886 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Avernus simply said he nudged the thought process. He didn't outright control Teyrn Cousland. Simply made it so he would draw his own conclusions to aid in the rebellion against a tyrant. that is significantly more subtle than what Idunna did to Hawke.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And if *your* blood mage decides to manipulate you? THe one you have had trained, and trust to protect you? Who will watch him? ANOTHER blood mage?

A country-spanning conspiracy, implemented by all the nobles' pet blood mages? Cool beans.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

GodLikeDevil wrote...

Blood Magic should be regulated. Not banned, but regulated. It's a tool, a dangerous one, but still yet another way of doing magic. If you ban it, more people will be drawn to the forbidden, and the greater the likelihood that an undesirable will learn it and abuse it. So better to acknowledge it, research on it further, in order that it may be utilized, and its abuse curbed and monitored.

I do not think it is inherently evil, but it makes whoever uses it susceptible to corruption, hence my stance of it being regulated.

How exactly are you going to regulate someone, that can make you think everyhting is fine?

By being a bloodmage yourself. rogue bloodmages controlling kings and queens is inevitable you may as well train your own   bloodmages to counter it

And if *your* blood mage decides to manipulate you? THe one you have had trained, and trust to protect you? Who will watch him? ANOTHER blood mage? Yeah, better ban the practice completely and eradicate all knowledge of it.
And If the mind control of Teyrn Cousland was obvious don't you think someone would have noticed and NOT joinned the rebellion?

You want to prevent mind control? Give everyone a copy of the Litany of Adralla. Seeing as how anyone can use it (The Warden. Alistair. Sten. Morrigan. Wynne. Leliana. Zevran. Oghren. Shale. Dog?)

[Sepewrath]

You know the whole, protect yourself from a blood mage, by having your own blood mage, but what if they betray you thing is moot. Because Kings and such protect themselves from guys with swords and stuff, by giving other guys swords and stuff and telling them to stand next to them, its no different. And that practice still holds true today, just with guns. where they don't even have to be that close to you. The point is, your only suppose to have people around you, you can trust, no matter what they can do or what they have on them.

[TEWR]

A Dwarf and his Second. Lord Xanthos Aeducan and his Second Gorim Saelac. That is what people should strive for. Trust beyond mere roles. They are lifelong friends who ignore the difference in Caste.


EDIT: and with some people , if any mage is near a person, then any decision that person came to has to be the work of a blood mage just because that mage may have been a blood mage. Because you just can't trust them. They're not people after all, y'know?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 août 2011 - 12:50 .

[DPSSOC]

esper wrote...
Because my blood mage Hawke is a anti-templar, pro-mage fighter?

Ok but, while I"m not an expert on such things, it would seem the worst way to battle an organization intent on opressing you is justifying their reasons for doing so.  People like Idunna and Tarohne make the argument for imprisoning mages too easy.  Whenever someone asks why mages need to be locked up you can point at them and say, "That's why."  Sparing someone like Idunna would hurt your cause because the existence of such people, let alone your association with them, does nothing but erode outside support.

esper wrote...
And she wanted to kill us because we were getting too close to the truth, I think Hawke has the ability to kill for less than that.

Yes you can kill for less than that.  I don't, throughout the entire game I kill 1 person because "I was just following orders." and never again.  Everyone I kill was trying to kill me first.  The fact that you can be just as bad or worse than someone doesn't absolve them from guilt.  My mage Hawke could be just as bad or worse than Idunna, he chooses not to be.  Now if you in fact are worse than her then yes it alters the situation , but the possibility you could be doesn't.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I imagine mind control is a bit more obvious than how easy you make it out to be Emp.

Tarohne and friends were able to mind control an undisclosed number of Templars without anyone noticing until they disappeared.  I think it can be obvious like with Hawke where you're wielding it like a sledgehammer trying to smash through your target's defenses, but it can be a subtle thing as well. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
EDIT: Hand out copies of the Litany of Adralla to everyone. That's a good way to regulate blood magic.

Unless you have people reciting the Litany at random I don't see how this is going to help.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 12 août 2011 - 01:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Avernus simply said he nudged the thought process. He didn't outright control Teyrn Cousland. Simply made it so he would draw his own conclusions to aid in the rebellion against a tyrant. that is significantly more subtle than what Idunna did to Hawke.

Exactly. And it is infinitely more dangerous. What Idunna did to Hawke, Hawke was himself able to realize and break free from. What Avernus did to the Tyern, the Tyern didn't even realize, and it cost him his life, and caused a civil war, and the banishment of the Grey Wardens from Ferelden. All because of a blood mage. ONE blood mage.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sepewrath wrote...

You know the whole, protect yourself from a blood mage, by having your own blood mage, but what if they betray you thing is moot. Because Kings and such protect themselves from guys with swords and stuff, by giving other guys swords and stuff and telling them to stand next to them, its no different. And that practice still holds true today, just with guns. where they don't even have to be that close to you. The point is, your only suppose to have people around you, you can trust, no matter what they can do or what they have on them.

Dead is dead. But that is far from the point. A blood mage does not have to kill you, he can force you, without you ever realizing, to make decisions you wouldn't on your own. He can literally be your puppetmaster. A councillor can only go so far in manipulation, after that it must be a knife in the back.

And I doubt the Litany of Adralla is easy to replicate, if possible at all, or it would already have been done.

[dragonflight288]

Actually the rebellion never even started. It died at the Keep "...a still-birth" as told by the archivist. They were trying to gather support when King Arland's spies found their location and attacked before a rebellion even started. It was only Wardens verse the King's army.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

You know the whole, protect yourself from a blood mage, by having your own blood mage, but what if they betray you thing is moot. Because Kings and such protect themselves from guys with swords and stuff, by giving other guys swords and stuff and telling them to stand next to them, its no different. And that practice still holds true today, just with guns. where they don't even have to be that close to you. The point is, your only suppose to have people around you, you can trust, no matter what they can do or what they have on them.

Dead is dead. But that is far from the point. A blood mage does not have to kill you, he can force you, without you ever realizing, to make decisions you wouldn't on your own. He can literally be your puppetmaster. A councillor can only go so far in manipulation, after that it must be a knife in the back.

And I doubt the Litany of Adralla is easy to replicate, if possible at all, or it would already have been done.

Emperor ignorance is not a strenght in such matters. You need people that can identify rogue bloodmages and the only way to do so is being a bloodmage as they are the only ones who understand this type of magic. Also their are plenty of honourable people among the mages that will keep true to their mission. and with some peer revieuw you can have a well discplined taskforce that removes rogue bloodmages without succumbing to corruption.

[jamesp81]

Ok but, while I"m not an expert on such things, it would seem the worst
way to battle an organization intent on opressing you is justifying
their reasons for doing so.  People like Idunna and Tarohne make the
argument for imprisoning mages too easy.  Whenever someone asks why
mages need to be locked up you can point at them and say, "That's why."
 Sparing someone like Idunna would hurt your cause because the existence
of such people, let alone your association with them, does nothing but
erode outside support.

Playing by the rules only works if the other side also plays by the rules.  The templars don't.  So we devolve to the rule of those who survive and those who die, the only rule in war that can't be revoked by treaties or conventions.

With mages and templars it's come to the point that it's about those that survive and those that die.  Nothing more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

You know the whole, protect yourself from a blood mage, by having your own blood mage, but what if they betray you thing is moot. Because Kings and such protect themselves from guys with swords and stuff, by giving other guys swords and stuff and telling them to stand next to them, its no different. And that practice still holds true today, just with guns. where they don't even have to be that close to you. The point is, your only suppose to have people around you, you can trust, no matter what they can do or what they have on them.

Dead is dead. But that is far from the point. A blood mage does not have to kill you, he can force you, without you ever realizing, to make decisions you wouldn't on your own. He can literally be your puppetmaster. A councillor can only go so far in manipulation, after that it must be a knife in the back.

And I doubt the Litany of Adralla is easy to replicate, if possible at all, or it would already have been done.

Emperor ignorance is not a strenght in such matters. You need people that can identify rogue bloodmages and the only way to do so is being a bloodmage as they are the only ones who understand this type of magic. Also their are plenty of honourable people among the mages that will keep true to their mission. and with some peer revieuw you can have a well discplined taskforce that removes rogue bloodmages without succumbing to corruption.

The best manipulaters always appear honorable, and incapable of deciet. The man you trust the most, can easily be your worst enemy, when it comes to the game of power.

I'm sure there are honorable folk amongst the mages, and luckily enough, you don't need to be a blood mage to protect against it. Bethany breaks Idunna's hold over Hawke, and Bethany is most certainly not a blood mage.

[riveraeg]

This quick question might sway my opinion.

Are blood mages more likely to become abomination than "normal" mages?

I though that it was true by all the evidence in the game, very few blood mages can control daemons.

This is important because blood magic might increase the danger of the general population. But I think that question sums up my view on the whole situation.

[dragonflight288]

I wouldn't say blood mages are more or less likely to become abominations. Just more likely to attract the attention of demons and spirits. But if you have mages like Connor, untrained little children with barely any power whatsoever, but still be in positions of political power you can be far more likely than most enchanters to attract demons.

Gaider said that demons were attracted by the power of the mage. And that power isn't always magical. In Connor's case, it was political with him being the son of a powerful arl.

The Herriman's attracted a demon (which was already there) because Lady Herriman could have gotten that desire demon the control of two cities. Kirkwall and Starkhaven. The Desire Demon puts off Sebastian because at that moment, he didn't have the power to make a good deal to the demon. No mages needed there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I don't recall that DG quote, but if demons are truely attracted to power, of any kind, that is even more reason to keep mages out of all kinds of titles and positions of power.

[T3H Fish]

 Just thought I'd throw my 2 coppers into this topic.

I don't believe Blood Magic is evil or actually all that dangerous except to the person weilding it. It's just like any of the other magical schools, thought it is much more powerful in comparison to the others because it opens the cabaility of controlling others both mentally and physically as well as almost always being connected to demons. The drawback, of course, is that it uses the mage's life-force more than it does mana... except for in the case where scarifices are used.

I'm more inclined to believe that blood magic originated from the Elves of Arlathan, the practice of Vallaslin being among the last remnant of the Dalish elves' diminish knowledge of magic. The Imperium most likely learned it from this source and saw the possibilities of this power and abused and perverted its practice it to no end, eventually tying demons to the practice of blood magic, giving birth to the taboo and dangers that now hang around it. Not all blood mages are evil, but I think most that opt to use it out of desperation, fear, or thirst for power are unprepared (or willing) for the full responsibility Blood Magic requires and for the demons that are immediately attracted to any user.

• Jowan was a blood mage, yet he did not turn into an abomination from the start, though it is not clear if he contacted a demon to learn or he found some forbidden texts within the Ferelden Circle of Magi from which to study and practice.
• Alain practiced blood magic, though he seemed to understand what it was he was doing and acted responsibly in the light that both of his teachers succumbed to the thrall of power and demons.
• Merril was naive to the dangers she faced, even though the demon she sought help from was imprisoned and posed no immediate threat to her. Unfortunately what she thought was doing good ending up causing her a great deal of grief in the end

Sadly, the majority of all the other blood mages that have appeared throughout the series, aside from the Warden and Hawke, have turned completely evil. Some turned to blood magic for power, like in the case of the Tevinters and the maleficar presence growing in Kirkwall to overthrow Meredith. In other cases, it's used as a final act of desperation with very dire and fatal consequences, like with Orsino when he turns himself into a Harvester, having given up on enduring Meredith's purge.

Also wanted to say that blood magic is always associate with Abominations. There have been instances that Abominations are created without the use of blood magic, so being a mage in and of itself is dangerous. Blood Magic, more than anything I think, makes the user a more likely target for possession just by using it, regardless if intentions are good, bad, or made in desperation.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall that DG quote, but if demons are truely attracted to power, of any kind, that is even more reason to keep mages out of all kinds of titles and positions of power.

It was actually John Epler

John Epler wrote...

I'd say that Connor was in a position where, while not necessarily powerful magically, he was in such a place in Redcliffe that he provided easy access to the halls of power. The Desire Demon knew this (and that, because of the way mages are usually treated with being carted off to the Circle as quickly as they're discovered, it was a unique opportunity) and took advantage of it.

Thus why I think the distinction needs to be made between 'level of magic power' and 'level of power', insofar as the latter provides the person with access to the machinery that they'd need to exert influence.

And I agree with you. It isn't a good idea for a mage to hold a position of power, assuming of course they are constantly bothered by demons like the Chantry claims. Personally, I have my doubts.

But they should at least have more rights and more freedom, while keeping the Templars under the authority of the king/queen/emperor/whatever and make the Circle a boarding school. And improve the methodology of the Harrowing.

And do anatomical study.

basically, a lot needs to be changed. Definitely don't give mages total freedom with no oversight whatsoever.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 août 2011 - 01:21 .

[Sepewrath]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Dead is dead. But that is far from the point. A blood mage does not have to kill you, he can force you, without you ever realizing, to make decisions you wouldn't on your own. He can literally be your puppetmaster. A councillor can only go so far in manipulation, after that it must be a knife in the back.

And I doubt the Litany of Adralla is easy to replicate, if possible at all, or it would already have been done.

Well if the King decides to declare it cookie day and starts running around in his underwear, suspicions will rise. Of course those examples are jokes, but when your controlling someones actions, its as obvious as a knife sticking out their back. You saw when Huon was controlling his wife, she went blank and saw Hawke trying to fight the control, blood magic lacks the subtlety to control someone where its unnoticeable.

Even if it could, a King should have people around them that would be able to tell they are behaving out of character and even if the King is just on drugs or something, Blood Mage is going to be suspect numero uno. I think that would be the biggest problem with having a blood mage in court, not that they may control the ruler, but anything out the ordinary would automatically dumped on them.

[DPSSOC]

[quote]jamesp81 wrote...

[quote]Ok but, while I"m not an expert on such things, it would seem the worst
way to battle an organization intent on opressing you is justifying
their reasons for doing so.  People like Idunna and Tarohne make the
argument for imprisoning mages too easy.  Whenever someone asks why
mages need to be locked up you can point at them and say, "That's why."
 Sparing someone like Idunna would hurt your cause because the existence
of such people, let alone your association with them, does nothing but
erode outside support.[/quote]

Playing by the rules only works if the other side also plays by the rules.  The templars don't.  So we devolve to the rule of those who survive and those who die, the only rule in war that can't be revoked by treaties or conventions.[/quote]

I wasn't advocating playing by the rules, by all means use Blood Magic, I was simply suggesting you might want to avoid using it in such a way as to eliminate any and all highground you hope to stand on.

Example; Blood Mages who use their own blood to fuel and amplify their abilities to tear through Templars works.  Aside from the choice of powersource they're not doing anything they couldn't do otherwise (lyrium could amplify their powers just as much and they're not using any spells that can't be done by every other mage.  Furthermore the fact that no one beyond the intended targets are being hurt for the spell (you're not using other people's blood) raises the Blood Mage above expectations.

Blood Mages who control people's minds for the purpose of possessing them with a demon and carry an entourage of sacrifices with them doesn't.  You're doing nothing but solidifying Blood Magic as an evil thing and the fact that you're willing to resort to such tactics only speaks ill of you.

Now even if your intent is to set up a mageocracy where the normal people live crushed  under your thumb gaining support through positive PR is still useful, it makes the fight against the Templars easier as well as your rise to power; you can convince people to give you power then scheme for more rather than having to fight everyone and declare yourself king of the mountain.

With mages and templars it's come to the point that it's about those that survive and those that die.  Nothing more.
[/quote]

Modifié par DPSSOC, 13 août 2011 - 01:47 .

[The Baconer]

riveraeg wrote...

This quick question might sway my opinion.

Are blood mages more likely to become abomination than "normal" mages?

I though that it was true by all the evidence in the game, very few blood mages can control daemons.

This is important because blood magic might increase the danger of the general population. But I think that question sums up my view on the whole situation.

Depends. First, learning it may or may not require bargaining with demons. Past that, on paper it would be the safest type of magic. Regular magic (cast through a person's 'mana') draws its power from the fade. Blood Magic draws from a completely earthly source. It's the only type of magic that doesn't call for any interaction with the fade at all.

However, blood magic is also the most effecient way to evoke spirits through the veil, which is why it's so popular with summoning demons and the like. You just get more bang for your buck when you use blood over mana or lyrium. So in short, it depends on the mage. If they'd rather stick to using Blood Magic's base powers or using blood to fuel conventional spells, then a Blood Mage would be the safest proffession if avoiding demons was your thing. If you're a fan of building your own army of pet demons then it's probably not going to end well.

If you're worried about walking time-bombs, you should probably be paying more attention to Spirit Mages.

[Shadow Fox]

DPSSOC wrote...

esper wrote...
About Idunna is there anyway to not send her to the templars or kill her? I can't find a let her go option which I really wish there were.

Forgive me it's early but WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?  She was complicit in the murder of how many people, she was going  to kill you, your friends, the lady who shows you the books, and for what?  Not to keep herself safe or ensure her freedom, but as part of some demented plan to raise another Imperium.  And you honestly want to let her go?  You are sitting in a room with an unrepentant murderer who just tried to make you their next victim and you're seriously thinking about letting them go?

But it's okay because she was killing EVIL Templars!

[Rifneno]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

esper wrote...
About Idunna is there anyway to not send her to the templars or kill her? I can't find a let her go option which I really wish there were.

Forgive me it's early but WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?  She was complicit in the murder of how many people, she was going  to kill you, your friends, the lady who shows you the books, and for what?  Not to keep herself safe or ensure her freedom, but as part of some demented plan to raise another Imperium.  And you honestly want to let her go?  You are sitting in a room with an unrepentant murderer who just tried to make you their next victim and you're seriously thinking about letting them go?

But it's okay because she was killing EVIL Templars!

"You jest, but it's the truth! :(" - Grand Wizard Elthina

[dragonflight288]

It was actually John Epler

Oh. My bad. *rubs back of head anime style awkwardly*

My point still stands though. Blood magic in and of itself does not increase the risks of demonic possession. An incredibly powerful mage who has influence and charisma would be a much larger target, like the mage Warden and Hawke. The standard mages living as village healers....nowhere near as big a target to the powerful demons of the fade.

[Xilizhra]

I'd actually support Tarohne if she wasn't quite so hit by the crazies, if she wasn't likely being mind controlled by Xebenkeck, if her targets were templars who actually had had the time to do anything bad...

[dragonflight288]

One of her victims Karan supports the mages in Act 3, and openly rebels against Meredith by quitting the templars and works as a mercenary. At least he did in my game.