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[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The whole country is filled with artistry, from the statues of heroes that litter the streets in even the meanest villages to the glittering golden College of Magi in Cumberland. Perhaps nowhere is more astonishing than the vast necropolis outside Nevarra City. Unlike most other followers of Andraste, the Nevarrans do not burn their dead. Instead, they carefully preserve the bodies and seal them in elaborate tombs. Some of the wealthiest Nevarrans begin construction of their own tombs while quite young, and these become incredible palaces, complete with gardens, bathhouses, and ballrooms, utterly silent, kept only for the dead.


From the codex entry on Nevarra: http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Nevarra

Nevarra seems to be the Thedosian version of Egypt in terms of how they bury their dead. Whether Nevarran society is anything like Egyptian, I don't know.

I stand corrected. But the dead are "sealed" within their tombs, which leads me to believe that Nevarreans(?) also take measures to prevent, the corpses of their dead to become a problem.

[TEWR]

Definitely possible.

Or it's just some ancient tradition dating back thousands of years and it has absolutely nothing to do with possession risk. Which would mean that the lack of possessed corpses would just be an added bonus, and not their original intent for the entombing.

It'd be nice to see Nevarra one day. But I would also hope Nevarra City was made to be alive -- puns intended? -- so to speak.

Now I'm curious as to what a demon possessed corpse might do if it realized it was in an elaborate tomb complete with a garden, ballroom, and bathhouse. Would it go mad for being all alone (assuming the act of possessing the corpse didn't make it insane like we so commonly see)? Or would it enjoy having its own personal palace?

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Now I'm curious as to what a demon possessed corpse might do if it realized it was in an elaborate tomb complete with a garden, ballroom, and bathhouse. Would it go mad for being all alone (assuming the act of possessing the corpse didn't make it insane like we so commonly see)? Or would it enjoy having its own personal palace?

I think madness is nearly inevitable - what use is a garden of flowers that the dead cannot smell? What use is a ballroom with giant mirrors just so the dead can look upon its own dessicated body? What use is a bathhouse when its waters would only serve to deform the corpse further? It might even be that the Fade spirit within the corpse goes into rage even quicker because of being tempted with so many things it cannot have...

From the Pen&Paper RPG books:

"The demons of the Fade have a terrible hunger for the pleasures of the world that they sense across the gulf of the Veil. Their jealousy causes them to claw at the walls of their perceived prison, forever testing the boundaries of the Fade. When a demon finally manages to break through, it must immediately seek out a form to possess lest it be pulled back across the Veil to the Fade. Unfortunately for the demons, the Veil is weakest in places where there have been a great many deaths, such as battlefields and pestilence-ridden villages, and many demons end up possessing the forms of the dead. The rage and frustration of such beings is near unimaginable. To have finally broken through to the world of the living with all the delicious pleasures it holds only to be trapped within a corpse that can barely sustain itself is infuriating. Almost uniformly, these demons go insane, abandoning even the strange reasoning of their kind for howling madness."

Modifié par Lynata, 11 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It would probably depend on the type of demon to possess the corpse.

A generic hunger or rage demon would undoubtably go mad, consumed by the emotion it embody (the more powerful ones of the type could probably withstand it though).

A Sloth demon would probably not mind at all, but as I recall, Sloth possessions are rather rare, and I have a hard time imagining a reason for a sloth demon to purposely possess an entombed corpse.

A Desire demon go mad depending on the aspect of desire it embody. If it is luxury it embodies, it would probably be jsut fine, in the elaborate and luxurous tombs of the rich folks of Nevarra. If it is power it desires, I'd imagine it'd go mad.

Pride would be even harder to predict, due to the complexity of that kind of demons' personality.

Add to that the added complexity of the diseased persons' memories, and you may end up with a trapped demon, believing that it is the deceased person, actually living in the afterlife.

[CuriousArtemis]

What do I think about blood magic... hmmm, guess I don't really care? I don't really superimpose myself onto my Hawke's, and they each have a different view of this and other things. So I guess I'm just the player, along for the ride? ^^

[Lord Gremlin]

I think that's a perfect opportunity to make a darker path in a DA game. You know, gaining huge gameplay benefits, but limiting your choices and ending outcomes.

In Origins I've always wanted an army of demons to follow my mage around. No luck, probably because Pride ones would get stuck in every door...

[Lynata]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
I think that's a perfect opportunity to make a darker path in a DA game. You know, gaining huge gameplay benefits, but limiting your choices and ending outcomes.

Yes, gameplaywise there's a lot of potential in the idea - though only if these benefits also come with the disadvantages you mentioned. Every action begets a reaction, after all, and consequence should be a big theme in any RPG.

For example - this is from a scene which was unfortunately cut from DA:O. Stuff like this needs to be put into the game, and expanded upon.

[TEWR]

It does have other applications in regards to the story, though. Despite his gruesome methods, Avernus made a lot of major breakthroughs with his research. I never kill or exile him because of this.

The funny thing is that Avernus did exactly what should've been done in that situation IMO. Now, his summoning of demons was certainly something that should not have been done, but he can't be condemned for his actions afterwards.

Wynne's statement on how the Wardens know there are limits is a crock of bull****. The Wardens are willing to do some things that aren't "nice", like burning villages that have been subjected to the Darkspawn to save the cities farther out, even if there are villagers still in said burning village. Alistair even says the Wardens are sometimes forced to do some things that are pretty extreme.

Hell, the Warden Commander can even destroy Amaranthine City because of this concept.

They are pretty much the definition of "Good Is Not Always Nice". What few Wardens were there would've died anyway. The demons had turned on the Wardens and were slaughtering them as well. They didn't stand a chance against a demonic invasion, especially when the demons could counter the magic Avernus -- and his acolytes -- employed.

So he tried to do a two-for-one deal: Refine the power within the Taint which would help defeat future Blights and try and figure out a way to use the power within the Taint against the demons. While at the same time employing his magic to keep the demons out of the Tower, so that he could at least experiment and research safely.

Unfortunately, 80-90 days after he retreated and began his experiments the rest of the Wardens perished and he only had limited success in what he wanted to do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mars 2012 - 06:25 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Using your sworn battle-brothers as unwilling test-subjects is never "what had to be done".....

[Urzon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Using your sworn battle-brothers as unwilling test-subjects is never "what had to be done".....

Did he need the whole body living for the experiments, or did he just need the Grey Warden blood, dead or otherwise? I could never really tell.

Sure, it showed a body impaled on spikes in the room, but i can't really see Avernus as the type to kill all his remaining brothers just for the sake of progress. Even more so when that progress would be useless since he is trapped in that room because of the demons. I can see him using their bodies after they have died though.

I'm guessing that most of the remaining Wardens were wounded and died because of the that. While the rest slowly died off because of lack of food and water. He then used the dead bodies to start researching again. Since they would have only rotted on the floor anyway, and there was nothing else really to do. He is very Qunari in that sense. Why waste a good resource?

Modifié par Urzon, 14 mars 2012 - 11:24 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Urzon wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Using your sworn battle-brothers as unwilling test-subjects is never "what had to be done".....

Did he need the whole body living for the experiments, or did he just need the Grey Warden blood, dead or otherwise? I could never really tell.

Sure, it showed a body impaled on spikes in the room, but i can't really see Avernus as the type to kill all his remaining brothers just for the sake of progress. Even more so when that progress would be useless since he is trapped in that room because of the demons. I can see him using their bodies after they have died though.

I'm guessing that most of the remaining Wardens were wounded and died because of the that. While the rest slowly died off because of lack of food and water. He then used the dead bodies to start researching again. Since they would have only rotted on the floor anyway, and there was nothing else really to do. He is very Qunari in that sense. Why waste a good resource?

Ifthey were willing, or already dead, then why on earth would he need to keep them in cages?

[Urzon]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ifthey were willing, or already dead, then why on earth would he need to keep them in cages?

Maybe they went insane? Being stuck in a single room with the undead and demons scratching at the door, and them seeing  their leader's rotting body walking and talking can do that to people.

Or some of the Grey Wardens' dead bodies got possessed, and they became undead. Avernus captured them, and he stuck them in cages so he could drain the remaining blood to use it for his experiments.

Other than that, I have no idea.

Modifié par Urzon, 14 mars 2012 - 01:45 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Urzon wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ifthey were willing, or already dead, then why on earth would he need to keep them in cages?

Maybe they went insane? Being stuck in a single room with the undead and demons scratching at the door, and them seeing  their leader's rotting body walking and talking can do that to people.

Or some of the Grey Wardens' dead bodies got possessed, and they became undead. Avernus captured them, and he stuck them in cages so he could drain the remaining blood to use it for his experiments.

Other than that, I have no idea.

That seems rather far fetched that that should be the case, especially since all we are given is a cage. Far more likely that the cage simply represents, that he was conducting his experiments against the will of his fellows. Otherwise I'd also imagine he'd be a little more defensive about his actions, if they had all been in on it.

[Pasquale1234]

Lynata wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
I think that's a perfect opportunity to make a darker path in a DA game. You know, gaining huge gameplay benefits, but limiting your choices and ending outcomes.

Yes, gameplaywise there's a lot of potential in the idea - though only if these benefits also come with the disadvantages you mentioned. Every action begets a reaction, after all, and consequence should be a big theme in any RPG.

For example - this is from a scene which was unfortunately cut from DA:O. Stuff like this needs to be put into the game, and expanded upon.

Very interesting scene - I would imagine it was cut to give the Warden some plot armor, and would guess that players who want to use blood magic would be pretty unhappy about such consequences.

Other ideas would include sustaining an injury every time blood magic is used, taking longer to heal after a battle, or needing to carry bandages.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Using your sworn battle-brothers as unwilling test-subjects is never "what had to be done".....

They were going to die anyway. At least this way something good came from their deaths.

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Very interesting scene - I would imagine it was cut to give the Warden some plot armor, and would guess that players who want to use blood magic would be pretty unhappy about such consequences.

Other ideas would include sustaining an injury every time blood magic is used, taking longer to heal after a battle, or needing to carry bandages.

It was actually cut because it caused a bug with the Landsmeet and -- IIRC -- wasn't able to be fixed.

greengoron89 wrote...

I agree, for the most part - I still couldn't fully condone the brutality of his experiments - but given the circumstances, he did what had to be done.

I think the same of Branka - easy to hate her for what happened to Hespith, but she did what she had to do to try and secure the Anvil. I don't like it, but I respect it.

Branka's a weird issue for me. From a certain viewpoint, I can understand -- and even agree somewhat -- with her wanting to use Darkspawn against Caridin's traps. But at the same time, I also find it incredibly foolish that she would do such a thing by creating an endless army.

The Darkspawn would've poured into the Anvil's chambers in such numbers that the remaining Golems there would've been killed -- Caridin included -- and the Anvil possibly destroyed.

There is some merit to the "endless army" idea she created to use as test subjects, but it's ultimately worthless once you realize what the Darkspawn would do once they got there.

I also can't condone her actions with her house. Well, sending them to the traps maybe. If they died then and there and she succeeded their names might go down in history. But when she was indirectly making broodmothers? I can't condone that. And I find her to be an idiot for thinking it would work without any problems whatsoever.

Not to mention those "traps" aren't really all that difficult. Turn off the gas valves and pound on a Spirit Anvil when it glows. Doesn't take a person with an IQ of 213 to figure that out. Some Paragon she is.

Also, my eternal hatred of the Orzammar quest chain when playing a Dwarf Noble knows no bounds. Bah...

Anyway, I'd hope Avernus' experiments would have a more profound influence on the Grey Wardens' future than simply producing a potion (which Hawke takes for his/herself). It would be a waste for both the experiments and Soldier's Peak itself to simply be a footnote when they're capable of being so much more.

I too hope that Bioware decides to do something with Avernus' research considering he made some pretty important discoveries -- discoveries that led to someone moving against the Wardens and hiring thugs to bring them any documents concerning Warden activities.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 mars 2012 - 10:15 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Using your sworn battle-brothers as unwilling test-subjects is never "what had to be done".....

They were going to die anyway. At least this way something good came from their deaths.

Flawed logic. Everyone has to die eventually, but that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want to eachother. Using unwilling test subjects, despite the subject's hopeless fate, is plain and simple wrong.

[TEWR]

Flawed logic. Everyone has to die eventually, but that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want to eachother.

This is flawed logic. Everyone doesn't die because they're trapped in a fortress with dozens of demons constantly pouring out of the woodwork.

The situation is not normal, and as such cannot be held to what normally happens.

Using unwilling test subjects, despite the subject's hopeless fate, is plain and simple wrong.

As I pointed out earlier, the Wardens are exactly the definition of "Good is not always nice".

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Flawed logic. Everyone has to die eventually, but that doesn't mean we can do whatever we want to eachother.

This is flawed logic. Everyone doesn't die because they're trapped in a fortress with dozens of demons constantly pouring out of the woodwork.

The situation is not normal, and as such cannot be held to what normally happens.

Using unwilling test subjects, despite the subject's hopeless fate, is plain and simple wrong.

As I pointed out earlier, the Wardens are exactly the definition of "Good is not always nice".

And you have undisputable proof that whatever Avernus found was good? More power does not equals good. The Grey Wardens had been perfectly capable of defeating the Blights prior to his findings for over 2000 years. I sincerely doubt whatever he found, will be anything else than just a way to increase the Warden's power (and whatever dark secret he insinuate at too).

And it doesn't matter that "it isn't a normal situation". Actually that is complete and utter bull. If the moment you are in "an uncommon situation" normal moral conventions break down, then why the **** keep them at all. Just for show, so that you can polish your halo and lie to yourself that you are a good person. But the moment oppertunity presents itself, you will commit henious acts of depravity, just because you can?

Morals supercede situations and are universal, you either have them or you don't, and they pertain in all situations common and uncommon.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And you have undisputable proof that whatever Avernus found was good? More power does not equals good. The Grey Wardens had been perfectly capable of defeating the Blights prior to his findings for over 2000 years. I sincerely doubt whatever he found, will be anything else than just a way to increase the Warden's power (and whatever dark secret he insinuate at too).

What he found when the Warden comes by can help in defeating the Blight. It makes it easier. Yes the Warden defeats the Blight anyway, but these abilites can help determine how many Darkspawn the Warden kills. He may only kill a dozen before being rendered unconscious without them, but maybe with them he kills twenty.

It may determine how easily the Warden defeats the Architect or the Mother, or both. These are facts. The fact that he's able to reproduce the effects alchemically shows that in future Joinings down the line Wardens will have access to these abilities.

Blights have gone on for years -- sometimes decades or centuries -- before they were ended. The only reason that the Fifth Blight was ended was because of the quick response time and the fact that Cailan immediately listened to the Grey Wardens.

But what happens if the next Blight catches the world in the midst of a global civil war where no one wants to listen to reason? The Grey Wardens would need their power -- the power that's indeed in the Taint -- to help defeat the Blight.

What Avernus discovered are abilities that unlock part of the true power that the Taint holds. He is also intent on refining the Joining so that people can take in the power and not the poison.

How is that not something worth researching? How is that not something that's good?

And it doesn't matter that "it isn't a normal situation". Actually that is complete and utter bull. If the moment you are in "an uncommon situation" normal moral conventions break down, then why the **** keep them at all. Just for show, so that you can polish your halo and lie to yourself that you are a good person. But the moment oppertunity presents itself, you will commit henious acts of depravity, just because you can?

What you're doing now is trying to impose moral absolutism on the situation and ignore the actual context of it along with the motivations. You're focusing on the murder and torture of the Wardens without realizing that he was motivated to do what he did by two things:

1) Giving Warden's greater powers against the Blight
2) Finding a way to fight back against the demons that he had unleashed.

Both of those reasons condone the actions. A way for him to defeat the demons and undo his greatest of mistakes -- which he'll tell the Warden -- and return Soldier's Keep to the way it was. He's even glad that the Warden slaughtered demons throughout the Keep, citing it as a "welcome and temporary imbalance".

And there is one reason why the Wardens may have been in cages. Assuming it went down like this:

Avernus: We need to fight back against the demons. Maybe the Taint can help us. But I would need to find more power from it.
Warden Acolyte A: We'll volunteer to be your subjects. You're the leading authority on this matter.
Avernus: My experiments will more then likely be extremely painful in order to work.
Warden Acolyte A: Then you should lock us up in cages incase we plead for you to stop. That way, we can't run away.
Warden Acolyte B: I agree.
Warden Acolyte C: Me too.

Now that's just assuming that's what happened or was the general gist of what happened.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 01:39 .

[dragonflight288]

A great deal of our medical knowledge today comes from the ****'s performing brutal experiments during the holocaust. Should we cast aside knowledge that saves lives because of the source of it? Or does refining the joining and limiting the deaths from it not a worthwhile goal? Or maybe we should have let the demon invade the world without anything to stop them. True, the world would face an army of demons that can possess anyone who makes a deal with them, mage or not (Sophia being a prime example) because doing dirty work is just too disgusting that we can't get the mages robes dirty.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A great deal of our medical knowledge today comes from the ****'s performing brutal experiments during the holocaust. Should we cast aside knowledge that saves lives because of the source of it? Or does refining the joining and limiting the deaths from it not a worthwhile goal? Or maybe we should have let the demon invade the world without anything to stop them. True, the world would face an army of demons that can possess anyone who makes a deal with them, mage or not (Sophia being a prime example) because doing dirty work is just too disgusting that we can't get the mages robes dirty.

Oh? I suppose, since the ****s made such great medical achievements, it was perfectly fine whatever they did in those camps? I mean, the Jews were going to die in those camps anyway, might aswell scrap whatever fragment of humanity you have left, and commit despicable acts of torture on the poor souls, right?

Whatever the end result is, to road towards it can be immoral. That doesn't detract from the result persay, but it simply means that the way it was achieved was highly immoral.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 15 mars 2012 - 08:41 .

[Boofydoof]

Awesome One of my players are a shapeshifter bloodmage