886 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I imagine she's akin to Uldred.


*laughs*

"Uldred? He is gone! I am Uldred, and yet I am not Uldred."

[Ulicus]

If we're going to just outright ignore the fact that Anders can be instructed in blood magic by the Warden-Commander (for whatever reason) the fact that the blood magic description says that the talents were originally learned from demons implies that there have been other ways to learn the skills since then.

I would think that had BioWare meant to imply that blood magic was exclusively learned from demons, they'd have said that.

Modifié par Ulicus, 10 août 2011 - 10:13 .

[SkittlesKat96]

 I think magic in general is always pretty dangerous, blood magic isn't necessarily always bad but it can lead to bad things.

A lot of Fade demons see the real world as being meaningless and they have no sympathy, some even hate the real world/non-fade world...so you have to remember how catastrophic it would be if there was some sort of Fade demon outbreak.

Think of if the fade and blood magic was a real life problem. I don't think the government would be very happy with blood magic just because of the fact that some silly mage could end up wiping out half a town because of it.

So yeah...blood magic and magic in general is pretty dangerous and I think the Templars and Chantry have a little bit of justification for what they do (even if ones like Meredith are completely crazy and can't compromise at all.)

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ulicus wrote...

If we're going to just outright ignore the fact that Anders can be instructed in blood magic by the Warden-Commander (for whatever reason) the fact that the blood magic description says that the talents were originally learned from demons implies that there have been other ways to learn the skills since then.

I would think that had BioWare meant to imply that blood magic was exclusively learned from demons, they'd have said that.

Except the Warden-Commander only tells Anders to learn it, not how to use it.

[Ulicus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

If we're going to just outright ignore the fact that Anders can be instructed in blood magic by the Warden-Commander (for whatever reason) the fact that the blood magic description says that the talents were originally learned from demons implies that there have been other ways to learn the skills since then.

I would think that had BioWare meant to imply that blood magic was exclusively learned from demons, they'd have said that.

Except the Warden-Commander only tells Anders to learn it, not how to use it.

Yeah, which is why -- as I pointed out -- even if we choose to dismiss Anders as relevent (and ignore that the chances of pre-Origin Jowan managing to successfully bargain with a demon without being possessed are minimal) there's still nothing to support the notion that blood magic is exclusively learnt from demons and, in fact, the spec. description is worded in such a way that implies the contrary. That Anders is instructed, or told, or whatever by the Warden-Commander was kind of beside the point.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the most potent "bang for your buck" blood magic was learnt from demons, that said.

Modifié par Ulicus, 10 août 2011 - 11:59 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine she's akin to Uldred.


*laughs*

"Uldred? He is gone! I am Uldred, and yet I am not Uldred."

Except when we see the scene where the Orlesian Warden asks her to teach him blood magic, all he knows is that she's another mage. The scene where Justice reveals that she's become a demon hasn't happened yet, because that transpires when he's in the real world. If it was only learned from demons, then the Orlesian Warden - a learned scholar of the arcane arts who was gifted with robes by Empress Celene herself - wouldn't be asking another mage to teach him, since all he is aware of at this time is that she's a powerful mage from Orlais.

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Idunna, Tarohne, they are all the same to me... Dead.

So you'd kill her even though she repents?

She had already caused the death of several Templar recruits. I'm not about to spare her jsut becsaue she goes all "ooh you've shown me the error of my ways! I will forever more live a life of righteouness and honour!..... Can we please forget about the people I've killed?" She is a blood mage and a menace... And she tried to kill me...

Killing a few templars isn't a crime.  It's a good start.

[Rifneno]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Idunna, Tarohne, they are all the same to me... Dead.

So you'd kill her even though she repents?

She had already caused the death of several Templar recruits. I'm not about to spare her jsut becsaue she goes all "ooh you've shown me the error of my ways! I will forever more live a life of righteouness and honour!..... Can we please forget about the people I've killed?" She is a blood mage and a menace... And she tried to kill me...

Killing a few templars isn't a crime.  It's a good start.

+1

[jamesp81]

Ulicus wrote...

I imagine I'm simply repeating what many others have said, but... the issue with Blood Magic isn't that it's inherently evil (it's not), but that it's ridiculously easy to abuse. It wouldn't be so bad if a caster were limited to their own blood as fuel for their spells... but they're not. And that, inevitably, leads to corruption. Maybe not on an individual level but certainly on the larger scale.

That said, I tend to think that the blanket ban imposed by the Chantry -- and their reasoning for it -- is somewhat self defeating. It might make more sense to introduce a system by which exceptions can be made within the Circle. Or that might be a terrible idea. I don't know.

One of the obvious problems with a complete ban on blood magic is that circle mages have very little knowledge on how to resist it.  I suspect the Chantry's plan on that is "let the blood mage kill as many mages as he wants, and we'll let the templars clean up the mess".

[jamesp81]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Well, according to the lore, you need to learn it from a demon, right?

Not necessarily

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."

Link

Make of that what you will

Modifié par jamesp81, 10 août 2011 - 06:08 .

[esper]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Idunna, Tarohne, they are all the same to me... Dead.

So you'd kill her even though she repents?

She had already caused the death of several Templar recruits. I'm not about to spare her jsut becsaue she goes all "ooh you've shown me the error of my ways! I will forever more live a life of righteouness and honour!..... Can we please forget about the people I've killed?" She is a blood mage and a menace... And she tried to kill me...

Killing a few templars isn't a crime.  It's a good start.

+5 approval. Honestly Tarohne's idea was good. Mind control the templars and make them fear their own: Good idea. Make a new imperium and place mages above everyone else: Bad idea - really bad idea.

[The Baconer]

Bioware Social: Blood Magic is evil because the more you use it... Like... You're dealing with demons all the time!

Official Description: (...) Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it's tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons.

oh ok.

[jamesp81]

esper wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Idunna, Tarohne, they are all the same to me... Dead.

So you'd kill her even though she repents?

She had already caused the death of several Templar recruits. I'm not about to spare her jsut becsaue she goes all "ooh you've shown me the error of my ways! I will forever more live a life of righteouness and honour!..... Can we please forget about the people I've killed?" She is a blood mage and a menace... And she tried to kill me...

Killing a few templars isn't a crime.  It's a good start.

+5 approval. Honestly Tarohne's idea was good. Mind control the templars and make them fear their own: Good idea. Make a new imperium and place mages above everyone else: Bad idea - really bad idea.

Tarohne was insane to say the least, however.  The only thing my Hawke felt when he cut her down was the thump as his sword struck home.

This post reminds me of how conflicted and convoluted the feelings of my Hawke, and myself for that matter, are on the whole chantry / mage thing.

My Hawke is a devout Andastrian, but he harbors a great deal of mistrust towards the Chantry itself, and he especially detests templars as a group.  There's a lot of anger for Hawke about the whole thing, as he sees the Chantry as having forgotten its own teachings.  If Hawke were here to say it himself.....

"Andraste fought and died for others to be free.  The Chantry has forgotten this legacy.  I will remind them of it...with a sword."

My poor Hawke sometimes flip flops on whether he thinks all templars should bear the guilt of the order's worst members.  He also flip flops on whether some of the blood mages' methods are too extreme.  The only thing he's never flip flopped on, that he's always held as true, is that a man has a right to his life, liberty, and property, mages included.  And that is enough.

[esper]

I don't deny Tarohne was crazy, but her idea was better than: Let myself get possessed and do random damage. She specific targeted the templars in a place where it hurt - their paranoia. seen from a stricly war-point of view is getting the enemy to fight amongst themself a good strategy. From an etchical view was what she did terrible, and my Hawke is relieved to get rid of her before too many more jumps on the mages-are-evil bandwagon.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

I don't deny Tarohne was crazy, but her idea was better than: Let myself get possessed and do random damage. She specific targeted the templars in a place where it hurt - their paranoia. seen from a stricly war-point of view is getting the enemy to fight amongst themself a good strategy. From an etchical view was what she did terrible, and my Hawke is relieved to get rid of her before too many more jumps on the mages-are-evil bandwagon.

I agree. I wish Tarohne wasn't insane (along with Decimus, Grace, and pretty much every mage who doesn't bend knee to the Chantry) because I would have liked Hawke to side with a plan to dismantle the Order of Templars from their seat of power over Kirkwall. Ethically speaking, I think an apostate Hawke could think that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't deny Tarohne was crazy, but her idea was better than: Let myself get possessed and do random damage. She specific targeted the templars in a place where it hurt - their paranoia. seen from a stricly war-point of view is getting the enemy to fight amongst themself a good strategy. From an etchical view was what she did terrible, and my Hawke is relieved to get rid of her before too many more jumps on the mages-are-evil bandwagon.

I agree. I wish Tarohne wasn't insane (along with Decimus, Grace, and pretty much every mage who doesn't bend knee to the Chantry) because I would have liked Hawke to side with a plan to dismantle the Order of Templars from their seat of power over Kirkwall. Ethically speaking, I think an apostate Hawke could think that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

The problems with Tahrone's plan was etchically that she was harming very young persons, recruits. Of course you could be cynical and say that they already was a part of the military and thus legal targets...
And don't even get me started on Decimus... Grace I understand, Hawke killed the person she loved and she had six years or so to plot revenge - no wonder she went nuts.
... I don't think Alain was a nutcase and in the end he did try to stand up to the chantry.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

The problems with Tahrone's plan was etchically that she was harming very young persons, recruits. Of course you could be cynical and say that they already was a part of the military and thus legal targets...
And don't even get me started on Decimus... Grace I understand, Hawke killed the person she loved and she had six years or so to plot revenge - no wonder she went nuts.
... I don't think Alain was a nutcase and in the end he did try to stand up to the chantry.

People would get hurt whether Hawke stops or aids Tahrone - the mages living under Meredith's thumb, who suffer from templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, or the templars and their recruits. I could see a pragmatic pro-mage Hawke making such a decision, if the narrative permitted meaningful choices that were carried out throughout all three Acts. It would have even been nice if Decimus wasn't a cartoon and was instead a sane mage who would either accept assistance from a pro-mage Hawke or fight a pro-templar Hawke.

And Alain unfortunately suffered nightly visits from the templars with the threat of being made tranquil if he tells anyone, based on what he explicitly says in Act II and what he implies in Act III. I wish Hawke could persuade him to run from Kirkwall, given what happens to him in the Circle. Alain didn't really stand up to the Chantry, but sided with Ser Thrask, as he admits in "Best Served Cold," and makes it clear it's because he wants to remove Meredith from power.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

The problems with Tahrone's plan was etchically that she was harming very young persons, recruits. Of course you could be cynical and say that they already was a part of the military and thus legal targets...
And don't even get me started on Decimus... Grace I understand, Hawke killed the person she loved and she had six years or so to plot revenge - no wonder she went nuts.
... I don't think Alain was a nutcase and in the end he did try to stand up to the chantry.

People would get hurt whether Hawke stops or aids Tahrone - the mages living under Meredith's thumb, who suffer from templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, or the templars and their recruits. I could see a pragmatic pro-mage Hawke making such a decision, if the narrative permitted meaningful choices that were carried out throughout all three Acts. It would have even been nice if Decimus wasn't a cartoon and was instead a sane mage who would either accept assistance from a pro-mage Hawke or fight a pro-templar Hawke.

And Alain unfortunately suffered nightly visits from the templars with the threat of being made tranquil if he tells anyone, based on what he explicitly says in Act II and what he implies in Act III. I wish Hawke could persuade him to run from Kirkwall, given what happens to him in the Circle. Alain didn't really stand up to the Chantry, but sided with Ser Thrask, as he admits in "Best Served Cold," and makes it clear it's because he wants to remove Meredith from power.

Alain was more and example of not insane mage who wasn't exactly happy with the situation - but yes he had to be convinced in a rather gruesome way, andd as I said, don't get me started on Decimus... That man have no brain what so ever, and because he attacks us we get on Grace bad side which Hawke pays for severly six?(Not sure) years later.

Tarohne's plan (minus the crazy) is a little to cynical for my act 1 Hawke, but during act 3... My Hawke might just have been able to see its strong point. It was definitly hurting the templars.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Alain was more and example of not insane mage who wasn't exactly happy with the situation - but yes he had to be convinced in a rather gruesome way, andd as I said, don't get me started on Decimus... That man have no brain what so ever, and because he attacks us we get on Grace bad side which Hawke pays for severly six?(Not sure) years later.

Tarohne's plan (minus the crazy) is a little to cynical for my act 1 Hawke, but during act 3... My Hawke might just have been able to see its strong point. It was definitly hurting the templars.

I suppose working with Ser Thrask would be a better option overall, since he wasn't a sadist or a genocidal maniac. He was a templar I liked, and one I wished wasn't killed off in a ridiculous quest (and once again, with Hawke standing by and doing nothing). Aside from Alain and Terrie, it seems like almost every mage from Starkhaven is an insane idiot - Decimus, Quentin (if Gascard's note in his mansion is to be believed), Grace...

[esper]

Yeah also there was an insane number of blood mages about them. Sometimes you would think they held blood magic classes in Starkhaven. ( I know many of them learned later, but...)

[jamesp81]

Ahh, yes Ser Kerras. What a complete piece of human trash. His grasping, controlling, sadistic manner rubs me exactly the wrong way. The only regret that I have is that I couldn't make him beg for his life before killing him.

[Sepewrath]

LobselVith8 wrote...
People would get hurt whether Hawke stops or aids Tahrone - the mages living under Meredith's thumb, who suffer from templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, or the templars and their recruits. I could see a pragmatic pro-mage Hawke making such a decision, if the narrative permitted meaningful choices that were carried out throughout all three Acts. It would have even been nice if Decimus wasn't a cartoon and was instead a sane mage who would either accept assistance from a pro-mage Hawke or fight a pro-templar Hawke.

I cant imagine Decimus would have made much of an ally, the Circle broke him, he would have been nothing but a shining example of why there cant be apostates. He was definitely better off dead.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

I don't deny Tarohne was crazy, but her idea was better than: Let myself get possessed and do random damage. She specific targeted the templars in a place where it hurt - their paranoia. seen from a stricly war-point of view is getting the enemy to fight amongst themself a good strategy. From an etchical view was what she did terrible, and my Hawke is relieved to get rid of her before too many more jumps on the mages-are-evil bandwagon.

I agree. I wish Tarohne wasn't insane (along with Decimus, Grace, and pretty much every mage who doesn't bend knee to the Chantry) because I would have liked Hawke to side with a plan to dismantle the Order of Templars from their seat of power over Kirkwall. Ethically speaking, I think an apostate Hawke could think that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

I think Tarohne should've stayed insane, but Hawke could've "That whole Templar thing was a good idea. Imperium 2.0 however, wasn't" (I'm conflicted on where I stand with the Templar possession thing. While a sound idea to demoralize them, there's no way to control the damage dealt. You may end up killing more good Templars than bad ones. you may end up killing mages too )

Even if she wasn't insane, I'd still kill her for wearing clown make-up. Plus there's still Idunna who can help in some way. Idunna could help by using her blood magic to only get secrets from the Templars and defend herself should they come after her, and could use regular magic to help an Apostate Hawke leading the Mage Underground, after Hawke either breaks her out of the Gallows or lets her go free, had those been an option.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 août 2011 - 12:01 .

[TEWR]

Sepewrath wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
People would get hurt whether Hawke stops or aids Tahrone - the mages living under Meredith's thumb, who suffer from templars like Ser Alrik and Ser Kerras, or the templars and their recruits. I could see a pragmatic pro-mage Hawke making such a decision, if the narrative permitted meaningful choices that were carried out throughout all three Acts. It would have even been nice if Decimus wasn't a cartoon and was instead a sane mage who would either accept assistance from a pro-mage Hawke or fight a pro-templar Hawke.

I cant imagine Decimus would have made much of an ally, the Circle broke him, he would have been nothing but a shining example of why there cant be apostates. He was definitely better off dead.

The Circle breaks most mages. It broke Malcolm. It broke Anders. It broke Ella. It broke Jowan. All four of them were able to be good apostates (well... pre-merging Anders. Afterwards it was really iffy.)

[Sepewrath]

I wouldn't consider any of them broken, well post merging Anders is, but that's more Justice than anything. Decimus' mind had clearly gone fishing, he had gone berserk, that didn't apply to any of those other mages you mentioned. Huon, maybe, but he might have just been crazy to begin with.