886 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

Huh... I think we need to acknowledge that the devs are not only human but obviously fallible humans, given the numerous bugs and poor design choices in DA2 (recycled dungeouns, etc). Now, I'm not willing to throw lore out the window just yet, but I think they have either not decided on what their lore is or they just haven't gotten their act together and come up with a cohesive story regarding magic. I think that DA3 will give us a solid platform to work with... but I still think that learning BM from books is just a game mechanic... I mean, you could learn any and all specs from books in DA:A, and that was obviously due to an unwillingness to implement new quests based around them. Further proof of this is learning Reaver, Blood Mage, Templar, and the rest in DA2 without any quests that you don't make up (which I always do).

I just think that DA2's problems have been identified and will be rectified in the future... IF, what I see as problems are also problems in the eyes of the development team... so... yeah, we'll see.

DA3 is where I'll give my final opinions on this series.

[Neminea]

Or the devs are secretely evil and they keep things deliberately vague just to drive us insane!

...I am not paranoid...

[Sepewrath]

IanPolaris wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

In fairness mind-control/mind-influence and demonolgy do seem specific to blood magic (but then again most schools of magic have spells unique to that particular school).

-Polaris

I actually question if it's not possible to control minds with lyrium. What is it about blood magic, that lets you control someones mind? Is it the power boost or is it manipulating the body of the victim, either one, can be done with other schools of magic, healing someone is manipulating body functions, revive is taking someone unconscious and forcing them awake. Why cant you control the brain, without blood magic?

[Icy Magebane]

Sepewrath wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

In fairness mind-control/mind-influence and demonolgy do seem specific to blood magic (but then again most schools of magic have spells unique to that particular school).

-Polaris

I actually question if it's not possible to control minds with lyrium. What is it about blood magic, that lets you control someones mind? Is it the power boost or is it manipulating the body of the victim, either one, can be done with other schools of magic, healing someone is manipulating body functions, revive is taking someone unconscious and forcing them awake. Why cant you control the brain, without blood magic?

Blood Magic is performed by physically manipulating blood, meaning that a person ensorcelled by this type of spell is controlled by completely physical means.  You are in essence commandeering their body and creating a puppet in a similar vein as... well, similar to Freddy Kruger in A Nightmare on Elm Street... 3 I think.  Where he took over that mental institution.  As the spell description states, the person is a "blood slave," and by physically manipulating the blood, you have control over their bodily fuctions.  It's not the same as telepathy, since you cannot alter their mental state or command them in a similar way... it's all based on blood and... I guess you could say that you telekineticaly controll them like a puppeteer.

Lyrium isn't the same thing by any stretch, as it relates directly to the mind.  Furthermore, lyrium addiction is what the Chantry uses to control Templars, but it's like any drug addiction (probably most easily related to heroin, the most mentally and physically addictive substance known to man).  You cannot think normally without lyrium once you are addicted and will do anything to obtain it.  And since the Chantry has a very tight hold on lyrium... you are their slave until you die.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 22 août 2011 - 06:53 .

[Neminea]

I never understood the motivation behind using lyrium on templars. If it really makes them more resitant to magic, that would be something, but the risks seem hardly worth it. I can't imagine it being purely for control reasons though, since the templar codex says they are inclined to choose very religiously devoted people as templars compared to other traits like a pure core or intelligence for that matter. One would think the chantry wouldn't have much trouble controlling the zealouts anyways. Also, if it was purely for control then someone must have figured that out by now wouldnt they?

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

AKA Chantry propaganda, you could probably do all of that with Lyrium.

Possibly, maybe even probably, but the amount needed makes it impractical.

[EvilElite99]

Magic = The Force
Blood Magic = Darkside Powers
I think the analogy is pretty close.
Also it makes the game kinda funny if instead of Meredith complaining about BM's she is complaining about Sith.
lol

[Sepewrath]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Blood Magic is performed by physically manipulating blood, meaning that a person ensorcelled by this type of spell is controlled by completely physical means.  You are in essence commandeering their body and creating a puppet in a similar vein as... well, similar to Freddy Kruger in A Nightmare on Elm Street... 3 I think.  Where he took over that mental institution.  As the spell description states, the person is a "blood slave," and by physically manipulating the blood, you have control over their bodily fuctions.  It's not the same as telepathy, since you cannot alter their mental state or command them in a similar way... it's all based on blood and... I guess you could say that you telekineticaly controll them like a puppeteer.

That's what I'm saying, when you heal someone, your controlling bodily functions, including blood. Your blood plays a central role in the healing process, so to heal someone, you would have to be controlling blood. I would think the way blood magic works, is it alters the flow of blood to the brain, putting you in a daze and making you open to suggestion. I would think that someone with lyrium could heal a large group of people at once, why couldn't they do the same thing that blood magic does?

[Gespenst]

Neminea wrote...

We are talking in circles here, I allready said that I think that is just a tease game-wise, you keep saying everything that has ever been said is canon. I keep saying that since Anders later states that you need to look a demon in the eye to get blood magic both things can't be right. Let's just agree to disagree here, since this is getting a bit repetitive.

That could always be a metaphor since more power makes you more attractive to demons... like taking a tiger by the tail. There's no tiger - well there might be but... do you see what I'm getting at?

[molech322]

The analogy to Star Wars especially in the Lightside/Darkside spectrum,  Blood magic is not inherently evil in my opinion but the capability to abuse it for ones own ends exist.  The Grey Warderns use it to fight the Darkspawn and many good apostates turn to it to simply survive and avoid the Chantry's so called interpretation of justice and views on magic.  In my opinion, the Chantry's paranoia and fear that Blood Magic corrupted the so called "Golden City" prohibits any research into the benefits or possible healing abilities of using Blood.  The Chantry in my opinion is inherently evil by locking up mages for fear of another Tevinter style Magocracy,  I hope in DA3 we have the option to destroy it or weaken it to the point of irrevalence

[Shadowvalker]

Hmm.

What is your opinion on blood magic?

I tend to see it like Merrill does. It's magi like anyother!

If I don't then I state that a paperclip is just as evil, due to the fact that it can be used to harm others.

Andraste was NOT against magic in it self but saw that the reell threat was how beings - humans, elves, etc.treat each other.

Keep in mind that Orlais was the birthplace of the chantry - Every where religion is or can be a form of powerbase - that includes the realm of Dragon Age. AND Orlais has used that as a reason for dominating nonbelivers! Nice!! Perhaps the chantry in it self are the true evil and not blood mages.

A funny thought I've had about magic in Andrastian lands where Templars rules is that Templars are the only ones who gains from such a structure.

Merrill's own words - why lock up mages where they can't do any good?!

If no one studies blood magic - then how will mankind ever learn to counter such "weapon"? We know blood magic comes from demons! So how can it only be of evil? Know your enemy? No! It's evil. Sorry. We lost because we don't want anything to do with blood magic.

I'm glad that the people of the free word - USA - in the 40's didn't see nuclear science as just evil...!

[RazorrX]

My take is that Blood Magic is evil and is something that should never be used if at all possible. This is based on the fact that lore says one thing even though gameplay does another. By basing it totally on lore blood magic involves demons every time. When Merrill uses Blood Magic to open the barrier on the mountain it is stated that she called a demon to do it. Gameplay often times does not follow lore, examples are most often seen in things like Blood Magic and Lyrium usage.
We know that Lyrium is *supposed* to be super addictive and that if those addicted do not get a regular supply they go crazy or die. We also know that prolonged use causes them to go crazy. The player can drink it like kool aid. Raw Lyrium is deadly to non dwarves, but in the deep roads you could use it to refresh yourself, etc.

Using examples such as this as my basis it is apparent that any use of blood magic involves the summoning of demons and thus puts the mage at risk of abomination land. This makes it not just a dangerous tool but a really dangerous tool. Similar to giving a monkey a hand grenade and letting it play in an room full of children and gasoline.

[Medhia Nox]

Does Flemeth ever state her opinion on Blood Magic?

[Medhia Nox]

@FemaleMageFan: The edgy crowd hates being told something is "bad/evil/wrong" - the eat that **** up like nobodies business.

[PrinceLionheart]

My interpretation is that the risks outweighs the benefits. That's about it.

[CrimsonZephyr]

You know, Templar resistance to magic =/= immunity, and a part of the reason mages are not quite up to scratch against them is because they are not trained soldiers. If a company of mages could fire spells like fireball in ranks, like archer companies or later line infantry companies IRL, they would crush the Templars in almost any engagement as long as the Templars could not flank them after closing the distance. Those mages in the Kirkwall courtyard? All they had to do was form tight ranks at the entrance and fire their most powerful spells by rank. Waves of Templars would have fallen before ever reaching swordfighting range. Instead, they were spread out and easily flanked. What the mages need is proper tactical training, not an unreliable power whose risks outweigh its benefits in virtually every situation.

[TEWR]

FemaleMageFan wrote...

From past analsys we can see that blood magic never brings good. So what i don't get is why some parties still support it. It is very powerful yes but my opinion on it is like a nuclear bomb. Powerful ut not necessary.

That's incorrect. The Joining is blood magic, the phylacteries are blood magic, Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the taint from the Eluvian shard, and Jowan used blood magic to protect refugees from the Darkspawn.

And before anyone says anything about Jowan and Redcliffe, blood magic had absolutely nothing to do with what happened there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

FemaleMageFan wrote...

From past analsys we can see that blood magic never brings good. So what i don't get is why some parties still support it. It is very powerful yes but my opinion on it is like a nuclear bomb. Powerful ut not necessary.

That's incorrect. The Joining is blood magic, the phylacteries are blood magic, Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the taint from the Eluvian shard, and Jowan used blood magic to protect refugees from the Darkspawn.

And before anyone says anything about Jowan and Redcliffe, blood magic had absolutely nothing to do with what happened there.

The joinning and phylacteries are NOT blood magic. They can be VIEWED as blood magic. It all comes down to how you define blood magic. If blood is simply required to be involved, then yes you could call it blood magic, you would be wrong, but you could. For it to be blood magic, blood has to power the spell, and since lyrium is involved in both cases, blood hardly powers the spell.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

FemaleMageFan wrote...

From past analsys we can see that blood magic never brings good. So what i don't get is why some parties still support it. It is very powerful yes but my opinion on it is like a nuclear bomb. Powerful ut not necessary.

That's incorrect. The Joining is blood magic, the phylacteries are blood magic, Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the taint from the Eluvian shard, and Jowan used blood magic to protect refugees from the Darkspawn.

And before anyone says anything about Jowan and Redcliffe, blood magic had absolutely nothing to do with what happened there.

Merrill had the option of using lyrium. It wasn't an easy option, but was finishing the mirror truly necessary. What's more, expediency doesn't make blood magic right. As for Jowan, he could have easily used regular magic instead of blood magic and have done just fine. And I don't buy that the poison didn't have blood magic involved. They needed the setting's holy grail just to get it out of Arl Eamon. That's no ordinary poison. Not to mention, Eamon was apparently trapped, conscious, in the Fade, which implies a magical connection to his condition.

[TEWR]

Merrill had the option of using lyrium. It wasn't an easy option, but was finishing the mirror truly necessary. What's more, expediency doesn't make blood magic right. As for Jowan, he could have easily used regular magic instead of blood magic and have done just fine. And I don't buy that the poison didn't have blood magic involved. They needed the setting's holy grail just to get it out of Arl Eamon. That's no ordinary poison. Not to mention, Eamon was apparently trapped, conscious, in the Fade, which implies a magical connection to his condition.

Lyrium is in the hands of the Dwarves or the Chantry. There are only two known Dwarven cities left alive, and only one has access to the surface, and the Chantry isn't exactly going to give lyrium to any one, let alone a mage.

What's more, expediency does make blood magic right in this instance. Merrill probably had to use Marethari's healing magic on the thing just to keep the taint from spreading to the clan, and if you remember Duncan said that despite the effectiveness of Marethari's unamplified magic the taint was still rapidly spreading throughout Mahariel and the Keeper's magic wouldn't be enough.

Again, this was the Keeper's unamplified magic.

Additionally, they have no halla so travel anywhere is severely limited, if at all possible.

So it was either use blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian shard through amplifying the Keeper's healing magic that Merrill knew, or toss the thing to the wayside where it would continue to taint the land and people near it and draw forth the Darkspawn.

Yea, I'd say Merrill made the right choice.

Additionally, I highly doubt that Jowan used blood magic on the poison. His dialogue seems to say that Loghain was the one that handed him the poison. To blame Jowan completely for giving Eamon a possibly magically concocted poison is a bit extreme. He should be blamed for the poisoning of Eamon, and not for the poison itself.

And blood magic is a lot more effective at killing Darkspawn then regular magic. Jowan can use the blood in the Darkspawn's veins against them, whereas regular magic just has him using his personal connection to the Fade.

And that'll run out fast.

The joinning and phylacteries are NOT blood magic. They can be VIEWED as blood magic. It all comes down to how you define blood magic. If blood is simply required to be involved, then yes you could call it blood magic, you would be wrong, but you could. For it to be blood magic, blood has to power the spell, and since lyrium is involved in both cases, blood hardly powers the spell.

WRONG. Gaider flat out said in a recent interview that the phylacteries ARE blood magic and that the Chantry is hypocritical in using it. Additionally, Gascard's magic in tracking down Alessa is using a phylactery. The Chantry probably just adds lyrium to the blood to make it glow near mages and cut out the need for a practitioner of blood magic.

At any rate, what's important is that Gaider confirmed the phylacteries are blood magic in a recent interview, which you can read about in the Registered Owners section.

And the Reaver Joining is blood magic -- as a mage said -- and is the same style of ritualized blood drinking that the Warden Joining is.

Blood magic is about gaining abilities from blood, using blood to power spells, and so many other things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 08:05 .

[Priisus]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The joinning and phylacteries are NOT blood magic. They can be VIEWED as blood magic. It all comes down to how you define blood magic. If blood is simply required to be involved, then yes you could call it blood magic, you would be wrong, but you could. For it to be blood magic, blood has to power the spell, and since lyrium is involved in both cases, blood hardly powers the spell.

Here's an excerpt from the recent Gaider interview:

Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's
nothing about it--especially since it can only against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there.

I don't necessarily outright condemn blood magic but I've not seen a single good usage of blood magic or blood mage (Merrill is gray to me, the closest is probably Jowan or Alain) and the blood mages of Kirkwall consist of people like Quentin, Grace and Septimus. It's hard to like blood mages if their majority consist of psychos.

Edit: -ed, TEWR you're so, so, so quick in threads that involve Merrill lol 

Modifié par Priisus, 02 février 2012 - 08:29 .

[TEWR]

lol I know. I have this very uncanny ability to just know when Merrill is talked about, and usually bashed.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I really want to know where you get the idea that blood magic can be cast infinitely, Ethereal. There's a reason why it is cast through hit points - it requires a contribution of the caster's blood and is therefore possibly as finite, if not more so, than lyrium magic. You overestimate it at every juncture.