886 réponses à ce sujet

[Gespenst]

I'm pretty sure all forms of magic pale in comparison to force magic anyway. Sure the elementalists can sling fire across the battlefield but the force mage can manipulate gravity at a whim. I can't even begin to imagine the implications. I hope they keep FM in DA3 and - if possible - expand on it...

Say... Gravitic Shield
Sustained Ability
Upkeep 10% Mana
All projectiles are pulled to a point seven feet to your left

Or something. And since Bethany and Mage Hawke are the only ones that use it (that I know of) it looks like it's a school of magic that Malcolm Hawke invented himself. He's just that much of a bad***.

Modifié par Gespenst, 20 août 2011 - 04:27 .

[TEWR]

Force Magic is the primary magic taught at Kirkwall's circle.


Force mages are a fearsome sight on the battlefield, bending the laws of nature to crush, toss, and debilitate their foes. Kirkwall's Circle houses a higher-than-usual percentage of mages who excel at this specialization, and their combined research has refined the school considerably.


All mage specializations manipulate energy, but Force Mages revel in it. A specialization popular in Kirkwall, they focus only on the raw application of magic, in all its vicious glory—maelstroms that draw opponents, ethereal weight that crush and slow, or great waves that throw enemies about like ragdolls. Targets not to be toyed with are simply slammed into the ground, as though pummeled by a great fist. And in their mastery of such damage, Force Mages can make themselves all but immune to similar attacks, an ability that hints at the true discipline they must maintain. After all, unsubtle doesn’t mean unsophisticated—the Force Mage specialization requires uncommon precision to keep such overwhelming power under control.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 04:43 .

[Urzon]

Gespenst wrote...

I'm pretty sure all forms of magic pale in comparison to force magic anyway. Sure the elementalists can sling fire across the battlefield but the force mage can manipulate gravity at a whim. I can't even begin to imagine the implications. I hope they keep FM in DA3 and - if possible - expand on it...

Say... Gravitic Shield
Sustained Ability
Upkeep 10% Mana
All projectiles are pulled to a point seven feet to your left

Or something. And since Bethany and Mage Hawke are the only ones that use it (that I know of) it looks like it's a school of magic that Malcolm Hawke invented himself. He's just that much of a bad***.

Malcolm didn't invent it.

Sure, you dont see any of mages use it from what i can tell. If you read the info on the class though, it says that Kirkwall mages are famous for it. It seems to be a hard form of magic to learn, and the mages of Kirkwall have an easier time learning it. I'm guessing that somehow relates to the thin Veil in the area.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

Gespenst wrote...

I'm pretty sure all forms of magic pale in comparison to force magic anyway. Sure the elementalists can sling fire across the battlefield but the force mage can manipulate gravity at a whim. I can't even begin to imagine the implications. I hope they keep FM in DA3 and - if possible - expand on it...

Say... Gravitic Shield
Sustained Ability
Upkeep 10% Mana
All projectiles are pulled to a point seven feet to your left

Or something. And since Bethany and Mage Hawke are the only ones that use it (that I know of) it looks like it's a school of magic that Malcolm Hawke invented himself. He's just that much of a bad***.

Malcolm didn't invent it.

Sure, you dont see any of mages use it from what i can tell. If you read the info on the class though, it says that Kirkwall mages are famous for it. It seems to be a hard form of magic to learn, and the mages of Kirkwall have an easier time learning it. I'm guessing that somehow relates to the thin Veil in the area.

No. the Thin Veil is due to the blood magic the Tevinters performed underneath the city.

Force Magic exists outside of Kirkwall, but Kirkwall is famous for doing much research on the school and refining it.

[Urzon]

No. the Thin Veil is due to the blood magic the Tevinters performed underneath the city.

Force Magic exists outside of Kirkwall, but Kirkwall is famous for doing much research on the school and refining it.

I know. I was saying that the thin Veil might make it somewhat easier for mages to learn certain schools of magic. An unknown happy byproduct from the death of thousands of slaves a thousand years ago, if you will.

[TEWR]

Urzon wrote...

No. the Thin Veil is due to the blood magic the Tevinters performed underneath the city.

Force Magic exists outside of Kirkwall, but Kirkwall is famous for doing much research on the school and refining it.

I know. I was saying that the thin Veil might make it somewhat easier for mages to learn certain schools of magic. An unknown happy byproduct from the death of thousands of slaves a thousand years ago, if you will.

Force Magic is a normal, Circle sanctioned school like any other. The thin Veil doesn't have anything to do with it, since it's also practiced elsewhere in Thedas. Kirkwall just enjoys the school more than other people and they made it their primary school of magic to teach new students.

[Urzon]

Force Magic is a normal, Circle sanctioned school like any other. The thin Veil doesn't have anything to do with it, since it's also practiced elsewhere in Thedas. Kirkwall just enjoys the school more than other people and they made it their primary school of magic to teach new students.

*sigh*

I know it is practiced everywhere, and its a regular school of magic.

"Kirkwall's Circle houses a higher-than-usual percentage of mages who excel at this specialization,"

I was making the point; that maybe the thin Veil in the area made it so the mages learn certain schools of magic easier than at the other Circles. Other than turning people insane it seems, we don't know all the effects of a thin Veil could have on mages overtime.

"and their combined research has refined the school considerably. "

Since so many mages have such an easier time learning the Force school, they were able to study it alot easier than the other Circles. Therefore, they could refine the Force school into what it today, and make it they principal school of magic for the Kirkwall Circle.

Modifié par Urzon, 20 août 2011 - 05:07 .

[Gespenst]

Oh, I must have missed that description somehow.

^ Why is that more likely than "they just like it quite a lot"? What makes you think that living in an area where the Veil is thin would have that kind of effect?

[The Baconer]

Neminea wrote...
Maybe I just have a different definition of Blood magic. I think that is the magic the demons teach. While you can use blood as component for magic, it wouldn't count as actual blood magic unless demons are involved. But that is just my opinion.

Part of the point of Blood Magic is that it's the only form of magic that doesn't require any interaction with the fade.

[Neminea]

Blood magic according to the wiki:

In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination.


Of course it's a wiki, so I am never sure how valid it is.

[Xilizhra]

Not. Unless you expect Hawke called up some demon to teach her blood magic.

[Neminea]

Or the fact that Hawke can be a blood mage is a game mechanic, and not part of the lore since my last mage was a blood mage and non of my anti-bloodmagic compagnions ever commented on it, nor any of the npc's

[Xilizhra]

Notice too that Anders in Awakening does comment on it without mentioning demons.

[Neminea]

Also a game mechanic imo, since you unlock blood magic from a demon in Da:O. The books don't count, I think they only put that in because people wanted to have everything unlocked, not because it has any lore value.
Anders mentioning it felt like a bit of a joke to me. Besides, my anders was a blood mage and I imported that game into da2 and there is no mention of it.

[TEWR]

Neminea wrote...

Blood magic according to the wiki:

In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination.


Of course it's a wiki, so I am never sure how valid it is.

The reason why you have to contact a demon is because the Chantry has banned blood magic and quite possibly burned anything that deals with how to learn it. Because the demons know much of the arcane, they are now almost always the ones who must be dealt with because their memories are forever.

That doesn't change the fact that blood magic is still tied to the physical and not the spiritual. I think that the only reason a person has a higher chance of becoming an abomination if they use blood magic is due to sheer arrogance and letting their guard down.

Look at Avernus. He was trapped in a fortress for centuries with demons and corpses all around, and he isn't possessed.

[Xilizhra]

Neminea wrote...

Also a game mechanic imo, since you unlock blood magic from a demon in Da:O. The books don't count, I think they only put that in because people wanted to have everything unlocked, not because it has any lore value.
Anders mentioning it felt like a bit of a joke to me. Besides, my anders was a blood mage and I imported that game into da2 and there is no mention of it.

Probably Justice made him stop doing it. And even if you refuse to accept that, there's Jowan.

[IanPolaris]

Neminea wrote...

Blood magic according to the wiki:

In the contemporary world, blood magic is described as being one of the more "sinister" types of magic. Blood magic is the magical practice of using blood, life itself, as a potent fuel for magical spells. This life may be supplied by the mage, or by willing or unwilling sacrifices. It lets the mage control the minds of others as well as use their very own life force to fuel their power. This practice is so rare in Thedas now that it can now only be learned from contacting a demon, with the risk of becoming an abomination.


Of course it's a wiki, so I am never sure how valid it is.

Invalidated by in game Lore.  Jowan never did deals with demons (he certainly would have been abomination bait had he tried) but he was a bloodmage. (Presumably he learned it from the books in the Fereldan Circle Library).

More explicitly, if you are a Warden Bloodmage, you can give Anders the Bloodmagic specialization, and then in the game Anders comments on you teaching it to him (when he says that the Templars would call him a bloodmage anyway eventually and kill him true or not, and you say, 'but you are a malificar', and he says, "now I am and don't think the irony has escaped me").

Thus we have at least one case in game canon where bloodmagic is taught sans demon.

In terms of Hawke, if you pick the bloodmagic specialization, Merrill probably taught you.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Neminea wrote...

Also a game mechanic imo, since you unlock blood magic from a demon in Da:O. The books don't count, I think they only put that in because people wanted to have everything unlocked, not because it has any lore value.
Anders mentioning it felt like a bit of a joke to me. Besides, my anders was a blood mage and I imported that game into da2 and there is no mention of it.

YOU do (but you don't have to make a deal with a demon; you can force the demon to give you that knowledge in exchange for it's life) but that's clearly not universally true in DAO.  Jowan and many others in the Fereldan circle were taught using books and teachers the old fashioned way and there is the DAA scene I mentioned before.

You don't need a demon to learn bloodmagic.  It's simply by far the easiest way since all other avenues are fraught with peril since bloodmagic is forbidden.

-Polaris

[Neminea]

As far as I can tell, we only have Jowans word that he never delt with demons.
No matter how you turn it, there are both in game references that it is demon only and also that it isn't. You can't really discuss either way as fact, only opinions.
I tend to believe that blood magic comes from demons, because to me, all the references that it isn't is either too intertwined with your own character (ergo imo game mechanics) or based on what a single character says about it (jowan, which I don't trust). Compared to several characters stating it comes from a demon (Merrill, Anders, codexes).

As I said, I don't know the validity of the wiki, but I have not seen fullout proof that it isn't valid as of yet.

From the same wiki page btw:
While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption.

Modifié par Neminea, 20 août 2011 - 05:15 .

[IanPolaris]

Neminea wrote...

As far as I can tell, we only have Jowans word that he never delt with demons.
No matter how you turn it, there are both in game references that it is demon only and also that it isn't. You can't really discuss either way as fact, only opinions.
I tend to believe that blood magic comes from demons, because to me, all the references that it isn't is either too intertwined with your own character (ergo imo game mechanics) or based on what a single character says about it (jowan, which I don't trust). Compared to several characters stating it comes from a demon (Merrill, Anders, codexes).

As I said, I don't know the validity of the wiki, but I have not seen fullout proof that it isn't valid as of yet.

From the same wiki page btw:
While not inherently evil, the Chantry strictly forbids the usage of blood magic as it supposedly eventually leads to corruption.

Actually the game lore is contradictory because we are told by Avernus that Bloodmagic does originate with demons.  {However that does not imply you have to learn it from a demon.}  But there are other equally good references that say that Dumat, the Old God of Silence first taught humans bloodmagic, and the Dalish believe that humans learned Bloodmagic from the Ancient Elves (and we know that the ancient elves did use bloodmagic because we see an Ancient Elven Phlyactery).

The wiki is just not a reliable source.  I'd delve into the game lore itself.  Just saying.

-Polaris

[Neminea]

So it's still just a matter of who to believe. No amount of trying to see past the terribly lag that Da1 for some reason causes on my computer is going to make that any clearer. In the mean time I'll stick to what I do know.

[Time4Tiddy]

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you. Possibly if Jowan had been a full companion as originally intended he would have taught the specialization.

Also, in DA2, Orsino practices blood magic purely from studying the research of Quentin. In both endings he claims it's the first time he's ever used blood magic, and in the mage ending he says he's putting Quentin's research to use.

[TEWR]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you. Possibly if Jowan had been a full companion as originally intended he would have taught the specialization.

Also, in DA2, Orsino practices blood magic purely from studying the research of Quentin. In both endings he claims it's the first time he's ever used blood magic, and in the mage ending he says he's putting Quentin's research to use.

I'm wondering if Uldred set Jowan up with those books. Uldred was able to easily identify apprentices and mages that practiced blood magic because he was one himself, which is something Irving was unable to realize. Was it ever stated who the witness was that saw Jowan practicing blood magic? 

[IanPolaris]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you. Possibly if Jowan had been a full companion as originally intended he would have taught the specialization.

Also, in DA2, Orsino practices blood magic purely from studying the research of Quentin. In both endings he claims it's the first time he's ever used blood magic, and in the mage ending he says he's putting Quentin's research to use.

I'm wondering if Uldred set Jowan up with those books. Uldred was able to easily identify apprentices and mages that practiced blood magic because he was one himself, which is something Irving was unable to realize. Was it ever stated who the witness was that saw Jowan practicing blood magic? 

No.  The witness is never named, but I am fairly sure (75% sure) it was Uldred.  I think Uldred taught a number of mages bloodmagic and then ratted out a few that he didn't like (or thought were weak) to make himself look good.  Read Irving's notes in his office!  He outright says he used Uldred to ferret out would-be bloodmages.

Ooops......

-Polaris

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you. Possibly if Jowan had been a full companion as originally intended he would have taught the specialization.

Also, in DA2, Orsino practices blood magic purely from studying the research of Quentin. In both endings he claims it's the first time he's ever used blood magic, and in the mage ending he says he's putting Quentin's research to use.

I'm wondering if Uldred set Jowan up with those books. Uldred was able to easily identify apprentices and mages that practiced blood magic because he was one himself, which is something Irving was unable to realize. Was it ever stated who the witness was that saw Jowan practicing blood magic? 

No.  The witness is never named, but I am fairly sure (75% sure) it was Uldred.  I think Uldred taught a number of mages bloodmagic and then ratted out a few that he didn't like (or thought were weak) to make himself look good.  Read Irving's notes in his office!  He outright says he used Uldred to ferret out would-be bloodmages.

Ooops......

-Polaris

I know Irving wrote notes about Uldred being able to identify blood mages and Irving being unable to realize that Uldred was a blood mage. I mentioned that up in my post

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 08:27 .