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[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Heroic sacrifice" is not heroic anymore, when it is anyone else than yourself that you sacrifice....

I didn't say anything about sacrificing others, for the first point.  A blood mage could as easily use their own blood as someone else's. 

Secondly, if other people willingly offer up their blood in order to achieve a goal, well.  That is heroic, too.

[Lazy Jer]

Silfren wrote...

I didn't say anything about sacrificing others, for the first point.  A blood mage could as easily use their own blood as someone else's. 

Secondly, if other people willingly offer up their blood in order to achieve a goal, well.  That is heroic, too.

Depends on the goal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

"Heroic sacrifice" is not heroic anymore, when it is anyone else than yourself that you sacrifice....

I didn't say anything about sacrificing others, for the first point.  A blood mage could as easily use their own blood as someone else's. 

Secondly, if other people willingly offer up their blood in order to achieve a goal, well.  That is heroic, too.

1: That isn't heroic, and it certainly isn't a sacrifice.

2: That isn't a sacrifice, at least not from the Blood Mage.

[TEWR]

1: That isn't heroic, and it certainly isn't a sacrifice.

Depends on how much blood is used. If you could only save a village by casting a spell that required much of your blood that would result in death soon after and you did so -- not afraid of the prospect of death as a result -- then it is a heroic sacrifice.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

And it would be a sacrifice if it were your loved one that gave themselves to both save you and power the spell to save the village as well, and, that is also heroic on the part of the one giving the blood.

Now used to control people or to house demons in unwilling hosts, there it is a problem but then lots of things people do are a problem. The fact that it was blood magic does not make it any worse than any other vice except that the chantry teaches such is worse.

Okay they call them demons but that is because they think of the things the "demons" represent as sins in the eyes of the Maker - who by the way is gone from Thedas. Wait just how would he know if you sinned or not any way since he abandoned Thedas? Last I knew being proud of accomplishments was no more a sin that being hungry and yet both are considered demons? Well in excess they might be but then so would an excess of ANYTHING Would not humility to the point of self loathing also be a sin and thus the product of a hate demon (assuming they also exist)?

my point is, you can twist anything into good or evil, if you really want to and, that is just what the chantry has done to blood magic, and in fact all magic.

[dragonflight288]

And any religion not theirs.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Oh definitely, I can twist my own spirituality into evil, vile, etc... just as quick as I can your, blood magic, the Andrastian faith, even an entire lack of faith. And just a quickly make the very same things sound right and good.

This won't be solved here, because I am not the only one that can do that. Personally I think the chantry is wrong and that blood magic is a tool which does carry a slightly greater risk of possession or other ill effects for the caster, but is no more evil that telling kids to believe in a god that can't do a darned thing for them, no matter how much they pray.

And that is where my opinion will stay, an opinion because there is no right or wrong, good or bad answer and, what i think will not change what you think.

[dragonflight288]

I happen to mostly agree with you. I don't care for the Chantry. But I am open to the fact that their most bare-bone essential beliefs in the Maker may be correct, even if their entire doctrine is wrong. They were only one of several Andrastian cults after all, over a century after her death.

But I believe there is right and wrong, good and evil, but that doesn't mean I have to believe the Chantry's version of that concept.

What I believe and my canon Warden Thorin Aeducan believes is different however. He believes in necessity and getting the job done.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Same with my cannon Kadeth Amell and, later Kadeth Hawke (interesting head cannon as to why bothe Revka and Leandra named their first born the same btw). What they believe and what I believe are not the same.

[hitenchi]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That's true, but it still requires blood. Like Finn said when he was making that...was it a spell or potion? Well he was tracking the Lights of Arlathan in Cadash thaig and needed Dalish blood. It wasn't needed to power anything, but act as a component. It's a grey area.

That's why I simply say anything that must use the blood to get a result will qualify. If blood is not needed and will work perfectly without it, then it doesn't count.

I think it would be a grey area rather than blood magic since, blood magic is the use of blood to power a spell and even that is not really 'blood magic', i mean in the sense that at the lowest level blood magic is just an exhange for lyrim.

[hitenchi]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Templar abilities aren't magic. They don't require mana or blood, and so can't be called magic. Add to that that theoretically anyone can learn the abilities, and it further subtracts from it being magic. It is rather anti-magic actually.
Spirit Warrior and Reaver are far more magical, but aren't really magic either. They are both otherwordly in nature, but the abilities are not of the warrior, but rather from a spirit/demon who grants him his abilities. So again, not really magic, but magical in nature, perhaps.

It seems quite unlikely that templar abilities are a type of magic i would agree, it would seem from talking to Alistar that the lyrim is not needed and may not even help. Though the fact that lyrim supposedly increases their talents power could lead you to believe otherwise. Though arent spirit warriors using magic since they have a special connection to the fade in a similar way mages do?

[hitenchi]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I guess i'm saying taht while their spells are magical, they aren't mages. And mages are the danger, so the chantry isn't hypocritical in their use of Templars.

No one has claimed that they're mages. Simply that the abilities that they use are magic.

I was referring to the so called "hypocrisy" of the Chantry to use the magic of Templars, but restraining the magic of mages. Trying to point out that magic isn't the problem. Mages are.

I think you are both right and wrong, magic is the problem, but templars can only use their talents against mages which mean they are nowhere near as dangerous as mages. I think the circle is needed since mages are dangerous, but so is anyone with power and i mean any type of power, political, army or influence.

[dragonflight288]

It seems quite unlikely that templar abilities are a type of magic i would agree, it would seem from talking to Alistar that the lyrim is not needed and may not even help. Though the fact that lyrim supposedly increases their talents power could lead you to believe otherwise. Though arent spirit warriors using magic since they have a special connection to the fade in a similar way mages do?

Gaider himself said what the templars do is a form of magic. And if you compare their abilities with the school of spirit, they are almost identical. Only templar powers are slightly more diluted and less powerful than a mage practicing the school of spirit. If I were playing a mage warden, who became an arcane warrior and mastered spirit magic, he would be an overpowered templar.

What the templars do are a form of magic, and there are spells that mages cast which can only affect another mage. So the templars are using magic. Just slightly different from the mages and their connection to the Fade.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Runes are a form of magic. Runes don't use blood magic or get possessed by demons. Neither does Templars. Mages do(/can). The usage of Templar abilities is not hypoceisy, since they don't pose the same inherent threat as all mages do.

Also, calling the Templar abilities a dilluted form of spirit magic is stretching it quite a bit. The School of Spirit and Templar abilities has ONE commonality, and otheriwse differ wildly from eachother.

[dragonflight288]

Only if a deal is struck. And demons outside the Fade can make deals with almost anyone. Lady Herriman being a prime example. Not a mage, but she most certainly using some kind of blood magic against Hawke despite not being a mage. And she struck a deal with a demon.

The idea that mages are the only ones is because mages are the ones with the strongest connection to the Fade. They can enter the realm of spirits conscious and aware. They can make a deal while there. Demons already outside the Fade would hop from mortal to mortal, but in that case it could be anyone.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We don't know wether or not Harmann actually were a mage to begin, but it makes little difference. She lived in Kirkwall and encoutnered Allure deep within the maze like Kirkwall underground, a place in which demons have been ntoed to make contact and even grant powers to non-mages.

Of course a demon alraedy outside the Fade will pose a danger to anyone, but to get there, it will need the help of a mage. Or Kirkwall.... Which only is the way it is because of: mages.

Mages are the danger. Not magic.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

So magic, death and all that are evil as well? All of them thin the veil as does burying the dead (making a graveyard) so that's evil too?

[EmperorSahlertz]

I would classify death on a massive scale as bad, yes......... Wouldn't you?

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

Last I checked, there was no lore or explanation citing that as the reason. It was just Andrastian nations. Dwarves seal their dead in Thaigs, and the Qunari believe the soul of their warriors live on in their weapons. The bodies themselves aren't really them anymore.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

Last I checked, there was no lore or explanation citing that as the reason. It was just Andrastian nations. Dwarves seal their dead in Thaigs, and the Qunari believe the soul of their warriors live on in their weapons. The bodies themselves aren't really them anymore.

It was implied in a dev post during development of DA:O iirc. Though true, there is no in-game explanation of the tradition. But I'd wager that it is the most likely reason regardless. Furthermore Dwarven lands have never been plagued by demons (at least not to the same degree), and as thus their culture has been influecned very little by the prospect of the walking dead, and therefore they don't cremate the dead. And we don't know what the Qunari do with the bodies of their dead, only that they don't give them a funeral. But given their usual "waste nothing" attitude, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a fresh batch of fertilizer, whenver someone dropped dead...

[CrimsonZephyr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

Last I checked, there was no lore or explanation citing that as the reason. It was just Andrastian nations. Dwarves seal their dead in Thaigs, and the Qunari believe the soul of their warriors live on in their weapons. The bodies themselves aren't really them anymore.

It's not even all Andrastian nations -- Nevarra, according to codex, has many crypts. Jury's out on whether an army of corpse-seeking demons is also there.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just because you have a crypt does not mean the dead interred within aren't cremated.

[TEWR]

The whole country is filled with artistry, from the statues of heroes that litter the streets in even the meanest villages to the glittering golden College of Magi in Cumberland. Perhaps nowhere is more astonishing than the vast necropolis outside Nevarra City. Unlike most other followers of Andraste, the Nevarrans do not burn their dead. Instead, they carefully preserve the bodies and seal them in elaborate tombs. Some of the wealthiest Nevarrans begin construction of their own tombs while quite young, and these become incredible palaces, complete with gardens, bathhouses, and ballrooms, utterly silent, kept only for the dead.


From the codex entry on Nevarra: http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Nevarra

Nevarra seems to be the Thedosian version of Egypt in terms of how they bury their dead. Whether Nevarran society is anything like Egyptian, I don't know.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 01:13 .

[DarkAmaranth1966]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I would classify death on a massive scale as bad, yes......... Wouldn't you?

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

Ah there is the problem, you are using bad and evil synonomously. Bad is not evil. Yes death is bad but not evil. Bad is how something affects you the souce of a negative emotional response, or that response.  Evil is a moral state.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I would classify death on a massive scale as bad, yes......... Wouldn't you?

Burying the dead does not thin the veil. It does however leave a corpse for demons to posses. That is the reason for the tradition of cremation in Thedas.

Ah there is the problem, you are using bad and evil synonomously. Bad is not evil. Yes death is bad but not evil. Bad is how something affects you the souce of a negative emotional response, or that response.  Evil is a moral state.

The only mistake is using a term as subjective an culturally inclined term as "evil". True evil does not, and cannot, exist in our world. But that subject is a sidetrack...

I'd classify anything that sunders the veil as a very bad thing. Be that the simple miscast of a spell, or death on a massive scale.