886 réponses à ce sujet

[Out to Lunch]

Interesting! I didn't realize that.

[LobselVith8]

Out to Lunch wrote...

Interesting! I didn't realize that.

You need Master Coercion (which requires 16 cunning) to pull it off successfully. You can intimidate her into leaving with Expert Coercion, but you won't be able to get the blood magic knowledge without Master Coercion. That's how I handled it with my Surana Warden. Connor gets the Tevinter Epilogue slide, then.

[TEWR]

I have to say I'm skeptical. That's trusting a demon a bit too much. There's still the chance she'll go after Connor (demons do lie and all that). She wasn't even sundered from the Fade and trapped in a demonic Buddha like statue like Audacity was, which is why I had no issue with Merrill working with Audacity. No threat at all.

With the Desire Demon though, there's still that threat.

While I'm on the topic of demons, I wonder this: If benevolent spirits can turn into demons, can demons turn back into benevolent spirits? And yes, I know and agree that all spirits are dangerous.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 08:38 .

[naledgeborn]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The epilogue slide always puzzled me. Why would the Chantry allow one of their mages to leave for Tevinter, of all places?

Because Connor becomes that badass.  Think about it. He basically went through the Harrowing at nine years old. No doubt he failed but by the time he was ready for a second shot I'm guessing he was well beyond his peers in all things magic.

[Wulfram]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The epilogue slide always puzzled me. Why would the Chantry allow one of their mages to leave for Tevinter, of all places?

Well, it means they're rid of a mage, I guess.

And I don't think blood magic was quite as ubiquitous in DA:O Modern Tevinter as in DA2

[esper]

naledgeborn wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The epilogue slide always puzzled me. Why would the Chantry allow one of their mages to leave for Tevinter, of all places?

Because Connor becomes that badass.  Think about it. He basically went through the Harrowing at nine years old. No doubt he failed but by the time he was ready for a second shot I'm guessing he was well beyond his peers in all things magic.

Also havign a noble as your father possible helps. Beside now we knows that epilog slides are not 100% canon

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Out to Lunch wrote...

Interesting! I didn't realize that.

You need Master Coercion (which requires 16 cunning) to pull it off successfully. You can intimidate her into leaving with Expert Coercion, but you won't be able to get the blood magic knowledge without Master Coercion. That's how I handled it with my Surana Warden. Connor gets the Tevinter Epilogue slide, then.

The epilogue slide always puzzled me. Why would the Chantry allow one of their mages to leave for Tevinter, of all places?

Well, it might have something to do with the Magi boon; in Origins, the independent Circle of Orzammar is never formed if The Warden asked for the Magi boon (if you helped Dagna get into the Circle of Ferelden but didn't help Brother Burkel), so it looks like the Magi boon happened until the developers decided to continue the story and deal more with the mages and templars, and then rectonned the decision so that the Chantry said no. I received the Epilogue slide with Connor after my Surana Warden asked for the Magi boon, so it made sense at the time.

[LobselVith8]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Are we talking about Justice as the spirit-turned-demon? Because I don't entirely agree with Merrill's opinion that demons and spirits are essentially the same.

Technically, the distinction is Andrastian, as Anders points out repeatedly to Merrill that the spirits are the Maker's "First Children" and all that, so it's really an issue of the dichotomy between the Andrastian point of view on the Fade and the Dalish perspective of the Beyond. As Anders says, "Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor." Merrill's retort is that, "Your 'Maker' is a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

Modifié par LobselVith8, 08 août 2011 - 09:04 .

[esper]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

The epilogue slide always puzzled me. Why would the Chantry allow one of their mages to leave for Tevinter, of all places?

Because Connor becomes that badass.  Think about it. He basically went through the Harrowing at nine years old. No doubt he failed but by the time he was ready for a second shot I'm guessing he was well beyond his peers in all things magic.

Sure he is, but in the Chantry's eyes, Tevinter is the Number One fulcrum of all things evil in the world - ruled by mages, killed their prophetess, ruined the Maker's clubhouse - and they would willingly send one of their own mages to get a piece of that particular cake when they go on and on and on and on about preventing the rise of yet another Imperium?
It doesn't compute.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


While I'm on the topic of demons, I wonder this: If benevolent spirits can turn into demons, can demons turn back into benevolent spirits? And yes, I know and agree that all spirits are dangerous.

Are we talking about Justice as the spirit-turned-demon? Because I don't entirely agree with Merrill's opinion that demons and spirits are essentially the same. They share many characteristics, but demons first and foremost want to live in the mortal realm, while spirits first care for whatever virtue they've decided to embody. Justice might be a corrupted and at times malevolent spirit, but he is not a demon in the same sense as Desire and Pride. I'm not sure how you could make one benevolent, though, unless you managed to make them more interested in the Fade than in possessing mortals.

This is an interestin topic. Based on how they act I personally thinks that demon are being that are fully selfish whereas spirit seems to be being that embodies an ideal such much that they expect everyone and everything to live by that ideal too, but are extremely dangerous. I don't think of Justice as a demon, both more like a spirit who has its idea of justice narrowed to only mages - thanks to the merging. I don't think that spirit-demons can convert to one an another. I think that they are born different like human and elves. 

Modifié par esper, 08 août 2011 - 09:04 .

[TEWR]

Are we talking about Justice as the spirit-turned-demon? Because I don't entirely agree with Merrill's opinion that demons and spirits are essentially the same. They share many characteristics, but demons first and foremost want to live in the mortal realm, while spirits first care for whatever virtue they've decided to embody. Justice might be a corrupted and at times malevolent spirit, but he is not a demon in the same sense as Desire and Pride. I'm not sure how you could make one benevolent, though, unless you managed to make them more interested in the Fade than in possessing mortals

Well, my comment wasn't aimed at just Justice (hah, that sounds funny). More like, what if Audacity could become Patience?

Also, I believe that Justice is a spirit and a demon (the result of Anders' hatred of Templars) intertwined as one being. He is both, yet he is neither.

As for spirits and demons being the same, I have to disagree with you. They are, in a sense, like humanity. Humans all want different things, but we are all the same (so to speak).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[naledgeborn]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Sure he is, but in the Chantry's eyes, Tevinter is the Number One fulcrum of all things evil in the world - ruled by mages, killed their prophetess, ruined the Maker's clubhouse - and they would willingly send one of their own mages to get a piece of that particular cake when they go on and on and on and on about preventing the rise of yet another Imperium?
It doesn't compute.

Bolded the key word there. Fereldan is not the Chantry. In fact, Fereldan's been a pretty pro-mage nation since Calenhad united it with the circle's help. For all of it's "dog lord barbairty" Fereldan really is an advanced nation when it comes to human rights. Not saying there aren't any bad apples in the barrel.  Other than Tevinter however, Fereldan is one of the best places to be an apostate. Templars usually kill on sight in other places. Fereldan apostates are captured and intergrated into the circle.  

[ApostleinTriumph]

It should only be used by those who can master it, and perhaps in desperate situations. If not, then the mages with weak minds will be possessed by demons, and that doesn't end well for anyone. It is a dangerous but powerful tool, like anything it has its pros and cons.

[naledgeborn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, my comment wasn't aimed at just Justice (hah, that sounds funny). More like, what if Audacity could become Patience?

Also, I believe that Justice is a spirit and a demon (the result of Anders' hatred of Templars) intertwined as one being. He is both, yet he is neither.

As for spirits and demons being the same, I have to disagree with you. They are, in a sense, like humanity. Humans all want different things, but we are all the same (so to speak).

Good point. And I don't think so. I think Ander's anger and impatience corrupted Justice. Not the other way around. That's why Wynne was always on her guard. She didn't want to corrupt Faith into Zeal or Fervor.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 08 août 2011 - 09:24 .

[Rifneno]

Recycled Human wrote...

Your an idealist, I can respect that. It just strikes me as a bit altruistic or naive but I have no intention of arguing the fact. Some people are cool with allowing people access to nuclear weapons and some people aren't I guess.

Oh Jesus, the nuclear weapon crap again. Epic facepalm.

[Rifneno]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

There may be individual differences - like the Sloth demon during the mage origin who would rather just be left alone than possessing you - but there is a distinction to be made between the two groups. Doesn't mean that spirits can't be dangerous. And Anders is exactly the worst kind of host for Justice to have.

I don't know why everyone thinks Anders corrupted Justice so badly... Anders was a happy and carefree guy in DAA. He had some baggage, but everyone does. Justice was already the "we must avenge the fallen at all costs!" type of guy. He'll turn on the PC if the PC sides with the Architect, not because of the inherent flaws in such an alliance but because he thinks it's his duty to avenge the dead.

[Agamo45]

I think all blood mages should be burnt at the stake.

[TEWR]

naledgeborn wrote...

Good point. And I don't think so. I think Ander's anger and impatience corrupted Justice. Not the other way around. That's why Wynne was always on her guard. She didn't want to corrupt Faith into Zeal or Fervor.

Isn't that what I said though? =P

I agree that Anders corrupted Justice (edit: at least more than Justice already corrupted himself, if he even did), but I don't think Justice is a true demon. He is Vengeance and Justice. He is both, yet he is neither. They are two beings intertwined as one (who are in Anders no less! talk about roommate troubles!).

I'm not saying Justice corrupted Anders. I'm saying Anders corrupted Justice. Vengeance and Justice are two sides of the same coin after all, with one side being a darker shade.

Queen-of-Stuff wrote...

At times, he is malevolent, but even at his worst he cannot be put in the same category as a demon. He always have the virtue he has decided to encompass in mind - when he rages, he cares more about punishing the ones that he considers the guilty than anything else, but he doesn't want to possess Anders for the sake of living.

Agreed, which is why I say he's both intertwined as one. If I had to think up a name for him to distinguish him, it would have to be.... well I actually don't know what he could be called. But I don't think of him as a full demon or a full benevolent spirit. Something... in between that has them both fighting each other, if any of what I just said makes sense, because I'm rambling now.

There may be individual differences - like the Sloth demon during the mage origin who would rather just be left alone than possessing you - but there is a distinction to be made between the two groups. Doesn't mean that spirits can't be dangerous. And Anders is exactly the worst kind of host for Justice to have.

But not the distinction the Andrastians have. Their distinction is one of ignorance. For the record, I have to replay DA2 to hear Merrill's line, but I don't think she ever calls them "exactly the same on all levels". She just says they're all dangerous.

And oddly enough, I view Anders as both the best and worst host for Justice to have.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 août 2011 - 09:46 .

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

There may be individual differences - like the Sloth demon during the mage origin who would rather just be left alone than possessing you - but there is a distinction to be made between the two groups. Doesn't mean that spirits can't be dangerous. And Anders is exactly the worst kind of host for Justice to have.

I don't know why everyone thinks Anders corrupted Justice so badly... Anders was a happy and carefree guy in DAA. He had some baggage, but everyone does. Justice was already the "we must avenge the fallen at all costs!" type of guy. He'll turn on the PC if the PC sides with the Architect, not because of the inherent flaws in such an alliance but because he thinks it's his duty to avenge the dead.

Justice has always been a spirit of Vengeance since he has always been an eye for an eye kind of justice which is vengance. What happened with Anders was that instead of being justice of all his perspective narrowed and became justice for only the mages and thus his brutallity showed more clearly.

I don't think that demons are corropted spirits. I think that the spirits thinks that. I am more Merrill like: Spirits and demons are like human and elves. They are both fade denizents both they have two completely different thought-progress. I don't think you can curropt spirit to demons or cleanse demons to spirit.

And no matter what taking a foreign mind into your own mind is a bad idea.  

[MKDAWUSS]

What I would like to see introduced and emphasized are the beneficial aspects of blood magic. Make people (both player and character [and NPC]) see blood magic in a new light. That was something that could have been emphasized more in DA2 IMO.

The only time you see a blood mage doing anything beneficial in DA (so far) is when it's done by the player.