that the warden sibling is in the Deep Road. The order of kidnapping should in my opinion be:
1. Sibling: Gallows
2. Romance
3. Best friend.

If you haven't talked to Delilah by the time Best Served Cold has come around, then the Nathaniel quest hasn't yet happened and they haven't yet done their expedition into the Deep Roads. If you do Best Served Cold after Nathaniel's quest, then they were most likely ambushed as they came out of the Deep Roads.

If you have the Nathaniel quest actually active (meaning you talked to Delilah) and then do Best Served Cold, I like to think that upon rescuing your Warden sibling, they took one of the four entrances into the Deep Roads and tried to catch up with the expedition.



EDIT: to get us back on topic though, I like the wavy hair thing that went on for the characters. That was a nice touch for the scenes.

But I want to give my characters really long hair.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 août 2011 - 03:37 .

[hoorayforicecream]

fchopin wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

 Let's assume that you're a cinematic designer like John, and the main story is pretty much set. You know where you're going, and you know where you're coming from, and it's your job to fill in the blanks in the middle. The goal isn't to rewrite the story (you don't have the power to do that). The goal is to make the story plausible through cinematic elements. How do you make that happen?

It is the responsibility of every developer to say to the development team if something does not make sense so that changes can be made either in the cinematics, dialogue or any other branch.
 
For me most of the quests seem to have been done by separate teams and then put together in the game without any thought if it made any sense to the overall plot.
 
I like most of the quests individually but see very little sense in regards to the overall plot.

It happens. A lot of the time, things change during development that were not expected, and one doesn't have the luxury of going back to revise them, no matter what it was. Other times, you want to make changes, but you're overruled by people in positions of authority above you. I'll use an example from my own experience. When I was tasked with building this fight scene, all of the animations were already motion captured, and the entire fight was already choreographed. It was pretty much set in stone, and it was up to me to make it work in the constraints given (inside a narrow staircase, move the characters properly, make sure that they didn't behave weirdly, make sure the camera was showing the right parts of the action, hide the weird animation issues during transitions, add in controller rumble, particle effects, emphasize hits, etc.) and I had to do it via a lot of camera cuts and movement in order to see things that looked ok, and to make sure the player *didn't* see things that weren't. That weird red flash near the beginning of the sequence, for example, was to cover up a weird camera transition that was an engine limitation. I hated the fact I had to put it in there, but the technology wouldn't let me get around it because there was a 1-2 frame transition that I couldn't avoid.

It would have been nice if I had been able to be there to help direct the motion capture, the voice over, and the level design for that area. But I wasn't, because that's not how it works out. I had to work with what I was given. Coherency sometimes suffers because of how many people are on a team and how compartmentalized things get. But that's just another hardship one has to traverse. You can't always affect other people, especially those who make decisions in a position of authority (believe me, I've tried. In the game I linked I went to bat repeatedly for certain features, or for the leeway to do what I wanted with certain features, but I was overruled) who are not as close to the actual implementation as you are. That's just how it is. You have to be able to work within constraints given, or else you find yourself not working for very long.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 16 août 2011 - 04:31 .

[Zeevico]

[q]Moments where you noticed a lack of/opportunities for ambient storytelling. What's ambient storytelling? Glad you ask! It's those times where stuff happens around you while you're walking around, and it helps tell the story. Clear as mud. [/q]
Now this is key. There basically wasn't any in DA2, and it's partly a function of (it's true) map recycling. No map had an identity. It was a generic cave--not the cave where you found such-and-such demon (for instance). Which meant that nothing could have a special touch to say "this is the only place (at least for a while) you'll find this."
Some attempt was made at this in the broken mansions with flying objects. Commendable effort, even if it was all a bit "horror movie cliche."
I think it's a vital part of making the game world alive and you need to concentrate on it. With the engine you have (assuming you keep it), there's only so much you can do with cinematics strictly speaking ganyway.
[q]
But please, don't limit yourself to these particular points. Anything and everything cinematics related would be useful to hear, as we want to push ourselves on future projects, and one way of doing that is to find out from you guys what worked, what didn't and what you think we could add to the process in the future.
[/q]

Bioware has put a lot of emphasis on cinematics, but lip-syncing, face models and so on remain visually as they were some years ago. On the other hand, we have games like LA Noire.
If Bioware does choose to make cinematics its focus, why not try the LA Noire approach for graphics, visuals and cut scenes generally? Movie-like visuals suit a a game whose cut scenes are made to imitate an interactive film.
The obvious retort is: money. Even so, for a part of a game you vaunt as key, it really hasn't progressed much. I mean, there's only so many ways you can be creative with a camera. When is Bioware actually going to advance the visual technology so that this "halfway point" where the characters aren't quite lifelike enough is finally overcome, as it has (mostly) in LA Noire?

[Neminea]

DahliaLynn wrote...

Aveline killing her husband: Again visually very well made with great camera choices cuts and angles, but the music bland and not moving in the least, even though it seemed to suggest it was.

I got to this before I needed to post. Personally I found that scene visually horrific, for the simple reason that Wesley is rather obviously wearing plate and she stabs through it with that dagger as if it's made of butter. Little things like that really break my immersion, and it is doubly annoying for me because it happens 10 minutes into the game.

Edit: mentioning plate, the templar hunters who did rogue backflips in their plate armour (dresses) made me giggle everytime.

Modifié par Neminea, 16 août 2011 - 05:20 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Neminea wrote...

I got to this before I needed to post. Personally I found that scene visually horrific, for the simple reason that Wesley is rather obviously wearing plate and she stabs through it with that dagger as if it's made of butter. Little things like that really break my immersion, and it is doubly annoying for me because it happens 10 minutes into the game.

Edit: mentioning plate, the templar hunters who did rogue backflips in their plate armour (dresses) made me giggle everytime.

I never saw that particular issue, myself. Plate doesn't mean solid steel all the way around, there are still spaces under or between the plates one could stick a knife. Usually that doesn't work because the wearer is actively defending him or herself, but when you're just sitting there and willing, it's different.

Not really excusing the backflips though. Maybe they had some sort of runes slotted to make themselves more agile?

[Neminea]

I will have to replay again to see it but i think the post stabbing scene shows the dagger stuck in what seems to be solid plate, but that could just be because that scene always breaks my immersion a bit and my imagination could have edited that in

[ipgd]

Neminea wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Aveline killing her husband: Again visually very well made with great camera choices cuts and angles, but the music bland and not moving in the least, even though it seemed to suggest it was.

I got to this before I needed to post. Personally I found that scene visually horrific, for the simple reason that Wesley is rather obviously wearing plate and she stabs through it with that dagger as if it's made of butter. Little things like that really break my immersion, and it is doubly annoying for me because it happens 10 minutes into the game.

http://en.wikipedia....icorde_(weapon)

Modifié par ipgd, 16 août 2011 - 05:37 .

[nitefyre410]

ipgd wrote...

Neminea wrote...

DahliaLynn wrote...

Aveline killing her husband: Again visually very well made with great camera choices cuts and angles, but the music bland and not moving in the least, even though it seemed to suggest it was.

I got to this before I needed to post. Personally I found that scene visually horrific, for the simple reason that Wesley is rather obviously wearing plate and she stabs through it with that dagger as if it's made of butter. Little things like that really break my immersion, and it is doubly annoying for me because it happens 10 minutes into the game.

http://en.wikipedia....icorde_(weapon)

 

as the article should point out there are daggers that are made for that and  given Aveline training as a soilder she should rather verse in where  to a stab a man wearing plate and hit vitials.

[Neminea]

As I said the breastplate looked pretty solid (the point where she stabbed him) to me. She didnt seem to stab him at the neck or through the armpit, she stabbed him through the heart area, which would be well protected by solid steal as is seen http://en.wikipedia....iki/Breastplate <- there.
Though I must admit the camera angle makes it hard to see.
On another note: no blood after being stabbed, the same thing happens when Zevran throws a dagger in one of the crows' eye, no blood.

[Sad Dragon]

Another quick post!

The mail chest plate doesn't really have anywhere a Misericorde could go unless it went straight thought the plate -- as first glance. If you look closely however you will see that the plate actually isn't covering the upper chest/shoulder area which is instead just leather straps. This would make an easy place to penetrate with any dagger rather.

Posting a youtube clip of the scene in question:

-TSD

[Neminea]

I think what it comes down to is that the scene could have been better if it had been clearer that she wasn't stabbing through solid breastplate at all. Close observation and camera angles can explain how she did it, but it doesn't take away from the feeling I had when I first saw it (did she just stab him through plate, really?).

[hoorayforicecream]

Neminea wrote...

I think what it comes down to is that the scene could have been better if it had been clearer that she wasn't stabbing through solid breastplate at all. Close observation and camera angles can explain how she did it, but it doesn't take away from the feeling I had when I first saw it (did she just stab him through plate, really?).

I think the main issue was that the designer wanted the scene to feel more tragic, her to seem more reluctant, and for him to be able to vocally react to the killing. Neither of these would be as possible if she cut his throat (well, I guess he could gurgle, but that's much more gruesome than a grunt of pain). So they went with this.

[TEWR]

When I first saw that scene during the demo I thought that the image of the sword was a hole made to look like a sword, and the dagger fit right through there.

Though I highly doubt it actually is.

[Neminea]

*spoiler alert for people that haven't but are still planning to watch Spartacus, Blood and sand*

The spartacus/varro deathscene thing could have worked. (Down from the neck/shoulder)
In any case just somethign that broke the immersion for me for a bit, easy to critique it in hignsight.

[Birdhive]

I did read the whole thread, and there were a lot of really good suggestions.

I agree with many that the battles in town need NPC reactions, but that also it would be helpful to actually see the Guard Pretenders or the Coterie or whomever act menacing to someone other than Hawke. Maybe see them shaking down the vendors. See more "Andraste's Ashes" type scams. Maybe see Gamlen get hassled by them in Lowtown. Make it uncomfortably obvious that the guard stinks during the first act, then less so in the 2nd, and even less in the 3rd.

I do like that the pickpocket keeps hanging out in the Hightown market, but how many years can he scam the guards there with his "waiting on a shipment" story? They've got to arrest him or investigate him at some point! Similarly, that jerk in the keep who has been waiting all day--ambient stuff like that is great, but only if it eventually ceases or is replaced by some contextually responsive other thing.

My personal pet peeve concerns the size of the buildings. All the exterior shots show these enormous governmental structures, yet the interior is hardly equivalent in size. I understand that it costs money to make spaces we can investigate, but with the Legacy viewpoints, couldn't the buildings be designed to provide us views of areas that we cannot enter? Like a courtyard behind a decorative grate associated with some part of the building behind one of the locked doors--we could see some of the area, maybe see some of the upper floors, just anything to prevent the reverse-Tardis effect. The worst are the stinking Gallows and the Chantry. Gah! Similarly, it seems like Hightown only has four houses in it besides Hawke's. A nice, inaccessible vista could help that--though it might be as frustrating, it would at least make sense.

The subtle environmental change between acts is nice, but too subtle--I often wonder if people have even noticed the change in banners between acts given comments on the forum which complain about Kirkwall being unchanging. I mean, technically they're incorrect, but functionally they are. The banners change, the alienage is slightly prettier, but not in a meaningful way. The Chantry ends up owning the Qunari compound and official banners are everywhere, but so what. Why can't someone else be using that compound? The environmental changes need to be moar! The change of light from act to act is also nice, but Act III confuses me--I can't tell if it's meant to be dawn or dusk, lighting-wise. Dusk makes the most sense, story wise, but the light seems dewy rather than dusty. Perhaps some more contextual/ambient clues? Some NPC chat revealing time of day?

The Hanged Man feels like the most lively spot in town, and the music really assists that. The way the guards react to Aveline in town is great; shouldn't the off-duty ones react to her presence in the Hanged Man as well? And what bar does the Seneschal hang out in? Shouldn't there be another one somewhere, maybe one that wouldn't let Hawke in because: Mage or Mage Associates? As someone some pages back suggested, more reactions to Hawke would be good as well. Party banters extended to non-companions, basically.

Another pet peeve is that a lot of the non-Hawke women have a bizarre, upright-ape-ish walk. I think it's worst when they're wearing robes, one can at least imagine that Aveline's armour is cumbersome, but the chantry robes should be less stiff. I do like when Aveline is wearing her off-duty clothes during the cinematic with Sebastian when they are talking about Hawke, though. Not related, but I wanted to point it out.

More touching at appropriate moments, yes, especially for love interests. I do miss being able to talk to companions outside of their home base--I loved that about Origins. I thought it was a measure of his love that Alistair wanted to have an emotional moment surrounded by poisonous gas--I mean, he and the warden could have died at any moment, perhaps he was so moved by their mortality that he couldn't keep his peace. I mean, so what if it was contextually weird, I could make up a reason; it was at least seamless, transition-wise. Plus, the poisonous gas was pretty, and made a nice screenshot.

Maybe there could be a mix of cinematic and static within one conversation--like, Origins style at the outset, cut to Hawke, then cut to companion, cinematic-style, with some remainder of walking motion to allow for the fact that the convo might have originated in a different portion of the environment (though not too far away, of course). You could have conversational regions, rather than a home base--since areas look so similar anyway, one cinematic convo in Hightown, for example, could look much like another. So set a convo to only occur in Hightown, but all over Hightown, not just Fenris' mansion (as an example, and which really should have been cleaned up, or perhaps more rotten); the companion gift convos might be good this way--imagine giving Anders the Tevinter Chantry amulet out in the open! It would make his reaction that much more intense.

I want more companion interaction in general, but more party banters which include Hawke could assist that end. Oh, and more scenes of Hawke getting to hang out with companions, rather than just order them about while on missions. Hawke is often so left out of the convivial times. OH! And way more action (of all kinds, chatting, banal, smexy) with the LI at home. I concur with the poster a while back that it would be nice to have the party enter Hawke's house, or at least make it an option to enter the house alone or with party members.

If people are going to push for animals scattered about, might I propose turtles: they'll move, but slowly. By the end of the game, they might have even crossed the market from one side to the other!

I'm sure this is already much too long, so I'll stop now.

[Nimrodell]

Just played again DA2 'cause of this topic. Make sure that main hero's face (not saying Hawke, 'cause of Mike Laidlaw's statement about each sequel having its own hero) has proper reaction according to the situation or emotional/mental state. When female Hawke talks to Varric at the beginning of the third act, after Anders'/Varric's bickering about 'marsh' part in toponyms, she laughs and that's a healthy, good-hearted laugh, and yet her face stays cold - without any expression. Same goes for parts when female Hawke yells 'It's a trap!' - both in Alone quest and in Gamlen's greatest treasure. Same goes for NPCs and their reaction, tho this example also has major flaw in voice-acting itself - Merril's reaction after Paul's running into varrteral - Hold on, Paul! We're coming! - both facial expression and voice acting are just sloppy and emotionless - thus taking away the momentum from the very situation. And I deem it was just sloppy work since you guys managed to make that perfect Anders' kiss and Fenris's kiss and emotions shown actually on their faces.
I have few more examples for this, but I think that my point is clear on this issue - sometimes you do marvelous job on actually depicting love, desperation, joy or haste, but sometimes it just looks like rushed work. Problem is - u did wonderful job and spoiled us by it, now u have to be careful always. Keep up the good work. Now I'm going back to ME3 forums to hate you guys for just showing the damned combat... I'm waiting for femShep trailer and some truly heroic story bit there .

[Foolsfolly]

Neminea wrote...

*spoiler alert for people that haven't but are still planning to watch Spartacus, Blood and sand*

The spartacus/varro deathscene thing could have worked. (Down from the neck/shoulder)
In any case just somethign that broke the immersion for me for a bit, easy to critique it in hignsight.

That was really sad too. Spartacus is a great show, by the way. You'd likely think it's nothing more than a soft core 300 inspired porn with crap effects. But if you hang in there you'll find a really enjoyable show about politics, betrayal, death, and vengence.

Anyway, that neck stab would have worked great in that scene.

[Tainan7509]

One thing that comes to my mind would be when Hawke first meet Varric in the hightown. During the conversation, Hawke's eye contact was in wrong direction when he/she is questioning about why Varric is looking for them. Whenever Hawke ask a question, his face moves up with eye brow up a bit but the entire head is also moving up, and this makes the eye contact seem to be off as if Varric is a tall guy.

Secondly, Not everyone raise his or her eye brow when he is angry and i don't even think people would do that facial expression. It is just weird to see Hawke's eye brow rise up whenever the he/she is angry.

Also, i think DA2 lack of weather setting like raining, snowing, etc. Bioware can put those type of weather setting and apply with characters' emotion when they step into these areas. This will make the players feel more close to the situation in each area with different companion in their playthrough.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 17 août 2011 - 11:05 .

[dirk5027]

 In my opinion, if mages didn't use staffs, all of DA2 would have made 
perfect sense
When Fenris states "I saw you casting spells in there" Well DUH !!What do you think this big stick is??


And with that said I am a big fan of DA2, have completely enjoyed it.

I do have to say the ommision of the finishing moves was a huge step 
back, the immersion and excitement when the warden flies through the 
air, stabbing the ogre in the head with the sword was so dynamic and 
rewarding and not a cut scene but in game
Doing a complete 360 chopping off the head of the dark spawn, these are cinematic moments, that really increases excitement

I also feel the time jumps hurt you guys a lot, Have a little sex with 
Fenris, and you don't talk about it for 3 years?? Sorry buddy i'm hot 
hunky and screwed half of kirkwall, you snooze you lose


On the first play through the companions outfits (costumes as it were) 
are fine, but on other playthroughs it does get very old, to never 
change their appearance.

Now let me use the term theatrics, but from a theatrical standpoint, 
i'd like to see different sets for each companion based on user choices...per example which could be dlc for that matter I prefer light, lithe armor on the lines of spartacus, hate that bulky 
huge stuff, give us options

Just a note BRAVO to the armor designer, especially champion armor, 
incredible job, i don't care for bulky armor, but boy i do appreciate a 
job well done.

Just a mention of Legacy, it was ok for me, BUT i'm hoping dlc can be 
integrated into the main game, i hate that you have to click a statuewe could have fought carta, looted them, found a note or map, and when you are ready to go, go to your journal

Also when you get back however, it has never been mentioned again

Lastly i have read here mentions of the paragon/renegade system YES 
YES..Boy for some reason I feel it would have fit DA2 perfectly
Petrice, Grace and many others should be thankful i had no renegade 
option

With all of the whining and moaning over this game, anybody actually say thanks.well you get one from me..THANKS...

Boy wrote this in notepad and pasted here, screwed it all up  LOL

Modifié par dirk5027, 17 août 2011 - 02:01 .

[Neminea]

I started a new playthrough to see if I could find some pointers. I am halfway through act 1, and this is what I got so far.

Eye contact.
It seems to be slightly off in a lot of conversations, usually when you are looking directly at someone other then your Hawke. Sebastian got me a bit creeped out by his, but his might just be more noticable because of his very light eyes.

More party chat
I would love to see more Origin style chat option with your party members, sometimes it feels like you hardly get to know them, and what you do know is mostly through party banter. In origin you got new chat options based on your standing with the party member, but other then the questioning believes bit I don't really see that in this game

The eyebrow thing
I agree with the raised eyebrow thing. This is my first female hawke and it just looks very silly on her half the time. I didn't notice it so much on the male hawke.

[Foolsfolly]

Just a mention of Legacy, it was ok for me, BUT i'm hoping dlc can be
integrated into the main game, i hate that you have to click a statuewe could have fought carta, looted them, found a note or map, and when you are ready to go, go to your journal

It can't. Since many people have beaten the game and were told, "Thanks for beating the game! Wait for DLC to continue!"

And then when DLC finally arrives they have to leave the mansion, which they can't do, to access the DLC? That's not fair and it's misleading about the finale. Of course, I always thought that meant it would be expansions to the story taking place after the Meredith stoning. But maybe the next DLC.

[NinaDA]

The one time I really felt bothered by a cinematic preset decision is after Hawke's mother's death, and Gamlen says he will be the one to tell Bethany the news. Regardless of which Hawke personality you're playing, Bethany and Hawke are close and Hawke is protective of her. It makes absolutely no sense for Hawke to allow Gamlen to tell Bethany - particularly since Hawke saw all the events unfold and Gamlen didn't necessarily know what really happened, as ironically enough, you can choose to spare him the sordid details.