886 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

Out to Lunch wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Marethari was a fool. The demon was sealed within a statue. All she needed to do was make it inaccessible, like causing a massive cave-in or magically sealing off the entrance or just posting some guards outside it to prevent Merrill from going in at all. Even restraining Merrill with force if needed. Instead she goes and does the dumbest thing ever and allowing herself to be possessed by a powerful demon that might very well have managed to kill Merrill and Hawke and the unsuspecting clan at the bottom of the mountain because she never said a thing about her plans to them.

Merrill only risked possession - Marethari guaranteed it.

The writers did it that way to show how complicated the issue of magic can be. Mages are just like everyone else, prone to poor judgement based on emotions. There were alot of things that could have been done differently in Merrill's story arc but between Hawke not caring, the keeper being blinded by love and Merrill being prideful and stubborn we ended up with a worse case scenerio.
The whole game was like that.

There's a solution for that: Murder Knife.

[Medhia Nox]

@Dragonflight288: I agree with you to a point - however, I think that from the very first act of blood magic you begin engaging in degenerative acts. That act - cutting yourself.

From there - you begin further self-mutilation and then move on to the mutilation of others for the "good stuff".

It is a completely degenerative act - which is not like everything else that provides power - real or fictitious.

[Jamie9]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic, it is EVIL. Why? My personal opinion is that it should be avoided because it thins the Veil. Demons are much more evil, dangerous and scheming than any Blood Mage. The Veil should not be thinned.

Blood magic isn't the only thing that thins the veil. Excessive violence and death does that too. The Brecilian Forest ended up the way it is, with possess sylvans and werewolves (before Witherfang, I'm talking about when werewolves were far more numerous in the land and the humans waged a war to destroy them) was because of huge battles in the area and a large amount of death and destruction.

And excessive violence and massive rapid deaths is bad too

I've seeing a pattern here - 'bad' things thin the Veil. Does this mean that the Veil itself is bad?

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We can't safely say that an Arcane Warrior would be considered a maleficar. The arts had been lost for centuries, and it is doubtful that the Circles even had knowledge of them. Once the art is properly studied and catalogued it can be decided wether it should be declared illegal or not. Though I can't see why the Circles would brand it as a maleficarum art.

There are good reasons for shapeshifters and blood mages to be branded as maleficars though.

I wonder why you consider shapeshifting a maleficarum art? My assumption is that Arcane warriors will be considered a malificarum art because makes it much more difficult for the templars to control mages. Templars are equiped to deal with the magic of the mages but what happens when a mage can out melee them because they have magic enhanced strenght and speed? templars are not able to deal with that so it will quickly be branded as a maleficarum pratice

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If anything prevented Merrill from completing the mirror, she would probably kill it. She was that obsessed.

And if Marethari got possessed, Merrill would have been aswell for sure. Merrill didn't know her own death was guarenteed, the only redeeming quality she hold is that at least she anticipated it, by bringing Hawke.

I have no idea how that would have ended to be honest. Marethari however took the choice away from merril. Marethari made the mistake however not Merril.

[DPSSOC]

Jamie9 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Blood magic, it is EVIL. Why? My personal opinion is that it should be avoided because it thins the Veil. Demons are much more evil, dangerous and scheming than any Blood Mage. The Veil should not be thinned.

Blood magic isn't the only thing that thins the veil. Excessive violence and death does that too. The Brecilian Forest ended up the way it is, with possess sylvans and werewolves (before Witherfang, I'm talking about when werewolves were far more numerous in the land and the humans waged a war to destroy them) was because of huge battles in the area and a large amount of death and destruction.

And excessive violence and massive rapid deaths is bad too

I've seeing a pattern here - 'bad' things thin the Veil. Does this mean that the Veil itself is bad?

I would think the Veil itself is good and bad things erode it.  Like water running on stone

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well.. I recall the statue in Witch Hunt scream out "The prison has been breached! I feel his shadow approaching!" (Or something to that effect), in reference to some tears in the viel which had appeared in the Circle Tower's basement. So something bad is definetly captured in the Fade.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

We can't safely say that an Arcane Warrior would be considered a maleficar. The arts had been lost for centuries, and it is doubtful that the Circles even had knowledge of them. Once the art is properly studied and catalogued it can be decided wether it should be declared illegal or not. Though I can't see why the Circles would brand it as a maleficarum art.

There are good reasons for shapeshifters and blood mages to be branded as maleficars though.

I wonder why you consider shapeshifting a maleficarum art? My assumption is that Arcane warriors will be considered a malificarum art because makes it much more difficult for the templars to control mages. Templars are equiped to deal with the magic of the mages but what happens when a mage can out melee them because they have magic enhanced strenght and speed? templars are not able to deal with that so it will quickly be branded as a maleficarum pratice

Arcane Warrior arts are just normal magic (if such a thing exist). It can be dispelled by the Tempalrs ability and thus are controllable by them. Shapeshifters can also be dispelled, but it is darn hard to capture a mage who just turns into a bird and flies away, or a mouse which runs through the cracks in the wall.

[naledgeborn]

It's a weapon. Just like any weapon it's as dangerous as the wielder and his or her intentions..

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If anything prevented Merrill from completing the mirror, she would probably kill it. She was that obsessed.

And if Marethari got possessed, Merrill would have been aswell for sure. Merrill didn't know her own death was guarenteed, the only redeeming quality she hold is that at least she anticipated it, by bringing Hawke.

Merrill's death wasn't guarenteed; even Marethari didn't seem to think Merrill was in any danger from conversing with Audacity, but from the reconstructed Eluvian.

[Sepewrath]

DPSSOC wrote...
No it doesn't, but like I said no matter how good your reason for doing it it's still an immoral action.  Take killing in self-defense; it's necessary and understandable but it is never a good thing.

Also it's a remarkably slippery slope.  Do you mind control addicts?  The insane?  Anyone who's just not smart enough to know what's good for them?  How many people do you rob of their free will because it's better for them or society in general?

Well it all depends on personal perspective, think about that family Sten killed, you can finger wag from the outside about someone using blood magic to stop him, but if it was your family or you were one of those people, you wouldn't be saying "No don't use blood magic to stop him, let him kill us." Its definitely a power where it be a struggle to maintain integrity and not something I would recommend be option A, but it has its uses.

You cant disregard things just because it can be used for evil, like I've said in plenty of these threads discussing the ethics of magic. A swords only purpose is to kill, to steal life away from people, is it an immoral action to make a sword when you know that is what its going to be used for? That sword can be used to kill the next Hitler or protect the weak or it could be used to kill children, but that doesn't stop them from being made and put into use. Its all slippery slope that can only managed by someone who wont abuse the tool.

[Dave of Canada]

Purge it with fire. No matter how good it's intentions are, it's negative applications outweigh any good.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Rather nuke it from orbit... It's the only way to be sure...

[Shadow Fox]

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's a consciously corrupting tool.

It will corrupt you eventually - no matter how much "good" you do with it in the present.

My belief aswell.

[Aradace]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's a consciously corrupting tool.

It will corrupt you eventually - no matter how much "good" you do with it in the present.

My belief aswell.

And you probably have the same belief on magic as a whole as the chantry does too I wager?  And take "magic is to serve man and not rule him" literally instead of it's actual intended meaning?

[tanarri23]

It's a tool like any other, neither good nor evil on its own. It's all about how you use it, and a hostile elemental mage is just as bad for you as a hostile blood mage...but possibilities of mind control and the way blood magic is powered probably provide a more than average temptation to do something bad ("I'll just take a little bit more, he'll barely feel- oh crap, I killed him."). 

Modifié par tanarri23, 08 août 2011 - 10:00 .

[EnforcerGREG]

As has been said it's a tool a very usefull tool in certian plot specific moments such as searching for Leeandra, Disspeling barriers, Creating god children and Philactries. But No matter how we use it those who do are scorned as Malificarum. The only part of blood magic I dislike is the using of anothers own blood and not the users.

[TEWR]

I'm willing to believe the only reason blood magic leads to an increased chance of becoming an Abomination is due to the mage getting complacent. We've seen absolutely nothing to indicate that being a blood mage leads to possession if you're not trying to summon demons.

If you are summoning demons, that's a whole different story. Then there's a good chance you'll get possessed.

[Wereparrot]

Since blood magic can only be effected by the effusion of blood, I would say that all blood magic is evil.

[Recycled Human]

Remember when Merrill cuts herself to open the way and Bethany or magehawke mentions the veil shifting? That's a side effect of blood magic, as has been said. It would be epic if this game recorded the number of times you cast spells under blood magic and then forced a demon through the shifted veil to come after you, like a super hard fully embodied demon.

The danger isn't just possession or the ability to manipulate the blood of others or the fact that the powers themselves take life force from you to supplement the powerful effects, it's in the danger of bringing demons through the fade whether intentional or accidental. Couple that with the near requirement throughout Thedas of learning blood magic from a demon thanks to the exalted march taking out both the original teachers (the elves, or if you'd rather dumat) and the maleficar that used it and you are left with a sinister power that can easily twist a mage.

The chant of light mentions the maker describing blood magic as the profaning of his gift, the words 'never to rule over him' sound eerily prevalent when compared to blood magic's ability to completely dominate another person or persons.

Morally, blood magic is reprehensible.

[esper]

I think that you would have to cast blood magic really many times in the same place for a demon to accidentily walk through.

[Rifneno]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well.. I recall the statue in Witch Hunt scream out "The prison has been breached! I feel his shadow approaching!" (Or something to that effect), in reference to some tears in the viel which had appeared in the Circle Tower's basement. So something bad is definetly captured in the Fade.

99.999999% chance it was talking about Hawke tarding up Corypheus' magical prison.

[LobselVith8]

There was a shift in the veil because Merrill summoned a spirit to destroy the barrier, Recycled Human.

[Recycled Human]

Fair enough, it's possible I misunderstood what was being said. XD

I guess because you don't actually see a spirit pop up and remove the barrier or something. At any rate, what do you think about having to speak with a demon just to learn the forbidden school?

[LobselVith8]

The Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to instruct him on how to use blood magic, and Anders even asks Merrill if she learned it by accident, so I don't think a mage has to deal with a demon in order to learn it. It's even inferred that Jowan learned it from books, which is why the books on blood magic were removed from the library.