60 réponses à ce sujet

[whykikyouwhy]

Darius Vir wrote...

I remember reading that not only did the Warden who killed Dumat die, but EVERY other Grey Warden present died at that battle, too.   Which doesn't really necessitate anything, but it's notable. 

I'm trying to find the exact reference.

I found this:

"Dumat was slain by the Grey Wardens in 992 TE upon the Silent Fields. None of the original Anderfels soldiers survived the battle."

Which, across several wiki pages with absolutely no reference to survivors/victims in the Battle of the Silent Plains, is the closest mention. So the original group who formed the Wardens all died, but another blurb on the same page states:

"The followers of the original Anderfel knights eventually inherited their customs and duty, officially founding the order of the Grey Wardens to be recognised by all of Thedas."

Since there were some battles leading up to the fight with Dumat, it's possible that some followers were made into Wardens - so not part of the original group, but still Wardens nonetheless, and therefore may have survived?
A bit sketchy, that.

[Darius Vir]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I found this:

"Dumat was slain by the Grey Wardens in 992 TE upon the Silent Fields. None of the original Anderfels soldiers survived the battle."

Which, across several wiki pages with absolutely no reference to survivors/victims in the Battle of the Silent Plains, is the closest mention. So the original group who formed the Wardens all died, but another blurb on the same page states:

"The followers of the original Anderfel knights eventually inherited their customs and duty, officially founding the order of the Grey Wardens to be recognised by all of Thedas."

Since there were some battles leading up to the fight with Dumat, it's possible that some followers were made into Wardens - so not part of the original group, but still Wardens nonetheless, and therefore may have survived?
A bit sketchy, that.

Yep, that's it.  

The thing is, it can't be that the Wardens present at the Battle of Silent Plains were part of the THE original founding group of Grey Wardens.  Again, assuming these dates are even close to accurate, the Grey Wardens were founded in 890 TE, and Silent Plains was in 992 TE.   A century later. 

[whykikyouwhy]

I completely skimmed over the dates.

So then, theoretically, there was one group of original Anderfel knights who formed the Order. They did their thing, aged, and subsequent groups took their place, but always remaining made up of Anderfels. So there was a group of Anderfel Wardens who fought Dumat and did not survive, and any non-Anderfel Wardens, or Wardens-to-be, lived to tell the tale?

Either that, or the original Wardens had a crazy long lifespan.

[Darius Vir]

^ Yeah, it's such a murky period.  Personally I find the First Blight time period extremely interesting, maybe because we know so little about it.  And the things going on were kind of, sort of.... important for the rest of history. 

Actually, about warden lifespans....give what we now know about the Taint, doesn't it make the Grey Warden who succumbs to it essentially immortal, at least from old age?

Yes, they have the ritual of The Calling, so they'll almost invariably head to Orzammar to party before getting hacked by the darkspawn.  But if they don't, they WILL transform into a darkspawn-esque creature.  And we've found out the Taint is a sustaining power that prevents darkspawn from aging/dying from age, among other things. 

Modifié par Darius Vir, 05 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[dragonflight288]

Don't forget Avernus. He had the taint for centuries, but through blood magic he was able to prolong his life and keep the taint from affecting him too much.

[whykikyouwhy]

Hmm. They could conceivably be immortal, or seemingly so.

Maybe the effect of the taint, and how long it takes to ultimately corrupt a Warden, is contingent upon the darkspawn blood used for the Joining ritual. If it's just standard darkspawn blood (your lowly genlock, maybe), it's the usual 30-years from the Joining until the Calling comes. If it's blood from a more powerful, or older, darkspawn, maybe it's 60 years before the taint takes over.

[TEWR]

Larius just seemed to be a very recent ghoul, since Janeka and her Wardens recognized him. Ghouls usually die within months, but since he's now Larius + Corypheus, he doesn't have to worry about dying now does he?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Don't forget Avernus. He had the taint for centuries, but through blood magic he was able to prolong his life and keep the taint from affecting him too much.

sadly the taint is beginning to claim him (which I admit I'm sad for because I was hoping he would figure out a way to live forever or become free of the Calling like whatshername. I liked him). In both DAO he mentions that he's drawn to the Black City because he knows there is a connection between it and the taint in the Wardens, and in DA2 he says the taint is beginning to claim him.

[Darius Vir]

Filament wrote...

I don't know about transforming into a darkspawn directly, except when the Architect was involved. Otherwise as far as we know they simply turn into ghouls. I was under the impression ghouls eventually died though, which was why Avernus had to use blood magic to slow its progression and extend his life. Larius seemed to be immortal though. Maybe he's special in some way.

All good points.  I have thought of Avernus, which gave me pause.  Because as mentioned, the reason given for why he's lived so long is blood magic, which is supposed to have held off the Taint.  I guess it's possible he wasn't aware of the Taint's sustaining power, but given how much else he'd figured out about it, I'd find that hard to believe.  

Also, Larius.  He was actually what made me consider this.  He made those weird comments about how he had undergone his Calling, and had already "died" in a sense.  So while he certainly appeared to be some kind of warped being, he still had a sense of awareness and even his old memories.  

In conjunction with me just recently reading that the Taint makes the darkspawn immortal (from old age), I just started to consider this point about the Wardens.   Another question is what technically it is that they turn into?  I always thought it was a ghoul, as well, but Legacy and The Calling (the book) made me wonder about that, too.  

Modifié par Darius Vir, 05 août 2011 - 03:15 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Larius just seemed to be a very recent ghoul. Ghouls usually die within months, but since he's now Larius + Corypheus, he doesn't have to worry about dying now does he?

Larius struck me as having dealt with the taint for a considerable amount of time. Assuming he was recently made a Warden at the time Corypheus was imprisoned, that gives him 30 years hanging around the prison. At which time, in normal circumstances, he would have been due for his Calling. Instead, he is shambling around the prison, listening to Corypheus whisper sweet-nothings.

So maybe he had already been a Warden for 10+ years pre-imprisonment (I'm sure there's a codex entry somewhere), making him long overdue for his walk to the Deep Roads. Was he a ghoul? He was certainly coherent, though a bit addled, but he still retained a human veneer.

The way he kept going on and on about it being "so long" and having died "long ago" that he had been there and what not just made me think of him as quite old in the soul. Like he had been in his half life state for a century or something.

Maybe he was already possessed by something else.

[WhiteKnyght]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Larius just seemed to be a very recent ghoul. Ghouls usually die within months, but since he's now Larius + Corypheus, he doesn't have to worry about dying now does he?

Larius struck me as having dealt with the taint for a considerable amount of time. Assuming he was recently made a Warden at the time Corypheus was imprisoned, that gives him 30 years hanging around the prison. At which time, in normal circumstances, he would have been due for his Calling. Instead, he is shambling around the prison, listening to Corypheus whisper sweet-nothings.

So maybe he had already been a Warden for 10+ years pre-imprisonment (I'm sure there's a codex entry somewhere), making him long overdue for his walk to the Deep Roads. Was he a ghoul? He was certainly coherent, though a bit addled, but he still retained a human veneer.

The way he kept going on and on about it being "so long" and having died "long ago" that he had been there and what not just made me think of him as quite old in the soul. Like he had been in his half life state for a century or something.

Maybe he was already possessed by something else.

Larius doesn't look very ghoulified yet. I imagine a DA2 Ghoul would have a look more similar to how they are described in The Calling. Meaning Bald,  black blotchy skin everywhere, sharpened teeth, and the lips receeded into a toothy grin.

[whykikyouwhy]

Filament wrote...

The wiki does say he's a recent Warden... I took Janeka recognizing him to be because he's been haunting the place forever, though. He does say he 'died' but the taint sustains him now. Could it sustain him forever like it does darkspawn?

Hmm....yes. Which makes me lean more toward the fact that someone other than Larius is rattling around in Larius. Or he's just melodramatic.

The Grey Nayr wrote...
Larius doesn't look very ghoulified yet. I imagine a DA2 Ghoul would have a look more similar to how they are described in The Calling. Meaning Bald,  black blotchy skin everywhere, sharpened teeth, and the lips receeded into a toothy grin.

Or...he knows a good foundation to use. Some concealant.   But I do think he would be suffering more mentally if fully a ghoul.

[Morroian]

Filament wrote...

I don't know about transforming into a darkspawn directly, except when the Architect was involved. Otherwise as far as we know they simply turn into ghouls. I was under the impression ghouls eventually died though, which was why Avernus had to use blood magic to slow its progression and extend his life. Larius seemed to be immortal though. Maybe he's special in some way.

I thought that from what was stated in The Calling that wardens don't necessarily die from becoming ghouls, When wardens die on their calling its from fighting the darkspawn.

[TEWR]

here is his final missive, though it doesn't give a date.


My dearest brothers and sisters,

I am leaving to take that last long walk into the deep. I have been a Grey Warden for a full thirty years, and the Joining can only hold back the taint for so long.

These last months, the song of the Archdemons has become not a whisper to me, but a terrible roaring that I cannot endure. My conscience compels me to leave before the corruption becomes too much, before the madness takes over.

I has been my honor serving with every single one of you. I go to the Deep Roads to meet my death in combat against our eternal foe. When my brothers in Orzammar salute my departure, I will walk proudly in my duty, and joyful in the knowledge that my burden will soon be lifted.

Remember me, and do not fear your own Calling, when the time comes.

---Larius, Commander of the Grey

[Sepewrath]

Filament wrote...

The wiki does say he's a recent Warden... I took Janeka recognizing him to be because he's been haunting the place forever, though. He does say he 'died' but the taint sustains him now. Could it sustain him forever like it does darkspawn?

Well when he said he died and then followed it up by saying the taint sustained him, I think he meant that he should have died from like starvation. I cant imagine what he would eat down there, unless he was eating the Darkspawn. I think that would only make more sense for him when he says the taint sustains him.

[MichaelFinnegan]

Darius Vir wrote...

In conjunction with me just recently reading that the Taint makes the darkspawn immortal (from old age), I just started to consider this point about the Wardens.   Another question is what technically it is that they turn into?  I always thought it was a ghoul, as well, but Legacy and The Calling (the book) made me wonder about that, too.

Hmm. That now makes me wonder. Where is it said that the darkspawn are actually immortal? The taint is supposed to function as nourishment, sure, but I think it'd be a leap to suggest that it somehow makes them immortal. Also, countering this is the notion that there are "immature" darkspawn that somehow resemble The Children from Awakening, giving direct evidence that darkspawn do age.

Is there a reference to this immortality somewhere? I'm unable to find it.

[TEWR]

I believe David Gaider said the taint makes Darkspawn immortal in terms of natural lifespan (meaning age-wise they can live forever, but can be killed in battle). We also meet an ancient hurlock in the Deep Roads.


Also Corypheus has been alive for 2000 years.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 août 2011 - 03:50 .

[dragonflight288]

Whether or not Corypheus lived that long because of the taint or the magic sealing him within and thus preserved him is unknown.

[MichaelFinnegan]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I believe David Gaider said the taint makes Darkspawn immortal in terms of natural lifespan (meaning age-wise they can live forever, but can be killed in battle). We also meet an ancient hurlock in the Deep Roads.

I found this:
http://social.biowar...64677/1#3164740
and this:
http://social.biowar...64677/2#3164917

Neither of which suggests immortality. I'm sure it could be something else. I'm unable to find it though. And I must say I'm now becoming increasingly doubful regarding that claim.

Also Corypheus has been alive for 2000 years.

By this definition of darkspawn (link below), Corypheus isn't darkspawn. He is just tainted with the corruption - maybe the very first to do so:
http://social.biowar...64677/2#3164977

And besides if he has the ability to transfer his "essence" or "soul" to others, that would explain why he could be immortal - although not occupying one body.

[TexasToast712]

I always saw it as Larius was such a badass that he couldnt even be killed in his calling hence why he turns ghoulish.

[phaonica]

David Gaider wrote...

Darkspawn don't require food for sustenance. The corruption within them keeps them alive. They can eat... but if they do so they do it for reasons other than dietary.

source: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/3164677/1#3164740


Edit: oops, this link is in the thread already, my bad.

Modifié par phaonica, 05 août 2011 - 07:18 .

[Sajuro]

May I post a simple answer, they got the name of the old god wrong, it said it was believed to be Dumat, but it could have been one of the other old gods and Dumat could still be asleep somewhere.

[whykikyouwhy]

MichaelFinnegan wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I believe David Gaider said the taint makes Darkspawn immortal in terms of natural lifespan (meaning age-wise they can live forever, but can be killed in battle). We also meet an ancient hurlock in the Deep Roads.

I found this:
http://social.biowar...64677/1#3164740
and this:
http://social.biowar...64677/2#3164917

Neither of which suggests immortality. I'm sure it could be something else. I'm unable to find it though. And I must say I'm now becoming increasingly doubful regarding that claim.

Also Corypheus has been alive for 2000 years.

By this definition of darkspawn (link below), Corypheus isn't darkspawn. He is just tainted with the corruption - maybe the very first to do so:
http://social.biowar...64677/2#3164977

And besides if he has the ability to transfer his "essence" or "soul" to others, that would explain why he could be immortal - although not occupying one body.

Regarding immortality - I don't want to presume to speak for Darius Vir (and he is free to correct me), but I think he was saying that it was immortality after a fashion - the semblence of immortality. At least that's how I read it. Please see the bolded part below:

Darius Vir wrote...

^ Yeah, it's such a murky period. Personally I find the First Blight time period extremely interesting, maybe because we know so little about it. And the things going on were kind of, sort of.... important for the rest of history.

Actually, about warden lifespans....give what we now know about the Taint, doesn't it make the Grey Warden who succumbs to it essentially immortal, at least from old age?

Yes, they have the ritual of The Calling, so they'll almost invariably head to Orzammar to party before getting hacked by the darkspawn. But if they don't, they WILL transform into a darkspawn-esque creature. And we've found out the Taint is a sustaining power that prevents darkspawn from aging/dying from age, among other things.

So immortal in the sense of "no death by natural causes, no death by disease, no death by the normal cycle of decay of the flesh." Not true immortality, no, but longevity that has the appearance of immortality. It takes something else to kill a darkspawn - a good blade and such. But if left to fend on their own without any conflict or threat, their lifespan, as it were, might be considerable.

But again, I could be wrong, and terribly presumptuous in my interpretation.