886 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Wynne and Anders can become blood mages themselves in Origins. It's just gameplay mechanics that they can be subjected to this too.

For Wynne it's gameplay. Anders in Awakening was fine with being a blood mage. Then in DAII he isn't okay with blood mages.

Don't know why though. Maybe because of Justice's influence and how demons are the primary -- but not necessarily the only -- means of learning it. Maybe he had a traumatic experience with blood magic that made him hate it.

Anyway, it just wouldn't make sense for a character like Fenris -- who abhors blood magic and blood mages -- to suddenly allow his blood to be used in a blood magic spell simply because it's Hawke performing the spell. It would go against his character.

So I have no clue whether to ignore the gameplay because it has no real bearing on the situation or believe that using the blood of your foes is just as possible and you don't need consent to do so.

EDIT: And I always do love making Wynne a blood mage. Always makes me laugh.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 février 2012 - 02:19 .

[lobi]

Toggle ability and pots in tactics if your misguided BM has scruples. Blood mage need never use sacrifice. Npc can use it effectivly if tactics properly with on off.
I use sacrifice to add roleplay elements during combat, gives npcs another reason to get cranky. Great fun draining dry the annoying chars as well. I love the 'wish you wouldnt do that comments'.

[Xilizhra]

So I have no clue whether to ignore the gameplay because it has no real bearing on the situation or believe that using the blood of your foes is just as possible and you don't need consent to do so.

I'm just going by the way the spell works. Especially since Fenris would probably leave outright if you unwillingly drained him.

I love the 'wish you wouldnt do that comments'.

Wait, those happen?

[ProneToGlory]

Gameplay wise, depends on the mage I'm playing with. But, story wise though, I feel blood mage is the beginning of an extreme. I've always sides with the Templars in believing that blood magic is too far, and it needs to be contained and quelled. It's just too dangerous.

[lobi]

Xilizhra wrote...

So I have no clue whether to ignore the gameplay because it has no real bearing on the situation or believe that using the blood of your foes is just as possible and you don't need consent to do so.

I'm just going by the way the spell works. Especially since Fenris would probably leave outright if you unwillingly drained him.

I love the 'wish you wouldnt do that comments'.

Wait, those happen?

Yep I remember friendly fire responses from rivals. Avaline is a very angry girl sometimes. But that just may be my interpretation. Takes more investment to be CE when roleplaying an alignment that does not really exist in the ip anymore.
Reaper passive makes sense. I always give Fenris back to his family before BM tree is full. Maybe I will keep him next time, if there is a next time..

Modifié par lobi, 10 février 2012 - 06:01 .

[erilben]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wynne and Anders can become blood mages themselves in Origins. It's just gameplay mechanics that they can be subjected to this too.

For Wynne it's gameplay. Anders in Awakening was fine with being a blood mage. Then in DAII he isn't okay with blood mages.

Don't know why though. Maybe because of Justice's influence and how demons are the primary -- but not necessarily the only -- means of learning it. Maybe he had a traumatic experience with blood magic that made him hate it.

Anders' hatred of blood magic was apparently always there. Anders' Awakening page says "It's a lucky thing that Anders despises blood mages as much as the Chantry does, else he might have been executed as a suspected maleficarum long ago."

[DKJaigen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you actually need everything at your disposal, you have already lost. Make do with less, or not at all.

As i said before the ones who try this **** will go down in the history books as worm food. Do you know who thought as stupidly as you do < Hitler. By not putting the entire german economy to warfare during the beginning of WW2 he lost. He was so confident of the German army he expected that the war in the east would be a short one. Good thing for us he was completely wrong.

Its estimated that the german army would have 2.7 times more material if he did this at the beginning of operation Barbarrosa. If the German army had that much material at the start it would have ended the entire world war their and then in the favor of Germany.

For me its not a question if mages should be using bloodmagic. For me its mandatory that mages learn bloodmagic as soon as possible.

Wow, you're bring up Hitler, and in a blatantly incorrect context as well.

What mages need is practical training. They need to learn unit tactics and strategy, to be able to fire masses of spells in a coordinated manner, not to use flashy, arcane spells which might have some short term benefit, but is absolutely impossible to control or to use practically.

Blood magic is not the be-all-end-all power in magic. If you want a proper analogy, think about all of the fancy tech the Third Reich was churning out - rockets, fancy tanks with awesome new gear, jets, etc. And while their advances were important later, it was the Allies being able to mass produce individually inferior, but vastly more cost-effective and practical equipment, that won the war.

Sure, blood magic might amplify power, and it might be a substitute for lyrium, but it has serious drawbacks (extreme blood loss, demons, etc.) Mages would neglect training to be actual soldiers and instead training in blood magic. The Templars would throw everyone they have at the inexperienced mages and bleed them down.

Leave military history to me. Their is nothing fancy about tiger tanks that could destroy entire groups of shermans. One of the reasons  why Germany lost is because their economy didnt switch to war economy till 1943. At this point the industrial output nearly doubled despite allied bombings.

Their is also nothing fancy about bloodmagic. If a mage runs out of mana he can switch to bloodmagic. If his magic is disrupted by templars he can switch to bloodmagic. If he encounters highly resistant templars he can switch to bloodmagic. In short bloodmagic is mandatory for the mages to win the coming war.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Blood magic involves cutting yourself open, or harvesting the blood of your allies. That makes it that much easier for the Templars to attack and kill them. Spilling gallons of your own blood does not do wonders for a mage's survivability. And what happens when a handful of blood mages become abominations and start killing friendly soldiers? They're mindless beasts after all, and pretty much every random blood mage mook will eventually turn. It would wreck any cohesion within an army. Blood magic is a recipe for abject disaster.

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you actually need everything at your disposal, you have already lost. Make do with less, or not at all.

So if I'm ever put in a position where I need to defend myself against a legion of armed bandits and I just have the clothes on my back and a fork to fight with, I shouldn't ask for armor, a sword, and a shield? I should make do with clothes and a fork or do without?

Can't really use this analogy on an individual note. The point is: if you need to exhaust every last resource you got, just to win one battle. Then you will lose the war.

[DKJaigen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Blood magic involves cutting yourself open, or harvesting the blood of your allies. That makes it that much easier for the Templars to attack and kill them. Spilling gallons of your own blood does not do wonders for a mage's survivability. And what happens when a handful of blood mages become abominations and start killing friendly soldiers? They're mindless beasts after all, and pretty much every random blood mage mook will eventually turn. It would wreck any cohesion within an army. Blood magic is a recipe for abject disaster.

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

1. Dead templars cannot kill you.

2. Mages can recuperate much faster because of healing magic.

3. Blood mages are far les likely to become abominations then standard mages. Only the initial deal to acquire the knowledge is risky

4. Yes both side suck at tactics.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you actually need everything at your disposal, you have already lost. Make do with less, or not at all.

So if I'm ever put in a position where I need to defend myself against a legion of armed bandits and I just have the clothes on my back and a fork to fight with, I shouldn't ask for armor, a sword, and a shield? I should make do with clothes and a fork or do without?

Can't really use this analogy on an individual note. The point is: if you need to exhaust every last resource you got, just to win one battle. Then you will lose the war.

Since when are we discussing a single battle? ****** of emperor. You trying to twist words again

[Xilizhra]

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

Well, it's quite possible that they were Silenced and couldn't cast any spells until it was too late. I don't think that's conclusive.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

Well, it's quite possible that they were Silenced and couldn't cast any spells until it was too late. I don't think that's conclusive.

Silence is short-range, both in the lore and in gameplay. Meredith herself had to be right behind a Saarebas to use it.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 février 2012 - 05:22 .

[Xilizhra]

So they used it as they began charging in.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Xilizhra wrote...

So they used it as they began charging in.

The mages didn't offer any counterattack until the Templars were right in front of them. They're armed with weapons that can shoot targets several yards away with perfect accuracy. The Templars should have been ripped to pieces as soon as they charged in - through one door, without any cover. Do you realize how silly the blood mage advocacy is when the mages hadn't even grasped how to use mass fire techniques to overwhelm a charging enemy?

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 10 février 2012 - 06:48 .

[Xilizhra]

I think a lot of that involves freezing for psychological reasons, not tactical incompetence, if it is a problem.

[TEWR]

Yea it's probably a case of being scared ****less because this was the first battle most of the mages had been in.

[CrimsonZephyr]

I'll give you that one, but my point still stands. Talking about using blood magic is presumptuous and ill-thought when more pressing and practical concerns for the mages have not even been addressed - i.e. they are not yet trained as soldiers. Blood magic means nothing if they can't take the stresses of combat.

[dragonflight288]

Blood magic involves cutting yourself open, or harvesting the blood of your allies. That makes it that much easier for the Templars to attack and kill them. Spilling gallons of your own blood does not do wonders for a mage's survivability. And what happens when a handful of blood mages become abominations and start killing friendly soldiers? They're mindless beasts after all, and pretty much every random blood mage mook will eventually turn. It would wreck any cohesion within an army. Blood magic is a recipe for abject disaster.

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

How on Thedas would the mages know how to fight a battle if they had lived in the Gallows their whole lives? Most had never seen a fight. They are told day in and day out that they are cursed beings and that magic is responsible for the blights. They are terrified of the templars who can neutralize their power, and have long sharp swords aimed at their hearts just because they're mages and Meredith is blaming the circle for the actions of an apostate not even related to them.

The Circle (even if Hawke doesn't see it) has children barely passing adolescence.

If they had more experience in battle or knowledge of tactics (which I'm positive the templars wouldn't like. They cancelled personal combat training in Ferelden, having mages learn how to fight with standard weapons) then they could easily have taken over the choke point. But they don't.

[CrimsonZephyr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic involves cutting yourself open, or harvesting the blood of your allies. That makes it that much easier for the Templars to attack and kill them. Spilling gallons of your own blood does not do wonders for a mage's survivability. And what happens when a handful of blood mages become abominations and start killing friendly soldiers? They're mindless beasts after all, and pretty much every random blood mage mook will eventually turn. It would wreck any cohesion within an army. Blood magic is a recipe for abject disaster.

And mages first need to understand basic tactics. For one, those mages in Kirkwall? They had a fantastic chokepoint...which they failed to exploit. They let the Templars in...and promptly allowed themselves to be flanked. And when surrounded by swordsmen, instead of clustering and offering a concentrated counterattack, they remained spread out and allowed squads of Templars to kill them one by one. These are basic tactics any sword&bow army worth its salt would know, yet the mages seem incapable of utilizing. And in the face of such fundamental deficiencies, you're telling me that a mass of mages that can't even act like a proper army needs to use a ridiculously volatile art that could inflict as many friendly casualties as it could enemy losses? What utter lunacy.

How on Thedas would the mages know how to fight a battle if they had lived in the Gallows their whole lives? Most had never seen a fight. They are told day in and day out that they are cursed beings and that magic is responsible for the blights. They are terrified of the templars who can neutralize their power, and have long sharp swords aimed at their hearts just because they're mages and Meredith is blaming the circle for the actions of an apostate not even related to them.

The Circle (even if Hawke doesn't see it) has children barely passing adolescence.

If they had more experience in battle or knowledge of tactics (which I'm positive the templars wouldn't like. They cancelled personal combat training in Ferelden, having mages learn how to fight with standard weapons) then they could easily have taken over the choke point. But they don't.

The children fight or they die. And if they're incapable of doing so, they are killed to make room for those who can. If they use blood magic, or are disobedient, they are flogged.

I clearly explained exactly how mages could hold that choke point. Anyone with two brain cells could have figured out that using long distance attacks to pummel a charging enemy whose weapons reach only three feet in front of them is the logical choice. You sell mages too short.

And if they can't figure that much out, they deserve to die because they aren't strong enough to survive without blood magic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 13 février 2012 - 07:46 .

[Lazy Jer]

My opinion on blood magic.  It's a very dangerous tool that should be avoided.  Merrill may use blood magic, but I'd honestly be hard pressed to call her a Blood Mage.  We really only know about her using it twice that I know of.  Once in connection with the magic mirror (too lazy to look up the spelling) and once to open the way to the mountain top.

Fact is that blood magic involves demons and demons cause trouble.  They possess people, burn things, drink my last beer, and are, generally speaking, unpleasant.  It should be avoided as much as possible and then avoided some more for good measure.

P.S. Sorry I'm late the the argume- I mean discussion.

[TEWR]

drink my last beer

Those fiends! How could they be so cruel?! They are the lowest of the low, the vilest of them all!

Additionally:

too lazy to look up the spelling

Fitting that you live up to your name!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 février 2012 - 02:22 .

[Malanu]

Blood magic is Evil. Nuff Said.

[Lazy Jer]

Malanu wrote...

Blood magic is Evil. Nuff Said.

Well as long as Nuff said it we should definately take that into consideration.  Nuff is said to be very knowledgable on such things.