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What is your opinion on blood magic?


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#601
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'm sorry. But I'm gonna take a firsthand witness over a secondhand source any day.


Given that the Dwarves keep intricate records of what happens, I'm taking Czibor's word over Caridin's.

Additionally, he isn't a firsthand witness. He was living near Orzammar, and the Darkspawn had been pressing on the Dwarves for years if not decades before Caridin came along.

The Darkspawn -- according to Chantry records -- appeared in 800 TE. Caridin wouldn't create Golems until 940 TE.

And we have nothing to indicate that Dwarves can live for 140 years. No dev comments or lore in-game. So Caridin is still a secondhand source, unless he actually saw personally what the Magisters did. He's just an ancient secondhand source.

DG has said that Dwarves are generally long-lived, though not nearly as long as, say Tolkien Dwarves, but that they get older than the average human. Which is attributed to the Dwarves natural constitution.

Also, Dwarves keep intricate selective records. Dwarves have been known to strike entire houses from the records of history becasue of some great dishonor. I'm not really gonna take Dwarven Shapers as the best source available. Rather that we actually listen one who was there, during the fall, and who would have heard the original stories of how things came to be.

#602
TEWR

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DG has said that Dwarves are generally long-lived, though not nearly as long as, say Tolkien Dwarves, but that they get older than the average human. Which is attributed to the Dwarves natural constitution.


Where was that Gaider quote?

Also, Dwarves keep intricate selective records.


I realize that. I meant that actually. They keep intricate records for those records they do decide to hold.

#603
Abispa

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Also, Dwarves keep intricate selective records.


I realize that. I meant that actually. They keep intricate records for those records they do decide to hold.


During the Dwarven noble start of DA:O, there was a storyline where the player could pursuade a Dwarven historian to "modify" the officlal records to help a noble family save face for their Paragon. Also, I doubt King Bhelen is he first Dwarven king to abuse his power and rewrite history (as he can in some players' worlds). The records may be intricate, and still provide valuable data for historians, but their accuracy is definitely in question.

#604
Thiefy

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Blood magic seems to mess up a lot of things and gives off bad juujuu.

Have yet to see a positive example of it's use.

No thanks.

#605
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

DG has said that Dwarves are generally long-lived, though not nearly as long as, say Tolkien Dwarves, but that they get older than the average human. Which is attributed to the Dwarves natural constitution.


Where was that Gaider quote?

It is ooooooold. All the way back to production of DA:o I believe. It wasn't anyhting grand either. Just that Dwarves generally tend to become a bit older than humans. Like say, an average human in Thedas dies at 70, whereas an average dwarf may get to be 90. So it is nowhere near the "traditional" lifespan of Dwarves. Come to think of it, I can't even remember if it was DG or some other writer, just that they clarified that Dwarves do seem to have a hardier constitution than humans in Thedas.

#606
TEWR

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Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Blood magic seems to mess up a lot of things and gives off bad juujuu.

Have yet to see a positive example of it's use.

No thanks.


Joining, Phylacteries, amplification of Dalish specific healing magic that has been proven to combat the taint, the seals that helped keep Corypheus stuck where he was.

#607
TEWR

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Abispa wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Also, Dwarves keep intricate selective records.


I realize that. I meant that actually. They keep intricate records for those records they do decide to hold.


During the Dwarven noble start of DA:O, there was a storyline where the player could pursuade a Dwarven historian to "modify" the officlal records to help a noble family save face for their Paragon. Also, I doubt King Bhelen is he first Dwarven king to abuse his power and rewrite history (as he can in some players' worlds). The records may be intricate, and still provide valuable data for historians, but their accuracy is definitely in question.


I remember that side-quest, but I've only ever taken one route: The truth will be known! Gorim, please have that idiot noble killed. Publicly please. Thank you.

Still, I do believe that the Dwarves are responsible for the Darkspawn by creating Genlocks, who in turn took human and Elven captives and created the Hurlocks and Shrieks. No idea how Kossith females would've been captured, though I have had many speculative notions on how that may have been.
 
Or -- and this is a theory I've abandoned for a while now -- they're responsible for at least the Genlocks.

Basically the premise was that each race was responsible for each incarnation of Darkspawn in some way. The humans created Hurlocks in some way that didn't involve the Magisters invasion of the "Golden" City, the elves in some way for the Shrieks, the Dwarves for the Genlocks, and the Kossith for the Ogres.

#608
Thiefy

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Blood magic seems to mess up a lot of things and gives off bad juujuu.

Have yet to see a positive example of it's use.

No thanks.


Joining, Phylacteries, amplification of Dalish specific healing magic that has been proven to combat the taint, the seals that helped keep Corypheus stuck where he was.


1, 2, and 4 are debatable. Especially in the case of 1 and 4, if there was no such thing as blood magic, a lot of the cause/effect of 1 and 4 wouldn't even exsist.

And which example was #3?

#609
TEWR

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1, 2, and 4 are debatable. Especially in the case of 1 and 4, if there was no such thing as blood magic, a lot of the cause/effect of 1 and 4 wouldn't even exsist.

And which example was #3?


David Gaider confirmed that the phylacteries are in fact a form of blood magic in a recent interview. They have beneficial uses, even if they may sometimes be abused by the Templars. Or so I assume. 

It's the same with all magic and many other things not specific to mages. A tool that is prone to abuse. A tool that only certain people are able to use while the majority of the populus cannot use it, but a tool nonetheless.

The Joining is also a form of blood magic because the Reaver Joining is a form of blood magic. Both involve the imbibing of ritualized blood and both grant the drinker abilities.

We still don't know the origins of the Darkspawn. All we really know is that the Magisters did invade the Golden City and became the first Awakened Darkspawn. That's not the same thing as becoming the first Darkspawn in existence.

The Awakened Darkspawn are free of the compulsion of the Old Gods' song. The animalistic Darkspawn aren't.

#3 is Merrill. We know that she was taught Marethari's healing magic. This was established in DAO. We also know that Marethari's healing magic was able to combat the taint in Mahariel and keep him alive for 2-3 days in its unamplified form.

Finally, we know that blood magic can amplify the power of other spells. Therefore, Merrill used blood magic to amplify her healing magic to cleanse the shard of its taint.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 03:16 .


#610
EmperorSahlertz

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You can't confirm that the Joinning is blood magic, based on an entirely different ritual. We know NOTHING of what transpires during the preparation of either ritual.
Furthermore, lyrium can amplify spells just as well as blood magic. Blood magic was only needed by Merrill because she didn't have acces to lyrium.
Also, the transformation of the Magisters seems to coincide pretty well with the first spottings of Darkspawn, which smells far away of more than mere coincidence.

#611
Deano1981

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Taught by demons, Its evil, needs to be abolished. Nuff sed

#612
Thiefy

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

David Gaider confirmed that the phylacteries are in fact a form of blood magic in a recent interview. They have beneficial uses, even if they may sometimes be abused by the Templars. Or so I assume.

Yeah but at this point it's just your POV whether or not it's "good" or "bad". IMO, it's "bad", not because it's blood magic, but because the phlacteries are basically leashes used to subjegate the mages. This is coming from someone who isn't really a mage sympathizer either.

It's the same with all magic and many other things not specific to mages. A tool that is prone to abuse. A tool that only certain people are able to use while the majority of the populus cannot use it, but a tool nonetheless.

The Joining is also a form of blood magic because the Reaver Joining is a form of blood magic. Both involve the imbibing of ritualized blood and both grant the drinker abilities.

We still don't know the origins of the Darkspawn. All we really know is that the Magisters did invade the Golden City and became the first Awakened Darkspawn. That's not the same thing as becoming the first Darkspawn in existence.

The Awakened Darkspawn are free of the compulsion of the Old Gods' song. The animalistic Darkspawn aren't.

You aren't really telling me anything I don't know. :? I'm just disagreeing that this "tool" is positive.
Thing is, even before the dark spawn and arch demons, the Tevinter magisters did "bad things" with blood magic. One of them being going to the Gold City and either tainting it, or bringing the taint from there to Thedas. Where ever the darkspawn were and whatever they were doing before then, it doesn't matter because they did not bother people until after these events. Had there been no blood magic, there's a pretty good chance this would not have happened and 1)there would be no need for the joining without the darkspawn threat and 2)Corypheus would have, I assume, died of old age. Or have been killed.

#3 is Merrill. We know that she was taught Marethari's healing magic. This was established in DAO. We also know that Marethari's healing magic was able to combat the taint in Mahariel and keep him alive for 2-3 days in its unamplified form.

Finally, we know that blood magic can amplify the power of other spells. Therefore, Merrill used blood magic to amplify her healing magic to cleanse the shard of its taint.


This makes no sense. You are just assuming this could hypothetically be an example; this is not a literal, physical, in game example. I am asking for examples that can be used as proof, not "what if" situations.

First of all, Marethari was a particularly strong practioner of magic. She could send a group of people into the fade by herself, whereas it took how many people from the circle and how much lyrium to send ONE mage? Secondly Merril =/= Marethari. Merril is a student, and has potential, as all students do but she is not on par with her master. If she were, then Marethari would have stepped down and let Merril lead, but Merril still have a long way to go. Third, no one except the Devs know the true nature of blood magic; assuming it can do one thing because it can do another completely unrelated thing is illogical. Removing the taint off of an inanimate object is completely different from trying to 1)keep someone alive and 2)stop or slow down their progression into a ghoul. Merril may have been able to do something to the shard she wouldn't have been able to do to a living creature without killing it.

Comparing Merril to Marethari is like comparing Morrigan to Flemmeth. Sure all of them are great characters but when it comes to sheer power, hands down the older ladies with experience will always beat out the young ones when it's 1 vs 1.

I mean a better example to have used would have ben Avernus from Warden's Keep, except he is crazy and killed a lot of people to get where he was at. While he certainly did find a way to use blood magic to combat the taint, I wouldn't really call what he did as a "postive" example.

#613
TEWR

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You can't confirm that the Joinning is blood magic, based on an entirely different ritual. We know NOTHING of what transpires during the preparation of either ritual.


We may not, but a mage that did research on the Reavers and their Joining knows the intricacies of the Reaver Joining and was the one to call it definitely blood magic.

And because of that, the Joining is blood magic. I doubt the Wardens would go out advertising that they're using blood magic to make their order against the creatures that have been reputed to have come into existence because of blood magic.

Duncan only mentions the Wardens' use of blood magic to combat the Darkspawn in battle to a mage Warden, and only because the Warden asked about it.

Furthermore, lyrium can amplify spells just as well as blood magic. Blood magic was only needed by Merrill because she didn't have acces to lyrium.


Yes I know, but Thief-of-Hearts was saying that he/she has yet to see a positive use associated with blood magic.

Merrill's use in that particular instance to cleanse something of the taint is in fact a positive use. That unfortunate actions happened as a result of the usage are irrelevant to the fact that it is a positive usage of blood magic.

not that you said that in this post I'm quoting. I'm just stating that it was a positive use of blood magic.

Also, the transformation of the Magisters seems to coincide pretty well with the first spottings of Darkspawn, which smells far away of more than mere coincidence.


It just doesn't jive well with me for the Awakened Darkspawn to be the cause of all the Darkspawn in the world. It seems like way too much of a cop-out imo, with the only lore to back it up being Chantry dogma.

I mean, I'm fine with there being a grain of truth to the whole Magister thing. But for it to be 100% true? Doesn't jive well with me.

The best lies carry an element of truth after all.

#614
Thiefy

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[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes I know, but Thief-of-Hearts was saying that he/she has yet to see a positive use associated with blood magic.

Merrill's use in that particular instance to cleanse something of the taint is in fact a positive use. That unfortunate actions happened as a result of the usage are irrelevant to the fact that it is a positive usage of blood magic.

not that you said that in this post I'm quoting. I'm just stating that it was a positive use of blood magic.

[quote]
Merril using blood magic being positive will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think she's the best canindate (if there is such a thing) to be weilding blood magic. I think the devs picked the wrong hair color for her. ;)

#615
TEWR

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double post

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 04:02 .


#616
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This makes no sense. You are just assuming this could hypothetically be an example; this is not a literal, physical, in game example. I am asking for examples that can be used as proof, not "what if" situations.


This isn't a what if situation. This is what happened. This is a very clear cut case of what happened. It doesn't need to be thrown in the face of the player for us to know that it's what happened.

First of all, Marethari was a particularly strong practioner of magic. She could send a group of people into the fade by herself, whereas it took how many people from the circle and how much lyrium to send ONE mage?


Irrelevant. That was an ancient Somniari specific ritual that used Feynriel's home as an anchor. No doubt it helped power the spell in some weird way.

Not to mention that the spells used are different themselves. One has people being sent in to the psyche of a mage to save the particular mage from being possessed and snap him out of a coma, whereas the other has you going into the Fade to save a mage child from his willing possession.

 

Secondly Merril =/= Marethari. Merril is a student, and has potential, as all students do but she is not on par with her master. If she were, then Marethari would have stepped down and let Merril lead, but Merril still have a long way to go.


Marethari said in DAO that Merrill knew the same type of magic as her and it would be enough to have the same effects on Mahariel as Marethari's own casting of said magic.

So.... it's pretty equal methinks if the Keeper was willing to trust her First to use the same magic she taught her to combat the taint and weaken it, as Duncan later stated.

Third, no one except the Devs know the true nature of blood magic; assuming it can do one thing because it can do another completely unrelated thing is illogical.


Blood magic can amplify normal magic. This has been shown in game dozens of times and is made evident itself in the gameplay. Hence the whole 1 point of health = 4 mana or whatever. 

Removing the taint off of an inanimate object is completely different from trying to 1)keep someone alive and 2)stop or slow down their progression into a ghoul. Merril may have been able to do something to the shard she wouldn't have been able to do to a living creature without killing it.


Also irrelevant. The taint in a physical body is in the cells and is spread throughout the body, whereas in an inanimate object it is confined to said object. As such, it is easier to cleanse because the object isn't constantly pumping the taint throughout itself.



Comparing Merril to Marethari is like comparing Morrigan to Flemmeth. Sure all of them are great characters but when it comes to sheer power, hands down the older ladies with experience will always beat out the young ones when it's 1 vs 1.


I have never compared Merrill to Marethari. All I did was say that Merrill knows the same magic as Marethari, as DAO established in the Dalish Elf Origin.

I mean a better example to have used would have ben Avernus from Warden's Keep, except he is crazy and killed a lot of people to get where he was at. While he certainly did find a way to use blood magic to combat the taint, I wouldn't really call what he did as a "postive" example.


Actually, Avernus only used his fellow Wardens to discover hidden powers of the taint, whereas he used blood magic to manipulate his own blood and keep himself alive.

He didn't use his fellow Wardens to keep himself alive, as they had all died by day... 83 of his forced confinement in his tower IIRC

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 04:06 .


#617
TEWR

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Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yes I know, but Thief-of-Hearts was saying that he/she has yet to see a positive use associated with blood magic.

Merrill's use in that particular instance to cleanse something of the taint is in fact a positive use. That unfortunate actions happened as a result of the usage are irrelevant to the fact that it is a positive usage of blood magic.

not that you said that in this post I'm quoting. I'm just stating that it was a positive use of blood magic.


Merril using blood magic being positive will just have to agree to disagree. I don't think she's the best canindate (if there is such a thing) to be weilding blood magic. I think the devs picked the wrong hair color for her. ;)



How about Jowan using blood magic to defend refugees from the Darkspawn?

#618
EmperorSahlertz

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He could've used normal magic, so that isn't a good example either.

#619
DKJaigen

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He could've used normal magic, so that isn't a good example either.


Perhaps but that could have resulted in a loss of live. Jowan did the right thing. The saying is " moderation in war is stupidty" . I have no tolerance for fools if Jowan refused to use blood magic to aid common people i would have killed him.

#620
EmperorSahlertz

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And how exactly could the use of Blood Magic NOT have resulted in the loss of life?

#621
DKJaigen

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And how exactly could the use of Blood Magic NOT have resulted in the loss of life?


LOL whut?

#622
TEWR

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He could've used normal magic, so that isn't a good example either.


Considering we've established already that Darkspawn blood does work in powering spells, it is a good example.

We're talking about good uses of blood magic. Not "should blood magic have been used here". As such, despite what you may feel the game presents this as a good use of blood magic.

So it is a good example.

#623
EmperorSahlertz

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

He could've used normal magic, so that isn't a good example either.


Considering we've established already that Darkspawn blood does work in powering spells, it is a good example.

We're talking about good uses of blood magic. Not "should blood magic have been used here". As such, despite what you may feel the game presents this as a good use of blood magic.

So it is a good example.

Uhm... A good use of anything sorta constitutes that it SHOULD have been used in the given case, and that it was the correct choice of actions. I say that there were alternatives, and thus it was not the correct choice, and therefore NOT a good use of blood magic. And that is mostly because I don't think ANY situation ever calls for blood magic, unless there literally are no other choice, and even then sometimes blood magic still isn't acceptable.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 09 février 2012 - 02:17 .


#624
TEWR

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Uhm... A good use of anything sorta constitutes that it SHOULD have been used in the given case, and that it was the correct choice of actions. I say that there were alternatives, and thus it was not the correct choice, and therefore NOT a good use of blood magic. And that is mostly because I don't think ANY situation ever calls for blood magic, unless there literally are no other choice, and even then sometimes blood magic still isn't acceptable.


And in this case, blood magic was used in a good way because it was more effective in keeping civilians alive. Or are you going to argue that the Wardens should never use blood magic -- in this case, I'm referring to actual spells and not the Joining being blood magic -- to defeat the Darkspawn because they should use normal magic?

The Blight changes everything.

Blood magic kills Darkspawn a lot quicker. If Jowan can keep a Darkspawn archer from killing refugees by either: 1) using its blood to power a fireball spell to toss into the rest or 2) manipulating its body to fire arrows at the other Darkspawn, are you going to tell me that isn't a good use? That it's a bad use instead? That he should've just used his connection to the Fade to toss a weaker fireball into the horde.

If he had used normal magic, that Darkspawn archer might have fired one arrow that could've killed one refugee. Sure he would've killed the Darkspawn through accepted magic, but people would've died.

Whereas if he uses blood magic on the Darkspawn, he can keep that refugee alive and take out the Darkspawn.

The Blight is a war and the main priority is keeping as many civilians alive as possible without them dying, whatever the means. Jowan has already shown that he will not sacrifice innocents to power his spells -- he's extremely apprehensive about the idea of using Isolde -- and that he will protect the innocents using whatever means he has at his disposal.

It's for these reasons that I think Jowan could've been a decent Warden. He's already shown enough character to fit into the Order, even if he's blundered many times in the past.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 09 février 2012 - 03:02 .


#625
EmperorSahlertz

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A whole lot of spells out there have an instant, or almost instant effect, no need for blood magic to achieve that either.