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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

First of all. Whenever someone experiments with the Taint, it isn't baseless to claim that they risk bringing it back with them. So warning the clan about her doing her research was not a dumb thing to do, since it was a real risk.

It is when Merrill tells Marethari that they've been over it before and that the shard was cleansed.

That shows that Marethari clearly doesn't trust Merrill.

It's also idiotic when you spread those claims and ask the person you believe is tainted to return to the clan that now hates her and fears her. If Merrill was tainted -- which she wasn't -- she would either attract the Darkspawn, go off to find them, or become an Elven broodmother on Sundermount.

Not to mention she wouldn't be trusted or liked amongst the clan anymore because of what Marethari spread.

 
Cleansing a shard =/= not cleansing the Eluvian. Furtehrmore Merrill had absolutely no idea about what the Eluvian actually was, or what corrupted it in the first place. She was working in complete blindness. In such a case it is not stupid to actually warn the people around her of the threat she might pose.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Second of all, lyrium would've changed everything, since as you said yourself, Merrill already knew the healing magic, and only contacted Audacity to learn of blood magic. No Audacity, no blood magic. No blood magic, no tragedy.

No it wouldn't. You are deliberately ignoring how Marethari didn't want Merrill working on the Eluvian because of what it did to Tamlen and Mahariel and begged her to dispose of it and return to the clan.

The lyrium wouldn't have changed those things.

 
At least the demon part would have alleviated some of the pressure AND neither Merrill nor Marethari would eventually have had to die. Lyrium acces would have changed everything.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Third of all: I don't trust an Abomination, I trust Marethari's judgement from before. Also, I trust that a trapped demon will always seek freedom.

And you're assuming -- with no evidence to back it up -- that Marethari knew this before she became possessed.

In which case, ask yourself this: Why the hell didn't she go and see Merrill before she got possessed and tell her this?

At least I am basing the assumption on SOMETHING, instead of just blatant Merrill fanboyism (it isn't a secret that you adore Merrill after all). You have a whole lot of conjecture to try and twist the demons plot into targetting Marethari specifically, instead of the by far more likely: it simply wanted freedom, however it could get it. And the most and easiest manipulable mage was Merrill.  Audacity didn't care whichever of them it got, but it knew that the way it played its cards, it would get one of them.

[Xilizhra]

Cleansing a shard =/= not cleansing the Eluvian. Furtehrmore Merrill had absolutely no idea about what the Eluvian actually was, or what corrupted it in the first place. She was working in complete blindness. In such a case it is not stupid to actually warn the people around her of the threat she might pose.

That's because she was building a new Eluvian, with the cleansed shard as a base. In any case, Merrill had left the Dalish and was no longer endangering them, and even if she was, it'd be the Eluvian itself that was dangerous, not her personally.

At least the demon part would have alleviated some of the pressure AND neither Merrill nor Marethari would eventually have had to die. Lyrium acces would have changed everything.

Lyrium access can do a lot of things. Unfortunately, it has a way of being underground and suchlike.

At least I am basing the assumption on SOMETHING, instead of just blatant Merrill fanboyism (it isn't a secret that you adore Merrill after all). You have a whole lot of conjecture to try and twist the demons plot into targetting Marethari specifically, instead of the by far more likely: it simply wanted freedom, however it could get it. And the most and easiest manipulable mage was Merrill. Audacity didn't care whichever of them it got, but it knew that the way it played its cards, it would get one of them.

I'm halfway; I think Merrill was Audacity's initial target, but it realized that Merrill wouldn't allow it to possess her, so it went for Marethari instead, and then decided to kill Merrill in revenge.

[TEWR]

Cleansing a shard =/= not cleansing the Eluvian. Furtehrmore Merrill had absolutely no idea about what the Eluvian actually was, or what corrupted it in the first place. She was working in complete blindness. In such a case it is not stupid to actually warn the people around her of the threat she might pose.

David Gaider has already established that she took a shard from the original Eluvian Duncan smashed and built an entirely new one.

In order for her to have begun building a new one, she had to have cleansed it.

Ergo, the cleansed shard does equal a cleansed Eluvian.

At least the demon part would have alleviated some of the pressure AND neither Merrill nor Marethari would eventually have had to die. Lyrium acces would have changed everything.

Doubtful. See what I said on the previous page about how Marethari would still have probably been influenced by Audacity -- as he was right there and whispering to them -- and probably would have done the same things, but for different reasons.

You have a whole lot of conjecture to try and twist the demons plot into targetting Marethari specifically, instead of the by far more likely: it simply wanted freedom, however it could get it. And the most and easiest manipulable mage was Merrill. Audacity didn't care whichever of them it got, but it knew that the way it played its cards, it would get one of them.

An assumption based off of something is still an assumption.

I'm also basing my assumptions off of things the game -- as well as certain dev comments and the short story -- present.

Two being Marethari is the one Audacity asked to free him in the short story and a dev post saying that demons prey on those who are in a position of power and are also powerful mages.

Both of which Marethari is. Merrill is only the latter, as she has no standing influence in the clan. She is a First, which provides her future influence, but as far as actual influence in the clan goes she doesn't have any. Because the clan listens to the Keeper first and foremost.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Cleansing a shard =/= not cleansing the Eluvian. Furtehrmore Merrill had absolutely no idea about what the Eluvian actually was, or what corrupted it in the first place. She was working in complete blindness. In such a case it is not stupid to actually warn the people around her of the threat she might pose.

David Gaider has already established that she took a shard from the original Eluvian Duncan smashed and built an entirely new one.

In order for her to have begun building a new one, she had to have cleansed it.

Ergo, the cleansed shard does equal a cleansed Eluvian.

 
If the Eluvian was corrupted by an exterior force, perhaps. However, if it was the palce it lead to which corrupted it, nothing would have changed. Merrill didn't know, and didn't care.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

At least the demon part would have alleviated some of the pressure AND neither Merrill nor Marethari would eventually have had to die. Lyrium acces would have changed everything.

Doubtful. See what I said on the previous page about how Marethari would still have probably been influenced by Audacity -- as he was right there and whispering to them -- and probably would have done the same things, but for different reasons.

 
Marethari said a grand total of what? Four sentences to Audacity, then never interacted with it again, until she sacrificed herself for Merrill. And the demon was bound to that statue within the ruins, and couldn't influence anyone but those in its proximity. While in the camp it could only contact them in their dreams, which is something mages have to deal with on a regular basis anyway, and wouldn't have been a problem for a mage as experienced as Marethari.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

You have a whole lot of conjecture to try and twist the demons plot into targetting Marethari specifically, instead of the by far more likely: it simply wanted freedom, however it could get it. And the most and easiest manipulable mage was Merrill. Audacity didn't care whichever of them it got, but it knew that the way it played its cards, it would get one of them.

An assumption based off of something is still an assumption.

I'm also basing my assumptions off of things the game -- as well as certain dev comments and the short story -- present.

Two being Marethari is the one Audacity asked to free him in the short story and a dev post saying that demons prey on those who are in a position of power and are also powerful mages.

Both of which Marethari is. Merrill is only the latter, as she has no standing influence in the clan. She is a First, which provides her future influence, but as far as actual influence in the clan goes she doesn't have any. Because the clan listens to the Keeper first and foremost.

A free demon would prey on those in power. A trapped demon, would prey on those in a posistion to free it. Marethari was clearly unwilling to do so, and thus it turned its attention to Merrill, who was also unwilling to free it, but she was manipulable to further its own goal. The demon didn't want to possess Marethari specifically, ANY mage would've sufficed. The demon wanted one thing, and one thing only: Freedom.

[Xilizhra]

If the Eluvian was corrupted by an exterior force, perhaps. However, if it was the palce it lead to which corrupted it, nothing would have changed. Merrill didn't know, and didn't care.

True, in the same way that casting a fireball could theoretically open a portal into the Fade and summon a horde of pride demons. But the possibility seems rather remote.

Marethari said a grand total of what? Four sentences to Audacity, then never interacted with it again, until she sacrificed herself for Merrill. And the demon was bound to that statue within the ruins, and couldn't influence anyone but those in its proximity. While in the camp it could only contact them in their dreams, which is something mages have to deal with on a regular basis anyway, and wouldn't have been a problem for a mage as experienced as Marethari.

Generally you don't have the same demon whispering to you for years on end.

A free demon would prey on those in power. A trapped demon, would prey on those in a posistion to free it. Marethari was clearly unwilling to do so, and thus it turned its attention to Merrill, who was also unwilling to free it, but she was manipulable to further its own goal. The demon didn't want to possess Marethari specifically, ANY mage would've sufficed. The demon wanted one thing, and one thing only: Freedom.

Merrill would be equally unwilling to do so, and Marethari, being less experienced with demons, was easier to manipulate through Merrill.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...


If the Eluvian was corrupted by an exterior force, perhaps. However, if it was the palce it lead to which corrupted it, nothing would have changed. Merrill didn't know, and didn't care.

First, we've already been told that the Eluvians lead beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade. Which if that place was tainted, Morrigan wouldn't have gone there.

Second, even if the place it led to was the source of its taint and not the Darkspawn around and in the ruins itself, there is no reason to think that a brand new Eluvian will lead to said same place and there'd still be a corruption present in the taint.

Third, what Xilizhra said.

Marethari said a grand total of what? Four sentences to Audacity, then never interacted with it again, until she sacrificed herself for Merrill. And the demon was bound to that statue within the ruins, and couldn't influence anyone but those in its proximity. While in the camp it could only contact them in their dreams, which is something mages have to deal with on a regular basis anyway, and wouldn't have been a problem for a mage as experienced as Marethari.

7 years of having a demon subtly influencing you to do what it wants will lead you to freeing said demon.

Also, we know for a fact that Marethari knew the particular spell needed to free Audacity as well as bind it. We don't know if Merrill knew these same spells. Only that she knew spells like those were needed to free Audacity.

Her exact words were that "only powerful magic could've freed him". But we don't know if she actually knew the particular magic needed. Only that she knew the particular magic needed was powerful.

A free demon would prey on those in power. A trapped demon, would prey on those in a posistion to free it. Marethari was clearly unwilling to do so, and thus it turned its attention to Merrill, who was also unwilling to free it, but she was manipulable to further its own goal. The demon didn't want to possess Marethari specifically, ANY mage would've sufficed. The demon wanted one thing, and one thing only: Freedom.

Technically, one could argue that all demons view themselves as trapped inside of the Fade since they all want out.

Second, Merrill was also unwilling to free it -- as you said and as the game mentions -- and wouldn't be manipulated into freeing it. Not without blatant mind control anyway.


EDIT: forgot to fix the "First, second, third" thing after I deleted some of my post before I posted it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 12:43 .

[TEWR]

I'm pretty sure the Eluvian lead to the Black City, if what Tamlen described before he was corrupted is to be believed. It would certainly explain how the Eluvian got corrupted in the first place, having been channeled into the very source of all corruption.

I don't know that the Eluvian would remain corrupted after being rechanneled or destroyed, however. I suppose it's irrelevant to the plot, either way.

Tamlen explicitly states that what he's seeing is underground.

[Xilizhra]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'm pretty sure the Eluvian lead to the Black City, if what Tamlen described before he was corrupted is to be believed. It would certainly explain how the Eluvian got corrupted in the first place, having been channeled into the very source of all corruption.

I don't know that the Eluvian would remain corrupted after being rechanneled or destroyed, however. I suppose it's irrelevant to the plot, either way.

Tamlen explicitly states that what he's seeing is underground.

Truth be told, I do believe it leads to the Black City, just that the actual City is underground. And is also Arlathan.

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

Xilizhra wrote...
True, in the same way that casting a fireball could theoretically open a portal into the Fade and summon a horde of pride demons. But the possibility seems rather remote.

Theoretically, yes it could very well. Luckily the art of casting magic has long been studied by mages, and they've learned ways to prevent demon possession when they cast spells. Eluvians are alien. Completely unknown, by all except Morrigan. and last I checked, Morrigan hadn't spoken to Merrill about anything.


 

Xilizhra wrote... 
Generally you don't have the same demon whispering to you for years on end.

  
Having the same demon talk to you for years can only be easier than having to recognize a new one every time you sleep.

 

Xilizhra wrote... 
Merrill would be equally unwilling to do so, and Marethari, being less experienced with demons, was easier to manipulate through Merrill.

 
Merrill WAS equally unwilling to set the demon free. The entire point is taht Marethari was able to let go of the treasure trove of Elven lore an Eluvian undoubtably is. Merrill wasn't and Audacity could use that to manipulate her to his own ends.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Eluvian was corrupted by an exterior force, perhaps. However, if it was the palce it lead to which corrupted it, nothing would have changed. Merrill didn't know, and didn't care.

First, we've already been told that the Eluvians lead beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade. Which if that place was tainted, Morrigan wouldn't have gone there.

Third, even if the place it led to was the source of its taint and not the Darkspawn around and in the ruins itself, there is no reason to think that a brand new Eluvian will lead to said same place and there'd still be a corruption present in the taint.

Fourth, what Xilizhra said.

 
Assuming that a rebuild Eluvian leads to a new place and not the same as it originally did AND that all Eluvians lead to the same place, AND that the entirety of where the Eluvians lead is corrupted.
So basically we know squat about what an Eluvian does, except that it brings you beyond the world and the Fade. We know nothing of where it leads, and of the state of where it leads.

Problem is: it wasn't brand new. It was rebuild. Until it is activated and actually used, we will never know if it leads someplace else than it originally did. Also if it is actually BRAND NEW, then exactly what ancient lore did Merrill hope to attain?

Oh... and what was the second point?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Marethari said a grand total of what? Four sentences to Audacity, then never interacted with it again, until she sacrificed herself for Merrill. And the demon was bound to that statue within the ruins, and couldn't influence anyone but those in its proximity. While in the camp it could only contact them in their dreams, which is something mages have to deal with on a regular basis anyway, and wouldn't have been a problem for a mage as experienced as Marethari.

7 years of having a demon subtly influencing you to do what it wants will lead you to freeing said demon.

Also, we know for a fact that Marethari knew the particular spell needed to free Audacity as well as bind it. We don't know if Merrill knew these same spells. Only that she knew spells like those were needed to free Audacity.

 
Marethari was an experienced mage, yet you say that even she would fall to a demons influence over a few years, even though, as a mage, she must've dealt with many demons over several decades. I highly doubt that. Audacity was in a weakened state at that distance, and unable to harm the camp.
And since apparently Merrill feared possession when she was to confer with the demon again, she must've been able to free it too. Otherwise there would be no danger of that happening.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

A free demon would prey on those in power. A trapped demon, would prey on those in a posistion to free it. Marethari was clearly unwilling to do so, and thus it turned its attention to Merrill, who was also unwilling to free it, but she was manipulable to further its own goal. The demon didn't want to possess Marethari specifically, ANY mage would've sufficed. The demon wanted one thing, and one thing only: Freedom.

Technically, one could argue that all demons view themselves as trapped inside of the Fade since they all want out.

Second, Merrill was also unwilling to free it -- as you said and as the game mentions -- and wouldn't be manipulated into freeing it. Not without blatant mind control anyway.

Indeed she was unwilling. She wasn't unwilling to let go of the Eluvian though, and the demon used this to manipulate her.

[TEWR]

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

[Xilizhra]

Theoretically, yes it could very well. Luckily the art of casting magic has long been studied by mages, and they've learned ways to prevent demon possession when they cast spells. Eluvians are alien. Completely unknown, by all except Morrigan. and last I checked, Morrigan hadn't spoken to Merrill about anything.

And Merrill. In any case, I believe spontaneous teleportation magic would be fairly easy to detect.

Having the same demon talk to you for years can only be easier than having to recognize a new one every time you sleep.

Hardly. The one demon has time to learn all of your weaknesses, what whispers might be the most effect, etc.

Merrill WAS equally unwilling to set the demon free. The entire point is taht Marethari was able to let go of the treasure trove of Elven lore an Eluvian undoubtably is. Merrill wasn't and Audacity could use that to manipulate her to his own ends.

The Eluvian is a complete red herring, and I have no faith in Marethari's proclamation that it would release Audacity. It was simply an object to lure in Merrill and later indirectly manipulate Marethari.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

You do realize that the Dwarves themselves say that the Darkspawn came from the surface, right?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Theoretically, yes it could very well. Luckily the art of casting magic has long been studied by mages, and they've learned ways to prevent demon possession when they cast spells. Eluvians are alien. Completely unknown, by all except Morrigan. and last I checked, Morrigan hadn't spoken to Merrill about anything.

And Merrill. In any case, I believe spontaneous teleportation magic would be fairly easy to detect.

 
I don't know if teleportation and transdimensional travel is the same. I don't think an Eluvian "teleports" you anywhere. It is merely a gateway to another dimension (for lack of a better word).

Xilizhra wrote... 

Having the same demon talk to you for years can only be easier than having to recognize a new one every time you sleep.

Hardly. The one demon has time to learn all of your weaknesses, what whispers might be the most effect, etc.

 
And you would have time to learn of its weaknesses and strengths. It wokrs both ways.

Xilizhra wrote... 

Merrill WAS equally unwilling to set the demon free. The entire point is taht Marethari was able to let go of the treasure trove of Elven lore an Eluvian undoubtably is. Merrill wasn't and Audacity could use that to manipulate her to his own ends.

The Eluvian is a complete red herring, and I have no faith in Marethari's proclamation that it would release Audacity. It was simply an object to lure in Merrill and later indirectly manipulate Marethari.

They were both being manipulated. Audacity played them out against eachother perfectly, and they were both unable to let go.
I'm not trying to say that it was Merrill's fault (at least not only her's). I'm saying that they were BOTH responsible, but Marethari at least amde it clear early on that she would want nothing to do with the demon. I also dislike trying to make Merrill sound compeltely blameless in this instance, since half the blame can be laid at her feet (if not more).

[Xilizhra]

I don't know if teleportation and transdimensional travel is the same. I don't think an Eluvian "teleports" you anywhere. It is merely a gateway to another dimension (for lack of a better word).

The magic would still be on the obvious side.

And you would have time to learn of its weaknesses and strengths. It wokrs both ways.

While you're asleep? And you'd need to be actively studying it, which it's too far away to do. It has all the power.

I'm not trying to say that it was Merrill's fault (at least not only her's). I'm saying that they were BOTH responsible, but Marethari at least amde it clear early on that she would want nothing to do with the demon. I also dislike trying to make Merrill sound compeltely blameless in this instance, since half the blame can be laid at her feet (if not more).

Merrill had nothing to do with letting Audacity out in the first place, and wasn't endangering anyone.

[lobi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

Perhaps this happen way back when they they fell out with the elves and stopped their close bonds. Excess careless tunneling under Arlathan caused a collapse. The Elves went to war with the dwarves over it. The blood from their battle stained lyrium red and sundered the veil bringing magic to the Humans. The quest for the golden city may have been a quest for Arlathan and the magisters did a merideth when they found the red lyrium. Or somthing like that.
If that lyrium is being mined now because of Hawk, things could get messy.

Modifié par lobi, 09 février 2012 - 01:02 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Assuming that a rebuild Eluvian leads to a new place and not the same as it originally did AND that all Eluvians lead to the same place, AND that the entirety of where the Eluvians lead is corrupted.

 
It's not a rebuilt Eluvian. David Gaider has explicitly stated that it's a brand new Eluvian. Rebuilt would mean that Merrill used all of the old Eluvian shards.

It's a brand new one using an old shard as a base.

So basically we know squat about what an Eluvian does, except that it brings you beyond the world and the Fade. We know nothing of where it leads, and of the state of where it leads.

We can assess that the state of the place it leads to is safe given that Morrigan tossed the OGB -- or normal child -- there and felt comfortable going through herself.

I doubt she would've tossed an untrained 1.5 year old child through if it wasn't safe.

Problem is: it wasn't brand new. It was rebuild. Until it is activated and actually used, we will never know if it leads someplace else than it originally did. Also if it is actually BRAND NEW, then exactly what ancient lore did Merrill hope to attain?

It is brand new. Since those were the words of the man upstairs, it is brand new.

She's hoping to recover the ancient lore associated with the Eluvians. It stands to reason that if she can activate the portal aspect, she can go between Eluvians. If that's the case, she may see other Eluvians where ancient Elven treasure/lore/history awaits.

however, what we don't know is if the spell to the underground city -- if it requires a spell at all, though this is likely given that Morrigan needed a spell to activate the Eluvian she used. And of which people only speculate is the source of the taint that corrupted the original Eluvian -- is even known anymore. It's entirely possible that said spell to link to that particular Eluvian is forgotten entirely.

Oh... and what was the second point?

I scrapped it since I couldn't phrase it properly, but forgot to correct the numbering of the 3 points I was comfortable with.

Marethari was an experienced mage, yet you say that even she would fall to a demons influence over a few years, even though, as a mage, she must've dealt with many demons over several decades. I highly doubt that. Audacity was in a weakened state at that distance, and unable to harm the camp.

And since apparently Merrill feared possession when she was to confer with the demon again, she must've been able to free it too. Otherwise there would be no danger of that happening.

I think that being subjected to the demon's influence over the years may have gradually weakened her. Remember that he is a Pride Demon, and Marethari has pride on two counts.

The first is as a motherly figure and the second is as a Keeper. This would've strengthened the demon -- as they do feed off of those vices they love -- and made it easier for him to manipulate her.

And IIRC, Merrill said that she didn't know what could happen with simply talking to the demon, so she wanted to take precautions. That doesn't necessarily mean she knew the spell needed.

Indeed she was unwilling. She wasn't unwilling to let go of the Eluvian though, and the demon used this to manipulate her.

I still doubt that, given that she's only met/conversed with the demon 3 times. The first when she met him with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, the third when Marethari freed him.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

You do realize that the Dwarves themselves say that the Darkspawn came from the surface, right?

Incorrect. We Dwarves say that the Darkspawn first rose up from the soil beneath our feet. We say that the topsiders like to believe their fairy tales about the Darkspawn.

You are arguing with a Dwarf. Do not think you can win! 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't know if teleportation and transdimensional travel is the same. I don't think an Eluvian "teleports" you anywhere. It is merely a gateway to another dimension (for lack of a better word).

The magic would still be on the obvious side.

And you would have time to learn of its weaknesses and strengths. It wokrs both ways.

While you're asleep? And you'd need to be actively studying it, which it's too far away to do. It has all the power.

I'm not trying to say that it was Merrill's fault (at least not only her's). I'm saying that they were BOTH responsible, but Marethari at least amde it clear early on that she would want nothing to do with the demon. I also dislike trying to make Merrill sound compeltely blameless in this instance, since half the blame can be laid at her feet (if not more).

Merrill had nothing to do with letting Audacity out in the first place, and wasn't endangering anyone.

1: there is nothing obvious about the Eluvians
2: mages are fully aware while they sleep. Or at least they have learned to be.
3: Merrill had everything to do with Audacity being released. Had she only listened to Marethari, none of it would ever have happened.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

You do realize that the Dwarves themselves say that the Darkspawn came from the surface, right?

Incorrect. We Dwarves say that the Darkspawn first rose up from the soil beneath our feet. We say that the topsiders like to believe their fairy tales about the Darkspawn.

You are arguing with a Dwarf. Do not think you can win! 

940, 45th day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: I have done it. The vision the ancestors gave me has come to fruition. Today a man sat up from my forge, a man of living stone and steel. I called him golem, for the legend of those great statues animated by the dead. They are our future and our salvation.40, 60th day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: It is a horrific process. Not every man could do such a thing and survive with his mind intact. I am honored that the ancestors believe I have the strength to bear this burden and forge Orzammar's defenders.Nothing so great may be achieved without sacrifice. Nor may stone and steel walk without a spirit to animate them.40, 73rd day, 5th year of the reign of King Valtor: I have asked for volunteers. Some few answered, men of the Warrior Caste, younger sons with no property, no chance for marriage. They want to defend Orzammar from the horrors these humans have unleashed. They want to live forever in a body stronger than the finest armor. They do not ask to speak with those who have gone before.I have put off saying this, even in these pages. But I must say it now. My golems will be powered by their deaths. These brave warriors come to me, naked as the day they were born. I dress them in a skin of armor, so large it makes the burliest look no more than a babe, the anvil their first and final cradle. We are surrounded by a mile of earth on all sides. No one hears the screams as I pour molten lyrium through the eyeholes, the mouth, every joint and ****** in the armor. They silence quickly, but the smell lingers, just a trace of blood in the greater stench of hot metal. I must work fast. The armor is malleable now, as I shape it with hammer and tongs.It is not long before it moves beneath my hands, writhing and twisting with every blow. It speaks again now, a low moan, but I have learned to tune it out. I can afford no error in this craft. There can be no melted slag blinding the eyes, nor an unhewn bit of granite shackling the leg. They groan at my work, but would they rather be broken, crippled? Those I have spoken to tell me of the pain, but could they see themselves, they would see perfection.
-- From the journal of Caridin.

Bolded the important part.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 février 2012 - 01:07 .

[TEWR]

The Dwarven codex on Darkspawn begs to differ.

Got it.

The surfacers claim that the first darkspawn fell from heaven. They spin tales of magic and sin. But the Children of the Stone know better. The darkspawn rose up out of the earth. For it was in the Deep Roads they first appeared. Creatures in our own likeness, armed and armored, but with no more intelligence than tezpadam, bestial and savage.

At first they were few, easily hunted and slain by our warriors. But in the recesses of the Deep Roads, they grew in numbers and in courage. Our distant thaigs came under attack, and now it was the army, not a few warriors, being sent to deal with the creatures. Victories still came easily, though, and we thought the threat would soon be over.

We were wrong.

--As told by Shaper Czibor.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 01:20 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

I'm sorry. But I'm gonna take a firsthand witness over a secondhand source any day.

[TEWR]

lobi wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Arlathan part I also believe, but I do not believe that it's the Black City.

I believe that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn -- as Corypheus only proves he is the first Awakened Darkspawn, but not the first Darkspawn in existence.

*is currently concocting wild theory about Arlathan, the taint, and the Darkspawn being caused by Primeval Thaig Dwarves.*

Perhaps this happen way back when they they fell out with the elves and stopped their close bonds. Excess careless tunneling under Arlathan caused a collapse. The Elves went to war with the dwarves over it. The blood from their battle stained lyrium red and sundered the veil bringing magic to the Humans. The quest for the golden city may have been a quest for Arlathan and the magisters did a merideth when they found the red lyrium. Or somthing like that.

Not quite the theory I was thinking, but I like it

If that lyrium is being mined now because of Hawk, things could get messy.

He probably won't given what it did to Bartrand and Meredith and what it almost did to Varric.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm sorry. But I'm gonna take a firsthand witness over a secondhand source any day.

Given that the Dwarves keep intricate records of what happens, I'm taking Czibor's word over Caridin's.

Additionally, he isn't a firsthand witness. He was living near Orzammar, and the Darkspawn had been pressing on the Dwarves for years if not decades before Caridin came along.

The Darkspawn -- according to Chantry records -- appeared in 800 TE. Caridin wouldn't create Golems until 940 TE.

And we have nothing to indicate that Dwarves can live for 140 years. No dev comments or lore in-game. So Caridin is still a secondhand source, unless he actually saw personally what the Magisters did. He's just an ancient secondhand source.

Angus Cousland wrote...

Whatever the case, I believe what Tamlen saw is at the very least Arlathan. Eluvians would likely have been programmed to reach Arlathan in ancient times, and Arlathan is known to have been sunken deep beneath the earth during the Tevinter invasion.

This makes sense and is what I think given that Arlathan was considered the center of Elven culture.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 01:40 .