886 réponses à ce sujet

[Potato Cat]

Vit246 wrote...

A Warden mage can make a deal with a demon for blood magic without it backfiring on anyone. Besides, there is nothing that says blood magic must absolutely be learned from demons.

Except for Connor. And Connor's family, (but making Isolde upset is ALWAYS a good thing), and anyone the demon who has possessed Connor hurts.

[Zanallen]

Elfman wrote...

I always seen and known blood magic to be merely misunderstood. It's only really feared because it's to do with blood which is thought to be...you know. If blood magic didn't use blood but.......rainbows and was rainbow magic, with all the same danger and power associated with blood magic, would we truly fear it? No. In fact I feel sorry for blood magic.

Would rainbow magic still allow you to fuel your spells with the lives of others or control people's minds? If yes, then it would still be feared. If no, then it isn't anything like blood magic.

[TexasToast712]

 I used to believe that it isnt all bad. That it was just using blood in place of lyrium which it is. The events of DA2 and Fenris' tales of how bad it is in Tevinter changed my opinion on it though. I do not let most blood mages live. Merrill is the exception as she can still be saved from it and is clearly not possessed, also, she is my LI. (rival romanced)

Yea, yea, I know, total hypocrite. BITE ME! I just cant turn Merrill down, maybe she is seducing me using blood magic to control my mind. O_O.............. OH GOD!

[CrimsonZephyr]

The fact that blood magic has a completely different fuel that pretty much all other forms of magic is probably the saving grace of every mage. The fact that such insidious powers are only achieved through the extremely obvious act of spilling a torrent of blood makes it less subtle.

[Vit246]

Elfman wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

A Warden mage can make a deal with a demon for blood magic without it backfiring on anyone. Besides, there is nothing that says blood magic must absolutely be learned from demons.

Except for Connor. And Connor's family, (but making Isolde upset is ALWAYS a good thing), and anyone the demon who has possessed Connor hurts.

Huh? The deal includes intimidating the demon to go away from Connor forever, provided you have maximum Coercion. You don't turn into an abomination and no one gets hurt afterward. A mage basically gets blood magic for free.

Modifié par Vit246, 06 août 2011 - 12:25 .

[Gervaise]

The problem is that the mechanics of Blood Magic seem to have changed from DAO to DA2.  In DAO you could only get the blood magic specialisation by making a pact with a demon.  In DA2 you can just select it without any prerequesite.  So naturally people are now saying that you can learn blood magic without contacting a demon, so it is basically neutral. From what I have read on magic in the game, it would seem that any mage can perform basic magic without either lyrium or blood.  This would be the sort of magic that a child might dabble in.  As they mature age wise, the pool of mana grows and so they can still perform some spells without needing a boost to their powers. 

However, to progress onto really powerful spells you need either lyrium or blood or a combination of both (as in physically entering the fade).    Where large amounts of blood have been spilt, the veil between the physical world and the fade becomes thinner.  This makes it easier for the mage to enter the fade but conversely easier for spirits to enter the physical world.

From this I would conclude that spilling even a small amount of blood will for a brief period of time make the veil in that particular area thinner and thus easier to make contact with fade creatures or for them to make contact with you.  For most non mages this would not be a problem as they are not tuned into the Fade like mages and also not so attractive to Fade creatures which can sense the potential power in their prospective host.  

So a mage could accidentally cut themselves and then hear a voice in their head and think "hello".   If they are wise and have listened to lessons they have been given, they will then think "demon" and immediately say "goodbye".  If they have not been taught to ignore demons, if curiosity gets the better of them or if they actually like the idea, they will wait around and listen to what the demon has to say and from that point on they are at greater risk of possession because the demon has got a foothold.   Everytime they deliberately let their blood., they expose themselves to that risk again.  They may fool themselves that they are in control of the situation.  They may tell themselves that they are doing no harm and are only doing it this one time but once you have done it once seemingly without ill effects, you will find it that much easier to do it again and again.  Then when placed in a situation of stress you resort to it or your demon "ally" without thinking and poof, you're an abomination, which is essentially slavery to a demon.   Forget the hideous appearance.  That is what Anders doesn't really get when he says that he thought blood mages would reject the idea for aesthetic reasons if nothing else.   Actually quite a lot of blood mages in DA2 are already possessed but the demon ensures that their original appearance is maintained for as long as possible as this makes them undetectable.

So even at a simple level, blood magic is bad for the mage and bad for other people.  I suppose the closest analogy you can get is taking drugs for a high.  It seems great at the time and you're not harming anyone else, until something goes wrong and of course it may lead to something worse.   Taking drugs is not evil per se but it is a really bad idea.   Using blood magic at a simple level may not be inherently evil but dealing with demons is and it is a very bad idea.

Using blood magic as they do in Tevinter, letting the blood of countless slaves (willing or not willing) is evil.   How many of those mages originally argued that using blood magic at the simplest level was okay and then built up to mass slaughter by degrees?   Also using blood does give you access to a very simple fuel for your spells.  The very fact that lyrium is an expensive and finite resource has a limiting effect on your schemes.  When you can just kidnap victims from off the street, often the poor and destitute that no one really misses or cares about, your magic has no limits.

For all the above reasons I consider that blood magic is bad, I will not use it and agree that it should not be legal.  Sorry my post are always rather long but that is my view of the matter for what it's worth.

[C Trayne]

personally i'm not a fan of blood magic and didnt even get the tree during the one mage playthrough i have now (another one to come shortly) however i did like the trailers depiction of it when Hawke is battling the arishok and when all seems lost he pulls out that totally bad@** spell that rips him apart... totally awesome, and if that spell were available in game as more than a crushing prison finisher on ogres then i would have definetly gone after blood magic to use it lol

[Sepewrath]

Khambilo wrote...

I have no patience for blood magic or those who use it. From a game mechanics standpoint, blood mages are the worst enemies to fight. But I suspect the topic is mostly directed at the lore and narrative idea of blood magic. As far as that goes, I dislike it because in a way it feels like cheating. A mage doesn't have the time/power/resources/training/etc. to do something so they turn to blood magic. This sort of cheapens the idea that magic is a skill you hone and train to obtain a level of mastery over. If you notice, most of the characters in DA that use blood magic are either not particularly strong mages with good intentions (Jowan or Merril) or those who have been backed into a corner (Orsino and many other Kirkwall mages). With that in mind, I would have to lean towards the "blood magic is evil" side of the spectrum because I find anything that preys on the weak is inherently evil.

Well technically by that logic, couldn't we condemn you for using a computer, instead of training a bunch of pigeons to carry this message to everyone? The ability to communicate over long distances use to be a matter of using a messenger, something that required skill to manage. Now I can send a message to the other side of the planet in 15 seconds, does that cheapen communication? Using means that goes beyond natural human limitations is what society is built on, it would be like them pulling out an Uzi instead of using blood magic, what's the difference? In the end, they are simply using a tool that allows them to go beyond their means, no different than using  fishing rod, instead of sticking your hands in the water.

I don't think BM is evil, anything can be used to prey on the weak, regular magic, a sword, a club, bombs, hell bacteria. They are all nothing but tools, that can be used for good or ill or put a chest and forgotten about. Lets say a blood mage, uses it to make you jump off a cliff, that's evil. But then lets say that same blood mage, instead uses it to keep you from accidentally walking off a cliff, no so evil in that spot is it.

[WhiteKnyght]

IMO, magic is magic. Only difference is the power source. Mana, Blood, Taint, etc,

Anders' arguments about blood magic is mute because Origins gave the impression that BM and Demonology were different and in Awakening and DAII you can learn BM without even meeting a demon.

Also arguably it seems like anybody could do blood magic if they tried. Normal mages are able to use their gifts because they are born with mana which powers their magic. But everybody has blood.

The Dalish lore says the elves had the power of blood magic before man even did.and that they all possessed the gift. And had the power of immortality(probably life extension like Avernus used) and they went into a "sleep" which just means they did die.

[Wulfram]

I don't see it as worth the inherent risks, and if it was it still wouldn't be worth making everyone hate and fear you.

Though I wish Bioware would be less obscure about what actual risks it entails, and what connection it has to demons and whatnot. Considering both PCs in the game could potentially have been Blood Mages, we should know more about it.

[Ryzaki]

Powerful and dangerous and shouldn't be in an idiot's hands.

But nothing to be avoided provided your responsible enough to handle it.

[Ryzaki]

Elfman wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

A Warden mage can make a deal with a demon for blood magic without it backfiring on anyone. Besides, there is nothing that says blood magic must absolutely be learned from demons.

Except for Connor. And Connor's family, (but making Isolde upset is ALWAYS a good thing), and anyone the demon who has possessed Connor hurts.

Wrong. 

You can intimidate the demon into leaving and teaching you bloodmagic in exchange of it's life. (It leaves Connor alone in that scenario).

[Porenferser]

I kill every Blood Mage on sight.
'Nuff said.

[Sepewrath]

Gervaise wrote...

The problem is that the mechanics of Blood Magic seem to have changed from DAO to DA2.  In DAO you could only get the blood magic specialisation by making a pact with a demon.  In DA2 you can just select it without any prerequesite.

Well actually you could always learn blood magic without need of a demon, Jowan learned it from a book and I would assume anyone can learn it from another person. The Warden simply had to learn it from a demon. And I wouldn't attribute blood magic to a drug, I would attribute it to a weapon and a weapon is dangerous depending on who uses it, but a weapon itself has no moral description. A mage is no more subject to falling prey to demon being a blood mage than anything else, that is merely Chantry propaganda.

[DPSSOC]

For me Blood Magic really needs to be considered as two distinct aspects.

Using Blood as a Mana substitute - In and of itself this is morally neutral. Yes you can use the blood of others and could sacrifice an entire city just to fuel your magic, but that's the person using the practice not the practice itself. Given that blood is more plentiful and more potent than lyrium (Jowan's ritual in Origins, Merril's cleansing of the shard) it makes sense to have this as a back up tool for emergencies at least.

Blood Magic Exclusive Spells - Miles upon miles of bad road. Now our scope is limited but I can't recall a single spell that requires Blood Magic that isn't morally questionable at best. Summoning demons (bad road), controlling minds (bad road), causing people's blood to boil killing them from the inside (really bad road). I haven't seen a single blood magic spell that's benign, so I kind of have to give this one a no pass.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 06 août 2011 - 09:19 .

[Vit246]

In terms of gameplay, I think there should be a Blood Magic spell where you can summon a demon, except pride demons, that would be just too much.

[Sepewrath]

Well fireballs aren't exactly benign either, they are meant to melt flesh from bone, so hows that any better? You could probably summon demons using Lyrium too, your talking about specifically malevolent actions, the same way you could use mana to make a fireball for industrial reasons, you could use blood magic to make a fireball to do the same. Controlling minds even could be a positive under the right circumstance, look Charles Xavier as an example.

[nitefyre410]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well fireballs aren't exactly benign either, they are meant to melt flesh from bone, so hows that any better? You could probably summon demons using Lyrium too, your talking about specifically malevolent actions, the same way you could use mana to make a fireball for industrial reasons, you could use blood magic to make a fireball to do the same. Controlling minds even could be a positive under the right circumstance, look Charles Xavier as an example.

^ I like this human - she understands

[DPSSOC]

Sepewrath wrote...
Well fireballs aren't exactly benign either, they are meant to melt flesh from bone, so hows that any better?

Yes fireballs are a malevolent application of conjuring fire.  However the simple act of conjuring fire can serve a benign purpose.  I can't see how any of the things we see Blood Magic do; summoning demons, controlling minds, and messing around with blood temperature (wait, ok I got one for that) serve any benign function.

Sepewrath wrote...
Controlling minds even could be a positive under the right circumstance, look Charles Xavier as an example.

Whatever fine reason you may have for doing it you are robbing someone of their freedom, trapping them within their own mind, that is perhaps the greatest violation you can commit against another person.

[Northern Sun]

I view a blood mage in the same way I'd view a squadmate with one of those WWII flamethrowers. I'd appreciate what it does to our enemies, but I'm not standing next to him if I can help it, in case someone shoots the tank.

[Sons of Horus]

jlb524 wrote...

Khambilo wrote...

A mage doesn't have the time/power/resources/training/etc. to do something so they turn to blood magic. This sort of cheapens the idea that magic is a skill you hone and train to obtain a level of mastery over. If you notice, most of the characters in DA that use blood magic are either not particularly strong mages with good intentions (Jowan or Merril) or those who have been backed into a corner (Orsino and many other Kirkwall mages). With that in mind, I would have to lean towards the "blood magic is evil" side of the spectrum because I find anything that preys on the weak is inherently evil.

I disagree.  I'd imagine you'd have to be skilled in general magic to undertake blood magic.

RE:  Merrill.  She doesn't turn to blood magic because she's not a 'strong' mage.  She specifically begins to use it in order to cleanse the eluvian shard of the taint.  She mentions that if she had a ton of lyrium lying around, she would have used that instead.  Merrill was in a situation where blood magic was the only way to accomplish her goal, not that she felt she was 'weak' and needed a boost to her magic.

RE:  Jowan.  I think he started studying blood magic out of curiosity...that's the impression I got at least.

RE:  Orsino.  He didn't use BM (publicly at least) before because it's criminalized.  So, yeah, when backed into a corner and in a life or death situation, one isn't too concerned about breaking the rules, but with survival.

Also, I don't see how even if any of that were true, that you can conclude BM is evil.

I don’t think you need to be skilled at all to harness blood magic as it’s a power source. Its kind of the whole point. Blood Magic isn’t evil, but It is incredibly dangerous to use, both for the mage and potential victim.
* Merrill asked a more powerful keeper/mage marethari to clean it, it was well in her power to do so, with less lyrium. She refused so Merrill turned to the shortcut of blood magic. Seems like she’s weakened herself by giving into her pride.

* Jowan was jealous of the wardens power, its why he sort out the book of blood magic, to increase his own power, nothing noble about that. I wonder if he would have butcher Lilly for power if they had escaped as planed and templar’s were closing in.

*as for Orsino He deliberately assists a serial killer, providing aid and resources, and in return he gains illegal research on blood magic done at arms length. This was before he’s backed into a corner, so survival as a reason can be dismissed.

My view on blood magic is that its influence is so damaging because it can take away free will from an individual. Of course weak mages will try to weld it and use all sorts of justifications for it, like Fenris has stated.
If people want to research blood magic I would highly advise that the area would need to be contained a lot more than a circle ever could be.

[Nimrodell]

From what I seen in these posts, I can safely say that blood magic in DA2 is not a problem, problem are individuals that are using it and they would be the same with any other school. One can actually do good or choose 'lesser evil' with blood magic and if we're dealing with power hungry mage person, either blood mage or not, we'll have huge problem and that's what I find confusing with spirit healers and DA2 - one can be utter scumbag and still be spirit healer... and that's something that should not happen.

[dragonflight288]

Jowan was jealous of the wardens power, its why he sort out the book of blood magic, to increase his own power, nothing noble about that. I wonder if he would have butcher Lilly for power if they had escaped as planed and templar’s were closing in.

I'm currently replaying Origins as an Amell mage. From what I gather, Jowan, and not even the real one, makes only a single implication of jealousy and that's in the temple for the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Phantom-Jowan congratulates the Warden on becoming the mage he never could.

In the tower, Jowan cries out in desperation that he started dabbling in blood magic (learned from a book, not a demon) in order to become a better mage and hopefully make a better life for him and Lily. Only Gregoire got evidence and eye-witness testimony that Jowan was practicing blood magic (Irving states this when asked about it in the Origin story).

Jowan is renowned for making monumentally bad decisions, but he has never really implied jealousy of the Warden in the flesh. Only worry about his own lack of Harrowing and apparent lack of skill. And him trying to keep his relationship with Lily a secret. And no, Jowan honestly doesn't seem the type to butcher Lily.

The evidence of his good character is when I let him out of prison, and told him to escape as this was his last chance. He stubbornly refused and stayed to help, knowing he would likely be executed when all was done. He stayed, never used any magic on anyone except in the blood ritual, which Isolde volunteered for.

When a person stays to fight when all that awaits them is death in an unmarked grave or tranquility, that takes remarkable courage and is not the characteristics of a man consumed with power and thoughts of escape.

[dragonfire100]

My opinion is its AWESOME evil but awesome and very powerfull.

[Shadow Fox]

My opinion is that at it's core it's evil and despite the good it can do isn't worth the risks involed.