27 réponses à ce sujet

[gangly369]

So, how did Corypheus do it?

Now hold onto your arguements for one second and dont start calling for a lockdown on a pointless topic, because I believe that this is important. From what I've been reading on the forums from some people, is that there is a belief that this magister was able to pull an archdemon on us. That is to say that when he 'died', he ditched his body and went into either Larius or Janeka. This is possible because A) Corypheus is a super powerful badass magister and The warden that he takes over has the taint so he was able to easily get inside like the archdemon does.
Easy. Simple. Case closed. Move on.

Or not.

Why not? Because if memory serves me correctly (and if it isnt then please forgive me and I'll quietly shut up about this), if Corypheus pulled an Archdemon on us, then he should be dead. That is his soul should have sputtered out and gone kaboom. The reason? Because when an archdemon enters a Grey Warden, it dies due to there being another soul being already inside said Warden. The archdemon is only able to perform its switching act by going into a darkspawn.

Thus bringing me back to my original question, how did he do it? And, if he was able to do it via him being a super badass powerful magister, is Larius/Janeka presence still inside the body? Sort of like the situation between Anders and Justice? Or were they destroyed when Corypheus took over?

Discuss

[Matriach]

I believe it has something to do with the..fade? Probably connected on how he managed to call his tainted followers. He used that connection to transfer his consciousness to Larius/the warden and replaced what left on them with his own. I already forgot mostly what happened in Legacy (blame me for rushing it when I got it ;( ), but I recalled something about the fade and the calling when they mentioned how Cory communicate with his followers. If it's the fade, then it's probably the same as what happened when one got possessed by a demon.

Not to mention, it doesn't really matter if the body died in the real world when your soul got stuck in the fade. If they managed to possess someone in it then they can, in a way, return to life.

[whykikyouwhy]

My guess is that some willingness has to be involved. It's easier to explain with Larius - he refers to himself as dead. His soul is most likely frayed, vulnerable. Janeka however was probably just a willing party, or had all along been under the thrall of the magister.

In the case of a warden slaying an archdemon, there is likely to be resistence - defense mechanisms at full. Or a soul that, through the Joining, may be more inclined to repel an archdemon of its own accord.

Couple a willing or somewhat vacant vessel with powerful magics and you might have the likely formula for some partnership of sorts with the souls.

[Sepewrath]

I don't think either would be any more willing to let him hop in than an Archdemon. Janeka was bent on controlling him, not being friends and Larius wanted it dead, so it would leave him alone. Basically I agree with you TC, it wouldn't make sense for him to pull an Archdemon on a Warden, if he's not a Darkspawn and he just did what Flemeth was going to do to Morrigan, fine. But a darkspawn taking controlling of a Warden, wouldn't make sense.

[whykikyouwhy]

But the willingness factor is why it may work with Larius, or rather, why I see it working with Larius. For all of his desire to destroy Corypheus, he had been listening to the magister's voice in his head for years. And this also begs the assumption that Larius's desire to vanquish the magister was true, and not some hoax in order to get Hawke to "free" Corypheus of his current body.

If Larius was being compelled by Corypheus all along, he might be willing in the thrall sense. He wouldn't fight the invasion.

[Sepewrath]

I don't think so, the whole thing seemed like Reaper indoctrination, he was pushing little ideas in their head that would benefit him, but not completely control them. Cory wasn't even really aware, it just seemed more like a sub conscious thing for him. Like Larius said to Janeka, how it was Cory giving her the idea to try and control him, obviously for her to do that, she would have to free him. When she does, he would have killed her and left, but I don't think he ever had total control over them to the point where they would just lay down and let him enter their body.

[whykikyouwhy]

gangly369 wrote...

Why not? Because if memory serves me correctly (and if it isnt then please forgive me and I'll quietly shut up about this), if Corypheus pulled an Archdemon on us, then he should be dead. That is his soul should have sputtered out and gone kaboom. The reason? Because when an archdemon enters a Grey Warden, it dies due to there being another soul being already inside said Warden. The archdemon is only able to perform its switching act by going into a darkspawn.

I had the feeling there was something specific regarding a Warden killing an Archdemon. Here's what I found in the wiki:

"The Warden discovers on the eve of the Battle of Denerim that the archdemon must be killed by a Grey Warden. If killed by anyone else, as Riordan explains, its soul will move into the body of the closest darkspawn (who are soulless), and reshape it in the dragon's image, making it almost immortal, short of exterminating every darkspawn in existence. However, if a Grey Warden is the one to kill it, the archdemon will seek out the body of the Grey Warden. The result of two souls attempting to occupy the same body causes both to be destroyed. As the eldest Grey Warden present, Riordan volunteers to be the one to slay the archdemon."

So while the above confirms the two-souls-make-for-the-kaboom detail, it gives a really hazy possibility of transferrance being contingent on who delivers the blow. While Grey Wardens are not technically darkspawn, they do carry the taint, and someone in Larius's state of decay is probably more "other" than he is human. While he is still a Grey Warden, he is not the Grey Warden who made the kill. It's splitting hairs, at best, and doesn't really allow for Janeka, but there may be something more to the matter of did the actual slaying.

[gangly369]

I agree with Sepewrath; this whole thing really seemed like reaper indoctrination to me as well with what Corypheus had been doing before. You've also got some fair points yourself whykikyouwhy, the whole 'who deals the death blow' thing does make it a bit hazy, but I'm not completely sold on it either.

The real reason why I brought up this topic is because of the implications it could have for the future of the franchise. This is actually a plot device, a choice (based on whether you sided with Larius or Janeka), that feels like it could have future consequences in say DA3 or beyond. The magister may still be alive, but based on who you choose to side with whatever Corypheus plans on doing could either become that much easier or that much harder.

Example: Assuming Larius still has a conscience presence inside his body still, along with Corypheus's soul, he could fight against the magister maybe sometimes taking back control of his body for brief periods of time. This would hamper the magister significantly. Larius also being out of society for so long would make it harder for the Magister to blend in (along with the bad haircut and everything). On the other hand, Janeka may just give in and help corypheus out. She could aid Corypheus by helping him blend into society better, further his plans, etc etc. The directions Bioware could go with this are very interesting and intriguing.

Provided Corypheus didnt pull an archdemon and/or destroy the Wardens soul, which would make the only difference in choosing Larius over Janeka (or vice versa) be that ones a girl and the others a guy who has a weird haircut. Note: this would be slightly more boring and would make the choice you made seem ultimately pointless.

[whykikyouwhy]

@gangly369 - If this has implications for future games/DLCs, I doubt that gender would be the crux. I agree that it may be the vessel/personality of the "victim" that will be the key.

However, isn't it possible that Larius or Janeka is just the first leg of the journey, so to speak? I posted a comparison elsewhere to the movie Fallen - a soul/spirit is able to hop bodies upon physical contact (there's Skeleton Key too, but that involves more of a ritual, if memory serves). Corypheus first needed to break free of the prison - he used Hawke as the conduit, the driving force and the "killing blow" then jumped into a Warden. But the Warden's body may be temporary and will be discarded later on when a more suitable vessel is found.

Another long shot, at best.

[jlb524]

Flemeth is able to possess unwilling hosts...apparently (if we believe Morrigan).

[whykikyouwhy]

Regarding Flemeth - if the tales are true, do you think it's full possession (transference of her spirit) or partial possession/manipulation, like a puppetmaster? Since she can tuck away pieces of her in amulets, after all...

[jlb524]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Regarding Flemeth - if the tales are true, do you think it's full possession (transference of her spirit) or partial possession/manipulation, like a puppetmaster? Since she can tuck away pieces of her in amulets, after all...

I'd say full transfer.  Supposedly, she keeps jumping from host to host as each of their body's die.  If it was simply a  matter of her being a separate entity from the host but controlling them somehow from a distance, I don't think she'd need to worry about the host dying and the whole amulet deal wouldn't be needed.

[whykikyouwhy]

I'm thinking she may be able to do both, or rather, it's normally full possession but she can also split herself into separate beings and be in multiple places at once (obscure reference - Superman Red/Superman Blue). I recall, hazily mind you, some comment she made to that effect.

Unless the amulet is just a bookmark of sorts - enough of her to be a beacon to her spirit when her original vessel dies off. It's just a shuttle ride across the ether to a renewed awareness.

Ok - tangential romp ended. Apologies.

[jlb524]

RE: the amulet. I always wondered why Flemeth returned in her former body and didn't instead have to possess someone nearby (most likely Merrill considering she's both female and mage and that seems to be the type of body Flemeth goes for). If the amulet simply held a piece of her spirit, I'd think a host would be needed.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm thinking she may be able to do both, or rather, it's normally full possession but she can also split
herself into separate beings and be in multiple places at once (obscure reference - Superman Red/Superman Blue). I recall, hazily mind you, some comment she made to that effect.

Yeah, she can split herself into pieces of 'Flemeth spirit' (I suppose).

I kind of wonder where else she could be?

RE:  Corypheus...do you think he did something similar?  Split off a part of himself to possess Larius/Janeka?

Modifié par jlb524, 05 août 2011 - 06:18 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps she was setting some other events in motion, pushing a few more dominoes down.

I think Corypheus was the total package - full transfer of files. There would be no need for him to keep the twisted magister shell (not that I can think of, plus the body was scavenged for loot).

[Baiolit]

In Larius's case it makes sense. At this point the taint has progressed to the point where he is more darkspawn than human. There are hints here and there that the "soul" factor might be more of a supposition than an actual reality. If darkspawn have no "soul" how do you explain the darkspawn the Architect created through his makeshift "joining". They could rationalize and had freedom of will. Those traits which seemingly belong to a person. It seems that this possession factor has more to do with the progression of the taint.

What would be the difference between a grey warden-turned-darkspawn and a darkspawn with free will? They can't sense the difference in eachother so chances are there isn't much of one. Janeka on the other hand is another matter. After Corypheus dies, she does confess that she has to go to her Calling, but she is still human.

I believe Corypheus might be able to overpower even a Warden. He is the taint incarnate. He ventured into the black city. The same rules may not apply to him.

Again this is all just multiple hypothesis.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Baiolit - The "taint incarnate" may be the best description for him yet. But I think you make a valid point. As one of the first to feel the taint, to possibly get the first blast of that corruption, he is most likely something with midas in reverse powers and can erode the soul's normal defenses.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Filament - Since the Grey Wardens are normally so secretive as to not readily divulge information within their own order, Riordan may have been talking out of some other orifice. All propaganda to get things in motion.

I think that souls are the spirits of the fade, which may then serve as a purgatory of sorts (very tangential there) - they exist as some sort of energy, maybe partially sentient, and seeking to replicate the living world (or rejoin it).

Passing a will check is the rpg standard for possession, so yeah, why wouldn't it be the case here? Makes sense. Maybe the big boom of clashing souls stinks of lies.

[Brian Lewis]

This is my first post on the forums, so please forgive any mistakes. I have a theory (I don't know if it has been mentioned in another forum) on how Corypheus can possess Larius or Janeka without both souls going BOOM like they would when slaying an Archdemon. If you have read the Quarter novels by Tanya Huff, the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, or the Cleric Quintet by R. A. Salvatore you may know what I am suggesting. Maybe when Corypheus's soul entered the remaining Warden, he tranferred his/her soul into his body at the same time, so Hawke, thinking it's him, kills the Warden instead of Corypheus. This could also explain how Flemeth possesses her daughters as well. Maybe, like Gyhard, Corpsewalker, and Ghost, (from their respective series) Flemeth arranges for her own death and does the soul trade at the last second, so the daughter dies instead and she lives on in a new body.

[FieryDove]

I am guessing that Cory possessing one of the wardens is no different than a demon making an abomination. Cory isn’t an archdemon. A willing or weak host would make this all the more easy.

What I will never understand is how Anders can become possessed twice.

[Macropodmum]

jlb524 wrote...

RE: the amulet. I always wondered why Flemeth returned in her former body and didn't instead have to possess someone nearby (most likely Merrill considering she's both female and mage and that seems to be the type of body Flemeth goes for). If the amulet simply held a piece of her spirit, I'd think a host would be needed.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm thinking she may be able to do both, or rather, it's normally full possession but she can also split
herself into separate beings and be in multiple places at once (obscure reference - Superman Red/Superman Blue). I recall, hazily mind you, some comment she made to that effect.

Yeah, she can split herself into pieces of 'Flemeth spirit' (I suppose).

I kind of wonder where else she could be?

RE:  Corypheus...do you think he did something similar?  Split off a part of himself to possess Larius/Janeka?

You are both assuming she needs a body.  When the warden killed her in DAO Morrigan didn't believe she was really dead in a dead sense and if I remember correctly Morrigna mentioned Flemeth wasn't even human.  And a line from Flemeth in DA2 about bodies being such limiting things kinda makes me think that a body is just a convenience for her....something to ponder anyway

Brian Lewis wrote...
This is my first post on the forums, so please forgive any mistakes. I have a theory (I don't know if it has been mentioned in another forum) on how Corypheus can possess Larius or Janeka without both souls going BOOM like they would when slaying an Archdemon. If you have read the Quarter novels by Tanya Huff, the Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, or the Cleric Quintet by R. A. Salvatore you may know what I am suggesting. Maybe when Corypheus's soul entered the remaining Warden, he tranferred his/her soul into his body at the same time, so Hawke, thinking it's him, kills the Warden instead of Corypheus. This could also explain how Flemeth possesses her daughters as well. Maybe, like Gyhard, Corpsewalker, and Ghost, (from their respective series) Flemeth arranges for her own death and does the soul trade at the last second, so the daughter dies instead and she lives on in a new body.

Hmm kinda like a Buffy/Faith body switch   You know this is quite a feasible idea, rather than just destroying the soul that is in the host body to be they get switched, and if the switched soul gets killed then dead men tell no tales...

[whykikyouwhy]

Macropodmum wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

RE: the amulet. I always wondered why Flemeth returned in her former body and didn't instead have to possess someone nearby (most likely Merrill considering she's both female and mage and that seems to be the type of body Flemeth goes for). If the amulet simply held a piece of her spirit, I'd think a host would be needed.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I'm thinking she may be able to do both, or rather, it's normally full possession but she can also split
herself into separate beings and be in multiple places at once (obscure reference - Superman Red/Superman Blue). I recall, hazily mind you, some comment she made to that effect.

Yeah, she can split herself into pieces of 'Flemeth spirit' (I suppose).

I kind of wonder where else she could be?

RE:  Corypheus...do you think he did something similar?  Split off a part of himself to possess Larius/Janeka?

You are both assuming she needs a body.  When the warden killed her in DAO Morrigan didn't believe she was really dead in a dead sense and if I remember correctly Morrigna mentioned Flemeth wasn't even human.  And a line from Flemeth in DA2 about bodies being such limiting things kinda makes me think that a body is just a convenience for her....something to ponder anyway

*snipped out the 2nd bit*

She probably doesn't need a body, no. But a body is convenient - it's a premade package that she can immediately animate, and immediately utilize to whatever end. Plus, for interactions with mortals, a body is a bridge of familiarity. It's easier to sway mortals when they can recognize the entity in front of them - mortals would be less likely to easily fall to the sway of something intangible, because it would be beyond their comprehension.

The whole dragon-Flemeth being dead thing is why I think Flemeth secured part of her essence in the amulet that Hawke takes to Sundermount. If the dragon body is killed, her spirit can travel to the amulet - that small essence within it is sort of like a homing beacon. Spirit-Flemeth collects herself within the amulet, Merrill performs the ritual at the altar, and Flemeth is "reborn" like a phoenix in golden fire. And even if the dragon was never killed, Flemeth would just zip over to Sundermount to collect that extra bit of herself. The amulet was her insurance policy against the possible destruction of her old lady-dragon vessel.

[whykikyouwhy]

It could be a piece of her flesh, sure. But as a shapeshifter, why would she need to have an old lady core vessel versus a young woman vessel? What is it about the vessel that is vital, if anything? If the flesh of the vessel eventually decays or ages, why is she still in an old lady vessel? Or...is she? She could be in a younger woman's body, but for appearance's sake, she shows off the Helen Mirren chest and gorgeous white hair.

I don't put that much faith in the "army of Morrigans" from the trailer, but here's a thought (I hesitate to call it "interesting") - What if her ability to split herself is limited but her ability to possess is much broader? If she has an army of young (nubile) mages at her disposal, an army of daughters (both in the literal and figurative - apprentice - sense), then she may be able to possess all of them at once. (This is the only way I have been able to wrap my head around "why" they all supposedly look like Morrigan - well, other than just trick of the light or convenience for commercial imagery.) She acts as the puppetmaster for an army of beings that have her powers, or a shade of them. She can't split herself into hundreds, but she can control hundreds and wage a physical and magical war against...something?

It hearkens back to the chessboard thing I think she is involved in. It's an army of pawns.