886 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

I really want to know where you get the idea that blood magic can be cast infinitely, Ethereal. There's a reason why it is cast through hit points - it requires a contribution of the caster's blood and is therefore possibly as finite, if not more so, than lyrium magic. You overestimate it at every juncture.

Those are abilities that force you to use your own blood to power the spell. But we have proof of Tevinter Magisters using the blood of other people to power their spells.

So Jowan wouldn't need ot use his blood at all. He would just have to use the Darkspawn's.

Blood magic is also about manipulating the blood flow of people. Yourself, your allies, and your enemies.

Additionally, the ability sacrifice didn't require Hawke to use his blood. Nor did Grave Robber's upgraded form.

So no, I am not overestimating it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 03:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I am pretty sure you have to use the blood of a creature with a soul. Otherwise there would never have been any need for human sacrifices in the first place, now would there?

And game mechanics =/= lore.

So far we have seen no evidence that blood magic can be cast infinitely. We have seen plenty evidence that casting magic in general, will exhaust the caster eventually, and so we have to presume that same set of rules applies to blood magic. Especially if he uses his own blood as fuel.

[TEWR]

Descriptions of abilities are lore though. As such, while game mechanics are not lore they most certainly must reflect it and those abilities I mentioned do reflect it. And Caladrius did the same exact thing. And so did Hadriana. She used the blood of slaves to make her stronger.

And that honestly depends on how you define the concept of a soul. The Darkspawn may indeed have a soul, but it's trapped due to their connection to the Old Gods. But then the Architect's Joining liberates their soul and allows it to surface.

Remember that the Baroness used the First's blood to power her spell. And IIRC, Gaider said that the Darkspawn form of magic is a different form of blood magic. I'll try and dig up that quote, as I'm a bit hazy on what was said.

Besides, nothing in lore points to a soul having to be necessary. It may just be something as simple as "more blood in a creature = more power for a spell".

Which would make sense for why Tevinter uses their slaves for their spells instead of something like.... pigs.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 04:01 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

No it wouldn't make any sense at all. Why the hell use a slave instead of just two pigs, or a cow for that matter? I'd bet you that a slave is still more expensive than two pigs, and if animals could give you the same results, you'd go for the cheaper solution. Unless you are mustache twstingly evil.

And is there any description of "Grave Robber" beyond that the mage uses this spell to consume "residual life force" (whatever that is), to replenish his own health? And how do you get that two line description to imply that Blood Magic is an inexhaustible form of magic?

I also think I recall that DG quote. It was something along the lines of calling Darkspawn Magic similar to blood magic, but Blight Magic, would be more fitting term. That they use the blight within them to fuel their spells. Instead of the blood within them.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 04:10 .

[TEWR]

Unless you are mustache twstingly evil.

Well, every Tevinter Magister that uses blood magic is mustache twirlingly evil. Unless Feynriel happens to be a Magister in Act III when he saves whats-her-name.

And Grave Robber's upgrade says that it can use the life force of people that are still alive as well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 04:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Unless you are mustache twstingly evil.

Well, every Tevinter Magister that uses blood magic is mustache twirlingly evil.

 
At least, if there were no alternative to human sacrifice, they would be so within a believable premis. If tehre are actualy alternatives, then it is just plain stupid. And that incidence with Feynriel is anyhting but good natured.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 
And Grave Robber's upgrade says that it can use the life force of people that are still alive as well.

Still doesn't make it inexhaustable to cast blood magic lorewise. If anyhting psychological fatigue would strike at some point, when your body gets too stressed by the pain, from impaling yourself on a 6 foot pole....

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 02 février 2012 - 04:29 .

[TEWR]

Still doesn't make it inexhaustable to cast blood magic lorewise. If anyhting psychological fatigue would strike at some point, when your body gets too stressed by the pain, from impaling yourself on a 6 foot pole....

That's hemorrhage, which requires you to use your blood for a particular ability. But that doesn't mean that all blood magic requires this.

Really, all Jowan would have to do is use the Darkspawn blood in a Sacrifice like form, but cut out the healing.

Ball up all that blood like the blood mages we fight in DAII do, throw it at the other Darkspawn, then rinse and repeat.

And I will always disagree with your assertion that Feynriel used blood magic on whats her name to make her fall in love with her. It's just her being crazy in love of her own accord. Honestly, that's just something that the devs wouldn't do. Gaider has gone on record wishing we saw more sane mages. The devs aren't about to make Feynriel number 386 on the list of evil and insane mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You just sent Feynriel to the, by your own words, mustache twistingly evil magisters, and you expect him to remain a paragon of virtue and justice? And also, just listen to the lady after you save her. That is not a sane person speaking.

Anyway... thats a discussion for another thread..

Why are we talking about Jowan and Darkspawn by the way? As I recall he never comes into contact with Darkspawn. And I'm still skeptical about other sources than human/elf/dwarf blood can be used. Since that would make the entire idea of blood magic just plain stupid.

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You just sent Feynriel to the, by your own words, mustache twistingly evil magisters, and you expect him to remain a paragon of virtue and justice? And also, just listen to the lady after you save her. That is not a sane person speaking.

That woman was a fangirl. Have you ever met a sane fangirl?

[TEWR]

You just sent Feynriel to the, by your own words, mustache twistingly evil magisters, and you expect him to remain a paragon of virtue and justice? And also, just listen to the lady after you save her. That is not a sane person speaking.

Boom. Your last sentence hit the nail on the head. The woman isn't sane. That's the point. She has an insane adoration of Feynriel just because he happened to save her.

They met in the Fade. Not in the physical realm, but nevertheless they met. I've talked with a couple girls that I had just met for only a few minutes and they acted... similarly to whats-her-name.

And Fenris does say that there are some good Magisters amongst the Imperial Senate. The majority are evil, but not all. So if some good Magisters can exist there, then Feynriel could be one of the good Magisters.

And if Bioware were honest about wanting to show more good mages, they wouldn't make Feynriel end up evil.

It's a somewhat related topic, as this thread deals with blood magic. Feynriel used blood magic to kill off those bandit rapists, but he didn't use it on the woman.

Think about it. They met in the Fade. He told her she'd be safe. At this point, he was busy killing off the bandits. He can't multitask as that would strain his power, and the woman didn't meet with Feynriel again.

To assume that she's a blood thrall is stretching it.

And Jowan can protect refugees from Darkspawn if he's told to leave Redcliffe and never return. It's a quest that's bugged on console versions. PC versions are able to access it I think.

Anyway, why use two pigs when you can use two humans? Pigs probably don't have as much blood as humans. Also, the Magisters like to kill off slaves to make an example to the other slaves.

I imagine slaves are more available then animals. The magisters like to have duels. I doubt they're going to ask for a time-out while they go and buy some animals.

Going out into the streets with animals risks them 1) being not enough to win in a battle. 2) being stolen easier than humans/elves.

So while it would be the better alternative, the Magisters are for the most part focused solely on power and prestige. Very rarely will you find one with a good heart. And if you do, chances are that heart is sitting on a rival Magister's table sadly.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 février 2012 - 05:16 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Strain his power? He is a somniari, I doubt anyhting we can imagine can strain his power. I'm no saying he neccesarily used blood magic (I'd wager he had had enough of demons by now), but he is a somniari, so I can't rule out the possibility of him having messed with her. Especially since we are never told that the girl have a history of insanity (something I'd guess a concerned father would tell her would-be rescuers). Something about that whole situation just seems off, and that is all I am saying. Untill we meet Feynriel again I will keep suspecting foul play.
Also, the nice Magisters are at the bottom of the foodchain in Tevinter, and Feynriel would require a powerful teacher, so he is bound to be taught by one of the meaner magisters.

Humans have around 5/4 gallon of blood in their body, a pig have around 3/4 as an adult I believe. A pig is always going to be cheaper to buy than a slave, furthermore using pigs for sacrifices would make the slaves MUCH less likely to revolt, and there would simply be no viable reason to ever use human sacrifices to power your spell, when you have a much more readily available and cheaper power source literally in your own courtyard.

That quest with Jowan is bugged in PC version aswell, but it is available through console commands. It isn't cut content, and would be considered lore if completed (I believe there is a flag for it to carry over to other games, unlike the actually cut content quests)

[Porenferser]

Blood Magic = Death sentence.

[TEWR]

Strain his power? He is a somniari, I doubt anyhting we can imagine can strain his power. I'm no saying he neccesarily used blood magic (I'd wager he had had enough of demons by now), but he is a somniari, so I can't rule out the possibility of him having messed with her. Especially since we are never told that the girl have a history of insanity (something I'd guess a concerned father would tell her would-be rescuers). Something about that whole situation just seems off, and that is all I am saying. Untill we meet Feynriel again I will keep suspecting foul play.

I still think you shouldn't suspect foul play. We haven't heard anywhere that Somniari powers grant a mage exclusive abilities. All we know is that they are more powerful than the the average mage and can walk the Fade physically IIRC.

And besides, I would think it would be really crummy for him to do something so evil when he admits to Hawke through letter that he understands why the Templars are needed sometimes. He was almost a slave himself. Why would he want to enslave someone else?

It's better to assume she's just an awestruck girl in love with Feynriel. Her own father says that the idea of an arranged marriage would be ruined if her virginity was taken from her by the bandits, which implies she's never really had much interaction with men she wanted to be around.

The one thing I want to know though is.... how the hell did he know what was happening on the other side of the continent?

Also, the nice Magisters are at the bottom of the foodchain in Tevinter, and Feynriel would require a powerful teacher, so he is bound to be taught by one of the meaner magisters.

Oh I know. I'm just saying that there are nice Magisters in Tevinter. Feynriel most likely did find one of the evil ones to train him.

I always see Feynriel leading some sort of revolution in Tevinter. Possibly influenced by my belief that Andraste was a Somniari Blood Mage OGB.

Humans have around 5/4 gallon of blood in their body, a pig have around 3/4 as an adult I believe. A pig is always going to be cheaper to buy than a slave, furthermore using pigs for sacrifices would make the slaves MUCH less likely to revolt, and there would simply be no viable reason to ever use human sacrifices to power your spell, when you have a much more readily available and cheaper power source literally in your own courtyard.

Still, I will believe that other alternatives can be used. We already know Darkspawn can be used for blood magic. It's not too far off to assume that animals can be used.

Actually, if you think about it then using Dog for blood magic's Sacrifice ability in DAO proves this. I imagine if Bioware didn't want it to work on animals, then there would've been something to make Dog not act as a target for it.

Unless Shale is susceptible to it as well. Then.... well... we're back to square one.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2012 - 02:01 .

[dreman9999]

That there is no real good reson to use it.

[Quatre]

Porenferser wrote...

Blood Magic = Death sentence.

At least for those who try to battle with a blood mage.

[Gervaise]

I don't think animal sacrifices are a possible source for blood magic rituals - otherwise the ancient magisters wouldn't have needed to expend so many slaves to get into the Fade. Although Fenris says that elves breed quickly, they do not breed as quickly as some other creatures or produce as many offspring at one go. If it were possible to use rabbits or dogs, then you would use rabbits or dogs. It is cheaper and less wasteful than slaves. Slaves are worth 200 gold each - I think that was the going rate that was quoted in DA2. Mind you, if the sacrifice merely had to have some degree of intelligence, that may account for why the Magisters originally bred Mabari hounds and why the latter decided to opt for better owners when they got the chance.

The developers have never properly explained the mechanics of blood magic but I think it is likely that the creature used must at least be humanoid (hence darkspawn are possible).

[HolyAvenger]

Probably not a good idea. Dealing with demons doesn't tend to be tbf. I'm OK with banning as on the balance of probabilites most mages who dabble in it tend to go abomination/murderous.

[RazorrX]

In origins you could leech from a rangers pet. I think blood is blood, but maybe humanoid blood is stronger.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Strain his power? He is a somniari, I doubt anyhting we can imagine can strain his power. I'm no saying he neccesarily used blood magic (I'd wager he had had enough of demons by now), but he is a somniari, so I can't rule out the possibility of him having messed with her. Especially since we are never told that the girl have a history of insanity (something I'd guess a concerned father would tell her would-be rescuers). Something about that whole situation just seems off, and that is all I am saying. Untill we meet Feynriel again I will keep suspecting foul play.

I still think you shouldn't suspect foul play. We haven't heard anywhere that Somniari powers grant a mage exclusive abilities. All we know is that they are more powerful than the the average mage and can walk the Fade physically IIRC.

And besides, I would think it would be really crummy for him to do something so evil when he admits to Hawke through letter that he understands why the Templars are needed sometimes. He was almost a slave himself. Why would he want to enslave someone else?

It's better to assume she's just an awestruck girl in love with Feynriel. Her own father says that the idea of an arranged marriage would be ruined if her virginity was taken from her by the bandits, which implies she's never really had much interaction with men she wanted to be around.

The one thing I want to know though is.... how the hell did he know what was happening on the other side of the continent?

 
As long as he is trained in Tevinter, I have every reason to suspect foul play. He is a mage after all, and you know I don't trust them.

And Somniari have abilities that mages don't posses. For instance the abilities to trace people through the Fade, and hunt them in their own dreams, thus killing them. Something an ordinary mage is not capable of. So a Somniari is capable of at least some feats a normal mage can't.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Also, the nice Magisters are at the bottom of the foodchain in Tevinter, and Feynriel would require a powerful teacher, so he is bound to be taught by one of the meaner magisters.

Oh I know. I'm just saying that there are nice Magisters in Tevinter. Feynriel most likely did find one of the evil ones to train him.

I always see Feynriel leading some sort of revolution in Tevinter. Possibly influenced by my belief that Andraste was a Somniari Blood Mage OGB.

 
Boy, are you gonna be disappointed when it is revealed she was an ordinary, yet remarkable, woman, with a nice voice.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Humans have around 5/4 gallon of blood in their body, a pig have around 3/4 as an adult I believe. A pig is always going to be cheaper to buy than a slave, furthermore using pigs for sacrifices would make the slaves MUCH less likely to revolt, and there would simply be no viable reason to ever use human sacrifices to power your spell, when you have a much more readily available and cheaper power source literally in your own courtyard.

Still, I will believe that other alternatives can be used. We already know Darkspawn can be used for blood magic. It's not too far off to assume that animals can be used.

Actually, if you think about it then using Dog for blood magic's Sacrifice ability in DAO proves this. I imagine if Bioware didn't want it to work on animals, then there would've been something to make Dog not act as a target for it.

Unless Shale is susceptible to it as well. Then.... well... we're back to square one.

You could cast that spell on all party members. Likewise you could cast "life steal" on all enemies except undead, so you could steal the life of a golem.... But that is game mechanics again, which shouldn't be viewed as lore. Perhaps Darkspawn are susceptible to blood magic because they are, in a way, decended from humans (or Elves, or Dwarves, or Qunari).

[Jestina]

It's overused.

Every mage outside the Circle is doing it, seems like.

[TEWR]

As long as he is trained in Tevinter, I have every reason to suspect foul play. He is a mage after all, and you know I don't trust them.

You're a Templar to the core then . Now the question remains, are you a Templar like Gregoir and Cullen? Or are you a Templar like Meredith and whats-his-name from Asunder?

Boy, are you gonna be disappointed when it is revealed she was an ordinary, yet remarkable, woman, with a nice voice.

There happens to be enough stuff though for that speculation to be believed to be possible. Well, the mage bit anyway.

The sword Glandivalis that Shartan wielded is infused with blood magic abilities. Remember that he was given it as a gift from Andraste, so it's likely that Andraste was a blood mage when the sword was forged and she gave it some blood magic abilities.

Next, Gaider has gone on record to say the Chantry is hypocritical in a few areas, the phylacteries being blood magic are one such example. It stands to reason that their hypocrisy might go out a little bit farther and they never wanted it known that Andraste was a mage.

Third, what better irony is there then for her to have been a blood mage? The weapon the Magisters used was ultimately turned against them by the Scion of the Maker.

Not to mention that book we found as a gift for Wynne that speculated that Andraste may have been a mage and was saved from a fire.

....Though why it was in Orzammar I don't know. Perhaps Orzammar wanted to keep it incase they needed some leverage against the Chantry?

Still speculation of course.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 février 2012 - 01:44 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Perhaps there used to be copies of it elsewhere, but the Chantry seized it and "disposed" of all copies on the surface?

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As long as he is trained in Tevinter, I have every reason to suspect foul play. He is a mage after all, and you know I don't trust them.

You're a Templar to the core then . Now the question remains, are you a Templar like Gregoir and Cullen? Or are you a Templar like Meredith and whats-his-name from Asunder?

 
I'd prefer to view myself as a morally aware and responsible Templar, if a Templar at all.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Boy, are you gonna be disappointed when it is revealed she was an ordinary, yet remarkable, woman, with a nice voice.

There happens to be enough evidence though for that speculation to be believed. Well, the mage bit anyway.

The sword Glandivalis that Shartan wielded is infused with blood magic abilities. Remember that he was given it as a gift from Andraste, so it's likely that Andraste was a blood mage when the sword was forged and she gave it some blood magic abilities.

Next, Gaider has gone on record to say the Chantry is hypocritical in a few areas, the phylacteries being blood magic are one such example. It stands to reason that their hypocrisy might go out a little bit farther and they never wanted it known that Andraste was a mage.

Third, what better irony is there then for her to have been a blood mage? The weapon the Magisters used was ultimately turned against them by the Scion of the Maker.

Not to mention that book we found as a gift for Wynne that speculated that Andraste may have been a mage and was saved from a fire.

....Though why it was in Orzammar I don't know. Perhaps Orzammar wanted to keep it incase they needed some leverage against the Chantry?

Well, her abilities could also be attributed to her actually being an actual divinity. It is all left deliciously ambiguous, so that all who loves to speculate can.

The sword could simply be an artifact from Arlathan, which would in turn put the history of Arlathan in a more sinister light.

Andraste being a blood mage rumor could also be attributed to the effect her emre presence actually had on the people around her. If she truly was a divinity, her presence could possible have been "intoxicating" for mortals, akin to how a  blood mage dominates the minds of others. You also need to remember that Tevinter have a very real interrest in spreading propaganda that Andraste was a mage, since if it takes hold, then they will have divine verdict that mages are superior to commoners.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote....

Perhaps there used to be copies of it elsewhere, but the Chantry seized it and "disposed" of all copies on the surface?

That's what I've been thinking. That the Chantry didn't want anything that differed from their religious dogma to be known throughout the world, so they burned the books.

Doesn't exactly paint the Chantry in the best light.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The sword could simply be an artifact from Arlathan, which would in turn put the history of Arlathan in a more sinister light.

I wouldn't say it casts Arlathan in a sinister light. Blood magic isn't inherently evil.

Andraste being a blood mage rumor could also be attributed to the effect her emre presence actually had on the people around her. If she truly was a divinity, her presence could possible have been "intoxicating" for mortals, akin to how a blood mage dominates the minds of others. You also need to remember that Tevinter have a very real interrest in spreading propaganda that Andraste was a mage, since if it takes hold, then they will have divine verdict that mages are superior to commoners.

Where was that last bit ever mentioned? I don't think that was ever mentioned anywhere in the games.

I'd prefer to view myself as a morally aware and responsible Templar, if a Templar at all.

So.... like Ser Maarevar Carver?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 06 février 2012 - 02:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The sword could simply be an artifact from Arlathan, which would in turn put the history of Arlathan in a more sinister light.

I wouldn't say it casts Arlathan in a sinister light. Blood magic isn't inherently evil. 

 
You may not think so. But however you put it, the usage and workings of blood magic is inherently sinister.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Andraste being a blood mage rumor could also be attributed to the effect her emre presence actually had on the people around her. If she truly was a divinity, her presence could possible have been "intoxicating" for mortals, akin to how a blood mage dominates the minds of others. You also need to remember that Tevinter have a very real interrest in spreading propaganda that Andraste was a mage, since if it takes hold, then they will have divine verdict that mages are superior to commoners.

Where was that last bit ever mentioned? I don't think that was ever mentioned anywhere in the games.

 
It isn't. It is however a logical political goal for a nation ruled by mages. Which is why I assume that the Tevinters would have a vested interrest in spreading the rumor, that Andraste was a mage.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

I'd prefer to view myself as a morally aware and responsible Templar, if a Templar at all.

So.... like Ser Maarevar Carver?

I guess...