886 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you.

And all sources we've seen of blood magic, including scrolls which are meant to teach blood magic to individuals, essentially tell somebody to contact demons and submit yourself to them or subdue them.

[Giggles_Manically]

You can learn it from a tome in Awakening.
Anders seems to hint in one banter that you can just cut yourself and do blood magic on accident.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you.

And all sources we've seen of blood magic, including scrolls which are meant to teach blood magic to individuals, essentially tell somebody to contact demons and submit yourself to them or subdue them.

But is that due to demons being the sole way to learn blood magic? Or is it due to demons being the only way to learn it since the Chantry banned, and more than likely burned, anything that teaches blood magic?

Demons can remember things that humanity forgets.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Time4Tiddy wrote...

It seems quite clear in the Mage Origin in DA:O that Irving removed the books on Blood Magic from the library because some of the apprentices (Jowan) were studying the books. Jowan may be an untrustworthy source, but he seems honest in Redcliffe when he says that while he may be a blood mage, he's never dealt with demons. You have to learn blood magic from the Desire Demon mainly because there is no one else in the game who can teach it to you.

And all sources we've seen of blood magic, including scrolls which are meant to teach blood magic to individuals, essentially tell somebody to contact demons and submit yourself to them or subdue them.

No they don't.  Only the scrolls of banester say you have to do this.  We know that is false anyway, since Anders can be taught bloodmagic demon free and that is aknowledged in the game script making it game canon.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Except we never see the learning process Anders go through....

[Dave of Canada]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

You can learn it from a tome in Awakening.

Game mechanics, there's a tome to learn the Reaver spec too. Unless there's some drake blood in the book.

Anders seems to hint in one banter that you can just cut yourself and do blood magic on accident.

You mean when he's trying to insult Merrill? I'd hardly take that seriously.

[Dave of Canada]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But is that due to demons being the sole way to learn blood magic? Or is it due to demons being the only way to learn it since the Chantry banned, and more than likely burned, anything that teaches blood magic?

Demons can remember things that humanity forgets.

Considering the scrolls are filled with blood magic rituals and such, I'd doubt they'd gloss over the basics of blood magic. The game itself says the scrolls can be used to learn blood magic, which upon reading the codex entries gained from doing so, says you need to subdue / submit to a demon.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Except we never see the learning process Anders go through....

Anders makes it very clear he doesn't deal with demons both in DAA and DA2, so I think we can safely exclude demons.  Also no PC bloodmage is able to summon demons (although admittedly NPC ones can and do).

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

No they don't.  Only the scrolls of banester say you have to do this.

And everything else mentioned / shown ingame.

We know that is false anyway, since Anders can be taught bloodmagic demon free and that is aknowledged in the game script making it game canon.

-Polaris

Guess what else? We don't see anything about how he learned blood magic!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Blood magic being taught by demons does in no way imply that all blood mages are demonologists.

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders makes it very clear he doesn't deal with demons both in DAA and DA2

I made Wynne a blood mage.

Does that mean Wynne deals with demons?

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But is that due to demons being the sole way to learn blood magic? Or is it due to demons being the only way to learn it since the Chantry banned, and more than likely burned, anything that teaches blood magic?

Demons can remember things that humanity forgets.

Considering the scrolls are filled with blood magic rituals and such, I'd doubt they'd gloss over the basics of blood magic. The game itself says the scrolls can be used to learn blood magic, which upon reading the codex entries gained from doing so, says you need to subdue / submit to a demon.

Doesn't mean it's the only way.  Tevinter Lore (for example) insists that the Magisters first learned bloodmagic from Dumat while the Daish say that they learned it from the Elves of Arlathan.  In any event, even if bloodmagic does ultimately come from demons (as Avernus believed), there is no game evidence that a demon is required to teach it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders makes it very clear he doesn't deal with demons both in DAA and DA2

I made Wynne a blood mage.

Does that mean Wynne deals with demons?

I'd say no especially since Wynne has a non-demonic spirit possessing her.  That's another strike against your theory.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

And what if what they learned from the Elves and/or Dumat, was simply how to contact demons to teach them blood magic?

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Doesn't mean it's the only way.  Tevinter Lore (for example) insists that the Magisters first learned bloodmagic from Dumat while the Daish say that they learned it from the Elves of Arlathan.

Thedas history happens to say a lot of things.

Edit: And what Emperor said.

In any event, even if bloodmagic does ultimately come from demons (as Avernus believed), there is no game evidence that a demon is required to teach it.

-Polaris

Except from what's been presented, sure.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Blood magic being taught by demons does in no way imply that all blood mages are demonologists.

No, if a bloodmage warden is unable to summon a demon to teach Anders then Anders should not be able to taught bloodmagic but he can and the game canon aknowledges this.

Ergo, you don't need a demon to learn bloodmagic.

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

No, if a bloodmage warden is unable to summon a demon to teach Anders then Anders should not be able to taught bloodmagic but he can and the game canon aknowledges this.

Ergo, you don't need a demon to learn bloodmagic.

You don't need to summon demons using blood magic to lure one in, mages are beacons and do that well enough on their own.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except from what's been presented, sure.

What's been presented isn't evidence that bloodmagic can ONLY be learned from demons which is your claim.  It only details that demons can be used to learn it (which everyone already knows).

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

What's been presented isn't evidence that bloodmagic can ONLY be learned from demons which is your claim.  It only details that demons can be used to learn it (which everyone already knows).

-Polaris

And you're debating something with no evidence, I'm debating with ingame examples.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 août 2011 - 09:13 .

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

No, if a bloodmage warden is unable to summon a demon to teach Anders then Anders should not be able to taught bloodmagic but he can and the game canon aknowledges this.

Ergo, you don't need a demon to learn bloodmagic.

You don't need to summon demons using blood magic to lure one in, mages are beacons and do that well enough on their own.

Proof of that would be nice.  Mages may be beacons inherently, but you are talking about getting a demon to come at a time and place of your choosing for a particular purpose.  That takes demonolgy (the ability to summon demons).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What's been presented isn't evidence that bloodmagic can ONLY be learned from demons which is your claim.  It only details that demons can be used to learn it (which everyone already knows).

-Polaris

And you're debating something with no evidence, I'm debating with ingame examples.

You haven't given any!  The only think you've shown is that demons can teach bloodmagic and we already know that!

-Polaris

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

Proof of that would be nice.  Mages may be beacons inherently, but you are talking about getting a demon to come at a time and place of your choosing for a particular purpose.

Offering to make a deal with a demon or leaving yourself open to one certainly does have it's charms to a demon who's sole intent is possessing a mortal. Considering demons are always there when the mage wants something, I doubt they'd be mysteriously absent when a mage wants something from them.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[Dave of Canada]

IanPolaris wrote...

You haven't given any!  The only think you've shown is that demons can teach bloodmagic and we already know that!

-Polaris

I think you're the one who has to show evidence that blood mages don't need demons to learn. :happy:

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 20 août 2011 - 09:19 .