739 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

If Hawke and Warden were to be incorporated as PC's along with the new character how about starting them at say Level 10-15 that way the level drop isnt too big to be insulting but not so small that the player is godlike at the start

That would also require that any equipment on them that is imported be nerfed. Bioware could use a tactic it did for one of the NWN expansions. The PC's equipment was stolen during an attack on him/her by assassins while sleeping in an inn. It would be a compromise. The new character would still need to get to level 10-15 if only one main plot was going to be used after the starting substory for each character.

A good in-game tutorial (along with a decent manual) is still needed if Bioware wants to attact newbies and others to try cRPGs.

[valentine3]

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

And the cure would likely be mods ( such as the level to 100 with scaling enemies).

IF they do Hawke or the Warden as an option (which I doubt) I assume that for balance they would start either the same as a new pc or, in a different scenario that accounted for their higher level.

Mods assume a toolkit or that Bioware allows access to the assets of  DA3. The only scaling of enemies you get is in hit points and mana which many on this forum decry because it does nothing to change how the enemy attacks, uses tactics or magic. It simply makes the combat longer and tedious. Unless the programmers write different attack scripts with different abilities if the game is facing either Hawke or the warden.

Having Hawke or the warden start at level one would cause an outcry which would make the disaapointment (for some) of DA2 look small.

Most gamers would not accept nerfing their character back to level one. Which means that Bioware would have to write three different stories at the start. The warden and Hawke's stories would have to account for where they have been.  Also for the warden do you allow imports from only Origins or do you include Awakenings. It does make a noticable difference. Also nothing from dlc would be considered canon.

The longest story would have to be the new protagonist since he/she would have to level up.
Now Bioware could write three separate stories from beginning to end for Hawke, warden and new protagonist for DA3. I do believe most gamers want to see the game in this decade.

The simplest route is to have a new protagonist and mention the warden and Hawke's endings in DA3 or have them appear as NPCs in some capacity.

Sorry double post

Modifié par valentine3, 14 mars 2012 - 10:04 .

[valentine3]

valentine3 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

And the cure would likely be mods ( such as the level to 100 with scaling enemies).

IF they do Hawke or the Warden as an option (which I doubt) I assume that for balance they would start either the same as a new pc or, in a different scenario that accounted for their higher level.

Mods assume a toolkit or that Bioware allows access to the assets of  DA3. The only scaling of enemies you get is in hit points and mana which many on this forum decry because it does nothing to change how the enemy attacks, uses tactics or magic. It simply makes the combat longer and tedious. Unless the programmers write different attack scripts with different abilities if the game is facing either Hawke or the warden.

Having Hawke or the warden start at level one would cause an outcry which would make the disaapointment (for some) of DA2 look small.

Most gamers would not accept nerfing their character back to level one. Which means that Bioware would have to write three different stories at the start. The warden and Hawke's stories would have to account for where they have been.  Also for the warden do you allow imports from only Origins or do you include Awakenings. It does make a noticable difference. Also nothing from dlc would be considered canon.

The longest story would have to be the new protagonist since he/she would have to level up.
Now Bioware could write three separate stories from beginning to end for Hawke, warden and new protagonist for DA3. I do believe most gamers want to see the game in this decade.

The simplest route is to have a new protagonist and mention the warden and Hawke's endings in DA3 or have them appear as NPCs in some capacity.

Sorry,I dont understand why you need 3 diffrent stories from begin to end?
The story might end the same ,no matter what character you play.and  origins had diffrent background stories for diffrent charaters.So depending on your background setting dialogue options ,question and answers changed.Why not do the same with dragon age 3.?
In that way it does'nt matter who died in who's game.Say for example Alistair died in your game,so the pc bump into some ...Tegan who misses alistair or, if alive, had drinks with him last night.Like I said dialogue can change according to back ground setting.
 
And the new protagonist might already be an acomplished figter,like a seeker.So a level starting at 10-15 won't be a problem

[Realmzmaster]

valentine3 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

And the cure would likely be mods ( such as the level to 100 with scaling enemies).

IF they do Hawke or the Warden as an option (which I doubt) I assume that for balance they would start either the same as a new pc or, in a different scenario that accounted for their higher level.

Mods assume a toolkit or that Bioware allows access to the assets of  DA3. The only scaling of enemies you get is in hit points and mana which many on this forum decry because it does nothing to change how the enemy attacks, uses tactics or magic. It simply makes the combat longer and tedious. Unless the programmers write different attack scripts with different abilities if the game is facing either Hawke or the warden.

Having Hawke or the warden start at level one would cause an outcry which would make the disaapointment (for some) of DA2 look small.

Most gamers would not accept nerfing their character back to level one. Which means that Bioware would have to write three different stories at the start. The warden and Hawke's stories would have to account for where they have been.  Also for the warden do you allow imports from only Origins or do you include Awakenings. It does make a noticable difference. Also nothing from dlc would be considered canon.

The longest story would have to be the new protagonist since he/she would have to level up.
Now Bioware could write three separate stories from beginning to end for Hawke, warden and new protagonist for DA3. I do believe most gamers want to see the game in this decade.

The simplest route is to have a new protagonist and mention the warden and Hawke's endings in DA3 or have them appear as NPCs in some capacity.

Sorry,I dont understand why you need 3 diffrent stories from begin to end?
The story might end the same ,no matter what character you play.and  origins had diffrent background stories for diffrent charaters.So depending on your background setting dialogue options ,question and answers changed.Why not do the same with dragon age 3.?
In that way it does'nt matter who died in who's game.Say for example Alistair died in your game,so the pc bump into some ...Tegan who misses alistair or, if alive, had drinks with him last night.Like I said dialogue can change according to back ground setting.
 
And the new protagonist might already be an acomplished figter,like a seeker.

If you allow the import of a Hawke from DA2 and a Warden from DAO (or Awakenings) you have a character who is already at level 25 and above. If you also want new players who have not played DAO or DA2 to pick up DA3 then that new protagonist would have to start at level 25 to be equal to Hawke or the warden.  The only other way is to nerf the warden or Hawke.

Origins worked in DAO because all the wardens started at level one.
I did not say you had to have three different stories from beginning to end. It is one of the possibilities. You would need three different starting points.
One of the points of a cRPG is leveling up the character and molding it to fit your playstyle starting with a 25th level new protagonist defeats that purpose.  It is OK with party members who you pick up, but not the avatar of the gamer. 
A level 25 character would already have to be preset ( which some of the older cRPGS provided pre-set characters and parties) or allow the gamer to allocate points for skills and attributes and then figure out how to master the abilities. Your idea of an accomplished fighter (a seeker) fits here. This would hardly be the way to bring new players into DA3 especially without an excellent tutorial or manual even if using casual mode.  Bioware has stated it wants to make DA3 accessible to newcomers.

Importing into an expansion and dlc  is different because the gamer has to own the base game and probably has played (why buy the expansion or dlc otherwise) it so they have a warden or Hawke to import. The dlc or expansion is written to take into account the higher level character. This is why most imports are for expansions or dlcs not main games.

The Mass Effect series is different because it was known that the series would be a trilogy and that Shepard would be the PC. Mass Effect is about Shepard. Dragon Age's main character according to Bioware is Thedas not the warden and not Hawke no matter what everyone else thinks or wants. That point was stated upfront from Bioware. Which is one of the differences between Dragon Age and Mass Effect.

[morgan rose]

valentine3 wrote...

valentine3 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

And the cure would likely be mods ( such as the level to 100 with scaling enemies).

IF they do Hawke or the Warden as an option (which I doubt) I assume that for balance they would start either the same as a new pc or, in a different scenario that accounted for their higher level.

Mods assume a toolkit or that Bioware allows access to the assets of  DA3. The only scaling of enemies you get is in hit points and mana which many on this forum decry because it does nothing to change how the enemy attacks, uses tactics or magic. It simply makes the combat longer and tedious. Unless the programmers write different attack scripts with different abilities if the game is facing either Hawke or the warden.

Having Hawke or the warden start at level one would cause an outcry which would make the disaapointment (for some) of DA2 look small.

Most gamers would not accept nerfing their character back to level one. Which means that Bioware would have to write three different stories at the start. The warden and Hawke's stories would have to account for where they have been.  Also for the warden do you allow imports from only Origins or do you include Awakenings. It does make a noticable difference. Also nothing from dlc would be considered canon.

The longest story would have to be the new protagonist since he/she would have to level up.
Now Bioware could write three separate stories from beginning to end for Hawke, warden and new protagonist for DA3. I do believe most gamers want to see the game in this decade.

The simplest route is to have a new protagonist and mention the warden and Hawke's endings in DA3 or have them appear as NPCs in some capacity.

Sorry,I dont understand why you need 3 diffrent stories from begin to end?
The story might end the same ,no matter what character you play.and  origins had diffrent background stories for diffrent charaters.So depending on your background setting dialogue options ,question and answers changed.Why not do the same with dragon age 3.?
In that way it does'nt matter who died in who's game.Say for example Alistair died in your game,so the pc bump into some ...Tegan who misses alistair or, if alive, had drinks with him last night.Like I said dialogue can change according to back ground setting.
 
And the new protagonist might already be an acomplished figter,like a seeker.So a level starting at 10-15 won't be a problem

I just have to add(to realmzmmaster) that when you use an import you transfer information to the next game.Infact your previous save is a setting,so once transfered that setting is in the second game,so by the end of the second game you actually have origins and da2 info right? So why need seprated import for warden and hawke when all info is already on the last save?You can just choose background story from there.

And before you complain about glitches and buggs,you can't import glitches and buggs,but an import can sometimes cause one.But I would not worry about that to much,I had more glitches in dao than in da2 with an import.

[morgan rose]

When I started awakening my warden was already on a high level and when I met new companions they had high level too.Battles were'nt to easy even with a high level.

[Realmzmaster]

morgan rose wrote...

valentine3 wrote...

valentine3 wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

And the cure would likely be mods ( such as the level to 100 with scaling enemies).

IF they do Hawke or the Warden as an option (which I doubt) I assume that for balance they would start either the same as a new pc or, in a different scenario that accounted for their higher level.

Mods assume a toolkit or that Bioware allows access to the assets of  DA3. The only scaling of enemies you get is in hit points and mana which many on this forum decry because it does nothing to change how the enemy attacks, uses tactics or magic. It simply makes the combat longer and tedious. Unless the programmers write different attack scripts with different abilities if the game is facing either Hawke or the warden.

Having Hawke or the warden start at level one would cause an outcry which would make the disaapointment (for some) of DA2 look small.

Most gamers would not accept nerfing their character back to level one. Which means that Bioware would have to write three different stories at the start. The warden and Hawke's stories would have to account for where they have been.  Also for the warden do you allow imports from only Origins or do you include Awakenings. It does make a noticable difference. Also nothing from dlc would be considered canon.

The longest story would have to be the new protagonist since he/she would have to level up.
Now Bioware could write three separate stories from beginning to end for Hawke, warden and new protagonist for DA3. I do believe most gamers want to see the game in this decade.

The simplest route is to have a new protagonist and mention the warden and Hawke's endings in DA3 or have them appear as NPCs in some capacity.

Sorry,I dont understand why you need 3 diffrent stories from begin to end?
The story might end the same ,no matter what character you play.and  origins had diffrent background stories for diffrent charaters.So depending on your background setting dialogue options ,question and answers changed.Why not do the same with dragon age 3.?
In that way it does'nt matter who died in who's game.Say for example Alistair died in your game,so the pc bump into some ...Tegan who misses alistair or, if alive, had drinks with him last night.Like I said dialogue can change according to back ground setting.
 
And the new protagonist might already be an acomplished figter,like a seeker.So a level starting at 10-15 won't be a problem

I just have to add(to realmzmmaster) that when you use an import you transfer information to the next game.Infact your previous save is a setting,so once transfered that setting is in the second game,so by the end of the second game you actually have origins and da2 info right? So why need seprated import for warden and hawke when all info is already on the last save?You can just choose background story from there.

And before you complain about glitches and buggs,you can't import glitches and buggs,but an import can sometimes cause one.But I would not worry about that to much,I had more glitches in dao than in da2 with an import.

The save only saves the information from the end of Origins (or Awakenings) and DA2. It does tell you where Hawke or the warden have been (since according to the Seeker and Leliana Hawke like the warden has vanished).  This has nothing to do with backstory that can be imported because it was never in the origianl stories of the warden or Hawke. That is why three different stories or beginnings. One to expalin where the warden has been, one  for Hawke and the third for the new protagonist.

[Realmzmaster]

morgan rose wrote...

When I started awakening my warden was already on a high level and when I met new companions they had high level too.Battles were'nt to easy even with a high level.

Note you imported into an expansion like I stated in my post. The expansion is written to take into account a high level character. Note what level Anders was when you recruited him in DA2. He was nerfed. DA3 would have to be written that way to account for a high level Hawke or warden. Therefore any new character would have to begin at a high level which is great if you played DAO or DA2 or both, but not if you just picked up DA3 to try it. (Quite a few gamers on this forum played DA2 before DAO). This is why most main games start the PC at level one or require an in game tutorial to level up the character (which introduces new gamers to the system). Something Bioware did with NeverWinter Nights and needs to revisit for future games.

[morgan rose]

I get the three background stories (as valentine explained)And obviously your import or chosen background will trigger a program to start your story,I get this.I also know what bioware said about new protagonist AND that things can still change,nothing is set in stone,I do read the interviews you know.
My opinion still stays the same I think it will be good if we a be given a chance to make a decision like that,many fans feel that way and I'm not just talking about the bioware forums Choise were taken a way from us in da2 and this seems like a good way to start making your own again.you can try and use technical problems or whatever els you choose as an excuse,but at the end of the day it's still problems that can be overcome.
For the newbies an intro as in origins where Ducan explains where grey wardens come from can be used just add Hawkes mishaps and a few codexes and theyshould be able to understand what's going on,and a bit more info in their background storie.

[morgan rose]

Realmzmaster wrote...

morgan rose wrote...

When I started awakening my warden was already on a high level and when I met new companions they had high level too.Battles were'nt to easy even with a high level.

Note you imported into an expansion like I stated in my post. The expansion is written to take into account a high level character. Note what level Anders was when you recruited him in DA2. He was nerfed. DA3 would have to be written that way to account for a high level Hawke or warden. Therefore any new character would have to begin at a high level which is great if you played DAO or DA2 or both, but not if you just picked up DA3 to try it. (Quite a few gamers on this forum played DA2 before DAO). This is why most main games start the PC at level one or require an in game tutorial to level up the character (which introduces new gamers to the system). Something Bioware did with NeverWinter Nights and needs to revisit for future games.

Do you maybe know how many peolpe had a problem with Anders nerfed leve in da2,because I have'nt found a thread or forum about it. So if you could point me in the right direction please.Thank you.

[WhiteKnyght]

It's already been stated that he/she wont be.

They're pretty clear on the whole "New hero every game" thing.

[Realmzmaster]

morgan rose wrote...

I get the three background stories (as valentine explained)And obviously your import or chosen background will trigger a program to start your story,I get this.I also know what bioware said about new protagonist AND that things can still change,nothing is set in stone,I do read the interviews you know.
My opinion still stays the same I think it will be good if we a be given a chance to make a decision like that,many fans feel that way and I'm not just talking about the bioware forums Choise were taken a way from us in da2 and this seems like a good way to start making your own again.you can try and use technical problems or whatever els you choose as an excuse,but at the end of the day it's still problems that can be overcome.
For the newbies an intro as in origins where Ducan explains where grey wardens come from can be used just add Hawkes mishaps and a few codexes and theyshould be able to understand what's going on,and a bit more info in their background storie.

I am not just talking about the story. I am talking about actual game mechanics and how to play the game. You should not expect a newcomer to start with a level 25 character in DA3. Anders being nerfed was necessary in DA2 because you cannot have a level 25 Anders in the party with a level 7 Hawke. It would seriously unbalance the game.

I have no problem with choice. I am concerned with implementation. A gamer does not have to play Mass Effect 1 & 2 to play Mass Effect 3. The game is accessible to newcomers who want to play. Both DAO and DA2 are accessible to newcomers because they start with low level characters (Both games need better tutorials.).

The way some are asking that DA3 be implemented would ignore that leveling up process and learning of the game mechanics by newcomers. So basically you may please your present fanbase, but any potential audience may pass because the learning curve is to steep. There is a big difference from starting with a level one character and slowly learning how to spend attribute and skill points as you level up than being handed a level 25 character and trying to learn how to play.

For example in DAO  the longer you wait to get a party member the more skills and attributes that party member will already have assign to them by the game. You get Morrigan near the beginning and can basically mold her to be the mage you want.. The longer you wait to get Wynne the more attributes and skills the game has already assigned. Or the opposite happens in Mark of the Assassin. You get to assign  the skill points for Talis.
Now envision that process being given to a newcomer to create a level 25 character in DA3.

I have no problem with choice. Implementation is a different matter. It is not just technical problems to overcome. It involves teaching newcomers how to play the game. If all Bioware does is please the existing base where does the new audience for the DA series come from.

[morgan rose]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

It's already been stated that he/she wont be.

They're pretty clear on the whole "New hero every game" thing.

 
Probably what wil happen yes.Your hawke and warden is missing and the new protagonist have to find them,to stop all the crap happening in thesda.But then I just read on some site that bioware leaked that it might be alistair and hawke trying to end a third blight.
I just would have liked the option to choose

[morgan rose]

Realmzmaster wrote...

morgan rose wrote...

I get the three background stories (as valentine explained)And obviously your import or chosen background will trigger a program to start your story,I get this.I also know what bioware said about new protagonist AND that things can still change,nothing is set in stone,I do read the interviews you know.
My opinion still stays the same I think it will be good if we a be given a chance to make a decision like that,many fans feel that way and I'm not just talking about the bioware forums Choise were taken a way from us in da2 and this seems like a good way to start making your own again.you can try and use technical problems or whatever els you choose as an excuse,but at the end of the day it's still problems that can be overcome.
For the newbies an intro as in origins where Ducan explains where grey wardens come from can be used just add Hawkes mishaps and a few codexes and theyshould be able to understand what's going on,and a bit more info in their background storie.

I am not just talking about the story. I am talking about actual game mechanics and how to play the game. You should not expect a newcomer to start with a level 25 character in DA3. Anders being nerfed was necessary in DA2 because you cannot have a level 25 Anders in the party with a level 7 Hawke. It would seriously unbalance the game.

I have no problem with choice. I am concerned with implementation. A gamer does not have to play Mass Effect 1 & 2 to play Mass Effect 3. The game is accessible to newcomers who want to play. Both DAO and DA2 are accessible to newcomers because they start with low level characters (Both games need better tutorials.).

The way some are asking that DA3 be implemented would ignore that leveling up process and learning of the game mechanics by newcomers. So basically you may please your present fanbase, but any potential audience may pass because the learning curve is to steep. There is a big difference from starting with a level one character and slowly learning how to spend attribute and skill points as you level up than being handed a level 25 character and trying to learn how to play.

For example in DAO  the longer you wait to get a party member the more skills and attributes that party member will already have assign to them by the game. You get Morrigan near the beginning and can basically mold her to be the mage you want.. The longer you wait to get Wynne the more attributes and skills the game has already assigned. Or the opposite happens in Mark of the Assassin. You get to assign  the skill points for Talis.
Now envision that process being given to a newcomer to create a level 25 character in DA3.

I have no problem with choice. Implementation is a different matter. It is not just technical problems to overcome. It involves teaching newcomers how to play the game. If all Bioware does is please the existing base where does the new audience for the DA series come from.

I do understand what you mean.But I have'nt heard anyone complaining about starting on a lower level with imports(That why I asked if you could help or tell about a forum like that so I could catch up),And if you  import it does'nt mean your warden and hawke will start on level 23 or whatever.It's just history  being past on and seeing as its a setting it could be changed.Would player really be bother by a lower level,that much.?I dont know It would'nt really bother me,but I can't speek for everyone.
If you have to start over with a new protagonist ,might as well with the others.
But that's just an opinion.Rather that, then face a new blight with Hawke and alistair.having my choice taken away again

[Realmzmaster]

Gamers who have invested time in to getting a character to a high level tend to get upset if you nerf their character.
Bioware did this in the NWN series. In one of the expansions if you brought in a character that was at a level to high for the expansion or with high powered weaponry the character was nerfed back to a lower level and the weaponry was stolen during an attack.
This way Bioware insured that only a certain level character with weaponry provided went through the expansion. Upset quite a few gamers in the NWN forums.
The reason Bioware had to do this was because they gave the gamers a toolkit. The gamer create adventures for others to take their characters thru. Those characters were to high powered for the expansions Bioware created so Bioware nerfed the characters being imported.

For example my warden from Origins I took through all the dlc. By the time I reached Awakening the warden was already at level 30. The minute I started Awakening I got the Commander of the Grey achievement. By the time I finished Awakening the warden was at level 35 which was the cap . My warden reach the cap midway in the expansion. My warden would have gone higher if I used a mod to remove the cap. Awakening did not prove a challenge for that warden. I had to start an Orlaisan warden (20 level) to get any sense of challenge.

I will have to search the forums again for the exact threads.

[Wulfram]

DA2's ruleset could easily handle a game starting at 25, though you'd need to add some more trees, and perhaps expand the existing trees a bit too. And with the way level scaling works, you could start the newbies at level 1 without too many problems.

[alikilar]

DA3 could be about a warden 300 years in the future against another blight?

[Dasher1010]

I'm hoping it's something other than human. How about an elf, or a dwarf, a qunari or a Turian.

[forestmaiden86]

I dont really want to play my warden as much as I adore Origins... but I would like her returned from whatever twilight zone that bioware sent her to. I was happy with her ending until she disappeared.

[jbrand2002uk]

alikilar wrote...

DA3 could be about a warden 300 years in the future against another blight?

Actually it couldn't the Series is called Dragon Age because its set in the Dragon Age incase you forget thats a period of 100 years no more than that 

[Carmen_Willow]

I am reconciled to a new character with every new addition to the Dragon Age series. I look forward to meeting my new person from the Age of Dragons (I would like to know what happens with the civil war, though).

[valentine3]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gamers who have invested time in to getting a character to a high level tend to get upset if you nerf their character.
Bioware did this in the NWN series. In one of the expansions if you brought in a character that was at a level to high for the expansion or with high powered weaponry the character was nerfed back to a lower level and the weaponry was stolen during an attack.
This way Bioware insured that only a certain level character with weaponry provided went through the expansion. Upset quite a few gamers in the NWN forums.
The reason Bioware had to do this was because they gave the gamers a toolkit. The gamer create adventures for others to take their characters thru. Those characters were to high powered for the expansions Bioware created so Bioware nerfed the characters being imported.

For example my warden from Origins I took through all the dlc. By the time I reached Awakening the warden was already at level 30. The minute I started Awakening I got the Commander of the Grey achievement. By the time I finished Awakening the warden was at level 35 which was the cap . My warden reach the cap midway in the expansion. My warden would have gone higher if I used a mod to remove the cap. Awakening did not prove a challenge for that warden. I had to start an Orlaisan warden (20 level) to get any sense of challenge.

I will have to search the forums again for the exact threads.

Bioware can always do the act thing as they did in da2.
First act play as new protagonist and after the missing warden and hawke thing is resolved, choose character that you wish to continue story with.
That way new protagonist's level should be sufficient,newbies could catch up and if you dont like new protagonist you can choose previous character.

[Jonny_Sad]

I think its a testiment to Bioware that i was so connected to my Warden and the characters in Dragon Age Origins which is why i am extremely dissapointed in this announcement. After the utter boring, rushed mess that was DA2 Bioware will have to produce a a fantastic gaming experience for me to even consider buying it... I will be watching the progress of this game very closely...

Im gonna replay Dragon Age: Origins and finish my Wardens story by leaving the realm with Morrigan rather than letting her go and leaving it open.

Please don't let me down bioware....

[Dokarqt]

I, for one, am glad they decide to go with a new protagonist. So many pitfalls involved with continuing an old character, as well as developer headaches.
It can work well in some "expansion" cases; DA:A for instance as well as ME (which is more like 1 story divided into 3 "acts").