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[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The scrolls of banastor is the only documented source of how to learn blood magic. WHile it does not prove demons aren't neccesary, it proves that demons are involved, or can be at least. There are ZERO evidence, however, of blood magic being learned without the involvement of demons.

Let's actually examine the specific wording that's used in the Scrolls of Banastor:

The Scrolls of Banastor


To align with the power of the Fade is but the first of many steps. Further is to align the mind to the Fade's rules and find the ties between the realm of the dream and the realm of the flesh. This is the true power of blood magic: the flesh and the mind are inseparable, and therein lies the power to influence and control minds.

It's talking about the power to influence the minds of others, which is only ONE of the powers blood magic offers.

Others may speak of the sanctity of the mind. To those who know the true power of the blood, this is foolishness. The mind is no more sacred than the knee, the small toe, or the ear. It is man's organ of reasoning, nothing more. And true reasoning requires connection to the rhythm of the blood, the tireless pounding of life. Interrupt this, and even the mind is yours to attack.

Once again, it talks about the mind and dominating it.

In the Fade dwell creatures both foul and fair, but all plague mankind with lusts and prides incalculable in our waking hours. Our power attracts them, and for good reason: Our unique bridge between flesh and dreams is one way they can enter the realm of flesh. To begin the path to true power, court these poor, terrible creatures and best them. Force them into servitude or pledge your heart to them. Either way, you gain immense power and the means with which to tear holes in the world.

Again, talking about the connection between the physical world and the dream world that is the Fade, which deals with the mind.

The creatures, these demons, require little in the way of bribery. Their natural state is one of longing for the world of flesh and blood. This is what you offer them: respite from their eternal search for true life. Engage them in a battle of wills, and you will be successful. Should you fail, the power will be yours, but your body will belong to the demon. Relish this infernal power while it lasts, for once you are an abomination, your demon half will soon swallow your mind.

Finally, once you have come to ascend, have tasted the sweet nectar of the demonic blessing, rise anew, ascended, as a god. Through the connection between earth and sky, flesh and dream, blood and memory, you have risen above the petty concerns of the Chantry and her minions, past the notice of secular nobles and their petty squabbles. Through the rituals inscribed in these scrolls, you have mastered the minds of others, braved the temptations of the Fade, and quashed the terrible will of demons. Let no murder or theft weigh upon your mind, as your will is absolute, and the world is yours to claim.

The mind. Once again, Banastor (or was it Jubasto? I'm unsure now what his name was) talks about dominating the mind. This is a very specific set of rituals designed for one purpose: mind control

You can see where I'm going. The Scrolls of Banastor detail how to learn how to dominate a person's mind, which is only one part of blood magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 août 2011 - 10:15 .

[Vicious]

Thus far the story has bludgeoned us over the head and shoulders with the idea that Blood Magic is evil.

Then you got Malcolm Hawke, a well adjusted heroic badass Demon binding Good Husband Good Father etc. character... who was an apostate blood mage.


I am really wondering what the heck Bioware is expecting us to make of this.

[The Baconer]

Neminea wrote...
snip

That doesn't diminish my point. Learning blood magic may or may not require bargaining with a demon. Using it doesn't require any interaction with the Fade, since it draws from a completely earthly power source.

Modifié par The Baconer, 21 août 2011 - 01:36 .

[TEWR]

Vicious wrote...

Thus far the story has bludgeoned us over the head and shoulders with the idea that Blood Magic is evil.

Then you got Malcolm Hawke, a well adjusted heroic badass Demon binding Good Husband Good Father etc. character... who was an apostate blood mage.


I am really wondering what the heck Bioware is expecting us to make of this.

We've had a few good blood mages (Jowan, Merrill, Malcolm Hawke). Jowan was a good blood mage, although he has messed up a few times. But if you let him go he makes up for his mistakes by defending refugees from the Darkspawn.

Merrill never uses the blood of anyone else and was entirely in the right regarding the Eluvian. Her most evil act was taking flowers out of other peoples' gardens.

Malcolm Hawke is a badass. I expect that if we were to see a portrait of him, he'd have a really badass and epic beard.

Bioware wants us to realize that Blood Magic isn't inherently evil and can be used for good. I believe it can be used medicinally.

[dragonflight288]

Let me use a codex entry from Origins, titled Blood Magic: The Forbidden School

Foul and corrupt are you
Who have taken My gift
And turned it against My children.
--Transfigurations 18:10.

The ancient Tevinters did not originally consider blood magic a school of its own. Rather, they saw it as a means to achieve greater power in any school of magic. The name, of course, refers to the fact that magic of this type uses life, specifically in the form of blood, instead of mana. It was common practice, at one time, for a magister to keep a number of slaves on hand so that, should he undertake the working of a spell that was physically beyond his abilities, he could use the blood of his slaves to bolster the casting.

Over time, however, the Imperium discovered types of spells that could only be worked by blood. Although lyrium will allow a mage to send his conscious mind into the Fade, blood would allow him to find the sleeping minds of others, view their dreams, and even influence or dominate their thoughts. Just as treacherous, blood magic allows the Veil to be opened completely so that demons may physically pass through it into our world.

The rise of the Chant of Light and the subsequent fall of the old Imperium has led to blood magic being all but stamped out-as it should be, for it poses nearly as great a danger to those who would practice it as to the world at large.

--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

I bolded what I consider the important parts. Tevinter mages didn't consider blood magic it's own school at first. Any mage could use it willy nilly and no one would care (except the slaves). No demons were even mentioned, save that blood magic has the capability to tear open the veil and allow demons a gateway into our world beyond the dreaming minds of mages.

Blood magic has many powerful uses, and if you take away the spells that can only be cast with blood, it does not attract demons any more than a powerful mage with a store of lyrium lying around.

[Sepewrath]

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

[IanPolaris]

Sepewrath wrote...

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

In fairness mind-control/mind-influence and demonolgy do seem specific to blood magic (but then again most schools of magic have spells unique to that particular school).

-Polaris

[SkittlesKat96]

I reckon blood magic isn't necessarily a bad thing though I can't blame the Templars and Mages for fearing it, if magic, blood magic and the Fade and its angry demons existed in real life I think most people would be pretty horrified of it.

[King Minos]

I dont mind it really, seeing a friend use it may put me off my food but I would not care, I doubt I would use it myself, I have no intentions on my stabbing myself. And the nature of blood magic turning people I to abominations will put me off altogether.

[King Minos]

I would be scared to stab myself to use my own blood, but I won't hesitate to use blood off the floor. If I was injured then yeah I will use my own blood but no way am I ramming a blade into my hand on purpose.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

In fairness mind-control/mind-influence and demonolgy do seem specific to blood magic (but then again most schools of magic have spells unique to that particular school).

-Polaris

In a way Mind Blast from the Arcane tree could eventually be seen by the Chantry as mind control, since it makes people forget who they're attacking.

[Neminea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Anders makes it very clear he doesn't deal with demons both in DAA and DA2

I made Wynne a blood mage.

Does that mean Wynne deals with demons?

I'd say no especially since Wynne has a non-demonic spirit possessing her.  That's another strike against your theory.

-Polaris

More a strike against compagnions with blood spec are canon. Anders never does any blood magic in da2, even if you made him one in awakening. In my opinion, this is still people mixing game mechanics with lore canon, and don't even try and convince me that Wynne would do blood magic canonwise...

[LobselVith8]

Neminea wrote...

More a strike against compagnions with blood spec are canon. Anders never does any blood magic in da2, even if you made him one in awakening. In my opinion, this is still people mixing game mechanics with lore canon, and don't even try and convince me that Wynne would do blood magic canonwise...

True, making Wynne a blood mage is simply game mechanics, but the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic, and all he knows at that point is that she's another mage. Any further information about her isn't going to be revealed until he returns to the real world, so it stands as an example of one mage asking another to teach him to be a blood mage.

[IanPolaris]

Neminea wrote...

More a strike against compagnions with blood spec are canon. Anders never does any blood magic in da2, even if you made him one in awakening. In my opinion, this is still people mixing game mechanics with lore canon, and don't even try and convince me that Wynne would do blood magic canonwise...

I guess Justice doesn't permit it.  The fact is, unlike with Wynne, it's not just 'game mechanics' with Anders since the DAA diaglog does aknowledge Anders malificar status if he is one.

-Polaris

[Shadow Fox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hawke can also be a Reaver without drinking dragon's blood, though that makes very little sense.

Well (s)he fights lots of Dragons that bleed alot.

BTW I've changed my stance on BM infact I wish we could annoy Anders with it.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Neminea wrote...

More a strike against compagnions with blood spec are canon. Anders never does any blood magic in da2, even if you made him one in awakening. In my opinion, this is still people mixing game mechanics with lore canon, and don't even try and convince me that Wynne would do blood magic canonwise...

I guess Justice doesn't permit it.  The fact is, unlike with Wynne, it's not just 'game mechanics' with Anders since the DAA diaglog does aknowledge Anders malificar status if he is one.

-Polaris

I always thought it was Anders' Andrastian upbringing that made him stop being a blood mage. He may have used it for the Order, but when he left he probably also wanted to stop that.

Hell, maybe he thought that blood magic was partially to blame for Justice's persona change.

[Icy Magebane]

You cannot "stop" being a blood mage. Blood Magic is learned and isn't forgotten until the worms eat into your brain, as they say. But as I've said in the past, blood magic is the means to an end, and not evil in and of itself. I just felt like adding that comment.

[TEWR]

You may not be able to stop being branded a blood mage, but you can indeed stop being a practicing blood mage.

[Icy Magebane]

You cannot erase what you've learned, which is what I meant...

[TEWR]

Which I understood.

[Morroian]

Vicious wrote...

Thus far the story has bludgeoned us over the head and shoulders with the idea that Blood Magic is evil.

Then you got Malcolm Hawke, a well adjusted heroic badass Demon binding Good Husband Good Father etc. character... who was an apostate blood mage.

Well Malcolm only used it under threat. Be that as it may Merrill is not evil either.

[Icy Magebane]

lol... sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. :/

[TEWR]

It's okay. No harm done =)

[TEWR]

Morroian wrote...

Vicious wrote...

Thus far the story has bludgeoned us over the head and shoulders with the idea that Blood Magic is evil.

Then you got Malcolm Hawke, a well adjusted heroic badass Demon binding Good Husband Good Father etc. character... who was an apostate blood mage.

Well Malcolm only used it under threat. Be that as it may Merrill is not evil either.

He used blood magic to strengthen the seals that bound Corypheus under threats from the Wardens. But I'm led to believe that the demons he bound were his own doing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 août 2011 - 05:40 .

[Neminea]

IanPolaris wrote...

Neminea wrote...

More a strike against compagnions with blood spec are canon. Anders never does any blood magic in da2, even if you made him one in awakening. In my opinion, this is still people mixing game mechanics with lore canon, and don't even try and convince me that Wynne would do blood magic canonwise...

I guess Justice doesn't permit it.  The fact is, unlike with Wynne, it's not just 'game mechanics' with Anders since the DAA diaglog does aknowledge Anders malificar status if he is one.

-Polaris

We are talking in circles here, I allready said that I think that is just a tease game-wise, you keep saying everything that has ever been said is canon. I keep saying that since Anders later states that you need to look a demon in the eye to get blood magic both things can't be right. Let's just agree to disagree here, since this is getting a bit repetitive.