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[Xilizhra]

As a sidenote, I don't really believe EWR's theory about Flemeth, but that's mostly because I think Flemeth is Fen'Harel and was directly involved in the creation of Andraste, whom I do suspect is the Dumat OGB.

[ObserverStatus]

The Maker hates you all.

[TEWR]

As a sidenote, I don't really believe EWR's theory about Flemeth, but that's mostly because I think Flemeth is Fen'Harel and was directly involved in the creation of Andraste, whom I do suspect is the Dumat OGB.

That seems likely, though that would bring to mind one question: What is it that the world did to Flemeth if she truly is Fen'Harel?

[Xilizhra]

Well, we never figured out why exactly Fen'Harel sealed the other gods in their realms other than for the lulz; maybe it had something to do with that. Though I got a lot more vibes of this from her "Regret is something I know well" bit.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I gotta say, TEWR, I've heard your OGB Andraste-Flemeth theory before, and while it's creative, it's a little too contrived, to me. Sounds more like the kind of deliberately cheesy plot one would find on a daytime soap opera. Sorry.

Nah it's fine. With such scant information to really go on regarding Flemeth, all I can really do is create some sort of theory like this.

I'm not a Flemeth expert -- and really, who is? =P -- so my two main theories on her are that she's the Andraste OGB, or that she's a Dalish God. All we really know about her is that she's connected to the Elves in some way and that she's not mortal.

Well, we know a few other things, but in terms of stuff that backs up my two theories I think that's about it.

Both have very little to back them up I will admit, but it's all I have to go on at the moment.

The thing about mages and lyrium, though, is that we do know that lyrium is kept at the Circles for mages to use, and we know that they DO drink it, though it really isn't ever said how much or how often. I would imagine, yes, based on one of the codices that I unfortunately can't recall, that it's intended only for use when a mage's native supply of mana isn't sufficient to a given task. So its true that a Warden roaming the countryside and anticipating many long, protracted battles with darkspawn would feel the need to guzzle lyrium the way--well, the way I drink coffee, and that this is an unusual situation most mages don't find themselves needing that much lyrium for everyday spellcasting.

I find that it's an issue of how poorly the Circles are visualized. In both games we have very limited exposure to the Mages of the Circle. In both games we only see... what.... a dozen or so mages maximum?

That's definitely a factor in why we don't see lyrium-addicted mages.

But the game--and the books, for that matter--go well out of their way to drive home how insidiously addictive lyrium is. That's why people see it as bizarre that there's so much focus on the templars being addicted, but little to no mention of mages facing similar problems. I know I've always been under the impression that one of the reasons it is so dangerous is because it simply doesn't take that much exposure to create a permanent addiction to it, and I'm under this impression because again and again and again and again I hear about how addictive lyrium is and how it will inevitably drive its addicts insane.

As I said, the codex on lyrium says that prolonged use makes one addicted to it.

So while it's dangerous to touch certainly, it seems it isn't immediately addictive when imbibed.

I seem to recall that its considered so dangerous that non-dwarves are strongly advised not to let lyrium come in contact with their bare skin. That lyrium-addled Dwarf merchant, in addressing the Wardens question about dwarven immunity, says, "Yes. Only not too much and not every day and not breathing the dust and not direct in the blood." That sounds like a very dangerous substance that even mages would want to be wary of, unless something about being a mage protects them. But the Mage Warden just puts her hand right in the stuff without even blinking. Yes, gameplay/story segregation or no, I find that weird.

I think there are two reasons for this:

1) Raw lyrium is what's immediately dangerous to touch.
2) Lyrium potions are diluted and as a result aren't as potent as raw lyrium is. I think that was said somewhere in the games.

I wonder what the odds are of the lyrium that gets passed to the mages being more diluted substance than what templars use.  Its one of my various reasons for loathing the Chantry--I'm convinced that it deliberately gets its templars hooked on lyrium purely as a control mechanism, not because of any benefit that lyrium provides in hunting down rogue mages.  I mean, it stands to reason that the majority of templars don't have to consume lyrium that often.  If they kept it on their person for emergencies, and of course when running across Thedas after an escaped apostate, sure.  But it seems that the Chantry arranges to get templars started on lyrium as soon as they finalized their training, and get them needing to drink it regularly right off the bat?  

Re: Flemeth.  I'm of the mind that she started out exactly as the legends claim.  That she was never anything more than a regular woman, who found herself caught up in the whims of fate and ended up becoming the unique abomination...thing? she is today.  Although I do note that there is lore about Urthemiel, the archdemon for the Fifth Blight, possibly having a daughter...

Now, the idea of Andraste being an OGB, that I would really appreciate.  That would be fun!  I just...don't want Flemeth to be her reincarnation...or just the guise she's been going by for the past 900 some odd years.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

I wonder what the odds are of the lyrium that gets passed to the mages being more diluted substance than what templars use. Its one of my various reasons for loathing the Chantry--I'm convinced that it deliberately gets its templars hooked on lyrium purely as a control mechanism, not because of any benefit that lyrium provides in hunting down rogue mages. I mean, it stands to reason that the majority of templars don't have to consume lyrium that often. If they kept it on their person for emergencies, and of course when running across Thedas after an escaped apostate, sure. But it seems that the Chantry arranges to get templars started on lyrium as soon as they finalized their training, and get them needing to drink it regularly right off the bat?

I imagine that the mages do get handed more diluted lyrium potions then the Templars, if only for two reasons:

1) As you said -- and I concur, because it's a belief I've echoed a few times before -- the Chantry wants to control the Templars, so it gives them more potent lyrium potions and whatnot

2) The Chantry doesn't want to give the mages potent lyrium potions and whatnot, because that might lead them to becoming powerful enough to escape the Circles and overpower the Templars.

Re: Flemeth. I'm of the mind that she started out exactly as the legends claim. That she was never anything more than a regular woman, who found herself caught up in the whims of fate and ended up becoming the unique abomination...thing? she is today. Although I do note that there is lore about Urthemiel, the archdemon for the Fifth Blight, possibly having a daughter...

Morrigan says in Witch Hunt that Flemeth isn't an Abomination, so I think the legend is just a fanciful story that shouldn't be taken seriously.

I also think Fenris and Anders call her out on not being an Abomination either.

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we never figured out why exactly Fen'Harel sealed the other gods in their realms other than for the lulz; maybe it had something to do with that. Though I got a lot more vibes of this from her "Regret is something I know well" bit.

One thing's for certain.

She loves playing chess by using the people of Thedas as her pawns.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I wonder what the odds are of the lyrium that gets passed to the mages being more diluted substance than what templars use. Its one of my various reasons for loathing the Chantry--I'm convinced that it deliberately gets its templars hooked on lyrium purely as a control mechanism, not because of any benefit that lyrium provides in hunting down rogue mages. I mean, it stands to reason that the majority of templars don't have to consume lyrium that often. If they kept it on their person for emergencies, and of course when running across Thedas after an escaped apostate, sure. But it seems that the Chantry arranges to get templars started on lyrium as soon as they finalized their training, and get them needing to drink it regularly right off the bat?

I imagine that the mages do get handed more diluted lyrium potions then the Templars, if only for two reasons:

1) As you said -- and I concur, because it's a belief I've echoed a few times before -- the Chantry wants to control the Templars, so it gives them more potent lyrium potions and whatnot

2) The Chantry doesn't want to give the mages potent lyrium potions and whatnot, because that might lead them to becoming powerful enough to escape the Circles and overpower the Templars.

Re: Flemeth. I'm of the mind that she started out exactly as the legends claim. That she was never anything more than a regular woman, who found herself caught up in the whims of fate and ended up becoming the unique abomination...thing? she is today. Although I do note that there is lore about Urthemiel, the archdemon for the Fifth Blight, possibly having a daughter...

Morrigan says in Witch Hunt that Flemeth isn't an Abomination, so I think the legend is just a fanciful story that shouldn't be taken seriously.

I also think Fenris and Anders call her out on not being an Abomination either.

Yeah, that's why I wrote unique abomination...thing?  Morrigan does acknowledge--or claims, she isn't necessarily a reliable source--that Flemeth is possessed.  I think what we're seeing unfold, between Flemeth, and Anders, and Wynne, is that the mindless abomination meatblobs we see, that templars would have us believe is what happens to any and all possessed mages, is not the full story.  And of course there are those possessed Rivaini seers.  Somehow I don't think the Rivaini people would be as enamored of their wise folk if they were giant grey/brown meat sacks.  So I definitely think the possession thing is...interesting.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There seems to be one major difference between mages and nonmages when using lyrium: mages directly expend the power very quickly, in general, and it doesn't have time to build up into a truly addictive substance. A mage with a powerful dose of lyrium in them could fling a few powerful spells and bleed off the effect quickly enough to avoid ill effects, something that templars and dwarves can't do.

See, I've always headcanoned something like this.  Never considered the idea of ingested lyrium being burned away before it could lead to deleterious effects, but that's got possibilities.

I've always figured there was something about mages having a direct connection to the Fade, since lyrium also has some kind of direct connection.  I've a feeling we might be learning more about this if DA3 goes into more depth about this new kind of red lyrium DA2 introduced.  Along with other tidbits, such as the birthrate of mages being on the rise, and Sandal's mysterious prophecy.

Prolonged use of lyrium by mages causes severe mutations according to the codex.

[Sajuro]

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

I just think that cute naive and dumb girls like Merrill shouldn't ever dabble in blood magic. Who knows what kinds of idiotic things they might do with it without even fully realizing the consequences. Like summoning a fierce demon using blood magic and asking him to be 'friends'. *rolls eyes*

I think Merrill just wondered what friendship could be.

friendship is blood magic!
On a completely serious note, I never used Blood magic in game, but from a lore perspective
sounds like a fun thing to do.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There seems to be one major difference between mages and nonmages when using lyrium: mages directly expend the power very quickly, in general, and it doesn't have time to build up into a truly addictive substance. A mage with a powerful dose of lyrium in them could fling a few powerful spells and bleed off the effect quickly enough to avoid ill effects, something that templars and dwarves can't do.

See, I've always headcanoned something like this.  Never considered the idea of ingested lyrium being burned away before it could lead to deleterious effects, but that's got possibilities.

I've always figured there was something about mages having a direct connection to the Fade, since lyrium also has some kind of direct connection.  I've a feeling we might be learning more about this if DA3 goes into more depth about this new kind of red lyrium DA2 introduced.  Along with other tidbits, such as the birthrate of mages being on the rise, and Sandal's mysterious prophecy.

Prolonged use of lyrium by mages causes severe mutations according to the codex.

But not in templars?  All other things being equal, the only thing that (supposedly) differentiates the two is that one group has a natural link to the Fade.  Why would lyrium affect one group one way and another group differently?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There seems to be one major difference between mages and nonmages when using lyrium: mages directly expend the power very quickly, in general, and it doesn't have time to build up into a truly addictive substance. A mage with a powerful dose of lyrium in them could fling a few powerful spells and bleed off the effect quickly enough to avoid ill effects, something that templars and dwarves can't do.

See, I've always headcanoned something like this.  Never considered the idea of ingested lyrium being burned away before it could lead to deleterious effects, but that's got possibilities.

I've always figured there was something about mages having a direct connection to the Fade, since lyrium also has some kind of direct connection.  I've a feeling we might be learning more about this if DA3 goes into more depth about this new kind of red lyrium DA2 introduced.  Along with other tidbits, such as the birthrate of mages being on the rise, and Sandal's mysterious prophecy.

Prolonged use of lyrium by mages causes severe mutations according to the codex.

But not in templars?  All other things being equal, the only thing that (supposedly) differentiates the two is that one group has a natural link to the Fade.  Why would lyrium affect one group one way and another group differently?

Yeah, but that effect was only seen in the magisters of old, the guys who snorted mountains of the stuff. t's likely no individual mage or templar has access to enough lyrium to cause that kind of mutation.

[TEWR]

We don't even know how valid that claim is. It's simply a story of what happened, but there's no real proof to back up the claim of "Use enough lyrium, you turn into a monster".

And considering the Magisters did attempt to invade the "Golden City" -- of which I'm having a theory currently that deals with the City and the Primeval Thaig Dwarves -- I don't know how much of the "monstrous" look is really due to the lyrium and not just the Taint itself.

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

I just think that cute naive and dumb girls like Merrill shouldn't ever dabble in blood magic. Who knows what kinds of idiotic things they might do with it without even fully realizing the consequences. Like summoning a fierce demon using blood magic and asking him to be 'friends'. *rolls eyes*

Considering she never did that, attempted to do that, or said she was planning on doing that I'm not sure why you're claiming she did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 mars 2012 - 03:34 .

[Silfren]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There seems to be one major difference between mages and nonmages when using lyrium: mages directly expend the power very quickly, in general, and it doesn't have time to build up into a truly addictive substance. A mage with a powerful dose of lyrium in them could fling a few powerful spells and bleed off the effect quickly enough to avoid ill effects, something that templars and dwarves can't do.

See, I've always headcanoned something like this.  Never considered the idea of ingested lyrium being burned away before it could lead to deleterious effects, but that's got possibilities.

I've always figured there was something about mages having a direct connection to the Fade, since lyrium also has some kind of direct connection.  I've a feeling we might be learning more about this if DA3 goes into more depth about this new kind of red lyrium DA2 introduced.  Along with other tidbits, such as the birthrate of mages being on the rise, and Sandal's mysterious prophecy.

Prolonged use of lyrium by mages causes severe mutations according to the codex.

But not in templars?  All other things being equal, the only thing that (supposedly) differentiates the two is that one group has a natural link to the Fade.  Why would lyrium affect one group one way and another group differently?

Yeah, but that effect was only seen in the magisters of old, the guys who snorted mountains of the stuff. t's likely no individual mage or templar has access to enough lyrium to cause that kind of mutation.

As EWR already pointed out, that story has not been confirmed.  Also, the lore as we have it says that lyrium was used, not that it was consumed.  I think the use of lyrium in that ritual was similar to its use by the Circle in freeing Connor.  Anyway, it has nothing to do with my question, which is why lyrium would affect one group in one manner and another group differently.

[Sajuro]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We don't even know how valid that claim is. It's simply a story of what happened, but there's no real proof to back up the claim of "Use enough lyrium, you turn into a monster".

And considering the Magisters did attempt to invade the "Golden City" -- of which I'm having a theory currently that deals with the City and the Primeval Thaig Dwarves -- I don't know how much of the "monstrous" look is really due to the lyrium and not just the Taint itself.

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

I just think that cute naive and dumb girls like Merrill shouldn't ever dabble in blood magic. Who knows what kinds of idiotic things they might do with it without even fully realizing the consequences. Like summoning a fierce demon using blood magic and asking him to be 'friends'. *rolls eyes*

Considering she never did that, attempted to do that, or said she was planning on doing that I'm not sure why you're claiming she did.

It is a narrative people have about a person, a meme growing out of something that person never said or did.
Like how everyone thought Palin said that she could see Russia from her house when she never did.
I'm sure one person first posted that she wanted to be friends with demons and it went from there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

As EWR already pointed out, that story has not been confirmed.  Also, the lore as we have it says that lyrium was used, not that it was consumed.  I think the use of lyrium in that ritual was similar to its use by the Circle in freeing Connor.  Anyway, it has nothing to do with my question, which is why lyrium would affect one group in one manner and another group differently.

Since lyrium is magic in its solid form, it stands to reason that it would affect the people more sensitive to the stuff (mages), differently than the ones with no natural connection.

[Urzon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, we never figured out why exactly Fen'Harel sealed the other gods in their realms other than for the lulz; maybe it had something to do with that. Though I got a lot more vibes of this from her "Regret is something I know well" bit.

We don't even know how much of the elvaan legends are true, since they are just myths and stories after all. For all we know, the war between the elvaan god was going to be destructive, and Fen'Harel, seeing that it would destory Thedas/the world, tricked the gods (his/her/its family) and sealed them all away to protect everyone.

The elves obviously saw this as an act of evil, so they painted Fen'Harel as the bad guy for all their story thereafter.

[dragonflight288]

I just think that cute naive and dumb girls like Merrill shouldn't ever dabble in blood magic. Who knows what kinds of idiotic things they might do with it without even fully realizing the consequences. Like summoning a fierce demon using blood magic and asking him to be 'friends'. *rolls eyes*

Right...any in-game examples of her wanting to summon demons in the alienage with blood magic and wanting to be friends? Or even any examples of her treating any spirit or demon with anything beyond suspicion (going to deal with Fenriel doesn't count because EVERY party member gets affected. Only Justice doesn't because...he's a fade spirit already.)

She recognizes the type of demons, and how to fight them. And can tell if a templar is possessed.

Merrill: It's a sloth demon! Think active thoughts! Running, jumping, and other things.

Merrill: He's clean! There's no demons in his blood.

She is far more intelligent than her haters give her credit for.

[Wulfram]

Sajuro wrote...

Obi-Wan Old Ben Kenobi wrote...

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

I just think that cute naive and dumb girls like Merrill shouldn't ever dabble in blood magic. Who knows what kinds of idiotic things they might do with it without even fully realizing the consequences. Like summoning a fierce demon using blood magic and asking him to be 'friends'. *rolls eyes*

I think Merrill just wondered what friendship could be.

friendship is blood magic!

Blood rainbows!



By YamiSnuffles

[Chiramu]

With blood magic the only way to attain it is to make a pact with a demon, and that's like selling your eternal soul to the devil imo. Because a demon will make a deal with you, but the demon will always make sure that they will ALWAYS get the better end of the bargain. Just like the devil.

So, why do so many people become blood mages when they KNOW they are being ripped off? I'd rather live and fight as myself than let some demon take over my body in a few years >.>. But I personally like doing things by myself.
I think it has a lot to do with how you are personally; like if you like people helping you out then you might make the outrageous deal with the demon with you getting the short end of the stick, or you could go "f*** you" to the demon and fight by your our powers.

Personally, I think there's more heroics in fighting and winning and dying with your own strength than borrowing someone else's especially if you won't even live to see that many more days because of that additional strength :<.

[Silfren]

Chiramu wrote...

With blood magic the only way to attain it is to make a pact with a demon, and that's like selling your eternal soul to the devil imo. Because a demon will make a deal with you, but the demon will always make sure that they will ALWAYS get the better end of the bargain. Just like the devil.

So, why do so many people become blood mages when they KNOW they are being ripped off? I'd rather live and fight as myself than let some demon take over my body in a few years >.>. But I personally like doing things by myself.
I think it has a lot to do with how you are personally; like if you like people helping you out then you might make the outrageous deal with the demon with you getting the short end of the stick, or you could go "f*** you" to the demon and fight by your our powers.

Personally, I think there's more heroics in fighting and winning and dying with your own strength than borrowing someone else's especially if you won't even live to see that many more days because of that additional strength :<.

No, making a pact with a demon is NOT the only way to "attain" blood magic.  There is some debate on how blood magic first came into the world, but there is sufficient evidence that demons are not required to learn it now.  This would be the answer to your question, why do people become blood mages when they "KNOW" they are being ripped off?"  They DON'T know that, because it isn't necessarily true.  The question presumes a premise that is not known to be a concrete fact.

There's a simple enough argument for using blood magic:  sometimes it may be the only option available to you.  Sometimes a mage may simply need more power for a given task than is available to them through other means.  Sometimes doing the heroic thing just means making sacrifices so that others don't have to.  Blood magic falls under that category neatly enough.

[EmperorSahlertz]

"Heroic sacrifice" is not heroic anymore, when it is anyone else than yourself that you sacrifice....

[dragonflight288]

Chiramu wrote...

With blood magic the only way to attain it is to make a pact with a demon, and that's like selling your eternal soul to the devil imo. Because a demon will make a deal with you, but the demon will always make sure that they will ALWAYS get the better end of the bargain. Just like the devil.

So, why do so many people become blood mages when they KNOW they are being ripped off? I'd rather live and fight as myself than let some demon take over my body in a few years >.>. But I personally like doing things by myself.
I think it has a lot to do with how you are personally; like if you like people helping you out then you might make the outrageous deal with the demon with you getting the short end of the stick, or you could go "f*** you" to the demon and fight by your our powers.

Personally, I think there's more heroics in fighting and winning and dying with your own strength than borrowing someone else's especially if you won't even live to see that many more days because of that additional strength :<

Right...so Irving needed to take the tomes of blood magic out of the Circle library around the same time Jowan is being suspected of blood magic is strictly a coincidence right? :innocent:

Or in Awakening how the Warden can learn blood magic from a book.

Or the debate that blood magic came from the Old Gods or from Arlathan and the elves?

There is not enough evidence to suggest that demons are the only source to learn blood magic. Just the most frequent one. And most accessible to mages given the prejudice against it.

Emperor

"Heroic sacrifice" is not heroic anymore, when it is anyone else than yourself that you sacrifice....

Right. So the story of Odysseus outright choosing to take the path to lose half his crew to monsters rather than lose his ships wasn't heroic in the Odyssey? Or Achilles in the Iliad decided not to fight even when the other greeks were begging him because he was their greatest warrior? He only started fighting AFTER his friend Patroclus died. He refused up until that point.

Yet he is considered the greatest hero of the greeks. He was letting hundreds of his fellow countrymen die because he threw a hissy fit over Agamemnon's decisions at the beginning....granted Agamemnon was being a ****** at the time as well.

It all depends on the culture you're from and the specific circumstances. Sometimes leaders must make very difficult decisions knowing it will lead to the deaths of many people. Kind of like a chess master. Sacrifice pawns in the game to advance the goals towards victory, but in other cases helping the pawns become queens.