886 Antworten in diesem Thema

[jamesp81]

At first, I just wrote it off as evil, a tool of demons and their followers.  I'm not so sure that's the case, now.

Increasingly I'm coming to view it as a tool.  Tools have no moral qualities whatsoever.  They're tools, and can be used for good or ill.  It is a dangerous tool, however, as it invites attention from some rather unpleasant creatures.

Blood mages seem to gravitate towards using that talent for ill, but I do wonder how many mages turn to it in desparation when the templars are closing in, and then get mixed up with a demon.

I admit, having Merrill in the game altered my perception of the whole thing.  She's using something very dangerous, but it hasn't turned her into a wild-eyed savage either.  She knows how to resist the demons.

So, what do you think?  Is it evil incarnate or just another, albeit very dangerous, tool?

BTW, I've yet to do a BM playthrough, but I think it might be my next one.  The BM tree looks pretty scary on paper.

[whykikyouwhy]

I lean toward dangerous tool. You could argue that magic itself is evil for all it can do, or that a sword and the arm that wields it is evil. All have potential for destruction, but much is said by intent and reason. Blood magic is powerful and dangerous in the vulnerabilities it imposes upon its user, but its mainly a tool, imo.

[BBK4114]

I also lean toward the very dangerous tool. I don't think all that many mages have the mental fortitude to resist the lure of the demons, and just in-game play my characters have never felt the need to resort to it. They seem powerful enough without it.

[jlb524]

Blood magic isn't inherently 'evil'...the Chantry slapped that label on it in another attempt to demonize mages.

It is apparently more powerful than 'normal' magic and thus more dangerous if in the wrong hands. Thedas is full of all kinds of different power ('normal' magic is also powerful, the Divine with her huge ass Templar army is powerful) and I'd say those things are dangerous too..but not labeled as 'evil'.

[nitefyre410]

My Opinion on Blood magic- hmm let me give an example... Lets take an extreme powerful ability like the control of magnatism with Magneto...

Now this can be used for amazing destructive power he can alter the earths magnetic field or he can stablize every building in San Fransisco and sooth the tetonic plates gently releasing the built up pressure before a major earth quake thus saving thousands of lives(yes he actually did that I did not come up with that. O.o )

Now what are the two difference 1. Intent and 2. Skill.

The problem is that when most mages result the blood magic they are A. in a life or death situation or B. just crazy from the start so its going to be used to harm.

the second is Skill mostly if not all Mages have almost no understanding of how blood magic works and pitfalls, dangerous what to look for how to control it. The closet they get is a Blood Magic bad never use.

Merrill is great example its she uses the tool and does not let the tool use her. Which is the opposite I can say for alot of blood mages.

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

I compare it to explosives. It is powerful, destructive, but also has its uses. Know what you're doing and you're fine, save for the occasional freak accident.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I don't want to sound like a slave to PR, but blood magic, while not inherently evil, has some very disturbing applications, and the people rightly fear it. Mages, if they wish to live in society, must abide by the rules of society, and that means no blood magic.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I used to initially think it's evil, because it seemed only associated with demons, abominations, and degenrates (Uldred, the Baroness, ect).

But in exploring and going through different origins playthroughs, I've come to the conclusion that blood magic is incredibly dangerous and powerful, and should be tightly restricted. This is not because blood magic is dangerous. What it is, is an increidbly powerful fuel source for mages, any mage, and it is so disturbingly easy to access. It's like the equivilant of 9 year old kids being able to build nukes from household items, or being able to buy plutonium batters at the corner store to power their mp3 players. Any mage with a knife or a bleeding wound can basically access powers beyond their ken and ability to control. That's why it's dangerous, and generally, that's why this is one of the few areas I halfway agree with the Chantry. 95% of mages should have absolutely nothing to do with it, because they are not truly "right" to be able to tap into and control such power.

However, like radioactive materials, blood magic has incredible potential for good use, and important breakthroughs probably unavailable through other channels. And there are about 5% of mages who are most capable on controling and mastering themselves enough that they can successfully utilize blood magic without endangering themselves or others through loss of control to demonic influences. The magisters of Tevinter, who seem to be predominantly blood mages, seem to be able to master it (The fact that they are not nice people is errelevant to my point). Avernus also showed himself a capable blood mage. Granted, he did an idiotic thing in opening a hellgate. But he managed to contain his mistake, and for hundreds of years lived along side a non-existant Veil in a keep swarming with demons, yet managed to experiment unmolested AND remain free of possesion. While Avernus might not be the most ethical or moral of people, he is obviously a well mastered mage if he can accomplish this. And his research has proven invaluable to improving the Grey Wardens. Lets not forget he was looking for ways to foil the demons and demonic possesion in mages, something the Chantry doesn't seem to be puruing with much zeal. And he made these breakthroughs with blood magic.

I personally believe that special isolated facilities, like little Area 51s, where blood magic or other "forbidden" research can be conducted under strictly controlled and tightly monitored conditions. Super secure facility, with all sorts of wards, safeguards, and templar trained staff on hand. But still, I believe alot of important and beneficial breakthroughs could beobtained this way, if the Chantry ever pulled its head out of its ass and realized they continually throw the baby out with the bath water.

[TEWR]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Welp, I feel the need to rant about blood magic, only because it's 4 a.m where I am and I can't sleep. So, you know, I need something to pass the time by.
Blood Magic is not inherently evil. It has power yes, but so does a sword, a crossbow, a ballista, a gun, etc. It is only a tool. Tools are deemed good or evil by the methods in which they are utilized. The saying "Guns don't kill people. People kill people" can apply here if changed slightly:

Blood Magic doesn't kill people. Evil and heartless mages kill people.

The Chantry forbids it (imo and Avernus', foolishly so) because of the Tevinter Imperium's past history. Not only that, they claim to know what Andraste meant by her words "Magic must serve man, not rule over him". The problem with this phrase is that there is more than one meaning to it, and only Andraste knew what she meant. There are three meanings that spring to mind:

• The Andrastian belief that mages are dangerous and should be corralled like animals.
  
  
  
  
• Magic should be used to help the people (the Tevinter way of it)
  
  
  
  
• Magic should not influence the mind of a mage. With great power comes great responsibility. This, I feel, is what Andraste truly meant, along with the Tevinter interpretation.

Now, there are different types of Blood Magic. There's the powerful, mind controlling kind we all know and talk about. But there are less well known ways of utilizing blood magic.

The first that springs to mind is the Joining ritual. Consuming Darkspawn blood mixed magically with lyrium and Archdemon blood is Blood Magic. Now people will try to dispute this fact saying "Blood + Magic =/= Blood Magic."

However, they are wrong. The Reaver specialization's Codex says that by consuming Dragon's blood and gaining abilities, it is a definite form of Blood Magic. Blood Magic isn't about only using your blood for power. It's also about gaining power from blood. The same rules that apply to the Reaver spec. apply to the Grey Warden Joining ritual. We also know that the Grey Wardens employ blood magic because it helps to kill the Darkspawn quicker. And with proper ethical research, great strides can and have been made into researching more effective ways of understanding the Darkspawn (see the Avernus quest in DA2 if you let not only Avernus live while continuing ethical research, but spared the Architect)

Secondly, there is the Scrying from Witch Hunt. When Finn asks for Ariane's blood, you can call him out on if it's Blood Magic or not. He says it is. By using her blood, they gain the ability to find the Lights of Arlathan.

Third, we have phylacteries. Possibly one of the biggest, if not the biggest, hypocrisies the Chantry is made of. Templars take the blood of a mage and seal it in a vial. Should that mage escape, they use the phylactery to track him/her down. They gain the ability to find the mage in a population of enormous sizes. This is Blood Magic, which the Chantry condones as long as they are using it. Or perhaps they refuse to admit that they are wrong and it is blood magic.

Now, let's examine how to learn Blood Magic. Anders says in Dragon Age 2 to Merrill, and I'm paraphrasing here:

• "Tell me you just cut your wrist on accident and discovered blood magic."

which implies that any mage can stumble across the power of blood magic, but without proper training it is useless. He also states in a banter with Fenris (again, paraphrasing):

• "You have to look a demon in the eye to learn blood magic"

which seems to me to mean that demons can teach a mage how to properly use blood magic. Again, any mage can stumble across its' powers, but without training it is useless.

Mages can also learn Blood Magic from a book, thus eliminating/mitigating the risk of consorting with a demon or cutting your wrists too deeply. Jowan is a case in point, as he learned Blood Magic from a book. He tells you he only skimmed a little bit of a book and dabbled. The irony in this situation is that the Chantry forbids Blood Magic learning, yet the Circle of Ferelden kept books on the subject, which Irving confiscated later on. Whether they were known to be there is a mystery, but if they were the Chantry is operating on some faulty logic. A line I came up with and used a lot regarding this scenario is as follows:

You can teach a man that bombs are dangerous without giving him a blueprint of how to make said bomb.

Next, let's examine a comprehensive list (to the best of my knowledge) of known blood mages and determine whether they fall into the good, evil, or neutral category.

• Uldred- Bat**** insane Blood Mage who almost destroyed the Circle, and in turn was possessed (or merged willingly?) with a Pride demon. EVIL.
  
  
  
  
• Jowan - A kind and good, albeit bumbling, mage who didn't want his emotions torn away from him. He was in love with Lily, and because he dabbled in blood magic he would've been made Tranquil? I can understand what he did. A lot of people blame the whole Arl of Redcliffe quest on him, but I don't see that as the case. I don't remember whether I claimed he was innocent or guilty in another thread that talked about blood mages, but I feel if you're going to blame Jowan, so too must you blame Isolde and Loghain. However, one could argue that Connor's deal with the demon was the only thing that kept Eamon alive. If he had died, the Wardens would've been royally screwed.
  
  
  
  
• Anders - Good. You have the option of making him a Blood Mage in Awakening, and your Warden can even address this fact in Amaranthine. This inevitably makes him a Blood Mage, as the storyline then considers it canon. However, Anders in DA2 views BM as bad, no doubt due to his Andrastian beliefs. So one can assume that sometime between Awakening and DA2, if you made him a BM, he ceased practicing the arcane art.
  
  
  
  
• Merrill - Possibly one of the smartest mages out there. She is able to recognize that all Fade spirits are dangerous and there is no separation of them. She practices her BM safely, and only uses her blood. That is in itself the mark of a good BM. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade against spirits, saying that the only thing you can believe is yourself. The only time she betrays you is in Feynriel's quest in his mind, and that's only because the demon forced her to betray you much like the Sloth demon's minions in Broken Circle did to some of your companions by giving them a false reality. She even addresses this afterwards. GOOD.
  
  
  
  
• Quentin - Evil and bat**** insane. I don't need to give anymore details on it. We know the deal. He went insane after his wife died. I kinda feel sympathy for him, but not really.
  
  
  
  
• Gascard - sort of a grey area himself. He helps Hawke, but only so he can kill Quentin and learn necromancy (which wasn't that available in the Spirit school?). If you convince him that what he's doing is a bad move, he relents on Blood Magic and vows to live a better life, assuming you let him live. Not many blood mages get a second chance, so I'll place him in the neutral area.
  
  
  
  
• Alain - Good. He didn't really use it for anything other than freeing the hostage.
  
  
  
  
• Decimus - bat**** insane. Had a nice wavy hair thing going in the scene where you meet him though. Evil
  
  
  
  
• Grace - sane at first. Then goes bat**** insane. Or was possessed prior to that event, since you fight an Abomination of her. So evil
  
  
  
  
• Orsino - Good, albeit misguided.  Orsino had been fighting Meredith since Year 1 of Hawke's tenure within Kirkwall (Varric says "That's also when the trouble began with the mages"). And in Act 3, Meredith squeezes harder and harder, and forces more mages to undergo the Rite of Tranquility. Mages that have passed their Harrowing. She is growing increasingly paranoid and insane, and Orsino fights back within his power. After Anders plays Jenga with the Chantry, the Mage-Templar conflict now spirals into a full-blown war. Meredith called the Right of Annulment not because Elthina was killed, but because she could. She had wanted to call it for a long time, and she realized then that she could. So she did.
  
  
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 Now finally, we must examine the origins of Blood Magic. We have conflicting sources on the matter. We have:

• 
  
  
• Blood Magic came from the Old Gods.
  
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was taught to mages by demons.
  
  
  
  
• Blood Magic was first used by the elves of Arlathan and then the Tevinter Imperium took that knowledge for themselves.

We don't know which, if any, is the true scenario. For all we know some mage picked up a book entitled Blood Magic and You: A Beginner's Guide On How to Properly Slit Your Wrists

So, in closing to this long rant that took me 45 minutes to type out and think on, blood magic is not inherently evil. It can be used for evil purposes, but that does not make it evil. If it did, then using a gun should be considered evil and banned forever. It's a tool. Nothing more.

anything you want me to elaborate on people, feel free to ask and I shall try my best.

 

I believe that Blood Magic may have untapped medicinal potential. One theory that came to mind the other day was that maybe Blood Magic might help to control the blood flow of a person who had an artery cut (meaning keeping the blood flowing through the body without it spraying everywhere). I don't know if you can save a person whose artery has been cut (I think you can if you're quick enough), but if not then just take my example and apply it to something else.

Those are some things that I wrote months back. It's not inherently evil, and we know that it can combat the taint. It can cleanse tainted objects and prolong its effects on the body.

[Khambilo]

I have no patience for blood magic or those who use it. From a game mechanics standpoint, blood mages are the worst enemies to fight. But I suspect the topic is mostly directed at the lore and narrative idea of blood magic. As far as that goes, I dislike it because in a way it feels like cheating. A mage doesn't have the time/power/resources/training/etc. to do something so they turn to blood magic. This sort of cheapens the idea that magic is a skill you hone and train to obtain a level of mastery over. If you notice, most of the characters in DA that use blood magic are either not particularly strong mages with good intentions (Jowan or Merril) or those who have been backed into a corner (Orsino and many other Kirkwall mages). With that in mind, I would have to lean towards the "blood magic is evil" side of the spectrum because I find anything that preys on the weak is inherently evil.

[Darius Vir]

I view it as a very powerful thing. I think most things have an increasing capability to be dangerous the more powerful they get/are. 

Bearbeitet von Darius Vir, 05 August 2011 - 07:04 .

[jlb524]

Khambilo wrote...

A mage doesn't have the time/power/resources/training/etc. to do something so they turn to blood magic. This sort of cheapens the idea that magic is a skill you hone and train to obtain a level of mastery over. If you notice, most of the characters in DA that use blood magic are either not particularly strong mages with good intentions (Jowan or Merril) or those who have been backed into a corner (Orsino and many other Kirkwall mages). With that in mind, I would have to lean towards the "blood magic is evil" side of the spectrum because I find anything that preys on the weak is inherently evil.

I disagree.  I'd imagine you'd have to be skilled in general magic to undertake blood magic.

RE:  Merrill.  She doesn't turn to blood magic because she's not a 'strong' mage.  She specifically begins to use it in order to cleanse the eluvian shard of the taint.  She mentions that if she had a ton of lyrium lying around, she would have used that instead.  Merrill was in a situation where blood magic was the only way to accomplish her goal, not that she felt she was 'weak' and needed a boost to her magic.

RE:  Jowan.  I think he started studying blood magic out of curiosity...that's the impression I got at least.

RE:  Orsino.  He didn't use BM (publicly at least) before because it's criminalized.  So, yeah, when backed into a corner and in a life or death situation, one isn't too concerned about breaking the rules, but with survival.

Also, I don't see how even if any of that were true, that you can conclude BM is evil.

Bearbeitet von jlb524, 05 August 2011 - 07:15 .

[Zanallen]

It isn't evil, but it is dangerous and open to interesting forms of corruption not present in regular magical schools.

[Blacklash93]

Khambilo wrote...

I would have to lean towards the "blood magic is evil" side of the spectrum because I find anything that preys on the weak is inherently evil.

Tools, no matter how dangerous, don't prey on the weak and thus connot be inherently evil. The weak themselves turn to them. Human nature is to blame.

You can't blame the object of interest for temptation. You can only blame the person.

[Vit246]

Blood magic is blood magic. Neither good nor evil. People say it is powerful and dangerous, but then again all magic is powerful and dangerous. Attempting to ban it is ultimately useless and foolish, since if a mage wants to learn it, he will find a way, and then only the "evil" kind of mages would have sole access to it, leaving other mages at a great disadvantage. I think blood magic should at least be introduced into the Circles as a "Defence Against the Dark Arts" type and regulated. I wonder if blood magic is absolutely required for summoning demons.

Bearbeitet von Vit246, 05 August 2011 - 07:54 .

[TEWR]

It should also be noted that becoming a Grey Warden and becoming a Reaver involves blood magic, and the Chantry deliberately hides the Reaver information from the public because that would mean it doesn't take a mage to go insane and kill people. A Circle mage had done a comprehensive report on reavers and said that becoming one was indeed blood magic. There's no excuse for why the Chantry would hide this information from the public except that they know it would weaken their stranglehold on the mages.

[Alexander1136]

Blood magic= dumb

not morally wrong just stupid because it has a high probablity of killing the user.

[Zanallen]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It should also be noted that becoming a Grey Warden and becoming a Reaver involves blood magic, and the Chantry deliberately hides the Reaver information from the public because that would mean it doesn't take a mage to go insane and kill people. A Circle mage had done a comprehensive report on reavers and said that becoming one was indeed blood magic. There's no excuse for why the Chantry would hide this information from the public except that they know it would weaken their stranglehold on the mages.

Might not take a mage, but it still requires the use of blood magic. Besides, anyone can kill another. Mages can just do it on a larger scale.

[Robhuzz]

I take a stance that's a combination between Merrill's and Anders' opinions.

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

[Recycled Human]

I see this as the same problem as the question 'do I let the architect live to hopefully prevent the remaining blights, or do I kill this sinister creature who seems reformed'. Ultimately it comes down to picking your sides. Just as darkspawn require the death of man, elves, dwarves and qunari to survive so too do demons. And blood magic is the doorway. I believe it is mentioned that in order to even learn blood magic, commune with a demon is required so you've already given them a foothold. And since you were probably pushed too far in the fist place to start practicing the deadly, dangerous art what's to say that future conflict might also push you to go even further?

The correct answer for me is found in the Qun. Don't half ass imprisoning these innocent individuals because they were cursed (and in their glass prisons give them the illusion of respect) bind them up, guard them safely, demand their death at the slightest hint of demonic influence. This is war. These mages were choosen to fill a role, just as the warrior was choosen and so on and so forth.

For the greater good sacrifices must be made.

PS I hope they let us pick qunari as our chosen race next time XD

[jlb524]

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

Alexander1136 wrote...

not morally wrong just stupid because it has a high probablity of killing the user.

How so?

[Vit246]

A Warden mage can make a deal with a demon for blood magic without it backfiring on anyone. Besides, there is nothing that says blood magic must absolutely be learned from demons.

Bearbeitet von Vit246, 05 August 2011 - 08:14 .

[phaonica]

My characters have wildly varying opinions about blood magic. Some think it's evil, some think it's a tool no different than fire or poison. Personally, I consider it a tool, mostly because I don't really believe in "evil".

As a game mechanic, I think it should be at least a little more difficult to obtain the ability to cast from a blood magic tree, and I also think there should be some kind of in-game, narrative, consequence for performing blood magic in public or full view of templars <_<

Bearbeitet von phaonica, 05 August 2011 - 08:36 .

[Potato Cat]

I always seen and known blood magic to be merely misunderstood. It's only really feared because it's to do with blood which is thought to be...you know. If blood magic didn't use blood but.......rainbows and was rainbow magic, with all the same danger and power associated with blood magic, would we truly fear it? No. In fact I feel sorry for blood magic.