886 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanu]

Blood magic requires the taking and using of blood, and for some of the higher powered spells life sacrificing. normally it also puts the user in direct threat of Demonic possession, to that end it is evil. So I then quoted Stan Lee. This Nuff person... I don't know

[Lazy Jer]

He must be one of Stan's friends.

[Lazy Jer]

DKJaigen wrote...

3. Blood mages are far les likely to become abominations then standard mages. Only the initial deal to acquire the knowledge is risky

citation needed

[DKJaigen]

Lazy Jer wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

3. Blood mages are far les likely to become abominations then standard mages. Only the initial deal to acquire the knowledge is risky

citation needed

Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of
this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own
purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by
consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile,
but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see
it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to
the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably
violent and self-destructive discipline, however, the Blood Mage must be
careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there.


Very simply put. If a mage needs mana he needs to open a connection to the fade and thus risk demonic possesion. Bloodmages dont have that problem.

[Malanu]

Lazy Jer wrote...

He must be one of Stan's friends.

As often as Stan mentioned him you may be right!

[Malanu]

Lazy Jer wrote...

He must be one of Stan's friends.

You may be onto something Lazy.

[Sons of Horus]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lazy Jer wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

3. Blood mages are far les likely to become abominations then standard mages. Only the initial deal to acquire the knowledge is risky

citation needed

Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of
this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own
purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by
consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile,
but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see
it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to
the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably
violent and self-destructive discipline, however, the Blood Mage must be
careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there.


Very simply put. If a mage needs mana he needs to open a connection to the fade and thus risk demonic possesion. Bloodmages dont have that problem.

Wasn't that just taken from the website of DA2 classes rather than the in game lore or the novels ? I’m not sure if its accurate given it may be just marketing or some outdated ideas, given how much every time I saw a blood mage in DA2 a demon would pop up during or before the fight.

[DKJaigen]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Wasn't that just taken from the website of DA2 classes rather than the in game lore or the novels ? I’m not sure if its accurate given it may be just marketing or some outdated ideas, given how much every time I saw a blood mage in DA2 a demon would pop up during or before the fight.

Its the only information we currently have about the workings of bloodmagic so i will stick to it. The theory that mages are in danger of possesion when tapping into the fade to aquire mana is also confirmed in the latest novell. But you are also correct that bloodmages have the ability to summoning demons. But so far it seems that BM are at  less risk of possesion if they simply use bloodmagic to fuel normal spells.

The theory is also logical. After all blood is already present on thedas while mana is not.

[dragonflight288]

With the chantry destroying all sources of learning blood magic, demons are usually the only source.

But Irving had books on Blood Magic taken from the library, just after the rumors of Jowan being a blood mage started. Which means Jowan had full access to the blood magic books until just before the Origin started.

It's entirely plausible that blood magic can be learned from books without a need for any demon. And once learned, there is no need to be in communication with a demon.

Kind of like a deal with the devil though, or a wish with a genie-such deals and wishes usually end up more trouble than they're worth. So learning blood magic from a source not related to demons is the safest bet to avoid possession, and once learned, the safest route to avoid it as well.

[hitenchi]

 Blood magic is by no means inheriently evil, it is just that its nature makes it seem more morbid and less sociably acceptable than other forms of magic. The main reason why it was banned by the chantry is the fact that the it can be used to fuel magic without the use of lyrim, which they control and the fact that the tevinter imperium used it. This helps to limit the strength of spell that can be cast by mages in general. Blood magic does not need to be learnt from a demon, it is just that demons know are one of the few remains beings that know how. While the teventir imperium used blood magic for what can defiently be called evil use, the elves of old did not, there imoraltality may have even come from it, and i think most keepers practise blood magic. In DA2 we are in a situation were the mages are being mistreated and people who are pushed into the corner tend to bite back, and mages can bite back hard. Lastly people say all the blood magic tree is bad, but that is because blood magic is only used as a last resort, i am sure that blood magic used in the right could heal, buff and protect allies, it the fact that too litlle is no other than to use it in its most basic form. Also the reason why blood magic can summon demons is because blood magic is more effiecient that mana and so far less of it is needed, with enough lyrim you can do the same thing.

Modifié par hitenchi, 19 février 2012 - 03:37 .

[hitenchi]

Btw i do think than the circle is needed, however i think it should be more along the line of a compulsory school rather than a prison. It would still have to take mage's phylactery's but in general i think mage's should be allowed greater freedom.

[hitenchi]

Btw i do think that the mage circles should exist but they should be more compulsory schools rather than prisions. Listening to Duncan you do get the feeling that the chantary does overplay things, especially since grey wardens are allowed to use blood magic and many have. While mage's are dangerous and should defiently been kept under some sought of watch, i.e- phylacetery's, locking up a person with lots of power will only cause a revoultion, the situation of DA2 is a perfect example of this.

[hitenchi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Are we talking about Justice as the spirit-turned-demon? Because I don't entirely agree with Merrill's opinion that demons and spirits are essentially the same. They share many characteristics, but demons first and foremost want to live in the mortal realm, while spirits first care for whatever virtue they've decided to embody. Justice might be a corrupted and at times malevolent spirit, but he is not a demon in the same sense as Desire and Pride. I'm not sure how you could make one benevolent, though, unless you managed to make them more interested in the Fade than in possessing mortals

Well, my comment wasn't aimed at just Justice (hah, that sounds funny). More like, what if Audacity could become Patience?

Also, I believe that Justice is a spirit and a demon (the result of Anders' hatred of Templars) intertwined as one being. He is both, yet he is neither.

As for spirits and demons being the same, I have to disagree with you. They are, in a sense, like humanity. Humans all want different things, but we are all the same (so to speak).

I think it was one of the codexs from dragon age orgins, there is no difference between demons and spirits other than their intentions. Also what we do no know is whether all of the emotions/ traits represented by demon are all evil. While pride is considered a sin, pride is fundamental to the self fuliment of humanity, so while we know that many pride demons (spirits) are evil, we don't know if any good because the ones we consider to be evil are the ones who want to interact with humans and even then they are not exactly evil, just manipulative and untrusworthy.

[hitenchi]

Icy Magebane wrote...

I'm still not convinced. There's no reason to assume that blood magic can be learned from books simply because the PC can... I mean, if it were that simple, why wouldn't this be common knowledge among all Circle mages? They could easily overthrow the Chantry if they all used blood magic that could be learned without the aid of demons. If this was possible, why keep it a secret, and even worse, why would the ones who know about this keep it a secret from other mages who are similarly "oppressed?"

No, I think it all boils down to game mechanics... unfortunately, it's a reality we have to face sometimes. We're talking about a video game, and as realistic as it may seem at times, we have to face the fact that developers only go so far in ensuring that the world is consistent. Blood magic is an example of them putting the availability of the specialization to the player ahead of a realistic representation based on lore. At least, that's the case post-DA:O... at least in DA:O, you had to actually deal with a demon on some level (or just load a game where you'd done it previously, which I do not agree with...  ) in order to learn it. The DA:A spec books just threw everything out the window, and that includes Arcane Warrior, which should also only be possible under specific circumstances...

Personally, I don't think specs should ever be possible without an associated quest. Like, I never pick Reaver until I've killed the first dragon in DA2, and I don't pick Templar until Act 2, when it's at least somewhat plausible that Hawke could have joined the order in the preceding 3 years... but that's just me. It's probably more convenient for most people to have it accessible at any time.

I also want to add that I don't believe we ever found out exactly how Jowan learned blood magic.  A lot of people seem to assume he learned it from books, but I see no evidence of this.  Just because he was a nice guy doesn't mean he didn't deal with demons... and as far as I know, you can't learn this magic from a book unless you are the PC or the PC's companion.  Plus, you shouldn't forget how many blood mages were in the Ferelden Circle... it's possible that Jowan was part of that group, and that they all learned this magic from demons... it's hard to say.

Lmao, do you not realise that is why the chantary keeps it secret and demonises it, to make sure the mages do not overthrow them, i think it is said in orgins that the chantasry destroyed most books relating to blood magic, it is just that demons live long and so know about it, there are lots of hints that blood magic is unrelated to demosn, or atleast as much as magic is.

[SkittlesKat96]

I reckon the Chantry is too afraid of Blood magic. Its very dangerous but I don't think its all that bad.

They only sent 6 or 7 mages to the Battle of Ostagar when they could have sent more than twice that much.

It wouldn't have saved the day (only Loghain and possibly Flemeth could have stopped it from becoming such a catastrophe) but that isn't the point.

EDIT: That sort of leans more towards the 'Mages need more freedom' argument but still

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 19 février 2012 - 04:53 .

[hitenchi]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

You know the whole, protect yourself from a blood mage, by having your own blood mage, but what if they betray you thing is moot. Because Kings and such protect themselves from guys with swords and stuff, by giving other guys swords and stuff and telling them to stand next to them, its no different. And that practice still holds true today, just with guns. where they don't even have to be that close to you. The point is, your only suppose to have people around you, you can trust, no matter what they can do or what they have on them.

Dead is dead. But that is far from the point. A blood mage does not have to kill you, he can force you, without you ever realizing, to make decisions you wouldn't on your own. He can literally be your puppetmaster. A councillor can only go so far in manipulation, after that it must be a knife in the back.

And I doubt the Litany of Adralla is easy to replicate, if possible at all, or it would already have been done.

Emperor ignorance is not a strenght in such matters. You need people that can identify rogue bloodmages and the only way to do so is being a bloodmage as they are the only ones who understand this type of magic. Also their are plenty of honourable people among the mages that will keep true to their mission. and with some peer revieuw you can have a well discplined taskforce that removes rogue bloodmages without succumbing to corruption.

The best manipulaters always appear honorable, and incapable of deciet. The man you trust the most, can easily be your worst enemy, when it comes to the game of power.

I'm sure there are honorable folk amongst the mages, and luckily enough, you don't need to be a blood mage to protect against it. Bethany breaks Idunna's hold over Hawke, and Bethany is most certainly not a blood mage.

Anyone can manipulate someone else, it is just the fact that a blood mage is able to do it easier in some ways, and forcefully, however you can not stop blood magic, the proble is if you do not atleast teach some level about blood magic then the only people using blood magic will be the people who you least want to, since all mages have a last resort access to blood magic.

[Get Magna Carter]

 I consider blood magic to be a path to temptation and corruption (the fact that it is learnt from demons is a clue that there is something wrong with it).  The more it's used the more natural it seems to use it again and so the desire to do so increases.

Okay, it's not bad to use your own blood...but you only have so much.
And in the middle of a fight where blood is being shed anyway it isn't bad to put that blood to use...but there isn't always a fight when you want it..or enough blood from the fight.
Of course, if you're using it in a good cause maybe someone will volunteer to let you use their blood...of course the sort of people to volunteer for such things don't tend to associate with blood mages.
Or you could go for bad people like rapists and murderers ..of course you can't always find one when you need one.

And it's not that big a leap to pick someone at random deciding that if they are good they would volunteer and if not they deserve it....

[EmperorSahlertz]

It isn't literally blood that is used, but the lifeforce of a living being. At least if Jowan is to be believed. So you can't really use the blood of a dead person to fuel your blood magic, or at least not nearly as much as a living person can (The spell "Graverobber" uses the residual lifeforce of a dead opponent to heal the blood mage).

[hitenchi]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

FemaleMageFan wrote...

From past analsys we can see that blood magic never brings good. So what i don't get is why some parties still support it. It is very powerful yes but my opinion on it is like a nuclear bomb. Powerful ut not necessary.

That's incorrect. The Joining is blood magic, the phylacteries are blood magic, Merrill used blood magic to cleanse the taint from the Eluvian shard, and Jowan used blood magic to protect refugees from the Darkspawn.

And before anyone says anything about Jowan and Redcliffe, blood magic had absolutely nothing to do with what happened there.

The joinning and phylacteries are NOT blood magic. They can be VIEWED as blood magic. It all comes down to how you define blood magic. If blood is simply required to be involved, then yes you could call it blood magic, you would be wrong, but you could. For it to be blood magic, blood has to power the spell, and since lyrium is involved in both cases, blood hardly powers the spell.

While you have a point about phylacteries i am pretty sure lore-wise the joinging most defiently is a form of blood magic. Also from the lore there are mutliple examples in which it suggests demons are not needed but they are one of the few left with the knowledge. I am not saying that blood magic is safe but what i will say is that one it casts all spells more efficiently, including healing, and we only know the ways use it created by mostly ruthless people.

[Megaton_Hope]

It's kind of ambiguous. Generally, "blood mages" are using magic to do very evil things. However, there is the question of whether that is the magic, or the mage. In-game chatter between Merill and Anders suggests that it is super risky because blood mages are flirting with demonic possession, but that seems to be a standard risk for mages. Plus, possession by spirits doesn't seem to have universally detrimental effects. Wynne survives into Awakening with a spirit keeping her heart beating. (Maybe with regular excursions into the Fade using lyrium, I don't know.) The Warden can unlock her mage specialization or Justice's Warrior specialization, both of which entail just such a hasty connection to the spirit world.

Burning life energy to power your spells, which seems to be a more generally valid model for what the heck blood magic actually is, is a pretty despicable thing to do...if it's not your own life. (And it can be your own, blood mages cut themselves quite a bit.)

Mind control, well...that's pretty messed up. Even if you're doing it "for the greater good."

And that stuff Avernus was doing, that's just twisted.

[Gabey5]

No one is able to handle it. Using it it should be a death sentence

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Let me see, blood magic evil? No, considering the game (with DLC) has at least two blood mages that never became abominations and were basically decent people - three if you make your Hawke a blood mage as well.

Dangerous? Of course but then learning to control any magic is dangerous. The Chantry has a problem with it because it can be used as a form of mind control (thralls) but then, does nor tranquility do the same thing? (only the blood mage has to keep casting the spell to maintain their hold, Templars do it once and it's permanent.)

As for blood magic being powered by demons, sure but then all magic is. Mages draw their power from the fade and, since it is the will of beings in the fade that shape the fade and, the First Children rarely have anything to do with mortals, then the fade has got to be shaped by a demon or a dreamer, either you are drawing on the mind of another mortal, or you are drawing on the mind of a demon 99.9% of the time when you cast a spell.

I think of blood magic as one of, if not the most powerful and dangerous school but, not beyond safe control by a highly skilled mage. Where the trouble comes is when those who lack the self control, disipline and wisdom to use it carefully attempt to wield blood magic. The demos will take a weak mind any way they can get it. That's why even Tehrone had to imprison and thus weaken mental resistance of the Templars to get demons to possess them. A demon cannot possess you unless you allow it to do so, and with a strong will, that will not happen. So there are a few that can handle blood magic and never have a problem because of it.

In short, it's the mage not the magic that is the problem. A bit like a gun - guns don't kill people, people using guns kill people.

[gaurdian9sunshine]

 I do not think there is anything inheriently evil or wrong about blood magic. The problem of blood magic lies within the fact that if and when a demon takes control of the mage's mind, he or she is not able to be obviously identifiable an abomination at first glance. Maybe after they speak you can tell, or if the person isn't reasonable. Like all other magic it is dangerous. If the mage is careful like Merill or Jowan I don't see a problem in using it.

[Sons of Horus]

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

 I do not think there is anything inheriently evil or wrong about blood magic. The problem of blood magic lies within the fact that if and when a demon takes control of the mage's mind, he or she is not able to be obviously identifiable an abomination at first glance. Maybe after they speak you can tell, or if the person isn't reasonable. Like all other magic it is dangerous. If the mage is careful like Merill or Jowan I don't see a problem in using it.

To be honest, I have never thought of Jowan being careful, Blood magic or otherwise. He nearly killed Gregor, the First enchanter, a few templars, lily and the mage warden though a rash use of blood magic.

Modifié par Sons of Horus, 24 février 2012 - 08:08 .

[gaurdian9sunshine]

Sons of Horus wrote...

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

 I do not think there is anything inheriently evil or wrong about blood magic. The problem of blood magic lies within the fact that if and when a demon takes control of the mage's mind, he or she is not able to be obviously identifiable an abomination at first glance. Maybe after they speak you can tell, or if the person isn't reasonable. Like all other magic it is dangerous. If the mage is careful like Merill or Jowan I don't see a problem in using it.

To be honest, I have never thought of Jowan being careful, Blood magic or otherwise. He nearly killed Gregor, the First enchanter, a few templars, lily and the mage warden though a rash use of blood magic.

Maybe Jowan wasn't the best example. If you choose to release him, he helps people along the road that are threatened by darkspawn. Most of the blood mages you meet in DA:2, the demon already has a strong foothold on their mind. A lot of them attack you on site because you are there. Yea, Jowan did overcome all those templars and the first enchanter and escape, but later on, he seems fully in control of himself and he seems like he really wants to atone for what he has done. What other blood mage can say that?