886 réponses à ce sujet

[Gespenst]

Also isn't it a bit odd that Templars kill blood mages but they use phylacteries...

[Sinaxi]

Neminea wrote...

For as far as I can tell, you can only do Blood magic if you made a pact with a demon.
- Anders says so in banter with Fenris
- Your warden in Da:O unlocks it by making a deal with a demon. Imo making other party members blood mages is part of the game mechanics, not the story canon
- Even Merrill admits she had to make a pact with a demon to do it

While the magic itself may or may not be evil in and of itself, the way to get it certainly is. Demons are evil, no matter how you turn it. Ergo in my opinion, the use of blood magic is evil.

He also asks Merrill if she cut herself accidentally and realized its power.

I view blood magic a lot like healing, spirit healers to be exact. Any random mage can generally heal minor wounds, Spirit Healers however augment their powers by using Spirits - they have to be careful and also have a greater vigilance against demons because they are so routinely summoning Spirit's aid from the Fade which also attracts demons to them.

I see Blood Magic the same way, you could perhaps use minor blood magic spells just like you can with healing, since Anders asks Merrill if she just realized the power behind it one day after cutting herself...but in order to fully command the power of Blood Magic (like a Spirit Healer fully commands healing abilities) you would need to summon demons/make a deal with a demon. The blood is just basically the "mana" part of the spell in a way but in order to really master all the abilities/talents you have to deal with demons.

[macrocarl]

Xilizhra wrote...

In DA2 it always seems to turns out badly. Which kind of makes sense for Hawke if you play the character of a blood mage.

Why so?

Because you can tie all the bad stuff that happens around Hawke since hitting Kirkwall because of  his/ her repeated use of blood magic. Well that's what I was thinking roll playing wise!  

[Neminea]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders also says that you can become one accidentally in banter with Merrill, remember.

I kinda assumed he was being sarcastic, could be wrong though

Modifié par Neminea, 20 août 2011 - 02:49 .

[IanPolaris]

Tidra wrote...

Neminea wrote...

For as far as I can tell, you can only do Blood magic if you made a pact with a demon.
- Anders says so in banter with Fenris
- Your warden in Da:O unlocks it by making a deal with a demon. Imo making other party members blood mages is part of the game mechanics, not the story canon
- Even Merrill admits she had to make a pact with a demon to do it

While the magic itself may or may not be evil in and of itself, the way to get it certainly is. Demons are evil, no matter how you turn it. Ergo in my opinion, the use of blood magic is evil.

He also asks Merrill if she cut herself accidentally and realized its power.

I view blood magic a lot like healing, spirit healers to be exact. Any random mage can generally heal minor wounds, Spirit Healers however augment their powers by using Spirits - they have to be careful and also have a greater vigilance against demons because they are so routinely summoning Spirit's aid from the Fade which also attracts demons to them.

I see Blood Magic the same way, you could perhaps use minor blood magic spells just like you can with healing, since Anders asks Merrill if she just realized the power behind it one day after cutting herself...but in order to fully command the power of Blood Magic (like a Spirit Healer fully commands healing abilities) you would need to summon demons/make a deal with a demon. The blood is just basically the "mana" part of the spell in a way but in order to really master all the abilities/talents you have to deal with demons.

That's interesting except you don't have to make a deal with a demon to do bloodmagic or to learn it.  I thought we've been through this.

I think Bloodmagic is the "Machine Gun" of magic.  That is, it's dangerous, powerful, and therefore very corrupting because of the power it offers the practicitioner.  I think it's this power that attacts demons, not bloodmagic per se (and in modern times the fact that bloodmages are engaging in the forbidden which means they are likely desperate...something demons look for).  However, I don't think bloodmagic is inherently any different than any other school of magic.

-Polaris

[Neminea]

In later banter between Fenris and Anders Anders says you have to look a demon in the eye to be able to do blood magic, hence why I think his previous banter with Merrill was either sarcastic (to get her to tell how/why) or indeed wishfull thinking.

Maybe I just have a different definition of Blood magic. I think that is the magic the demons teach. While you can use blood as component for magic, it wouldn't count as actual blood magic unless demons are involved. But that is just my opinion.

[TEWR]

macrocarl wrote...

By the way, off topic, just stubbed my toe about half an hour ago. My microwaved popcorn attacked me. Coincidence?

Your popcorn is seeking to spread subversion against the Chantry!

[Neminea]

Gespenst wrote...

Also isn't it a bit odd that Templars kill blood mages but they use phylacteries...

I am still not sure about phylacteries. Wouldn't you need to be an actual mage to do any sort of magic, how would the tracking even work if your a templar?

[Sinaxi]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tidra wrote...

Neminea wrote...

For as far as I can tell, you can only do Blood magic if you made a pact with a demon.
- Anders says so in banter with Fenris
- Your warden in Da:O unlocks it by making a deal with a demon. Imo making other party members blood mages is part of the game mechanics, not the story canon
- Even Merrill admits she had to make a pact with a demon to do it

While the magic itself may or may not be evil in and of itself, the way to get it certainly is. Demons are evil, no matter how you turn it. Ergo in my opinion, the use of blood magic is evil.

He also asks Merrill if she cut herself accidentally and realized its power.

I view blood magic a lot like healing, spirit healers to be exact. Any random mage can generally heal minor wounds, Spirit Healers however augment their powers by using Spirits - they have to be careful and also have a greater vigilance against demons because they are so routinely summoning Spirit's aid from the Fade which also attracts demons to them.

I see Blood Magic the same way, you could perhaps use minor blood magic spells just like you can with healing, since Anders asks Merrill if she just realized the power behind it one day after cutting herself...but in order to fully command the power of Blood Magic (like a Spirit Healer fully commands healing abilities) you would need to summon demons/make a deal with a demon. The blood is just basically the "mana" part of the spell in a way but in order to really master all the abilities/talents you have to deal with demons.

That's interesting except you don't have to make a deal with a demon to do bloodmagic or to learn it.  I thought we've been through this.

I think Bloodmagic is the "Machine Gun" of magic.  That is, it's dangerous, powerful, and therefore very corrupting because of the power it offers the practicitioner.  I think it's this power that attacts demons, not bloodmagic per se (and in modern times the fact that bloodmages are engaging in the forbidden which means they are likely desperate...something demons look for).  However, I don't think bloodmagic is inherently any different than any other school of magic.

-Polaris

And, where, pray tell did I ever say you had to "make a deal with a demon" to DO blood magic or learn it? I said, TO AUGMENT the power you more than likely have to deal with a demon, and this was simply a theory of my own. I never once said that you can't learn it unless you converse with a demon.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

macrocarl wrote...

By the way, off topic, just stubbed my toe about half an hour ago. My microwaved popcorn attacked me. Coincidence?

If your toe starts glowing purple or red, or starts spewing out demonic entities, I'd skip the peroxide and bandaids.

[IanPolaris]

Tidra wrote...

And, where, pray tell did I ever say you had to "make a deal with a demon" to DO blood magic or learn it? I said, TO AUGMENT the power you more than likely have to deal with a demon, and this was simply a theory of my own. I never once said that you can't learn it unless you converse with a demon.

There is no evidence of this either.

-Polaris

[Gespenst]

Neminea wrote...

I am still not sure about phylacteries. Wouldn't you need to be an actual mage to do any sort of magic, how would the tracking even work if your a templar?

I imagine there's magic involved in their creation but I think the phylacteries glow when they are near the mage they belong to - so the Templar has to follow mundane clues to track the apostate but they know when they are getting closer by the reaction of the phylactery... it'd probably be easier if they pointed the way like they were drawn to the mage...

Modifié par Gespenst, 20 août 2011 - 03:03 .

[IanPolaris]

Gespenst wrote...

Neminea wrote...

I am still not sure about phylacteries. Wouldn't you need to be an actual mage to do any sort of magic, how would the tracking even work if your a templar?

I imagine there's magic involved in their creation but I think the phylacteries glow when they are near the mage they belong to - so the Templar has to follow mundane clues to track the apostate but they know when they are getting closer by the reaction of the phylactery... it'd probably be easier if they pointed the way like they were drawn to the mage...

Either that, or it gives an image in the holder's mind of the mage's location or perhaps even both.  In short they probably act like magic-GPS devices.  You need bloodmagic to make them but not use them.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

Neminea wrote...

Gespenst wrote...

Also isn't it a bit odd that Templars kill blood mages but they use phylacteries...

I am still not sure about phylacteries. Wouldn't you need to be an actual mage to do any sort of magic, how would the tracking even work if your a templar?

A phylactery glows when it's near the mage the blood belonged to. It's ironic how the Chantry frowns on blood magic and yet they use phylacteries which are a form of blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

I am still not sure about phylacteries. Wouldn't you need to be an actual mage to do any sort of magic, how would the tracking even work if your a templar?

In Witch Hunt, when Finn needs a Dalish Elf's blood to find the Lights of Arlathan, the warden can ask if it's blood magic. Finn responds that technically it isn't because the blood isn't fueling the spell...merely a component of it. It's a grey area he concluded.

The Phylacteries use the blood of the mage as a component...if not outright fuel whatever the templars do to use that blood to track down the mages. David Gaider said it can be viewed as blood magic. It's also a grey area.

And the Grey Wardens use blood magic for their joining ritual. The Disciples of Andraste in Haven use blood magic to make Reavers, by drinking the dragon's blood. That's considered blood magic because it physically changes the drinker.

So a warrior learning to be a reaver must undergo a blood magic ritual to gain their abilities, same as the grey wardens. Being a mage is not necessary.

Also, I don't think the magical power of the mage is a huge factor in attracting demons. Take Connor for example. He could barely even cast a minor spell, a small child. But because he was the son of a powerful arl, the political power attracted a powerful desire demon, who could easily reach out to Connor through the Fade. Blood magic was not needed there.

Ultimately, my own opinion is that blood magic is not such a big threat as the most ardent blood magic haters say it is, nor is it as harmless as its most determined defenders. It has risks in using, because its power potentially gives mages control over people's minds.

But if you give a child a dagger without him learning all the risks of the pointy end, that could also potentially end in disaster.

[TEWR]

It's funny.... the glass phylacteries that bound the Revenants are more than likely blood magic, and the Arcane Warrior bound his essence into a phylactery due to someone attacking them. Something tells me the people that attacked the Arcane Warriors and everyone else was the Chantry, and they took the knowledge of phylacteries with them.

[dragonflight288]

Wouldn't surprise me one bit.

[Sinaxi]

IanPolaris wrote...

Tidra wrote...

And, where, pray tell did I ever say you had to "make a deal with a demon" to DO blood magic or learn it? I said, TO AUGMENT the power you more than likely have to deal with a demon, and this was simply a theory of my own. I never once said that you can't learn it unless you converse with a demon.

There is no evidence of this either.

-Polaris

Congratulations on ignoring the part where I said this was simply a theory.

[IanPolaris]

Tidra wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Tidra wrote...

And, where, pray tell did I ever say you had to "make a deal with a demon" to DO blood magic or learn it? I said, TO AUGMENT the power you more than likely have to deal with a demon, and this was simply a theory of my own. I never once said that you can't learn it unless you converse with a demon.

There is no evidence of this either.

-Polaris

Congratulations on ignoring the part where I said this was simply a theory.

I'm not ignoring it.  I'm saying that your hypothesis is coming from left field because there isn't any evidence or indication of it in the game lore.

-Polaris

[TEWR]

The Arcane Warrior is only able to say that a "terrible presence" is what killed the humans and elves that lived in the ruins, but can't recall what exactly it was. So, the Chantry could theoretically be this "terrible presence".

Oddly enough, those same ruins look Tevinter in origin. Perhaps elves didn't lose their immortality because of humans (assuming they were immortal)? Perhaps something else caused them to lose their immortality.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 03:15 .

[dragonflight288]

Until we have more evidence from within the game or from the writers, I'll stick with dalish lore and the scrap full of information we can glean from the codex entries.

[Gespenst]

dragonflight288 wrote...

But if you give a child a dagger without him learning all the risks of the pointy end, that could also potentially end in disaster.

I'm reminded of that one thing the Arishok says


Hawke: ...[Gaatlok] could benefit many people.
Arishok: It does now. Just as swords benefit warriors but are not given to children... well your children.

[TEWR]

Gespenst wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

But if you give a child a dagger without him learning all the risks of the pointy end, that could also potentially end in disaster.

I'm reminded of that one thing the Arishok says


Hawke: ...[Gaatlok] could benefit many people.
Arishok: It does now. Just as swords benefit warriors but are not given to children... well your children.

That's part of their society. If you're meant to be a soldier, you're trained to be one and are given knowledge of how to use the weapons, along with strategy and anything else a soldier needs to know.

[Carmen_Willow]

I am neutral on blood magic until the part where you suck your friends dry to stay alive and keep slinging spells. Oh, and that part about mind controlling. Not happy about that one. Haven't needed to use it. Why bother when I can kick butt and take names without it.

[dragonflight288]

My favorite personal argument for using blood magic is fighting the arishok. Run out of mana, use blood magic until enough mana recharges, stop using blood magic, heal myself, and repeat until I'm out of mana again.