886 réponses à ce sujet

[Recycled Human]

Sure, there's a few outliers but according to the wiki it's nearly a requirement for mages to learn from a demon. Doesn't it bother you that MOST blood mages learned from demons? Even if they pass the information along to others themselves, the teaching for that group would still have ties to demons.

On a side note : I didn't know jowan learned from a book, I thought he stumbled upon some of Uldred's stuff maybe. And Merrill didn't learn from the demon who helped her with the eluvian? And isn't the Barroness mostly abomination at that point?

[Aradace]

Recycled Human wrote...

Sure, there's a few outliers but according to the wiki it's nearly a requirement for mages to learn from a demon. Doesn't it bother you that MOST blood mages learned from demons? Even if they pass the information along to others themselves, the teaching for that group would still have ties to demons.

On a side note : I didn't know jowan learned from a book, I thought he stumbled upon some of Uldred's stuff maybe. And Merrill didn't learn from the demon who helped her with the eluvian? And isn't the Barroness mostly abomination at that point?

dont forget Hawke...He/she didnt learn from a demon either.

[TobiTobsen]

Of course it's dangerous but I can think of some good uses for that kind of magic.

Just think of the potential uses in medicine. A battlefield healer that literally can tell your blood to stop pouring out of your wounds? Sounds quite awesome to me.

[Illydoor]

I see blood magic as nuclear warfare/power in modern day times. People fear it, they don't like to look at it, but you can't deny it's effectiveness or potential.

[naledgeborn]

Another good point brought up. Using up one's mana pool is supposed to be exhausting in lore as well as gameplay. What about "blood healers". Healers who use their own blood to heal companions and reserve their mana pool for sustaining spells like healing aura. Another case of the gun is not "evil", the shooter is.

[Annarl]

naledgeborn wrote...

It's a weapon. Just like any weapon it's as dangerous as the wielder and his or her intentions..

I agree.  Blood magic can be a powerful weapon and in the hands of a skilled user can have positive results but it can be easily used for evil intentions but what weapon can't be in the hands of any user. The ability of the mage to resist the demon becomes the important question (if that's how the mage learned the skill).

[LobselVith8]

Recycled Human, it bothers me more that mages are confined to an environment where physical abuse is legal simply if mages speak to a civilian or against the proprietor if she has items stolen from her store. If a mage wants to escape abuse or rape and leaves the Circle Tower, then it's either blood magic or hoping they never run across a templar who can nullify their magical abilities otherwise.

As for the Baroness, like I said, the Orlesian Warden believes she is simply another mage at that point; when she asks her to teach him, Justice hasn't revealed that she's become a demon (which happens afterward, when the Orlesian Warden and Justice are in the real world). That informs me that he was expecting another mage to teach him how to use blood magic.

As for Merrill, according to Gaider, she was building the Eluvian based on lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard she took in Ferelden. She only learns blood magic because she lacks the necessary lyrium to cleanse the shard, which is why she isn't a ghoul while the elves in the Elven Ruins are (who were clearly corrupted by the remaining shards in the DLC Witch Hunt).

[jamesp81]

DPSSOC wrote...

For me Blood Magic really needs to be considered as two distinct aspects.

Blood Magic Exclusive Spells - Miles upon miles of bad road. Now our scope is limited but I can't recall a single spell that requires Blood Magic that isn't morally questionable at best. Summoning demons (bad road), controlling minds (bad road), causing people's blood to boil killing them from the inside (really bad road). I haven't seen a single blood magic spell that's benign, so I kind of have to give this one a no pass.

I agree on demons, somewhat agree on mind control, and disagree on the blood boiling.

Yes, boiling some poor sod's blood to kill him is brutal.  Would it make anyone feel any better if I ran a sword through his chest instead?  The method used to end a life is not as important as why it's being done.  Boiling a badguy's blood in self defense?  I don't see a problem there.  Same as I wouldn't see a problem stabbing them with a sword, shooting him with a rifle, or blowing him up with an explosive, if all were situations of self defense.

The mind control thing is a little bit gray.  Again, I could justify it on the grounds of self defense if under attack.  The method of self defense is just not that important as long as self defense is justified.  It is a bit disconcerting of a talent though, I'll give you that.

Now, summoning demons?  Yeah, that's definitely bad.  It never ends well.  A weapon used in justifiable self defense has to harm the attacker, and not innocents.  Demons can't be controlled so precisely like one of those other two spells could.

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well fireballs aren't exactly benign either, they are meant to melt flesh from bone, so hows that any better? You could probably summon demons using Lyrium too, your talking about specifically malevolent actions, the same way you could use mana to make a fireball for industrial reasons, you could use blood magic to make a fireball to do the same. Controlling minds even could be a positive under the right circumstance, look Charles Xavier as an example.

Going back to my self defense example from above, this might even be a better self defense mechanism in certain situations, especially if, for some reason, you didn't want to kill your attacker.  Simply mind control him into thinking that going home would be a good idea, then walk away.

Not that I have qualms about using deadly force to protect myself, but this method would have its uses.  Subtelty being one of them.

[jamesp81]

Robhuzz wrote...

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

Any mage who uses ANY kind of magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.  It's called The Harrowing.

[esper]

jamesp81 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

Any mage who uses ANY kind of magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.  It's called The Harrowing.

Any CIRCLE mage.

[jamesp81]

esper wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

Any mage who uses ANY kind of magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.  It's called The Harrowing.

Any CIRCLE mage.

Of which, almost all mages are.  Of those outside the Circle, a goodly portion are blood mages who are also likely to meet a demon.

Mages who have not met a demon are apparently miniscule as a percentage of the mage population.  The point is, judging a magical school by whether or not a mage is likely to meet a demon is non-sensical; all magical schools attract demonic attention.  All mages (or almost all) will eventually meet one.  Blood mage or no.

[esper]

jamesp81 wrote...

esper wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

Any mage who uses ANY kind of magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.  It's called The Harrowing.

Any CIRCLE mage.

Of which, almost all mages are.  Of those outside the Circle, a goodly portion are blood mages who are also likely to meet a demon.

Mages who have not met a demon are apparently miniscule as a percentage of the mage population.  The point is, judging a magical school by whether or not a mage is likely to meet a demon is non-sensical; all magical schools attract demonic attention.  All mages (or almost all) will eventually meet one.  Blood mage or no.

I know, I know. I was just nitpicking on your words.

[TEWR]

esper wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Jlb524 wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, as long as you don't use other people's life to fuel it or use it to try and dominate other people. What Merrill does (trying to restore Dalish history) is blood magic but not evil. However like we saw in DA2, Demons NEVER help a person for free, and always seek to use the mage whom they teach blood magic to. So even though a mage can use blood magic with good intentions, their dealings with demons will eventually come back to bite them in the rear, which will most likely turn them into abominations, which in turn will kill a lot of innocents before it's killed by a group of templars.

Overall conclusion: Do not use blood magic. EVER. Nothing good can ever come of it, no matter what you try to use it for.

You're assuming that:

1)  Blood magic has to be taught by a demon.
2)  A blood mage who does learn it from a demon has to keep dealing with said demon.   Using Merrill as an example, she had no further dealings with Audacity for seven years after learning blood magic from it.  She did plan on speaking to it again, but this had nothing to do with her learning of blood magic from it (she didn't have to go back because it taught her something).  The demon was around when eluvians existed in Arlathan and she needed information.
3)  Non-blood mages make deals with demons as well...even non-mages (like Hawke).  The two aren't absolutely linked.

1. I agree my point may have been a little hasty, but all blood magic comes from demons. I think any mage who uses blood magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.

Any mage who uses ANY kind of magic eventually comes into contact with a demon.  It's called The Harrowing.

Any CIRCLE mage.

Actually no, every mage comes into contact with a demon eventually. Apostate, Dalish mage, Chasind, Rivaini, Circle, etc. It doesn't matter. They come into contact with demons at some point. Whether they're bothered by them constantly is unknown. It's what we've been told, but somehow I doubt a demon is going to stalk a mage 24/7 going "You want a piece of candy?"

The Harrowing is, however, a Circle mage only thing. But the Dalish have their own type of Harrowing, where the mage mustn't believe anything in the Fade.

[Recycled Human]

Their physical trauma is terrible lobselvith, so what if you were given the choice? Do you free all mages saving them from ever being told what to do ever again, or do you confine them so everyone else feels safer? Throw some figures around, what would you say 1/10 people are born with magical talent (little too high a number?) and of those how many can be possessed by demons? And of the ones who become abominations how many people do they kill? How many did the tevinter Imperium kill for instance?

Now take the number of bad Templars out there. How many civil rights do they infringe on? How many people are hurt without repricussion against the offending party?

My point is, no it's not a perfect system (the Qun is perfect but not the chantry) but it is better than the alternative.

Note : so Merrill learned from demons (caveat to purify a shard) and the orleasian warden learned from a demon disguised as a mage and Hawke learned blood magic from his dad (legacy?) but we don't know where his dad learned it from (possibly a demon or someone who learned from a demon). And that doesnt bother you? Demons aren't known for being strait shooters or for playin fair...

[esper]

I actually don't think that a harrowing type of trial is a bad idea since demons are a real threat to the mages and they need to know what they deal with. Techanically it should be possible if you were born human/city elf apostate to go without a harrowing like ritual (where do you get the lyrium to do that anyway), but truth to be told I think that if a mage never has been educated in how to avoid demons some demon is going to pick right up on that and target the mage.

[esper]

Recycled Human wrote...

Their physical trauma is terrible lobselvith, so what if you were given the choice? Do you free all mages saving them from ever being told what to do ever again, or do you confine them so everyone else feels safer? Throw some figures around, what would you say 1/10 people are born with magical talent (little too high a number?) and of those how many can be possessed by demons? And of the ones who become abominations how many people do they kill? How many did the tevinter Imperium kill for instance?

Now take the number of bad Templars out there. How many civil rights do they infringe on? How many people are hurt without repricussion against the offending party?

My point is, no it's not a perfect system (the Qun is perfect but not the chantry) but it is better than the alternative.

Note : so Merrill learned from demons (caveat to purify a shard) and the orleasian warden learned from a demon disguised as a mage and Hawke learned blood magic from his dad (legacy?) but we don't know where his dad learned it from (possibly a demon or someone who learned from a demon). And that doesnt bother you? Demons aren't known for being strait shooters or for playin fair...

The basic human rights or a minority can not be overlooked just so the majority feels safe.
Merrill learned from a TRAPPED demon that had no way to free itself on it's own. If Hawke learns from dad what problem is it where dad learns it from? I am pretty sure that Malcom is not going to try and posses Hawke.

[Rifneno]

Recycled Human wrote...

(the Qun is perfect but not the chantry)

ALL > Qunari.  Chantry, Tevinter, I'd even take the darkspawn over the qunari.

[Wereparrot]

naledgeborn wrote...

Another good point brought up. Using up one's mana pool is supposed to be exhausting in lore as well as gameplay. What about "blood healers". Healers who use their own blood to heal companions and reserve their mana pool for sustaining spells like healing aura. Another case of the gun is not "evil", the shooter is.

So if it goes wrong the healer could potentially kill themselves or another willing subject just to sew up a relative scratch on someone else? 

[Rifneno]

Wereparrot wrote...

So if it goes wrong the healer could potentially kill themselves or another willing subject just to sew up a relative scratch on someone else? 

Avernus held off a small army of demons while also battling off old age and the darkspawn taint for hundreds of years.  I seriously doubt blood magic has the risks the Chantry claims.  The dangers to it are mostly because of the Chantry's restrictions.

[Vit246]

jamesp81 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

For me Blood Magic really needs to be considered as two distinct aspects.

Blood Magic Exclusive Spells - Miles upon miles of bad road. Now our scope is limited but I can't recall a single spell that requires Blood Magic that isn't morally questionable at best. Summoning demons (bad road), controlling minds (bad road), causing people's blood to boil killing them from the inside (really bad road). I haven't seen a single blood magic spell that's benign, so I kind of have to give this one a no pass.

I agree on demons, somewhat agree on mind control, and disagree on the blood boiling.

Yes, boiling some poor sod's blood to kill him is brutal.  Would it make anyone feel any better if I ran a sword through his chest instead?  The method used to end a life is not as important as why it's being done.  Boiling a badguy's blood in self defense?  I don't see a problem there.  Same as I wouldn't see a problem stabbing them with a sword, shooting him with a rifle, or blowing him up with an explosive, if all were situations of self defense.

The mind control thing is a little bit gray.  Again, I could justify it on the grounds of self defense if under attack.  The method of self defense is just not that important as long as self defense is justified.  It is a bit disconcerting of a talent though, I'll give you that.

Now, summoning demons?  Yeah, that's definitely bad.  It never ends well.  A weapon used in justifiable self defense has to harm the attacker, and not innocents.  Demons can't be controlled so precisely like one of those other two spells could.

About the "summoning demons" part, I think evidence suggests that demons can be controlled precisely. The Tevinter Imperium has been around for 2000 years and their mages still practice demon summoning, so that suggests to me that they know what they're doing and how to not have it backfire on them. And why would summoning demons *have* to harm innocents?

[esper]

Isn't controlling demons completely a form of slavery? My blood mage Hawke stays away from demon summoning because - succesfull it is slavery and unsuccefull and the mage is screwed. The rest of the blood mage ability I don't have a problen with.

[Recycled Human]

I don't expect anyone to overlook basic rights, I'm asking that you protect the basic rights of everyday common folk too. Where is their champion? Where is the person who sticks up for the farmers right to reasonable happiness and safety? Demons don't seem too willing to share and their conduits being kept under a watchful eye with a reasonable amount of freedom seems perfectly acceptable as an alternative for the sensitive souls out there. The fact that one or two Templars might abuse their power isn't suprising but is in no way indicative of the majority of Templars. Mages however have proven again and again that they choose blood magic/abomination over submitting to the greater good. Who is sacrificing basic rights if not the selfish mage who consorts with demons. These are demons mind you not kittens.

Blood magic in dragon age requires for most a demonic commune and demons are at war with the world. They use any means necessary to wrangle a foothold in the real world and they are very good at it.

Blood magic is evil.

@rifneno : so long as it doesn't derail the thread, what's wrong with the qunari? If you feel it would derail the thread I would welcome a conversation in private.

[TEWR]

About the "summoning demons" part, I think evidence suggests that demons can be controlled precisely. The Tevinter Imperium has been around for 2000 years and their mages still practice demon summoning, so that suggests to me that they know what they're doing and how to not have it backfire on them. And why would summoning demons *have* to harm innocents?

Remember that this is the current Tevinter Imperium that can control Rage Demons and Hunger demons (I'm assuming maybe Sloth Demons too). Imagine what the Imperium of old could've done. What if they could control Pride and Desire demons?

Frightening thought...