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[Xilizhra]

I seriously doubt Jowan was nearly powerful enough to kill them; I'm fairly sure they were just stunned.

[dragonflight288]

But still, a single apprentice overcoming that many templars and escaping from a tower on the middle of a lake...not bad.

[Silfren]

Just a quick note from me on the question whether things like the Joining or the use of Phylacteries are blood magic, since I see that debate happening here. Several in-game sources equate the Joining with blood magic, as I recall, and as for the phylacteries, well...there is a passage in Gaider's Asunder novel where the templar whatsherface acknowledges that phylacteries are blood magic.

Seems to me the Chantry would have a vested interest in denying that using phylacteries to track down rogue mages is blood magic, if they felt there was a viable argument to allow it.

That a templar doesn't deny it as such, and considers the inherent hypocrisy of phylacteries, speaks volumes. Seems like she wouldn't have held that opinion of phylacteries as "approved blood magic" if she had been taught that it patently is not blood magic at all.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Just a quick note from me on the question whether things like the Joining or the use of Phylacteries are blood magic, since I see that debate happening here. Several in-game sources equate the Joining with blood magic, as I recall, and as for the phylacteries, well...there is a passage in Gaider's Asunder novel where the templar whatsherface acknowledges that phylacteries are blood magic.

I think you're thinking of Ser Evangeline.  Althought what she said was that was a bit too much like blood magic for her tastes. 

Seems to me the Chantry would have a vested interest in denying that using phylacteries to track down rogue mages is blood magic, if they felt there was a viable argument to allow it.

That a templar doesn't deny it as such, and considers the inherent hypocrisy of phylacteries, speaks volumes. Seems like she wouldn't have held that opinion of phylacteries as "approved blood magic" if she had been taught that it patently is not blood magic at all.

I haven't read too much on the subject  I've gotten far enough into the book to know that Ser Evangeline considers it too close to blood magic, but thinks of it as a bit of hypocrisy for the greater good.  The Templar Order itself probably doesn't ring in a whole lot on the subject of the phylacteries.

[Rifneno]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I think you're thinking of Ser Evangeline.  Althought what she said was that was a bit too much like blood magic for her tastes. 

It's magic.  It requires and uses blood.  If a mage was doing it, this would be open and shut.  I'm not buying the double standard.  It's blood magic.

[dragonflight288]

As far as I'm concerned, the Chantry denies that their templars use a form of magic with their negating magic. What they do is just lesser version of spells from the School of Spirit. My Amell mage mastered the school of spirit and was an Arcane Warrior, and he might as well have been an overpowered templar. Alistair says the Chantry doesn't look at it that way though.

From my view, the Chantry as an organization won't recognize something as magic unless it's being done by a mage. If a non-mage does it, like the templars using phylacteries, then it must obviously not be magic at all. (sarcasm)

Finn in Witch Hunt needed Dalish blood to track down the Lights of Arlathan. He called that a grey area, because the blood wasn't needed to power the spell, but it was required for the spell to even work. And Finn is a mage.

In my mind, if blood is at all needed in the spell. To power it or simply as a component of the spell or ritual, then it's blood magic. It needs blood. It's only NOT blood magic if there is no blood used in any way, shape, or form.

At least that's my view. Many may disagree, but it narrows down the grey areas into a yes or no sort of deal. Either it is or it isn't. Either it requires blood or it doesn't.

The phylactery requires blood, so it is blood magic. If it could be done to track down mages without blood, then it isn't blood magic. But it does.

Pretty cut and dry by my logic and others may disagree, but hey, that's why we have these debates.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 26 février 2012 - 08:43 .

[Silfren]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I haven't read too much on the subject  I've gotten far enough into the book to know that Ser Evangeline considers it too close to blood magic, but thinks of it as a bit of hypocrisy for the greater good.  The Templar Order itself probably doesn't ring in a whole lot on the subject of the phylacteries.

Evangeline, yes. 

I'll have to pull out my e-book of Asunder now and track down that reference.  I remember reading it as Evangeline musingon that the Chantry was being hypocritcal and defending its hypocrisy by calling it the greater good, not that she herself thought the greater good made the hypocrisy acceptable.  I took it as her personal commentary on the irony of the Chantry unyielding stance that the use of blood magic was only ever evil and indefensible, even as use of it by the Chantry was codified into standard Circle procedure.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

Evangeline, yes. 

I'll have to pull out my e-book of Asunder now and track down that reference.  I remember reading it as Evangeline musingon that the Chantry was being hypocritcal and defending its hypocrisy by calling it the greater good, not that she herself thought the greater good made the hypocrisy acceptable.  I took it as her personal commentary on the irony of the Chantry unyielding stance that the use of blood magic was only ever evil and indefensible, even as use of it by the Chantry was codified into standard Circle procedure.

That's more or less how I see it as well, but I thought it was interesting that even with that frank admission in her own mind that she wasn't able to call it blood magic directly, she was only able to say "It's like blood magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If any one can do it, then it isn't really magic, now is it? If everyone is capable of doing it, then it is simply a question of technique and/or science.

[dragonflight288]

That's true, but it still requires blood. Like Finn said when he was making that...was it a spell or potion? Well he was tracking the Lights of Arlathan in Cadash thaig and needed Dalish blood. It wasn't needed to power anything, but act as a component. It's a grey area.

That's why I simply say anything that must use the blood to get a result will qualify. If blood is not needed and will work perfectly without it, then it doesn't count.

[Lazy Jer]

Actually I think that the phylacteries require a Templar to use it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That's true, but it still requires blood. Like Finn said when he was making that...was it a spell or potion? Well he was tracking the Lights of Arlathan in Cadash thaig and needed Dalish blood. It wasn't needed to power anything, but act as a component. It's a grey area.

That's why I simply say anything that must use the blood to get a result will qualify. If blood is not needed and will work perfectly without it, then it doesn't count.

Finn was casting a spell, which would require a mage to function. I have no idea how a phylactery is actually made, I only know the components, but if a non-mage can make them, it is certainly not magic.

[TEWR]

Finn was casting a spell, which would require a mage to function. I have no idea how a phylactery is actually made, I only know the components, but if a non-mage can make them, it is certainly not magic.

My guess is it consists of obviously blood, but possibly lyrium as well and requires a mage to make it. Reason I say lyrium is due to two things: Gascard DuPuis and the glow that phylacteries give off (and lyrium also glows).

Remember Gascard took Alessa's blood and was able to track her in virtually the same way a phylactery works. Now, all he had was blood and he had to use a blood magic spell just to know where she was, so that's part of why I say that lyrium is added to Circle phylacteries. It might knock out the need for the blood magic spell to be used in conjunction with the blood.

I know that the Joining consisted of Darkspawn blood and lyrium, and the mages were the ones that were making it. Chances are that the same thing applies to the phylacteries. If so, Mages are needed to make a Phylactery, which would still make it blood magic.

Just because lyrium is added to it doesn't negate it being blood magic.

EDIT: Added some things, but I ended up forgetting some additional stuff.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2012 - 03:26 .

[dragonflight288]

Unless we know more about the phylacteries construction, it's impossible to say if a mage is required to make it or not.

But the templar ingest lyrium so they can have magical resistance and semi-magic abilities so similar to the school of spirit that it can't be a coincidence. Templars use a smaller form of magic in their own way, they just won't recognize it.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Okay, I agree, what the templars do is a form of magic. Cleanse = Dispel basically. Now is what Fenris does when he activates the Lyrium and phases also magic? I say it is. What about some of the rogue skills? They come close too.

IMO everyone can use a bit of some form of magic, just mages use a lot more of it and, are a lot better at it and, that is 90% training 10% inborn aptitude. No different than a true empath in the real world.

We can all get a good idea of what others are feeling, empaths just pick it up faster and more intensely than non empaths. Mages do the same with magic as compared to non mages in Thedas.

[TEWR]

What about some of the rogue skills? They come close too.

There aren't any Rogue talents that can be considered magic.

Over the top depending on which talents we're talking about. But magic? None of them are.

But Warriors definitely get access to specializations that are a form of magic. Spirit Warrior, Templar, and Reaver are all magic.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 février 2012 - 04:58 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Oh I disagree one even looks a lot like activating blood magic, decoy? Come on tell me it isn't magic to create what amounts to a hologram of yourself. Teleporting for backstab, shadowing even in broad daylight? I would think that takes a bit of magic.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Templar abilities aren't magic. They don't require mana or blood, and so can't be called magic. Add to that that theoretically anyone can learn the abilities, and it further subtracts from it being magic. It is rather anti-magic actually.
Spirit Warrior and Reaver are far more magical, but aren't really magic either. They are both otherwordly in nature, but the abilities are not of the warrior, but rather from a spirit/demon who grants him his abilities. So again, not really magic, but magical in nature, perhaps.

[Wulfram]

TUK: The Templar abilities, are they--despite the Chantry's protestations--a form of magic?

DG: I would say that they are magic, they derive from lyrium, which is magic. The tricky thing there is that the Chantry is awfully hypocritical when it comes to magic, in that there are sorts of magic that they will use. Actually I should take that back, it's not necessarily that they're hypocritical, they don't have anything against magic itself. Magic can be useful, they know the mages are useful. It's the elements of possession and blood magic, all the forbidden magic where things get really dicey. Even if Templar magic was recognized as spellcasting, it's not innate to the Templars, if they just stopped taking lyrium eventually they would lose the ability. Although as Alistair proves, they can use the ability for a long time afterwards. I think part of that was just the requirements of gameplay, for us to have a specialization as well, so some of that story doesn't quite match up with the gameplay, and I think eventually we'd like to work the lyrium requirement back into the gameplay as well. Regardless the magic the Templars use doesn't involve mind control, it's not forbidden magic, there's nothing about it--especially since it can only against mages--there's nothing about it that would make the Chantry step in and go "Wow, that's bad." But then we're talking about a Chantry that also has phylacteries in every Circle, which is a type of blood magic, so there's definitely an element of hypocrisy there.

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

[TEWR]

Templar abilities aren't magic. They don't require mana or blood, and so can't be called magic. Add to that that theoretically anyone can learn the abilities, and it further subtracts from it being magic. It is rather anti-magic actually.
Spirit Warrior and Reaver are far more magical, but aren't really magic either. They are both otherwordly in nature, but the abilities are not of the warrior, but rather from a spirit/demon who grants him his abilities. So again, not really magic, but magical in nature, perhaps.

As Wulfram pointed out, the Templar abilities are magic.

And Spirit Warrior abilities are magic. If you're going to say that since they derive their powers from a Spirit they aren't magic, then that means that all Spirit Healing magic isn't magic since they too derive their powers from Spirits.

And obviously, that's just not the case.

Spirit Warrior abilities are incredibly similar to Templar abilities and as a result are a form of magic. Even the Templars don't care to make a distinction between Spirit Warrior abilities and Mage abilities, as they see it as a form of magic itself.

Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction.

Just because they're not mages doesn't mean their abilities are not a form of magic, which is what's being argued here.

Reaver abilities stem from a form of blood magic -- a mage of the Circle even called the Reavers a definite form of blood magic -- and have talents that are remarkably similar to blood magic abilities.

Specifically there's one that's akin to Grave Robber.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 février 2012 - 01:59 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Wait, Silence is not mind control? Okay outwardly it simply stop a mage from casting but, a mage uses their mind to cast so, yes it is mind control IMO. But then, pounding Chantry beliefs and view into the heads of children is brain washing- mind control without magic at all. Then they go and use phylacteries on top of that, which is blood magic that they preach against.

IMO Lyrium for templars is not to enhance their abilities, it's simply addictive and thus makes defection less likely. Now I am assuming it is also addictive for mages so, on that blood might be a better option, if you are intent on not risking lyrium addiction.

[dragonflight288]

So yes, the Templars and the Chantry use magic, but deny the fact. Ser Bryant said they had holy powers gifted to combat unholy magics. Well he can stop ingesting lyrium and see how holy his powers are and how gifted he truly is unless he wishes to admit he's using magic.

If lyrium withdrawal doesn't get to him first.

[TEWR]

Wait, Silence is not mind control? Okay outwardly it simply stop a mage from casting but, a mage uses their mind to cast so, yes it is mind control IMO. But then, pounding Chantry beliefs and view into the heads of children is brain washing- mind control without magic at all. Then they go and use phylacteries on top of that, which is blood magic that they preach against.

A mage doesn't use their mind to cast. They draw their powers from their connection to the Fade and recite incantations. Wynne tells the Warden that she would often tell Aneirin to focus on his incantations and get his spells right.

Silence severs the connection temporarily. It's not mind control. Just an interruption of the process, setting up a metaphorical wall between the Mage and the Fade.

Mind control would be if the Mage was forced against his will to not want to cast magic at all. But this isn't mind control. A mage can still want to cast magic, but won't be able to because of Silence's effect.

See the Saarebas during Act II's climax for an example of what I mean.

[bazzag]

I think its the same with most potentially dangerous in the wrong hands powers/weapons. It depends how you intend to use it. For example, if the only way to save someone of extreme importance was to use blood magic then go ahead, its for a good cause. However obviously using it to raid pillage and murder is a no no.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Wait, Silence is not mind control? Okay outwardly it simply stop a mage from casting but, a mage uses their mind to cast so, yes it is mind control IMO. But then, pounding Chantry beliefs and view into the heads of children is brain washing- mind control without magic at all. Then they go and use phylacteries on top of that, which is blood magic that they preach against.

A mage doesn't use their mind to cast. They draw their powers from their connection to the Fade and recite incantations. Wynne tells the Warden that she would often tell Aneirin to focus on his incantations and get his spells right.

Silence severs the connection temporarily. It's not mind control. Just an interruption of the process, setting up a metaphorical wall between the Mage and the Fade.

Mind control would be if the Mage was forced against his will to not want to cast magic at all. But this isn't mind control. A mage can still want to cast magic, but won't be able to because of Silence's effect.

See the Saarebas during Act II's climax for an example of what I mean.

Exactly and what do you use to concentrate with? Your Mind, thank you - preventing that would be mind control.