886 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

yea if you spare her she sends you a letter about the tomes. If you kill her, you can just find the tomes yourself.

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

technically she didn't kill anyone. She just led them to Tarohne.

I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong here. But it's not like she won't repent since you hand her over to the Templars and they lock her up, most likely in the Aeonar.

I usually go 50-50 myself. kill her one playthrough, spare her the next.

She would have killed my non mage hawke's and then the other party members one by one while the others *watched*.

Yes, BM is so not ebil.

I wonder what happens if you don't have a mage in the party at all? Has anyone tried? Fenris is the only one who seemed to resist the BM a bit.

[Out to Lunch]

^ Hawke is able to concentrate and break the hold she has over him/her. Needless to say Hawke does not like being controlled.

Modifié par Out to Lunch, 09 août 2011 - 05:41 .

[Ulicus]

I imagine I'm simply repeating what many others have said, but... the issue with Blood Magic isn't that it's inherently evil (it's not), but that it's ridiculously easy to abuse. It wouldn't be so bad if a caster were limited to their own blood as fuel for their spells... but they're not. And that, inevitably, leads to corruption. Maybe not on an individual level but certainly on the larger scale.

That said, I tend to think that the blanket ban imposed by the Chantry -- and their reasoning for it -- is somewhat self defeating. It might make more sense to introduce a system by which exceptions can be made within the Circle. Or that might be a terrible idea. I don't know.

Modifié par Ulicus, 09 août 2011 - 10:34 .

[Icy Magebane]

I guess technically it isn't evil in and of itself, but I've never made a blood mage that wasn't also a maleficar. I think that blood magic might be dangerous in that it can leave the user more open to possession by demons, but aside from that, it's like anything other weapon. All that matters is what you do with it, not what it's capable of.

Since the PC is obviously immune to demonic possession, it's a lot easier to rationalize blood magic as a tool and not an "evil" form of magic. The consequences placed on every other mage are removed, so there is a disconnect between what the player is told and what they experience as a blood mage... but since that's the case, I just have to go back to my original conclusion that the only thing that matters is what you do with magic. Now, if you actually had to sacrifice slaves and deal with demons to learn and maintain blood magic... that might change a few minds.

[TEWR]

I believe that the only reason a blood mage may get possessed easier is if they become arrogant, (cocky, complacent, whatever else describes it) and they let their guard down.

I don't think blood magic actually leads to an increased risk of possession (unless you summon demons).

[Torax]

The problem is the thought that Blood Magic and Demons go hand in hand. That isn't necessarily true. Though I would think using either extensively would lead to trouble. Generally dealing with demons extensively will lead to ruin I bet. Meanwhile Blood Magic could very well be a danger to your health and body if you used your own life to fuel the spells. More importantly by draining yourself physically/mentally with the Blood Magic could in that line of thinking have you not as strong in willpower to withstand the demons reaching at you. That would be a great risk. Something to consider anyway. But Blood Magic in and of it'self is just a tool to me. No different than a gun or a sword though granted it's more like a caster version of a energizer battery. Where is my Blood Magic Bunny?

Modifié par Torax, 09 août 2011 - 11:53 .

[Icy Magebane]

Well, according to the lore, you need to learn it from a demon, right? So while you're bargaining with this demon, maybe they trip you up and it's abomination time? But I've seen a fair amount of argument that leads me to believe that you can also learn it by other means (like books), and that this isn't just a game mechanic to allow for the specialization in Awakening without an associated quest... but like I said, there's still a huge difference in "PC blood mage" and "NPC blood mage..." That's why I'm not inclined to believe in its inherent evil one way or the other. We have not been given consistent facts regarding this form of magic.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 09 août 2011 - 11:57 .

[Sepewrath]

Icy Magebane wrote...
I guess technically it isn't evil in and of itself, but I've never made a blood mage that wasn't also a maleficar. I think that blood magic might be dangerous in that it can leave the user more open to possession by demons, but aside from that, it's like anything other weapon. All that matters is what you do with it, not what it's capable of.

Being a blood mages means your a Maleficar, that title is given to anyone who practices what is considered forbidden magic, so they mean the same thing. But its not just the PC that shows blood magic, isn't just one way road to being an abomination; Jowan, Merrill, Morrigan, Grey Wardens etc all show this isn't the case. A non blood mage is just as likely to become an abomination as a blood mage. On top of that, people who aren't mages at all can become abominations, so that's where the whole "Its a tool" thing comes from.

[TEWR]

It's possible that the only reason a person has to learn from demons most of the time is due to the Chantry getting rid of the knowledge and most of it has been lost over the centuries.

I imagine Tevinter has books on it that don't require consorting with a demon, seeing as the city of Minrathous has the largest collection of arcane knowledge in Thedas.

[Torax]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's possible that the only reason a person has to learn from demons most of the time is due to the Chantry getting rid of the knowledge and most of it has been lost over the centuries.

I imagine Tevinter has books on it that don't require consorting with a demon, seeing as the city of Minrathous has the largest collection of arcane knowledge in Thedas.

Granted I'm sure those books are behind closed doors and only for the Magisters to see. But I have no doubt that they do exist. Not to mention an extensive knowledge of dealing with Spirits and other things that the Chantry hates and fears.

[Sylvianus]

I just replayed dao.

It said : magic attracts evil spirits and blood magic involves a pact with a demon.

It has changed in DA2 ?

[rak72]

It would be kind of cool if you decided to specialize in blood magic, that there would be a risk of becoming possessed. The lower your will power & the mor often you use it, the higher the probability.

[Icy Magebane]

Sepewrath wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
I guess technically it isn't evil in and of itself, but I've never made a blood mage that wasn't also a maleficar. I think that blood magic might be dangerous in that it can leave the user more open to possession by demons, but aside from that, it's like anything other weapon. All that matters is what you do with it, not what it's capable of.

Being a blood mages means your a Maleficar, that title is given to anyone who practices what is considered forbidden magic, so they mean the same thing. But its not just the PC that shows blood magic, isn't just one way road to being an abomination; Jowan, Merrill, Morrigan, Grey Wardens etc all show this isn't the case. A non blood mage is just as likely to become an abomination as a blood mage. On top of that, people who aren't mages at all can become abominations, so that's where the whole "Its a tool" thing comes from.

Well, Jowan was rather inept, and technically Morrigan and Merril would have PC status, as they are party members and do not follow lore.... Whatever... I agree with you really, but I'm still not convinced that possession isn't more likely if you are dealing directly with demonic forces in order to learn, augment, or control your power.  But like I keep saying, the in-game representation of blood magic is inconsistent, and so all we can do is speculate.

And I thought that "maleficar," was a mage who "misused" their power... as in using their powers to rule normal folks, as the Chant of Light suggests?  It has nothing to do with forbidden magic.  Although you are immediately branded a maleficar if you practice blood magic, you can also be a maleficar without using blood magic... the latter is what I was referring to, if that was unclear.  An "evil" mage, not a mage called maleficar simply due to using blood magic.

rak72 wrote...

It would be kind of cool if you decided to specialize in blood magic, that there would be a risk of becoming possessed. The lower your will power & the mor often you use it, the higher the probability.

I agree.  Whatever the NPC's supposedly have to deal with when they learn blood magic should also be experienced by the PC.  Otherwise, we as players are free to come up with whatever interpretation we want, when in reality, it might just come down do game mechanics that the didn't implement for one reason or another.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It's possible that the only reason a person has to learn from demons most of the time is due to the Chantry getting rid of the knowledge and most of it has been lost over the centuries.

I imagine Tevinter has books on it that don't require consorting with a demon, seeing as the city of Minrathous has the largest collection of arcane knowledge in Thedas.

Though you're capable of finding scrolls written by expert Blood Mages which was mentioned by the quest giver as a way to learn blood magic, if you read the scrolls as you find them it essentially boils down to giving yourself to a demon willingly or binding it to your will and learning from it.

There's also the mention of a lot of rituals and such on said scrolls, which means they aren't exactly ignoring the spell casting aspect of it. It's odd that they'd tell you to summon a demon and bind it to your will if they were going to be writing blood magic spells immediately afterward, unless it was the only possible way of becoming a blood mage.

It's entirely possible there's books in Minrathous on blood magic, though from what we've seen so far it seems more like it offers knowledge on what to expect and deal with rather than teaching you actual blood magic.

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus, the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to instruct him on how to use blood magic, so I already see an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts expecting another mage to teach him how to use blood instead of mana to power spells. There's also the implication from the Magi Origin that Jowan learned from reading books on the subject, which is why those books were removed from the library by Irving.

[Sith Grey Warden]

Sylvianus wrote...

I just replayed dao.

It said : magic attracts evil spirits and blood magic involves a pact with a demon.

It has changed in DA2 ?

Where exactly does it say that? It's important to consider that most codex entries are in fact written by people in-universe, so they are not guaranteed to be accurate. And didn't Jowan learn blood magic without a demon through books?

[Dave of Canada]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus, the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to instruct him on how to use blood magic, so I already see an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts expecting another mage to teach him how to use blood instead of mana to power spells. There's also the implication from the Magi Origin that Jowan learned from reading books on the subject, which is why those books were removed from the library by Irving.

You mean the Pride Demon who's pretending to be the Baroness and the books which could very well be simply a study on Blood Magic (we don't know anything except it's subject was blood magic)?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 août 2011 - 02:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yeah, he means that demon, and those books.

[LobselVith8]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus, the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to instruct him on how to use blood magic, so I already see an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts expecting another mage to teach him how to use blood instead of mana to power spells. There's also the implication from the Magi Origin that Jowan learned from reading books on the subject, which is why those books were removed from the library by Irving.

You mean the Pride Demon who's pretending to be the Baroness and the books which could very well be simply a study on Blood Magic (we don't know anything except it's subject was blood magic)?

You mean the person the Orlesian Warden assumes is simply a mage because he isn't told she's become a Pride Demon until after he returned to the real world? Yeah, that Warden, and that same Orlesian Baroness who he doesn't know has become a demon.

We know the books were in the library of the Circle Tower, and that Irving removed them at the same time the Rite was signed against Jowan, which is why I said it was the implication given.

[Plaintiff]

Blood Magic may be dangerous but it's not nherently evil. Some of its uses, such as mind control, ught to be regarded with suspicion, but Blood Magic cannot be blamed for the way individuals use it.

The Chantry labels it as "evil" because it is a force they cannot control. It has nothing to do with the actual moral complexities of using it.

[TEWR]

I do wonder if the Fade Baroness was the real one and not the Pride Demon Baroness thinking he was the real Baroness.

At any rate, I imagine that theoretically a person could write how to do blood magic spells in great detail without having to summon a demon. I think any person can stumble onto its power, but because of how the knowlege of it is lost to all of Thedas save for Tevinter, demons are the only way to know how to properly utilize that power and not go overboard.

"One drop of blood and that should d---"

*KABLAMO!!*

"Welp.... that experiment went wrong."

and no I'm not calling mages nuclear bombs or anything. Just trying to make a funny. Back to the topic, the reason people outside of Tevinter probably don't write a book on how to do blood magic without demons is probably due to fear that the Chantry will catch on to them somehow.

[Icy Magebane]

I'm still not convinced. There's no reason to assume that blood magic can be learned from books simply because the PC can... I mean, if it were that simple, why wouldn't this be common knowledge among all Circle mages? They could easily overthrow the Chantry if they all used blood magic that could be learned without the aid of demons. If this was possible, why keep it a secret, and even worse, why would the ones who know about this keep it a secret from other mages who are similarly "oppressed?"

No, I think it all boils down to game mechanics... unfortunately, it's a reality we have to face sometimes. We're talking about a video game, and as realistic as it may seem at times, we have to face the fact that developers only go so far in ensuring that the world is consistent. Blood magic is an example of them putting the availability of the specialization to the player ahead of a realistic representation based on lore. At least, that's the case post-DA:O... at least in DA:O, you had to actually deal with a demon on some level (or just load a game where you'd done it previously, which I do not agree with...  ) in order to learn it. The DA:A spec books just threw everything out the window, and that includes Arcane Warrior, which should also only be possible under specific circumstances...

Personally, I don't think specs should ever be possible without an associated quest. Like, I never pick Reaver until I've killed the first dragon in DA2, and I don't pick Templar until Act 2, when it's at least somewhat plausible that Hawke could have joined the order in the preceding 3 years... but that's just me. It's probably more convenient for most people to have it accessible at any time.

I also want to add that I don't believe we ever found out exactly how Jowan learned blood magic.  A lot of people seem to assume he learned it from books, but I see no evidence of this.  Just because he was a nice guy doesn't mean he didn't deal with demons... and as far as I know, you can't learn this magic from a book unless you are the PC or the PC's companion.  Plus, you shouldn't forget how many blood mages were in the Ferelden Circle... it's possible that Jowan was part of that group, and that they all learned this magic from demons... it's hard to say.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 10 août 2011 - 05:34 .

[Rifneno]

Dave of Canada wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sylvianus, the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to instruct him on how to use blood magic, so I already see an example of a learned scholar of the arcane arts expecting another mage to teach him how to use blood instead of mana to power spells. There's also the implication from the Magi Origin that Jowan learned from reading books on the subject, which is why those books were removed from the library by Irving.

You mean the Pride Demon who's pretending to be the Baroness and the books which could very well be simply a study on Blood Magic (we don't know anything except it's subject was blood magic)?

I still wonder what exactly happened there.  Justice says "there may have been such a woman once... but now?  That is a demon of pride."  It sounds like he's implying she was a human who eventually actually became a demon.  Not an abomination, but an actual demon.  But then, Justice has been known to say things and then clarify that he has no idea what the real situation is.