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[TEWR]

greengoron89 wrote...

As far as the Broodmother goes, I don't think she really wanted that to happen - I think she just tried to take advantage of it as it was going to happen anyway. I recall Branka saying that Hespith and the others left of their own free will, and were subsequently captured by darkspawn who took them and did... those things... to the prisoners.

She also said they managed to escape and return to Branka - but were apparently dying from corruption, and starting to "change" in the case of the women. There wasn't really much choice at that point but for her to either kill them out of mercy, or abandon them to their fates - Branka chose the latter, for better or worse.

Still, it was absolutely horrific what happened to Hespith and her other house mates - I get a little sick to my stomach every time I hit that part of the game. But they were in a desperate situation, and Branka felt the Anvil was worth the sacrifice.

Okay, that does change the situation a bit. When she wanted them to go off and defeat the traps in their healthy state, then that's certainly something I can condone, so long as she was willing to tell the Shaperate of their sacrifice. If she wasn't, then it's something I can't condone because she then treated their lives as not only expendable, but worthless.

But when they ran away and became tainted, then their fate was inevitable. And possibly made her unable to kill them given that Ghouls are very violent creatures. So her actions become better. She's the best smith in Orzammar at the time, so were she to die the chance for the Anvil to be used goes with it. So she ultimately had to let them become broodmothers.

Still horrible, but it's not her fault it happened.

Also, agreed on Paragon of Her Kind being a little shaky at times when playing as a DN. The origin didn't integrate quite as well into the quest as I'd hoped - and Of Noble Birth is broken and never completes successfully. I did enjoy getting some more insight into Bhelen's character if you support him, however - he presents a good case for his actions if you question him about his betrayal, and makes me hate cooperating with him less.

He also coughs up some remorse if you side with Harrowmont, then crown Bhelen at the last second. He's really not the super evil douchebag the game tries to make him out to be.

A little? Man, the whole entire quest chain is bonkers because it doesn't recognize that the politics of Orzammar would allow for a Dwarf Noble to become king.

First, there's the Provings. The Proving exists so that the Ancestors can choose who has their favor. This one is a Glory Proving held in the memory of King Endrin and both Harrowmont and Bhelen entered to win, hoping that victory would mean they're the ones for the throne.

The Dwarf Noble can enter independently. When he wins, they should have a moment where they want to see the face of the victor that the Ancestors deemed worthy of their favor, and the Dwarf Noble would be able to exclaim that he -- an exiled Dwarf -- has won the favor of the Ancestors. Boom, people are wondering if maybe he's the true king. 

Second, there's the possibility to exonerate the Dwarf Noble of their crimes by finding evidence in Jarvia's hideout linking Bhelen to Trian's murder -- if he didn't kill Trian. This destroys much of Bhelen's support.

Third, Branka -- and I think Caridin -- says that the Dwarf Noble should take the crown back and give it to whomever they deem worthy of the crown. The obvious choice for a politically savvy Dwarf Noble isn't to say "Bhelen" or "Harrowmont". It's to say "Me".

That last one alone is enough to gain the throne, but the whole entire quest chain allows for the Dwarf Noble to gain support.

Additionally, it would make sense for Harrowmont to withdraw from the runnings but say that he's supporting a new candidate for the throne: the Dwarf Noble.

Political neutrality be damned. The Wardens are already politically involved at this point and Alistair can become the King/Queen of Ferelden. The Human Noble can become the King/Queen Consort, be named Teyrn of Gwaren or Chancellor to the Throne, and any Warden is named Arl of Amaranthine.

This is actually probably one of the biggest plot holes in the whole game. And that's why my fanfic is addressing this by having Xanthos Aeducan take the throne of Orzammar. If I had modding capabilities -- hell if I had the PC version of Origins -- I'd mod the game to allow for this.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 01:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Dwarf noble is: an exiled, a surfacer and a grey warden, all of which by tradition, are denied the right to hold any kind og title in Orzammar. You know how Dwarfs are with their traditions. The Dwarf Noble had no chance of ever becoming king. But it matters not. He became Paragon which outranks King anyway.

[TEWR]

The Dwarf noble is: an exiled, a surfacer and a grey warden, all of which by tradition, are denied the right to hold any kind og title in Orzammar. You know how Dwarfs are with their traditions. The Dwarf Noble had no chance of ever becoming king. But it matters not. He became Paragon which outranks King anyway.

Irrelevant. The will of the Ancestors trumps whatever the Dwarves that are currently alive do. If a Paragon says the Dwarf Noble can give it to whomever he/she wishes, then that trumps what the Dwarves did.

It's a plot hole.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Dwarf noble is: an exiled, a surfacer and a grey warden, all of which by tradition, are denied the right to hold any kind og title in Orzammar. You know how Dwarfs are with their traditions. The Dwarf Noble had no chance of ever becoming king. But it matters not. He became Paragon which outranks King anyway.

Irrelevant. The will of the Ancestors trumps whatever the Dwarves that are currently alive do. If a Paragon says the Dwarf Noble can give it to whomever he/she wishes, then that trumps what the Dwarves did.

It's a plot hole.

If you were to suggest to give it to an effectively casteless, the asembly would probably charge you with corruption, treason and general disrespect of nobelity and have you executed for the mere notion of having one, not of noble birth (since the Dwarven Noble lost his status as nobility) to wear the crown. All they are going from, is your word, and if you favor yourself, that would sound remarkably much like "rigging the game", true or not. 

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you were to suggest to give it to an effectively casteless, the asembly would probably charge you with corruption, treason and general disrespect of nobelity and have you executed for the mere notion of having one, not of noble birth (since the Dwarven Noble lost his status as nobility) to wear the crown. All they are going from, is your word, and if you favor yourself, that would sound remarkably much like "rigging the game", true or not. 

Again, the Ancestors' voice automatically trumps whatever a bunch of short-sighted, politically corrupt Dwarves on the Assembly decree.

You say I would be charged with corruption and treason? The same could be said of Bhelen once I find the evidence that proves he was the one that killed Trian by hiring casteless thugs. That automatically makes me seem like the more honest one, especially when I was the preferred candidate for the throne.

This isn't rigging the game. Not when I have Oghren to back me up. Not when Branka is still alive and can vouch for what was said. Even if it seems that way, they weren't there and they can't say what did and didn't happen.

Notice how Harrowmont says he can't go against the will of a Paragon when Bhelen's crowned, even if I've been consistently pro-Bhelen throughout the quest and Harrowmont doesn't believe that Branka said such a thing.

It is a plot hole. The politics of Orzammar say that what the Ancestors decree -- and the Paragons are living Ancestors -- cannot be argued against.

Even if they find it suspicious, they cannot argue against it. Because then they would be questioning the words of a Paragon, which doesn't happen in Dwarven society.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 01:48 .

[TEWR]

Yeah, if you stick around at her camp after she sends you into the Gauntlet, she'll chatter a bit about what happened and why she did what she did. It sounds like ravings of a madwoman, but a lot of what she actually says makes sense if you think on it for a bit.

Not quite the evil loony she's made out to be - DA:O loves to do that with its "villains." It's one of the reasons I love the game so much - nothing is ever as it seems, and to really get to the bottom of things you have to be observant and do a lot of critical thinking.

Yea I remember that dialogue, but I had only really heard snippets of it because the music often overshadowed what was said.

LOL. You make a good case, and it's something I've thought about as well.

On the other hand, I like to think my character ultimately chooses being a Grey Warden over being king - seems unlikely you could be both at the same time, unless you take Harrowmont on as a steward (if that's allowed).

Nice you still become a Paragon either way - in dwarven society, I think that makes you "higher" than the king in many ways. It always makes me feel like a bad ass when wrapping up a DN playthrough.

I actually always do kill Trian, however - the confrontation between you two in the Deep Roads is pretty epic, and it makes Bhelen's betrayal and Endrin's death hit a little harder IMHO.

Yea, but what about the Dwarf Nobles who see the Grey Wardens as the perfect way to get revenge on Bhelen? Of course they don't know the intricacies of the Joining, but that's what was going through my DN's head when I played.

And yea, you could make Harrowmont an advisor to the throne -- since he was Endrin's advisor and the High General. So he could probably rule in your stead -- making decisions you would -- while you're out defeating the Blight.

Or becoming King could open up a series of quests where you lead men into old Thaigs to reclaim them and have sessions of the Assembly where you're ruling.

I just like the idea of proving myself innocent, taking the throne, and then gaining support from the human lands and subsequently being named Paragon. That to me says something on how politically savvy I am rather then just being named Paragon and maybe taking the throne later on.

RE: Trian -- I've never killed him myself, because while he's an ass he does care about his brother. I just wish that I had the option to call out Bhelen when he's "warning" me about Trian. I'd still be unable to save Trian, but at least I wouldn't have to play the politically ignorant and naive Dwarf Noble. On my first DN playthrough, I knew what Bhelen was up to. It was just too.... convenient.

I'm either used or dense. That's just bad.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If you were to suggest to give it to an effectively casteless, the asembly would probably charge you with corruption, treason and general disrespect of nobelity and have you executed for the mere notion of having one, not of noble birth (since the Dwarven Noble lost his status as nobility) to wear the crown. All they are going from, is your word, and if you favor yourself, that would sound remarkably much like "rigging the game", true or not. 

Again, the Ancestors' voice automatically trumps whatever a bunch of short-sighted, politically corrupt Dwarves on the Assembly decree.

You say I would be charged with corruption and treason? The same could be said of Bhelen once I find the evidence that proves he was the one that killed Bhelen by hiring casteless thugs. That automatically makes me seem like the more honest one, especially when I was the preferred candidate for the throne.

This isn't rigging the game. Not when I have Oghren to back me up. Not when Branka is still alive and can vouch for what was said. Even if it seems that way, they weren't there and they can't say what did and didn't happen.

Notice how Harrowmont says he can't go against the will of a Paragon when Bhelen's crowned, even if I've been consistently pro-Bhelen throughout the quest and Harrowmont doesn't believe that Branka said such a thing.

It is a plot hole. The politics of Orzammar say that what the Ancestors decree -- and the Paragons are living Ancestors -- cannot be argued against.

Even if they find it suspicious, they cannot argue against it. Because then they would be questioning the words of a Paragon, which doesn't happen in Dwarven society.

I THINK that if a Casteless surfacer were to walk in the hall of Assembly and claim that a Paragon had declared him king, and that all the Assembly should bow to him, then that surfacer would find himself on a very short trip down a lavastream....

Now if Branka/Caridin had shown up in person, and proclaimed the Dwarf Noble King, THEN they would have been forced to accept it. However, she/he did not, and therefore all the Assembly have is the Dwarf Nobles claim, which sounds suspeciously self-promoting...

[TEWR]

THINK that if a Casteless surfacer were to walk in the hall of Assembly and claim that a Paragon had declared him king, and that all the Assembly should bow to him, then that surfacer would find himself on a very short trip down a lavastream....

Now if Branka/Caridin had shown up in person, and proclaimed the Dwarf Noble King, THEN they would have been forced to accept it. However, she/he did not, and therefore all the Assembly have is the Dwarf Nobles claim, which sounds suspeciously self-promoting...

Except I'm not just "walking in". I'm returning from a mission to find the Paragon Smith herself -- of which the opposing side knew about -- and with a crown that was forged on the Anvil.

Harrowmont's words when I return from a pro-Bhelen arc and crown Bhelen king renders your argument invalid, especially when the crown is known to be of Paragon make.

Oghren: Branka still lives, though she's as mad as a nug at a tanner shop. She tasked this Grey Warden to crown Orzammar's next king, the first to lead a Golem army against the Blight!

Harrowmont: I would like to believe Oghren's words but it's well known the Grey Warden is Bhelen's hireling. (Bhelen says basically the same thing)

Steward Bandelor: Enough! We've argued in these halls for too long. Tell us Grey Warden, who did Paragon Branka endorse?

Grey Warden: She told me to give it to whomever I choose.

Steward Bandelor acknowledges that the Grey Warden was told by the Paragons to choose whomever he/she wants. Harrowmont says when Bhelen is crowned king that he cannot defy the Paragons.

As I said before, whatever suspicions they may have are irrelevant because Dwarven society says a Paragon's words are unquestionable. To go against them means to go against the Ancestors. You may think that it looks like it's being rigged in my favor, but that does not change how Dwarven society actually operates.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 01:53 .

[TEWR]

you know what happens when you defy the word of a Paragon? You die.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Indeed, and when you claim that a paragon chose you to be king, a casteless, you will be killed for slander, despite your previous status. The Dwarven Noble simply can't become King of Orzammar, and Orzamamr politics would never approve of it. Sure he could *claim* that the Paragon chose him to be king (which would be stretching what was said), but that would be all it was, a claim, and until proven, both harrowmont and Behlen would oppose it. They aren't about to accept a third contender. And by the way, Behlen certainly doesn't accept the words of the paragon if they go against him, nor does half the Assembly. So much for Dwarven adherence to Paragons eh?

[TEWR]

Indeed, and when you claim that a paragon chose you to be king, a casteless, you will be killed for slander, despite your previous status

I'm a Grey Warden, an honored person in the city. My word is respected, even if they have suspicions. They can't kill me for fear of them being proven wrong by the Ancestors. They may not like what I have to say, but if they were to try and kill me the Ancestors would intervene. The first person to try and kill me because he thought I wasn't speaking honestly would be killed.

I could challenge that person to an Honor Proving like that one Dwarf accused of killing his brother did, where he won and was never again accused of the same crime.

A servant who was made casteless did the same thing to a noble and won, earning the favor of the Ancestors.

The Ancestors' voice trumps that of an Assembly Deshyr.

. The Dwarven Noble simply can't become King of Orzammar, and Orzamamr politics would never approve of it. Sure he could *claim* that the Paragon chose him to be king (which would be stretching what was said),

It's not stretching it when the Paragon said "Give it to whomever you choose". That means anyone. Even someone who was wrongly made Casteless. Even someone that found proof exonerating them of the charge of committing fratricide.
 

but that would be all it was, a claim, and until proven, both harrowmont and Behlen would oppose it. They aren't about to accept a third contender. And by the way, Behlen certainly doesn't accept the words of the paragon if they go against him, nor does half the Assembly. So much for Dwarven adherence to Paragons eh?

Bhelen only challenges the word of the Paragons because he wants the throne, not because he disagrees with what the Paragon said.

If you want it to be proven, then maybe there should be a little note on the inside of the crown saying "For whomever the Grey Warden deems worthy. Signed, Paragon ______". Maybe there should be a dialogue option saying "Can you give me proof of what you just said, since I want the throne?" from the Paragon in question.

It's irrelevant to the fact that the whole entire structure of Dwarven society allows for a Dwarf Noble to become King and yet he can't use it to his advantage. It's irrelevant to the fact that Dwarven society dictates that a Paragon's word is unquestionable, and to do so equals death.

The word of a Paragon carries an equal weight to that of the King. Not through any special political power, but because the word of a Paragon is held in that much respect by all dwarves.

There's also the story of Gherlon the Casteless being true. That story the DC is told by Rica says that he was born casteless and came back to Orzammar where he won the throne. There's a mountain stretch of road that's called Gherlen's Pass.

House Bemot had their founder become a Paragon and King in one move, and he was a commoner.

Dwarven society shows that the Dwarf Noble can become King using what happens in Orzammar, no matter what suspicions may be held. That it seems suspicious to you is irrelevant because no one dares to question a Paragon's word. Bhelen only does so because he wanted the throne, not because he thought the Paragon's words were a sham.

The Dwarf Noble can -- as I said above -- challenge any dissenters to an Honor Proving, where the winner has the favor of the Ancestors and the truth of the matter was spoken by them.

Meaning I can challenge any dissenters, kill them if need be, and prove that the Ancestors favored me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 avril 2012 - 01:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed, and when you claim that a paragon chose you to be king, a casteless, you will be killed for slander, despite your previous status

I'm also a Grey Warden and thus an honored person of the city, and I'm on official business to take care of the Blight. They can't kill me.

 
A Grey Warden, who by law are not allowed to hold any titles. Yes. Sure, once the Fifth Blight is over, you get to be Arl, but to my knowledge while the throne in Orzammar was in dispute, the Fifth Blight was still going strong.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

. The Dwarven Noble simply can't become King of Orzammar, and Orzamamr politics would never approve of it. Sure he could *claim* that the Paragon chose him to be king (which would be stretching what was said),

It's not stretching it when the Paragon said "Give it to whomever you choose". That means anyone. Even someone who was wrongly made Casteless. Even someone that found proof exonerating them of the charge of committing fratricide.

Free to choose, between the two candidates...

[TEWR]

A Grey Warden, who by law are not allowed to hold any titles. Yes. Sure, once the Fifth Blight is over, you get to be Arl, but to my knowledge while the throne in Orzammar was in dispute, the Fifth Blight was still going strong.

While the Fifth Blight is going on, the Wardens are already politically involved up to their asses. They're taking on a Regent, settling a civil war in the country, settling disputes in a Dwarven Civil War, and can potentially crown the Warden or Alistair as King (Consort) of Ferelden (or Queen Consort if a female Warden).

Political neutrality no longer has any meaning at this time and is not a valid argument for why it can't be done.

Never mind the fact that Orzammar doesn't follow surfacer laws.

Free to choose, between the two candidates...

Free to choose, period. No restrictions were placed on who to choose from by either of the Paragons. If anyone wants to claim I'm lying, I can declare an Honor Proving. This has been done a few times in Orzammar's history, sometimes by casteless.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 07:54 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

A Grey Warden, who by law are not allowed to hold any titles. Yes. Sure, once the Fifth Blight is over, you get to be Arl, but to my knowledge while the throne in Orzammar was in dispute, the Fifth Blight was still going strong.

While the Fifth Blight is going on, the Wardens are already politically involved up to their asses. They're taking on a Regent, settling a civil war in the country, settling disputes in a Dwarven Civil War, and can potentially crown the Warden or Alistair as King (Consort) of Ferelden (or Queen Consort if a female Warden).

Political neutrality no longer has any meaning at this time and is not a valid argument for why it can't be done.

Yeah, the Grey Wardens would probably not appreciate that you exacerpate things....

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Free to choose, between the two candidates...

Free to choose, period. No restrictions were placed on who to choose from by either of the Paragons.

Matter of interpretation. Which is exactly what the nobles will claim, and demand clarification from the Paragon herself. If it is from Caridin, he will be dead, conviniently, and it will be word against word. Simply put, the Dwarf Noble doesn't even have half of the power base you try and make it out he has.

[TEWR]

Yeah, the Grey Wardens would probably not appreciate that you exacerpate things....

Right, because the Grey Wardens were certainly pissed off that the Warden got politically involved in the first place.

Oh wait, they weren't.

Matter of interpretation. Which is exactly what the nobles will claim, and demand clarification from the Paragon herself. If it is from Caridin, he will be dead, conviniently, and it will be word against word. Simply put, the Dwarf Noble doesn't even have half of the power base you try and make it out he has.

Like I've said twice before -- three times total counting this: Honor Provings. These allow for the Ancestors' voice to carry on. If a person is accused of a crime or wants to prove what they're saying is the truth, they can declare one.

This was done by the Noble accused of killing his brother -- I forget his name. Might've been the Ivo guy. Not Frandlin, but someone else -- as well as a Dwarf that once belonged to the servant caste before his father was called a thief and the entire family was made casteless.


Valos atredum. In the 23rd year of the reign of King Ragnan Aeducan, an old man of the Servant Caste was accused of stealing a sapphire ring from his employer, Lord Dace. The servant was stripped of his position, he and his family thrown to the streets, and soon after, the servant died.

The son of the disgraced servant challenged Lord Dace to a Proving, declaring that his father had been the victim of a cruel injustice and the ancestors would bear him witness. Lord Dace had no choice but to accept.

On the sacred stone of the Proving Ground, the nobleman faced the servant boy. Lord Dace carried a sword crafted for his own hand and was clad in his great-grandfather's armor. The servant boy had neither armor nor weapon. When the battle began, the boy fought like a whole pack of angry deepstalkers, flinging himself upon the startled lord, wrenching the sword from his hand, and prying at his armor with bare fingers. The boy knocked Lord Dace to the ground and beat him until the lord begged for mercy.

The boy and his family were reinstated to their place in the Dace household, and the virtue of the boy's father was not questioned again. The ancestors had spoken, and no one would question their word.

--As told by Shaper Vortag

See? Being unable to take the throne is a plot hole. And a massive one at that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 08:12 .

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yeah, the Grey Wardens would probably not appreciate that you exacerpate things....

Right, because the Grey Wardens were certainly pissed off that the Warden got politically involved in the first place.

Oh wait, they weren't.

In fairness, EWR, they were.  Alistair makes that pretty clear in his Warden cameo in DA2.  Sure, there's an argument to be had that various circumstances didn't leave the Wardens much choice in the matter, but it does seem that the Grey Wardens as a whole were not thrilled by the actions of the Ferelden Grey Wardens (all two of them). 

[TEWR]

In fairness, EWR, they were. Alistair makes that pretty clear in his Warden cameo in DA2. Sure, there's an argument to be had that various circumstances didn't leave the Wardens much choice in the matter, but it does seem that the Grey Wardens as a whole were not thrilled by the actions of the Ferelden Grey Wardens (all two of them).

Meh, either way it doesn't really give any reason why the Dwarf Noble can't become King. And Riordan didn't seem to mind how politically involved Alistair and the Warden were, nor was there any kind of comment about the First Warden in Weisshaupt being angry at it. Rather, the First Warden seemed kinda giddy at how Wardens could be politically involved elsewhere.

Granted those are only two Wardens out of hundreds -- if not thousands -- but there wasn't really an impression made of "Wardens disapprove -9001."

And I mean if the head honcho of all of the Wardens was okay with it, I would think the rest would be too.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 09:09 .

[Lazy Jer]

My honest opinion, and I could be wrong/jaded, is that they either (a) didn't think of it ( didn't want to spend days on end coding in the third option or © both a and b.

[TEWR]

I would gladly pay money for it to be added as DLC, with a whole slew of Orzammar/Deep Roads related quest lines as a result.

[dragonflight288]

Oh? I suppose, since the ****s made such great medical achievements, it was perfectly fine whatever they did in those camps? I mean, the Jews were going to die in those camps anyway, might aswell scrap whatever fragment of humanity you have left, and commit despicable acts of torture on the poor souls, right?

You deliberately misunderstood my meaning. I don't condone what the n-a-z-i's did. Far from it. I strongly oppose it. But their brutal experiments led to a great deal of medical knowledge we would otherwise lack. I was asking you if we should completely abandon all medical knowledge today that helps saves lives because a lot of it came from evil buzzards and their brutality?

That is no different from the topic of Avernus and refining the Joining and tapping into the taint to battle demons. Horrid experiments I can't condone, but the results have far more potential in saving lives than should be ignored.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh? I suppose, since the ****s made such great medical achievements, it was perfectly fine whatever they did in those camps? I mean, the Jews were going to die in those camps anyway, might aswell scrap whatever fragment of humanity you have left, and commit despicable acts of torture on the poor souls, right?

You deliberately misunderstood my meaning. I don't condone what the n-a-z-i's did. Far from it. I strongly oppose it. But their brutal experiments led to a great deal of medical knowledge we would otherwise lack. I was asking you if we should completely abandon all medical knowledge today that helps saves lives because a lot of it came from evil buzzards and their brutality?

That is no different from the topic of Avernus and refining the Joining and tapping into the taint to battle demons. Horrid experiments I can't condone, but the results have far more potential in saving lives than should be ignored.

Um, of all the real world comparisons you could make, that is about the most tasteless and insensitive one I could imagine.  Would you mind PM'ing me a link or two of actual evidence to back up the claim that these "experiments"--and that is an absurd euphemism, given the precise subject matter at hand--led to any actual medical benefits?  I'd rather not go further into the discussion here because this is exactly the sort of controversial off-topic thread that will have mods swooping down on us, but I'd love a PM with something to actually substantiate such a wild claim.

[dragonflight288]

Very well. I don't like the idea of being banned for intellectual discussion. No problem.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh? I suppose, since the ****s made such great medical achievements, it was perfectly fine whatever they did in those camps? I mean, the Jews were going to die in those camps anyway, might aswell scrap whatever fragment of humanity you have left, and commit despicable acts of torture on the poor souls, right?

You deliberately misunderstood my meaning. I don't condone what the n-a-z-i's did. Far from it. I strongly oppose it. But their brutal experiments led to a great deal of medical knowledge we would otherwise lack. I was asking you if we should completely abandon all medical knowledge today that helps saves lives because a lot of it came from evil buzzards and their brutality?

That is no different from the topic of Avernus and refining the Joining and tapping into the taint to battle demons. Horrid experiments I can't condone, but the results have far more potential in saving lives than should be ignored.

So you don't condone the actions that laed to the results, but you are happy those actions were taken? That seems like having your cake, and eating it to. to me.....

[CrimsonZephyr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Oh? I suppose, since the ****s made such great medical achievements, it was perfectly fine whatever they did in those camps? I mean, the Jews were going to die in those camps anyway, might aswell scrap whatever fragment of humanity you have left, and commit despicable acts of torture on the poor souls, right?

You deliberately misunderstood my meaning. I don't condone what the n-a-z-i's did. Far from it. I strongly oppose it. But their brutal experiments led to a great deal of medical knowledge we would otherwise lack. I was asking you if we should completely abandon all medical knowledge today that helps saves lives because a lot of it came from evil buzzards and their brutality?

That is no different from the topic of Avernus and refining the Joining and tapping into the taint to battle demons. Horrid experiments I can't condone, but the results have far more potential in saving lives than should be ignored.

Regarding knowledge. If it comes from illicit sources, attempting to replicate the experiment properly - if only to maintain ethical standards - should be the first priority. If not, better to have the knowledge and not need it.

But to continue using blatantly unethical practices in the pursuit of knowledge, that's an iffier one. Yeah, we gained some (not a lot - quite a bit of N.azi medical science was absolute junk) knowledge from unethically conducted experiments, but we shouldn't repeat them in that fashion. We don't use the same experimentation techniques in the modern day, after all.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 mars 2012 - 03:28 .