886 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Its a tool like any other. There is NOTHING inherently evil about it as Merrill or PC bloodmage shows. The main problem is who you learn it from, and the types who learn it.

Merrill for example, only used her own blood (aside from controlling the enemies you fight) to cast her spells. Her own vitality is scarified to dazzling effect to smite her enemies.

[Sepewrath]

DPSSOC wrote...
Yes fireballs are a malevolent application of conjuring fire.  However the simple act of conjuring fire can serve a benign purpose.  I can't see how any of the things we see Blood Magic do; summoning demons, controlling minds, and messing around with blood temperature (wait, ok I got one for that) serve any benign function.

Whatever fine reason you may have for doing it you are robbing someone of their freedom, trapping them within their own mind, that is perhaps the greatest violation you can commit against another person.

Like I said you can summon a fireball using blood magic and use it for benign purposes. And those actions you mentioned are specifically malicious, the same as dropping Fire or Lightning on someone, with or without blood magic. And yeah controlling someones is a massive invasion of privacy but if say you used on Sten to stop him from killing that family or stop someone from walking into a trap or something, then it doesn't seem so bad.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Like others, I do not think all blood magic spells are inherently evil, but blood magic is extremely risky and prone to abuse.

As I look at the blood mage tree, the only spell that seems worse than a spell from any other tree is Blood Slave.  Taking away another person's intent and free will (whether in battle or in conversation, like Idunna) is evil.

[Out to Lunch]

I think bioware made a mistake by allowing players to have the blood magic skill tree because it limits the impact of the negative side of BM they seem to want to emphasize. People who don't want it to be inherently evil will point to their non-evil use of it as evidence when it's just game mechanics. We don't hear the voice of a demon trying to influence us when BM is activated. We can't summon demons or use mind control like we used persuasion in origins. It's just a spell tree like any other.

Personally, I see blood mages as the vampires of Thedas.

[DPSSOC]

Sepewrath wrote...
Like I said you can summon a fireball using blood magic and use it for benign purposes. And those actions you mentioned are specifically malicious, the same as dropping Fire or Lightning on someone, with or without blood magic.

Ok I think we've had a misunderstanding.  I'm perfectly fine with Blood Magic in terms of strictly using blood rather than mana to power spells, as long as you don't use someone elses (unless they volunteer like Isolde) it's perfectly moral to use it.  It's the spells that can only be performed with Blood Magic that bother me, because the only Blood Magic exclusive spells (from both lore and gameplay) we've witnessed are various ways of controlling, murderring, or maiming people.  So green light on blood as a power source, redlight on the spells that require blood magic.

Sepewrath wrote...
And yeah controlling someones is a massive invasion of privacy but if say you used on Sten to stop him from killing that family or stop someone from walking into a trap or something, then it doesn't seem so bad. 

No it doesn't, but like I said no matter how good your reason for doing it it's still an immoral action.  Take killing in self-defense; it's necessary and understandable but it is never a good thing.

Also it's a remarkably slippery slope.  Do you mind control addicts?  The insane?  Anyone who's just not smart enough to know what's good for them?  How many people do you rob of their free will because it's better for them or society in general?

[Jugo616]

It's lovely.

[Robhuzz]

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

2. Merrill didn't contact Audacity again for 7 years, but let's not forget her entire plan of fixing the eluvian was a ruse set up by the demon to escape from it's prison, possessing Merrill and escaping into the world. Even if Merrill had never contacted the demon again, had she been able to fix the Eluvian by herself and had Marethari not intervened, the demon would have gotten exactly what it wanted.

3. BioWare severely changed the lore on magic in DA2. I'm basing my opinion on the DAO lore now, in which only mages can be possessed by demons (though others can be influenced by them as well). While a normal person can make a deal with a demon, only mages are in real danger when dealing with one. Add to that the fact that a normal person cannot approach a demon in the fade (since they're not awake like mages are) and the chance for a normal person to even meet a demon is much, much lower than the chance for a mage to meet a demon.

[Sons of Horus]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jowan was jealous of the wardens power, its why he sort out the book of blood magic, to increase his own power, nothing noble about that. I wonder if he would have butcher Lilly for power if they had escaped as planed and templar’s were closing in.

I'm currently replaying Origins as an Amell mage. From what I gather, Jowan, and not even the real one, makes only a single implication of jealousy and that's in the temple for the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Phantom-Jowan congratulates the Warden on becoming the mage he never could.

In the tower, Jowan cries out in desperation that he started dabbling in blood magic (learned from a book, not a demon) in order to become a better mage and hopefully make a better life for him and Lily. Only Gregoire got evidence and eye-witness testimony that Jowan was practicing blood magic (Irving states this when asked about it in the Origin story).

Jowan is renowned for making monumentally bad decisions, but he has never really implied jealousy of the Warden in the flesh. Only worry about his own lack of Harrowing and apparent lack of skill. And him trying to keep his relationship with Lily a secret. And no, Jowan honestly doesn't seem the type to butcher Lily.

The evidence of his good character is when I let him out of prison, and told him to escape as this was his last chance. He stubbornly refused and stayed to help, knowing he would likely be executed when all was done. He stayed, never used any magic on anyone except in the blood ritual, which Isolde volunteered for.

When a person stays to fight when all that awaits them is death in an unmarked grave or tranquility, that takes remarkable courage and is not the characteristics of a man consumed with power and thoughts of escape.

But that was only after he had been living as a apostate for a wile, teaching Connor, getting tortured by Isolde, getting lily sent to that prison and other issues.

If you choose the option to execute him, you can be his executioner and can engage in an emotional conversation with him. He'll reveal that he started to practice blood magic in order to become more powerful, because he always felt minor compared to the Warden.

It’s a shame they took him out as a companion, I rather liked him. Played a mage as my main and set him free, but he’s still a dabbler in the Tervinter/bloodmage arts in the origin. I think had he escaped as he wanted, he may have turned out differently.

[Sons of Horus]

Out to Lunch wrote...

I think bioware made a mistake by allowing players to have the blood magic skill tree because it limits the impact of the negative side of BM they seem to want to emphasize. People who don't want it to be inherently evil will point to their non-evil use of it as evidence when it's just game mechanics. We don't hear the voice of a demon trying to influence us when BM is activated. We can't summon demons or use mind control like we used persuasion in origins. It's just a spell tree like any other.

Personally, I see blood mages as the vampires of Thedas.

Your right there Out to Lunch. Bad design on bioware's account.

[TEWR]

Merrill didn't contact Audacity again for 7 years, but let's not forget her entire plan of fixing the eluvian was a ruse set up by the demon to escape from it's prison, possessing Merrill and escaping into the world. Even if Merrill had never contacted the demon again, had she been able to fix the Eluvian by herself and had Marethari not intervened, the demon would have gotten exactly what it wanted.

And we're taking the word of Marethari the Abomination at face value now? She didn't want to study the Eluvians at all, thinking they should be left to the past, and somehow she just knows what would've actually happened when an Eluvian links to a place "beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade", as Morrigan put it? Demons lie all the time. Audacity probably said, while he was trapped (which Marethari admitted that he was trapped and couldn't harm anyone, as he was sundered from the Veil entirely like Justice was) that he would use the Eluvian to escape so Marethari would free him.

Using blood magic on the Eluvian doesn't make it a portal for demons. We know that it can be made into a portal leading beyond the domain of demons, but we don't know what that actually entails. The Tevinters used blood magic on the Eluvians and all they managed to do was make a fancy telephone.

Merrill went to see the demon 3 times:

1) With Marethari in the short story, where the Keeper says that the demon is trapped and can't harm anyone
2) to learn blood magic to cleanse the shard of the taint, which worked because neither Merrill nor anyone else has been infected by the taint
3) In Act 3, where Marethari acted like an idiot by freeing a trapped demon.

There was no danger in what Merrill was doing. The only danger was the clan's unwarranted fear of Merrill because the Keeper poisoned her standing with the clan, and then had the audacity to say she should come back as if everything would be okay. As if the clan wouldn't hate her anymore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 03:13 .

[TEWR]

It’s a shame they took him out as a companion, I rather liked him. Played a mage as my main and set him free, but he’s still a dabbler in the Tervinter/bloodmage arts in the origin. I think had he escaped as he wanted, he may have turned out differently.

If you set him free at Redcliffe he uses his blood magic to defend refugees fleeing from the Blight under the alias of "Master Levyn".

And I actually want to see more of Jowan. I wish Bioware would make him a companion, but since people may have killed him, I don't see it happening sadly. It's a shame they cut the "Warden conscripting him" thing.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 03:09 .

[Aradace]

Not only do I condone Blood Magic and support it, but Legacy itself has made me rethink the Chantry's "policy" on magic. Supposedly how Andraste herself said "Magic is to serve man, not rule him." To which, after playing the DLC, I think that the chantry is WAY off base on their assessment of magic as a whole due to their literal translation of the phrase.

*spoiler alert for those who havent played Legacy yet, skip the following*



It was the quest "Malcolm's Will" that made me think on it when he said "My magic will serve what is best in me, not which is most base." Which got me thinking; What if it's not meant literally? What if, in fact, "Magic is to serve man not rule him..." was meant to be viewed more along the lines of "Magic is to serve the one using it.....But to be careful to not let it "rule" him in the process." Basically meaning, "Be the 'master' of your magic, and not the servant. Let it serve 'you', not you serve 'it'.

It makes sense when you stop and think about it lol....Sorry about that a bit OT. Didnt mean to derail there

[DPSSOC]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It’s a shame they took him out as a companion, I rather liked him. Played a mage as my main and set him free, but he’s still a dabbler in the Tervinter/bloodmage arts in the origin. I think had he escaped as he wanted, he may have turned out differently.

If you set him free at Redcliffe he uses his blood magic to defend refugees fleeing from the Blight under the alias of "Master Levyn".

And I actually want to see more of Jowan. I wish Bioware would make him a companion, but since people may have killed him, I don't see it happening sadly. It's a shame they cut the "Warden conscripting him" thing.

People may have killed Leliana too remember.  No reason Bioware couldn't say Jowan survived being killed by the Warden somehow.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It’s a shame they took him out as a companion, I rather liked him. Played a mage as my main and set him free, but he’s still a dabbler in the Tervinter/bloodmage arts in the origin. I think had he escaped as he wanted, he may have turned out differently.

If you set him free at Redcliffe he uses his blood magic to defend refugees fleeing from the Blight under the alias of "Master Levyn".

And I actually want to see more of Jowan. I wish Bioware would make him a companion, but since people may have killed him, I don't see it happening sadly. It's a shame they cut the "Warden conscripting him" thing.

I'm still waiting for the DLC where Jowan assembles a badass crew to break Lily out of Aeonar. That would be so awesome.

[TEWR]

@Aradace: I've thought a similar thing since DAO.


Magic is meant to serve man, never rule over him.


I took that to mean that Magic should be used to better society in many ways, but the mage should not let his power rule over his mind. He should not let his magic determine his actions. He should not think that he should rule the world because he is more powerful.

Stuff like that. If you combined the effects of a Spirit Healer who can mend wounds with the manipulation of blood magic, you have a very advanced medical field. If a man came in with a severed artery and a blood mage like Malcolm was nearby, he could use his blood magic to manipulate the man's flow of blood to keep him from bleeding to death until a Spirit Healer came by.

Of course, you're always going to have the bad apples. And there is always the risk of Abomination meatball flesh suit wearing people running amok, so you do need Templars.

But the Chantry is way off.

[Aradace]

DPSSOC wrote...


People may have killed Leliana too remember.  No reason Bioware couldn't say Jowan survived being killed by the Warden somehow.

Which would ****** me off to no end....Yet ANOTHER decision I made thrown to the wayside.  Given, most of the times I played through Jowan lived.  But again, I always have that one or two data files set aside just for these cases.  I swear, any more retcons in the DA series and Im just going to give up even choosing dialog in my conversations and just always go with the most base/default answer I can.  Retcon = Lazy writing.  So lets NOT go there please?  I'd like to keep what little sanity I have intact. 

[TEWR]

DPSSOC wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It’s a shame they took him out as a companion, I rather liked him. Played a mage as my main and set him free, but he’s still a dabbler in the Tervinter/bloodmage arts in the origin. I think had he escaped as he wanted, he may have turned out differently.

If you set him free at Redcliffe he uses his blood magic to defend refugees fleeing from the Blight under the alias of "Master Levyn".

And I actually want to see more of Jowan. I wish Bioware would make him a companion, but since people may have killed him, I don't see it happening sadly. It's a shame they cut the "Warden conscripting him" thing.

People may have killed Leliana too remember.  No reason Bioware couldn't say Jowan survived being killed by the Warden somehow.

True. He is a blood mage, and I have said many times that blood magic can manipulate the flow of blood.


Bring back Jowan Bioware!

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do you think blood magic can be used to manipulate blood flow?

Let Jowan stay dead like the mewling idiot he is.

[dragonflight288]

Whenever anyone quotes the Chant of Light about magic serving man and never ruling over him, I honestly think people forget what comes after that line, or overlook it.

"Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken his gift
and turned it against His children
The shall be named Maleficar
etc..."

It's stated right there in the Chant of Light so often propagated by the Chantry that magic is a gift. It speaks of unholy practices of using magic against the children of the Maker, then goes on about Maleficar.

And the definition of a Maleficar is

A maleficar is a mage who uses the forbidden arts including, but not solely restricted to, blood magic. Known maleficars are slain on sight by templars.

Apostates are not by definition maleficars, but many are. Bucking the authority of the Circle of Magi usually leads a mage into exploring the forbidden, especially if they feel they need such power to stay alive. This is common enough that many templars will simply assume that any apostate is also a maleficar, or close enough to becoming one that it makes no difference.

Apostates who practice magical arts not well known among Circles, such as Morrigan's shapeshifting, are sometimes referred to as maleficar. This distinction is not exact and is usually born from the common ignorance and prejudice to associate all unique forms of magic with blood magic.

--dragon age wikia

To be hunted by the Templars and the Chantry is not restricted to blood mages (which is indeed a very valuable tool, and they are considered maleficar by the Chant of Light simply because of the power to control the minds of others), but also Shape Shifters, heck even the Arcane Warrior would be a maleficar because it is a form of magic not controlled by the chantry.

The problems with blood magic is that it's so open to abuse. The problem with the Chant of Light is that so many use it to open up abuse against those they are prejudiced against.

[Robhuzz]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...


1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

I thought the same for quite some time, but now I don't think this is true. First and foremost because blood magic is a kind of magic entirely dependent on the flesh, which the beings of the Fade don't have. I think that blood magic came from mortals first, then the demons acquired this knowledge for themselves to use its power as a bargaining chip, and now that blood magic has been all but wiped out from the Andrastian lands, they serve as a black market for it. So, I don't think blood mages have to come in contact with a demon, but they'd be hard pressed to find other ways of learning how to properly use blood magic.

That is an interesting theory and, given the nature of the chantry, quite plausible. The chantry by now is known to conjure up pretty much anything to justify their means. It is possible blood magic was originally thought up by humans, with the chantry claiming it's taught by demons to justify their treatment of mages. Though I still think it came from demons at first. The reason for this is that some of the demons you see in DA2 (Allure for example) seems to have taught blood magic to Lady hairimann, and she asks the demon for more power several times.

This theory does have one strange quirk. First Enchanter Irving says, upon sending Jowan into the fade at Redcliffe, a blood mage could take control of a demon. This is most likely just primitive fear of blood mages as no blood mage I've seen has ever managed to control a demon (quite the opposite). Though if it's true then I wonder how a blood mage could do it. Supposedly the demons taught blood magic to mortals, would demons really be stupid enough to teach mortals a kind of magic that could control their own kind? I'd have to give demons more credit than that.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 07 août 2011 - 04:42 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

We can't safely say that an Arcane Warrior would be considered a maleficar. The arts had been lost for centuries, and it is doubtful that the Circles even had knowledge of them. Once the art is properly studied and catalogued it can be decided wether it should be declared illegal or not. Though I can't see why the Circles would brand it as a maleficarum art.

There are good reasons for shapeshifters and blood mages to be branded as maleficars though.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do you think blood magic can be used to manipulate blood flow?

Let Jowan stay dead like the mewling idiot he is.

because that's a very big part of blood magic. It's in various descriptions of blood mage abilities how blood magic is used to control blood.

http://dragonage.wik..._(Dragon_Age_II)

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_magic


then there's the description of blood wound:

The blood of all hostile targets in the area boils within their veins, inflicting severe damage

That is very much a manipulation of blood, albeit for more sinister purposes. But nevertheless, there can be benign purposes for it as well. It's also something that makes sense for blood mages to do.

as well as this from blood control:

The blood mage forcibly controls the target’s blood, making the target an ally of the caster unless it passes a mental resistance check. If the target resists, it still takes great damage from the manipulation of its blood. Creatures without blood are immune.

Again, while this particular instance is sinister in nature, it doesn't exclude that blood mages can manipulate blood in good ways. Rather, it confirms that it can be done.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 août 2011 - 04:53 .

[dragonflight288]

Oh? An Arcane Warrior would allow mages to wear armor and wield weapons that the most seasoned warriors can wear. It would allow them to fight not only as equals in combat in close quarters, but also add in the mages spells and they are lethal at every range. The Rights of Annulment would be considerably more difficult to enact when the templars are trying to run swords through plate mail wearing mages.

I honestly don't see the Chantry accepting the Arcane Warrior as a legitimate school of magic worth studying because it gives mages more of an equal footing with the templars.

That is all merely conjecture on my part. And as the chantry often brands any type of magic not practiced in the circle as blood magic, (which they might with the arcane warrior. How else would a mage with little physical endurance training wear heavy armor, in their eyes?), I honestly don't see the Arcane Warrior spec lasting long unless the Warden takes on apprentices.

[Jamie9]

Blood magic, it is EVIL. Why? My personal opinion is that it should be avoided because it thins the Veil. Demons are much more evil, dangerous and scheming than any Blood Mage. The Veil should not be thinned.