886 réponses à ce sujet

[esper]

Mages can also protect the commong people - and more importantly they can heal them. Some mages a good, some are bad, but most are inbetween - like any other group of person and don't prey on farmers and everyday people. And locking up people for an ability they were born with IS sacrificng their basic human rights.

[The Baconer]

Recycled Human wrote...
Mages however have proven again and again that they choose blood magic/abomination over submitting to the greater good.

Because their only other choices are imprisonment or execution. Herp-a-derp.

Modifié par The Baconer, 08 août 2011 - 07:10 .

[Vit246]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

About the "summoning demons" part, I think evidence suggests that demons can be controlled precisely. The Tevinter Imperium has been around for 2000 years and their mages still practice demon summoning, so that suggests to me that they know what they're doing and how to not have it backfire on them. And why would summoning demons *have* to harm innocents?

Remember that this is the current Tevinter Imperium that can control Rage Demons and Hunger demons (I'm assuming maybe Sloth Demons too). Imagine what the Imperium of old could've done. What if they could control Pride and Desire demons?

Frightening thought...

EDIT:
Now see, if they could've directly controlled demons *that* powerful back then, then I would question why the Imperium still doesn't rule all of Thedas or beaten back the Qunari.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 août 2011 - 07:20 .

[esper]

Vit246 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

About the "summoning demons" part, I think evidence suggests that demons can be controlled precisely. The Tevinter Imperium has been around for 2000 years and their mages still practice demon summoning, so that suggests to me that they know what they're doing and how to not have it backfire on them. And why would summoning demons *have* to harm innocents?

Remember that this is the current Tevinter Imperium that can control Rage Demons and Hunger demons (I'm assuming maybe Sloth Demons too). Imagine what the Imperium of old could've done. What if they could control Pride and Desire demons?

Frightening thought...

Now see, if they could've controlled those demons back then, then I would question why the Imperium still doesn't rule all of Thedas or beaten back the Qunari.

Wasn't there a famine in the same time as Andraste (and before her was a blight). Also who says that someone on Andraste's team couldn't control those being too?

[Recycled Human]

So just so we're clear queen of stuff estimated millions of fereldans and 1000 mages right? You're totally cool with letting mages go free, even though they can become abominations and even though those abominations generally can take down whole companies of Templars?

The alternative of locking up .1 percent of the population is so terribly inhumane that you would risk letting just one become an abomination? It's not just for the other 99.9 percent of the populations safety but for the safety of the mages who could easily be made targets by the ignorant masses just for having magic.

You're all good with that?

[The Baconer]

Recycled Human wrote...
You're all good with that?

Well, I guess it's not Tevinter. But it's a start!

[esper]

Recycled Human wrote...

So just so we're clear queen of stuff estimated millions of fereldans and 1000 mages right? You're totally cool with letting mages go free, even though they can become abominations and even though those abominations generally can take down whole companies of Templars?

The alternative of locking up .1 percent of the population is so terribly inhumane that you would risk letting just one become an abomination? It's not just for the other 99.9 percent of the populations safety but for the safety of the mages who could easily be made targets by the ignorant masses just for having magic.

You're all good with that?

Yeah I am all good with that because as I said you cannot sacrifice a minority to make the majority feel safe.

[Recycled Human]

Your an idealist, I can respect that. It just strikes me as a bit altruistic or naive but I have no intention of arguing the fact. Some people are cool with allowing people access to nuclear weapons and some people aren't I guess.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Instead you should sacrifice the safety of the majority, for the illusion of freedom to a minority.

[esper]

Recycled Human wrote...

Your an idealist, I can respect that. It just strikes me as a bit altruistic or naive but I have no intention of arguing the fact. Some people are cool with allowing people access to nuclear weapons and some people aren't I guess.

Mages are NOT nuclear weapons they are born that way and they are humans and elfs, and yes i am an idealist. I am not naive. No doubt there are mages who free will cause a lot of death, but most mages are ordinary people who when given the choice will live ordinary lives.

[esper]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Instead you should sacrifice the safety of the majority, for the illusion of freedom to a minority.

Yes I would, because if I don't nothing is going to get better. And sorry but the 'safety' is as much and illusion as the 'freedom'. 

[Vit246]

Recycled Human wrote...

So just so we're clear queen of stuff estimated millions of fereldans and 1000 mages right? You're totally cool with letting mages go free, even though they can become abominations and even though those abominations generally can take down whole companies of Templars?

The alternative of locking up .1 percent of the population is so terribly inhumane that you would risk letting just one become an abomination? It's not just for the other 99.9 percent of the populations safety but for the safety of the mages who could easily be made targets by the ignorant masses just for having magic.

You're all good with that?

Nobody is suggesting that all mages should totally be free. That is nothing but a common strawman argument, And the great majority of abominations made are because of the Chantry and Templar way of dealing with mages. They cause the problems they're suppose to prevent, so their way does not work at all. The dangerousness of abominations are so exaagerated. IF an abomination happens, it is dealt with, just like the Dalish do. Imprisoning a specific group of peope for something that might happen creates more problems. The ignorant masses who target mages are the same masses who have been indoctrinated by the Chantry to hate mages for 1000 years.

Modifié par Vit246, 08 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[esper]

who of us? I mean that safety is an illusion in Thedas in general, because quite frankly law is nothing really something many abide (lot of violent outlaws) in Thedas and those who does abide is prone to missuse their power and be corrupt.

[The Baconer]

Recycled Human wrote...

Your an idealist, I can respect that. It just strikes me as a bit altruistic or naive but I have no intention of arguing the fact.

I always considered the idealists to be the ones who believed mages should sacrifice their own freedoms at the convenience of mundanes.

Modifié par The Baconer, 08 août 2011 - 07:41 .

[esper]

The Baconer wrote...

Recycled Human wrote...

Your an idealist, I can respect that. It just strikes me as a bit altruistic or naive but I have no intention of arguing the fact.

I always considered the idealists to be the ones who believed mages should sacrifice their own freedoms at the convenience of mundanes.

Idealism is many thing and can exist on both side of the spectrum/coin.  

[Recycled Human]

I don't know what 'strawman argument' means but I do know that Esper does in fact advocate all mages should be totally free. And since that was who I was debating with...

Also, abominations seek to create more abominations how is that not a frightening thought? If one of them gives a trained military force pause what more could several do? Is it so blown out of proportion if the extremist qunari fear them so fervently?

[esper]

Recycled Human wrote...

I don't know what 'strawman argument' means but I do know that Esper does in fact advocate all mages should be totally free. And since that was who I was debating with...

Also, abominations seek to create more abominations how is that not a frightening thought? If one of them gives a trained military force pause what more could several do? Is it so blown out of proportion if the extremist qunari fear them so fervently?

The qunari was defeated/beaten back when the chantry added mages - they are not as familiar with magic as the rest of Thedas and I have zero respect for their philosophi.
I advocate that mages are as free as the normal people. Of course normal laws should aplie to them as in mages should not be allowed to kill, rape, steal or what other kind of gruesome crimes you can come up with, but else... yes freedom.

[The Baconer]

Recycled Human wrote...
Also, abominations seek to create more abominations how is that not a frightening thought? If one of them gives a trained military force pause what more could several do? Is it so blown out of proportion if the extremist qunari fear them so fervently?

Most mages-turned-abominations would be lucky (heh) to be little more than a mad beast. The only demons capable of such ambition would be demons of Pride, and occasionally Desire.

[LobselVith8]

Recycled Human wrote...

Their physical trauma is terrible lobselvith, so what if you were given the choice? Do you free all mages saving them from ever being told what to do ever again, or do you confine them so everyone else feels safer?

Letting a religious institiution that preaches that magic is a curse isn't the answer.

Recycled Human wrote...

Throw some figures around, what would you say 1/10 people are born with magical talent (little too high a number?) and of those how many can be possessed by demons? And of the ones who become abominations how many people do they kill? How many did the tevinter Imperium kill for instance?

We could ask the societies with free mages: the Avvar tribes, the Chasind Wilders, the Dalish clans, or the seers in the Kingdom of Rivain. Even the morally bankrupt society of Haven had mages among non-mages for nearly a millennia.

Recycled Human wrote...

Now take the number of bad Templars out there. How many civil rights do they infringe on? How many people are hurt without repricussion against the offending party?

Well, going by Dragon Age 2, we had a genocide committed against hundreds of men, women, and children committed by an insane Knight-Commander. We had lobotomies, rapes, torture going on in Meredith's administration. We had at least two mages driven insane. Gascard was looking for Quentin amongst the mages in the Starkhaven Circle, based on his note in the mansion, so is Quentin an example of what happens to a mage living in a monstrous enviornment, as Alain said the Starkhaven Circle was terrible (when he addressed that Kirkwall's Circle of Magi was worse).

Recycled Human wrote...

My point is, no it's not a perfect system (the Qun is perfect but not the chantry) but it is better than the alternative.

That must explain why the entire world is on the brink of war, in full thanks to the Chantry controlled Circles.

Recycled Human wrote...

Note : so Merrill learned from demons (caveat to purify a shard) and the orleasian warden learned from a demon disguised as a mage and Hawke learned blood magic from his dad (legacy?)

So Merrill was asked if she learned it by accident and the Orlesian Warden expected another mage to teach him to use blood magic; in other words, it doesn't require a demon to learn blood magic. And there's no evidence that Hawke learned blood magic from Malcolm, since it seems to be a surprise to both of them that Malcolm even knew how to use blood magic. I'd assume that Merrill taught him, if the writers even bothered to consider how Hawke could learn blood magic when they made the specialization avaliable.

Recycled Human wrote...

we don't know where his dad learned it from (possibly a demon or someone who learned from a demon). And that doesnt bother you? Demons aren't known for being strait shooters or for playin fair...

Merrill learned blood magic from Audacity, and her life and her soul were still her own. The Warden can coerce the Desire Demon into teaching him blood magic and leaving Connor alone. The Warden stands as the example of what Merrill is telling Hawke about when she says to be careful around demons.

[Out to Lunch]

The Warden can coerce the Desire Demon into teaching him blood magic and leaving Connor alone. The Warden stands as the example of what Merrill is telling Hawke about when she says to be careful around demons.

Are you forgetting that the desire demon says she will leave Connor alone for the moment but that she will return in a few years to retake possession of him and you agree with that when you make the deal?

[esper]

Out to Lunch wrote...

The Warden can coerce the Desire Demon into teaching him blood magic and leaving Connor alone. The Warden stands as the example of what Merrill is telling Hawke about when she says to be careful around demons.

Are you forgetting that the desire demon says she will leave Connor alone for the moment but that she will return in a few years to retake possession of him and you agree with that when you make the deal?

You can intimidate her to leave him alone forever AND teach your warden blood magic - if she doesn't your warden will kill her. The desire demon seems to believe that.