313 réponses à ce sujet

[Yeti1069]

If this has been discussed elsewhere, I'd appreciate a link to that discussion, but I didn't turn anything up with a search.

One of my biggest frustrations with ME2 was the relative uselessness of a lot of powers (particularly on harder difficulties) due to their having almost zero effect on enemies protected by shields/barriers/armor. This is especially true for one of my favorite characters, from a dialogue perspective, yet least favorite from a combat perspective: Mordin (though not strictly an issue limited to the Solarian).

In his case, he has two powers that do zilch to protected targets and one power that really only does anything to foes down to just armor or nothing--he doesn't have anything to use on enemies with shields or barriers.

Now, I understand why biotics, especially, aren't as effective as they were in ME1, where a Singularity could overpower nearly any and every fight, but there must be a middle ground. For one thing, it makes no sense to me that armor should protect against most powers, as that should represent a resistance to physical impacts and not manipulation so much.

I know the game is pretty far along in development, and likely past this point, but what I'd really like to see is either the interaction between defenses and powers take on more of a rock/paper/scissors element than we had in ME2, or for the "HP" of defenses to get lowered with a corresponding increase in health so that there is a greater window to make use of powers after stripping defenses.

Also, even if they're weak, each character should be able to attack at least 2 of the 3 defenses--having someone who is only effective against a single defense really cripples that character.

[dreman9999]

Learn how to use them. Having the power be use able with no contest make the game way too easy. You would snow ball everything. If you don't want protection in the way, play it on normal.

[Yeti1069]

Eh. I like the challenge, but I dislike having a lot of powers and characters go unused due simply to their ineffectiveness against most of the game. There's a middle ground between "too effective" and "not effective".

An example:
Armored targets are treated as being heavier when attacked by powers that cause movement (Lift, Slam, Singularity, etc...); if your power has enough force (in Newtons) to move the thing you're attacking it will work, even if armored, but not as far or fast and with a shorter duration.

Another suggestion:
Using a power against certain defenses will cause the power to go on a longer cooldown as it required more effort to get it to work through defenses.

Or:
Some defense-power interactions could cause damaging feedback. Sure, you may lift Throw that enemy, but their biotic Barrier will cause your power to backlash to some degree.

Ultimately, we're going to have more options for evolving powers, and the sorts of improved interactions I'm hoping for would dovetail with these new options, especially in promoting something like Heavy evolutions vs. Area evolutions, which was a rather weak decision point in ME2 (going Area was almost always the better decision).

[GunMoth]

I think you're referring to Biotic powers only? Because I use powers all the time in my insanity runs - but they're mainly tech / soldier powers.

They already confirmed that there are going to be more complex enemies. (Enemies with SWAT-like shields that will require a biotic pull or singularity to remove the shield from the enemy etc. etc.)

[GunMoth]

My bad if this is a double post.  

I think you're referring to Biotic powers only? Because I use powers all the time in my insanity runs - but they're mainly tech / soldier powers. 
They already confirmed that there are going to be more complex enemies. (Enemies with SWAT-like shields that will require a biotic pull or singularity to remove the shield from the enemy etc. etc.) 

[dreman9999]

Yeti1069 wrote...

Eh. I like the challenge, but I dislike having a lot of powers and characters go unused due simply to their ineffectiveness against most of the game. There's a middle ground between "too effective" and "not effective".

An example:
Armored targets are treated as being heavier when attacked by powers that cause movement (Lift, Slam, Singularity, etc...); if your power has enough force (in Newtons) to move the thing you're attacking it will work, even if armored, but not as far or fast and with a shorter duration.

Another suggestion:
Using a power against certain defenses will cause the power to go on a longer cooldown as it required more effort to get it to work through defenses.

Or:
Some defense-power interactions could cause damaging feedback. Sure, you may lift Throw that enemy, but their biotic Barrier will cause your power to backlash to some degree.

Ultimately, we're going to have more options for evolving powers, and the sorts of improved interactions I'm hoping for would dovetail with these new options, especially in promoting something like Heavy evolutions vs. Area evolutions, which was a rather weak decision point in ME2 (going Area was almost always the better decision).

1. Things like shock obsorber exsist in ME that stop powers effecting targets.
http://masseffect.wi...Shock_Absorbers
This is used with armored and sheiled targets..
Hardening does this as well...
http://masseffect.wi...#Hardened_Weave
Armor in ME just mean that that taget need to be hit with heavier hitting weapon to take down their defence.
2. The direct attack powers already do that in ME2. You stagger them. You can get people out of cover with curved throws and pull. When staggered they are expose to more attack and do not fight back.

[dreman9999]

GunMoth wrote...

I think you're referring to Biotic powers only? Because I use powers all the time in my insanity runs - but they're mainly tech / soldier powers.

They already confirmed that there are going to be more complex enemies. (Enemies with SWAT-like shields that will require a biotic pull or singularity to remove the shield from the enemy etc. etc.)

Basicly, adding more complexity to what they have in ME2. ME2 combat is going to be the template for ME3's combat.

[Jeth Prime]

Not everyone will have something for every situation. Some characters will be more useful at certain points of the game than others....

[GunMoth]

dreman9999 wrote...

GunMoth wrote...

I think you're referring to Biotic powers only? Because I use powers all the time in my insanity runs - but they're mainly tech / soldier powers.

They already confirmed that there are going to be more complex enemies. (Enemies with SWAT-like shields that will require a biotic pull or singularity to remove the shield from the enemy etc. etc.)

Basicly, adding more complexity to what they have in ME2. ME2 combat is going to be the template for ME3's combat.

Indeed. But I believe they are going to have to do more balancing / tweaking if they're going to add enemies with different kinds of armor/shielding.  

Modifié par GunMoth, 05 août 2011 - 07:40 .

[adonfraz]

We don't know yet, but mostly it will stay relatively the same. Powers with short cooldowns (Pull, Throw, Cryo) would be OP with they work fully through protections. IMO singularity could be better (work on more protected opponents, stunlock longer, slighter larger radius) and shockwave should do something against protected enemies.

[RedCaesar97]

Yeti1069 wrote...
If this has been discussed elsewhere, I'd appreciate a link to that discussion, but I didn't turn anything up with a search.

I am surprised you could not find previous discussions on this topic. It comes up quite a bit in both the ME2 and ME3 discussion boards.

One of my biggest frustrations with ME2 was the relative uselessness of a lot of powers (particularly on harder difficulties) due to their having almost zero effect on enemies protected by shields/barriers/armor. This is especially true for one of my favorite characters, from a dialogue perspective, yet least favorite from a combat perspective: Mordin (though not strictly an issue limited to the Solarian).

In his case, he has two powers that do zilch to protected targets and one power that really only does anything to foes down to just armor or nothing--he doesn't have anything to use on enemies with shields or barriers.

I am of the exact opposite opinion. Mordin is almost a permanent fixture on my squad. His evolved Cryo Blast (any evolution) is on 4.5 second cooldown. Even as an Adept, I'm the one that strips ememy protections. Mordin's Cryo Blast followed by a Heavy Throw (or gunfire) makes short work of an enemy.

Now, I understand why biotics, especially, aren't as effective as they were in ME1, where a Singularity could overpower nearly any and every fight, but there must be a middle ground. For one thing, it makes no sense to me that armor should protect against most powers, as that should represent a resistance to physical impacts and not manipulation so much.

This has been brought up a lot as well. And as pointed out by others, ME1 had armor mods that reduced biotic impact. I have never fully understood why some people do not like the protection mechanic. I can see why the do not like it, but do not fully understand it.

I know the game is pretty far along in development, and likely past this point, but what I'd really like to see is either the interaction between defenses and powers take on more of a rock/paper/scissors element than we had in ME2, or for the "HP" of defenses to get lowered with a corresponding increase in health so that there is a greater window to make use of powers after stripping defenses.

Most enemies already have more health than protections. Powers and weapons also gain bonuses to defenses, not to health.

Also, even if they're weak, each character should be able to attack at least 2 of the 3 defenses--having someone who is only effective against a single defense really cripples that character.

I am not sure if I agree with this fully, but I have thought this myself on occasion. The Vanguard, for example, has not native abilities that can strip defenses. Incendiary ammo increases damage versus armor, but will not strip armor like Warp or Incinerate. I could also argue that the Vanguard does not need a defense-stripping power. Only the Sentinel starts has native abilities that can strip defenses (Overload and Warp).

[bucyrus5000]

I somewhat agree with OP, every squady should have an ability that damages or ignores shields/barrier/armor. On insane I have basically only found Samara, Miranda, Zaeed, Kasumi, Garrus, Tali, and Legion helpful (Tali and Legion on mech/geth battles only). Morinth, Jack, Thane, Grunt, and Jacob are of little use to my Vanguard. Every squady should have an ability that does CC or stagger, an ability to crack shields, an ability to crack barriers, and an ability to crack armor. I'd be happy if the CC and cracks were in one ability or separate, but we need them to keep things fun on higher difficulties. Diminished usefulness is fine, as long as they are useful.

Jack, for example, was total canon fodder. I'd find her dead in the middle of most fights on insane. Let her shockwave at least move the guys with shield/barriers/armor. Replace jacks pull with Crush which should damage shields/barriers/armor. Jack should have a passive/defensive power that stuns and throws enemies on her; some sort of biotic pulse. Jack was particularly disappointing because the wild gap between her performance on the team compared to her videos of her escape.

[mcsupersport]

And yet Jack with a sentinel becomes a very useful person, with squad warp ammo, and area pull on a fast cool for warp explosions. Vanguard is great with Miranda, while she is redundant to sentinel. Not every character needs to mesh well with every class.

Most of the so called problems with protections are user error. There are very few powers that are bad, and even those can work, there are just usually better or easier powers to use.

[RedCaesar97]

bucyrus5000 wrote...
I somewhat agree with OP, every squady should have an ability that damages or ignores shields/barrier/armor.
...
Every squady should have an ability that does CC or stagger, an ability to crack shields, an ability to crack barriers, and an ability to crack armor. I'd be happy if the CC and cracks were in one ability or separate, but we need them to keep things fun on higher difficulties. Diminished usefulness is fine, as long as they are useful.

In ME2, both Flashbang and Stasis bypass protections and they are considered the most overpowered abilities in the game. Stasis would be better if the enemy did not fall after it wore off. I prefer that powers either strip protections (overload, incinerate, warp) or affect health like they do now. It provides an extra layer of challenge, which is what it is supposed to do.

On Hardcore and Insanity, all enemies have protection. They are the hardest difficulties so they should provide the greatest challenge. On lower difficulties, only boss-type characters have protections which is supposed to make them more challenging. 

I like the protection mechanic better than the ME1 version of difficulty, where it was more tedious rather than difficult, and not really fun (at least in my opinion).

On insane I have basically only found Samara, Miranda, Zaeed, Kasumi, Garrus, Tali, and Legion helpful (Tali and Legion on mech/geth battles only). Morinth, Jack, Thane, Grunt, and Jacob are of little use to my Vanguard. 

For Charge-heavy Vanguards, squadmates are interchangeable. Same thing for cloak-heavy Infiltrators, Adrenaline-rush spamming Soldiers, and assault Sentinels.

For me, I find half of my squad is nearly useless. Unless I'm on a Loyalty mission:
- For my Adepts, I like Mordin (Cryo Blast), and Miranda and Thane (Warp bombs). I'll take Zaeed for Geth missions (Disruptor ammo)
- For my defense-stripping Engineer: Mordin (Cryo Blast), Jack and/or Samara/Morinth (Pull)
- For my defense-stripping Sentinel: Mordin (Cryo Blast), Jack and/or Samara/Morinth (Pull)
- I have not played a full game with a crowd-control Engineer or Sentinel yet, but if/when I do, only then would I use defense-stripping squadmates.

[No Snakes Alive]

Mordin absolutely wrecks in missions that have a heavy presence of armored foes (ie his and Grunt's loyalty missions). Every squadmate can't be good for every mission. Learn to use the right ones for the right missions. And learn to strip defenses properly.

Or lower the difficulty. Seriously. The inability to use powers effectively on foes with shields, armor, and/or barriers (and the need to utilize different abilities to strip each of those various protections) is absolutely integral to adding the extra layer of strategy and challenge for those who seek it. If you don't like that, there already IS a middle-ground for you. Try the difficulties between Casual and Insanity.

I'm really sick of people complaining about their inability/unwillingness to overcome defenses when said defenses are optional.

[dahoughtonuk]

The problem with the biotic was how effective their can opener was. It wasn't. It took 1 small bit off 2 protections, even on casual. Mordin's flame dealt with Armour and regeneration. Overload type can opens took off most. Now if the can opener isn't effective on easy, it is going to be useless on higher level difficulties.

A noticable improvement would be to boost the can opening.

[Someone With Mass]

Just use your guns if you don't have any specific power that's effective against a specific protection.

[RedCaesar97]

dahoughtonuk wrote...

The problem with the biotic was how effective their can opener was. It wasn't. It took 1 small bit off 2 protections, even on casual. Mordin's flame dealt with Armour and regeneration. Overload type can opens took off most. Now if the can opener isn't effective on easy, it is going to be useless on higher level difficulties.

A noticable improvement would be to boost the can opening.

Not sure what you are getting at. Adepts have no native abilities to strip shields. Only the Sentinel has native abilities to strip all three types of protections. Adepts have Warp which does extra damage to both armor and barriers, and also stops health regeneration. All on a shorter cooldown then Mordin's Incinerate. Are you suggesting the Adept gains a shield-busting ability?

[Pulletlamer]

This thread again?

Learn how to use the powers.

Being able to use pull/throw on every enemy has no skill involved. It's just an awesome button.

If you want that, play casual. I want a real challenge, and I'm glad bioware is elevating the difficulty for ME3.

[dahoughtonuk]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

dahoughtonuk wrote...

The problem with the biotic was how effective their can opener was. It wasn't. It took 1 small bit off 2 protections, even on casual. Mordin's flame dealt with Armour and regeneration. Overload type can opens took off most. Now if the can opener isn't effective on easy, it is going to be useless on higher level difficulties.

A noticable improvement would be to boost the can opening.

Not sure what you are getting at. Adepts have no native abilities to strip shields. Only the Sentinel has native abilities to strip all three types of protections. Adepts have Warp which does extra damage to both armor and barriers, and also stops health regeneration. All on a shorter cooldown then Mordin's Incinerate. Are you suggesting the Adept gains a shield-busting ability?

NO I don;'t want adepts to have overloaf, but let's see Engineers can deal with health armour ad shields, and are powerful at it. (Flamer)

Warp does half the damage if that to health, barriers and armour. I'd prefer one with more power  but more limited. Say barriers and armour. So even having  more balanced enemy types isn't quite enough to state the biotic will not be underpowered.

A soldier has three type of defendse stripping.

Warp- just under Concussive shot strength.
Flamer just shy of overload strength.

Modifié par dahoughtonuk, 05 août 2011 - 10:14 .

[Yeti1069]

My issue is that some characters (allies) just feel pointless on harder difficulties because they don't do much of anything until defenses are stripped. Sure, Jack packs a punch after those shields, barriers and armor are stripped away, but before then, she's hardly worth a team slot, and I find that, most of the time, after defenses have been stripped away, finishing off an enemy requires little effort (that was true on Hardcore, a little less so, so far, on Insanity).

I liked Jack, but never use her because she just doesn't do anything noteworthy for over half of a fight. Mordin's Incinerate is great in some encounters, and somewhat pointless in many others.

Perhaps I just haven't played the game as many times as some of you have, but I DO work at stripping defenses and combining squad mates to meet the threat posed by each mission...I just feel that the characters I would like to use (mostly for their commentary) don't, because they feel like dead weight more often than not.

I'm not complaining about the defense layers and their restricting powers so much as how much they restrict power usage and, more pointedly, how that impacts the utility of some of your squad mates.

A few of you are touting Mordin...what do you do with him when faced with a bunch of enemies with shields or barriers? Just don't bring him along? That's a big chunk of the game. Do you just use Heavy versions of powers to focus on stripping one enemy at a time (ie. Heavy Warp vs. Barrier, Heavy Incinerate vs. armor, Cryo)? With the number of enemies that can swarm the group, that seems inefficient.

[Pulletlamer]

^The problem with the squadmates is the AI, not the enemies defenses. ME2 AI was retarded. Especially squadmate AI. That's something ME3 has to improve.

Anyway I believe they make 50% less damage so they're not really that useful.

You have to adequate your team for each battle. Also when you don't know what enemies you're going to find the best solution is choosing versatile squadmates like Miranda and Garrus.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 05 août 2011 - 10:23 .

[bucyrus5000]

Pulletlamer wrote...

This thread again?

Learn how to use the powers.

Being able to use pull/throw on every enemy has no skill involved. It's just an awesome button.

If you want that, play casual. I want a real challenge, and I'm glad bioware is elevating the difficulty for ME3.

you misunderstand me. I have no difficulty playing on insane, I just want to have fun with all my squadies.

[RedCaesar97]

dahoughtonuk wrote...

NO I don;'t want adepts to have overloaf, but let's see Engineers can deal with health armour ad shields, and are powerful at it. (Flamer)

Warp does half the damage if that to health, barriers and armour. I'd prefer one with more power  but more limited. Say barriers and armour. So even having  more balanced enemy types isn't quite enough to state the biotic will not be underpowered.

A soldier has three type of defendse stripping.

Warp- just under Concussive shot strength.
Flamer just shy of overload strength.

Adepts can deal with Health better than the Engineer. The Engineer has Cro Blast and occasionally AI Hacking. That is it. Adepts have Pull, Throw, Singularity, and Shockwave.

Soldier has only one defense-stripping ability and that is Concussive shot, and both Reave (available to all classes) and Warp are better at stripping barriers, and can also be used to strip Armor. Disruptor Ammo and Incendiary Ammo are not defense-stripping abilities, but only (marginally) increase damage versus Shields/Armor and are better for the crowd-control effects anyway.

Warp does less damage to health than Armor and Barriers because it GAINS damage against Armor and Barriers, similar to how Overload gains damage against shields and Incinerate gains damage against armor. 

[Yeti1069]

bucyrus5000 wrote...


you misunderstand me. I have no difficulty playing on insane, I just want to have fun with all my squadies.

That's basically my point: I want to use Jack and Mordin and Samara (pre-loyalty), but just can't find many uses for them. Mordin at least sees a lot of play on Tchunka, but Jack isn't even all that useful during her own loyalty mission.