313 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

U really dont need to waste our time trying to explain how the basics of the game works to me. I can assume u wouldnt need the same eitheer. So i didnt read much of your post.

Ive always wondered y caster classes r stuck with sidearms anyways. Comparing classes without weapons, each classes abilities are very evenly comparable. But then the combat classes also get more and better guns.

[littlezack]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

U really dont need to waste our time trying to explain how the basics of the game works to me. I can assume u wouldnt need the same eitheer. So i didnt read much of your post.

Ive always wondered y caster classes r stuck with sidearms anyways. Comparing classes without weapons, each classes abilities are very evenly comparable. But then the combat classes also get more and better guns.

How do you figure?

A soldier without weapons pretty much just has concussive shot and adrenaline rush...and adrenaline rush is more or less useless without a weapon. Concussive Shot has it's uses, but as a power goes, it's lacking.

An infiltrator has tactical cloak and incinerate, but he's much the same way - Tactical Cloak is pretty much just useful as a way of quickly escaping enemies if you don't a gun to back it up. Incinerate is a fairly useful power, but there are situations where it won't do squat. And AI Hacking...well, yeah. Has it's uses, but it's not something you can rely on.

Vanguard? Again, Charging in is fairly pointless offensively. without a gun to follow up the attack. Shockwave and Pull are decent, sure, so you could get by, but without a way to effectively use Charge, you're lacking big time.

The caster classes can survive fairly well without guns. Not so much for the combat classes..

[adonfraz]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i disagree. id say the combat classes were created with the fact that theyll be using weapons when they play the game. while caster classes were created without a single thought put towards them needing weapons too.

its more like combat classes are designed around their weapons AND their abilities. caster classes only rely on their abilities, which doesnt work so well for them on insanity.

And I will also have to disagree. I find that the weapons-based classes are designed around the weapons:
 - The Soldier's ammo powers and Adrenaline Rush are designed so the Soldier has guns and abilities for every situation.
 - The Infiltrator's Cloak is designed to help them snipe effectively. Disruptor Ammo helps increase a sniper rifle's strength just enough to help take down shields faster.
 - The Vanguard's charge is designed to get the Vanguard up close and personal with the shotgun and Inferno ammo can panic organic enemies long enough so the Vanguard can survive long enough in the open while in cooldown.

The Infiltrator and Vanguad have some other options besides weapons, but those options are limited.

The powers-based classes rely more on their abilities than weapons, on that I will agree with you. But I disagree that no thought was given to their weapon requirements. The Sentinel, Adept, and Engineer only need enough weapons to deal with barriers, shields, and armor, and they have that in the pistol and SMG, which deal significant damage to defenses.

The powers-based classes also have powers that can strip at least two defenses quickly:
 - Engineer has Overload (shields) and Incinerate (armor)
 - Adept has Warp (armor and barrier)
 - Sentinel has Overload and Warp
At most, the weapons-based classes have only one ability that can strip defenses quickly.

Whenever I play a caster class--Sentinel, Adept, and Engineer--I have never relied on just their abilities.

If I strip a merc's shields with an Overload, my character is now on cooldown and the merc is still running around. I then have to shoot him dead, but weapons do not gain bonuses against health so I have to first use a squadmate's pull or Mordin's cryo blast to disable the target; A frozen or pulled target increases my weapon damage so I can then kill him quicker.

Or, I can first shoot the merc's shield off myself and then follow up with one of my abilities, such as Pull or Cryo Blast. The benefit of this second option is that my cooldown is short so I can follow up with another attack very quicky, and my squadmates are not in cooldown so I can have them follow up with an attack (such as Throw or Warp) or I can save their cooldowns for in a more important situation.

I could also get a squadmate to strip the shields for me, but I find that usually eats up my squadmate's cooldown for too long.

The powers-based classes do need weapons, but only enough so they can strip defenses quickly; and they have both the SMG and Pistol which is more than enough.

Now I am not saying the powers-based classes were perfect when it came to weapons. Would it have been nice if they could a get their bonus weapon quicker in ME2? Absolutely. I will also admit that the powers-based classes were kind of shafted in that the weapons-based classes had the choice between an exclusive weapon (Claymore, Revenant, or Widow) or a new weapon type, but the powers-based classes could only select a new weapon type.

The ammo powers of weapons-based classes and their inherent CC effects on unshielded targets kinda of undermines the point of the caster classes CC powers once defenses are stripped.

You are correct that casters should use guns or squadmate powers to strip defenses on standard enemies. However even when defenses are gone casters don't have a huge advantage over weapon classes in terms of CC because of ammo powers.

Inferno panics, Cryo freezes, and Disruptor overloads guns/mechs. Powers can curve but with ammo powers you can CC and damage the enemy at the same time.

I'm not saying caster classes suck but their ability to CC unprotected enemies better than weapon classes is a bit overstated.

That being said when you look at the firepower casters give up for those CC powers, it doesn't look like a fair trade IMO.

[Someone With Mass]

littlezack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

U really dont need to waste our time trying to explain how the basics of the game works to me. I can assume u wouldnt need the same eitheer. So i didnt read much of your post.

Ive always wondered y caster classes r stuck with sidearms anyways. Comparing classes without weapons, each classes abilities are very evenly comparable. But then the combat classes also get more and better guns.

How do you figure?

A soldier without weapons pretty much just has concussive shot and adrenaline rush...and adrenaline rush is more or less useless without a weapon. Concussive Shot has it's uses, but as a power goes, it's lacking.

An infiltrator has tactical cloak and incinerate, but he's much the same way - Tactical Cloak is pretty much just useful as a way of quickly escaping enemies if you don't a gun to back it up. Incinerate is a fairly useful power, but there are situations where it won't do squat. And AI Hacking...well, yeah. Has it's uses, but it's not something you can rely on.

Vanguard? Again, Charging in is fairly pointless offensively. without a gun to follow up the attack. Shockwave and Pull are decent, sure, so you could get by, but without a way to effectively use Charge, you're lacking big time.

The caster classes can survive fairly well without guns. Not so much for the combat classes..

AI Hacking will be replaced/intertwined with Sabotage in ME3, though, which gives it the ability to disable enemy weapons. That could buy people some time.

[littlezack]

Someone With Mass wrote...

littlezack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

U really dont need to waste our time trying to explain how the basics of the game works to me. I can assume u wouldnt need the same eitheer. So i didnt read much of your post.

Ive always wondered y caster classes r stuck with sidearms anyways. Comparing classes without weapons, each classes abilities are very evenly comparable. But then the combat classes also get more and better guns.

How do you figure?

A soldier without weapons pretty much just has concussive shot and adrenaline rush...and adrenaline rush is more or less useless without a weapon. Concussive Shot has it's uses, but as a power goes, it's lacking.

An infiltrator has tactical cloak and incinerate, but he's much the same way - Tactical Cloak is pretty much just useful as a way of quickly escaping enemies if you don't a gun to back it up. Incinerate is a fairly useful power, but there are situations where it won't do squat. And AI Hacking...well, yeah. Has it's uses, but it's not something you can rely on.

Vanguard? Again, Charging in is fairly pointless offensively. without a gun to follow up the attack. Shockwave and Pull are decent, sure, so you could get by, but without a way to effectively use Charge, you're lacking big time.

The caster classes can survive fairly well without guns. Not so much for the combat classes..

AI Hacking will be replaced/intertwined with Sabotage in ME3, though, which gives it the ability to disable enemy weapons. That could buy people some time.

Yeah, I was thinking more of ME2. Still, even with Sabotage, Infiltrator's only have one REAL combat power to fall back on. Everything else is just useful for running away.

[Shepard the Leper]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

The three weapons-based classes--Soldier, Vanguard, and Infiltrator--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with weapons. The Soldier is the weapons specialist, able to disable and kill enemies with all weapons. The Infiltrator is the sniper specialist, and the Vanguard is the Shotgun specialist.

The three powers-based classes--Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with powers.

You can't be more wrong. Mass Effect's gameplay is about combining weapons and special abilities, not one or the other. Caster classes are not designed to disable and kill enemies with powers, they are designed to use their powers to increase their combat potential - like all the other classes btw. A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

Thank the Goddess for BW's wisdom to correct their mistake to give casters crappy weapons for starters in ME2.

[Someone With Mass]

littlezack wrote...

Yeah, I was thinking more of ME2. Still, even with Sabotage, Infiltrator's only have one REAL combat power to fall back on. Everything else is just useful for running away.

Well, it's better than nothing.

Plus, you can always resort to cloak and stab if you're out of ammo in ME3. 

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

I didn't know soldier's rush do not do anything against protected enemy like pull...

[Aumata]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

The three weapons-based classes--Soldier, Vanguard, and Infiltrator--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with weapons. The Soldier is the weapons specialist, able to disable and kill enemies with all weapons. The Infiltrator is the sniper specialist, and the Vanguard is the Shotgun specialist.

The three powers-based classes--Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with powers.

You can't be more wrong. Mass Effect's gameplay is about combining weapons and special abilities, not one or the other. Caster classes are not designed to disable and kill enemies with powers, they are designed to use their powers to increase their combat potential - like all the other classes btw. A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

Thank the Goddess for BW's wisdom to correct their mistake to give casters crappy weapons for starters in ME2.

That is the best damn thing they did for the caster class in Mass Effect 3.  Was always bothered by the fact that I got stuck with crap weapons for the caster classes.

[alex90c]

Aumata wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

The three weapons-based classes--Soldier, Vanguard, and Infiltrator--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with weapons. The Soldier is the weapons specialist, able to disable and kill enemies with all weapons. The Infiltrator is the sniper specialist, and the Vanguard is the Shotgun specialist.

The three powers-based classes--Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with powers.

You can't be more wrong. Mass Effect's gameplay is about combining weapons and special abilities, not one or the other. Caster classes are not designed to disable and kill enemies with powers, they are designed to use their powers to increase their combat potential - like all the other classes btw. A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

Thank the Goddess for BW's wisdom to correct their mistake to give casters crappy weapons for starters in ME2.

That is the best damn thing they did for the caster class in Mass Effect 3.  Was always bothered by the fact that I got stuck with crap weapons for the caster classes.

Playing Jack's recruitment w/Sentinel on Insanity was just flat out awful; I have nothing but hatred for the Shuriken, which is why I like to do Haestrom and then the CS as soon as possible so I can get the Tempest and then AR specialisation. Eurgh.

[lazuli]

alex90c wrote...

Playing Jack's recruitment w/Sentinel on Insanity was just flat out awful; I have nothing but hatred for the Shuriken, which is why I like to do Haestrom and then the CS as soon as possible so I can get the Tempest and then AR specialisation. Eurgh.

Sentinels have it better than other casters.  The Shuriken is best in close combat.  So is the Sentinel.

[Shepard the Leper]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...
A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

I didn't know soldier's rush do not do anything against protected enemy like pull...

Did you know you can use Pull four times before ARush becomes available again? Ever noticed that enemies are still shooting back in ARush? They don't when they're Pulled, and they remain incapable to fight back for a long time. ARush would be total crap without the added protection system (and is a lousy power compared to Pull when you're playing below HC difficulty).

[RedCaesar97]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
The three weapons-based classes--Soldier, Vanguard, and Infiltrator--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with weapons. The Soldier is the weapons specialist, able to disable and kill enemies with all weapons. The Infiltrator is the sniper specialist, and the Vanguard is the Shotgun specialist.

The three powers-based classes--Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel--are designed around disabling and killing enemies with powers.

You can't be more wrong. Mass Effect's gameplay is about combining weapons and special abilities, not one or the other. Caster classes are not designed to disable and kill enemies with powers, they are designed to use their powers to increase their combat potential - like all the other classes btw. A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

I stand corrected.

[RedCaesar97]

Aumata wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...
Thank the Goddess for BW's wisdom to correct their mistake to give casters crappy weapons for starters in ME2.

That is the best damn thing they did for the caster class in Mass Effect 3.  Was always bothered by the fact that I got stuck with crap weapons for the caster classes.

I never found the starter pistol or SMG all that bad. They are both better than the Avenger assault rifle. Heck, as a Soldier I'd trade Assault Rifles and Sniper rifles for the SMG.

[Shepard the Leper]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Aumata wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...
Thank the Goddess for BW's wisdom to correct their mistake to give casters crappy weapons for starters in ME2.

That is the best damn thing they did for the caster class in Mass Effect 3.  Was always bothered by the fact that I got stuck with crap weapons for the caster classes.

I never found the starter pistol or SMG all that bad. They are both better than the Avenger assault rifle. Heck, as a Soldier I'd trade Assault Rifles and Sniper rifles for the SMG.

I stand corrected also

I meant a "crappy selection of weapons". The casters suffered most, but the Infiltrator and Vanguard are also "forced" into a specific playstyle. What's wrong with an Infiltrator who's swapped the sniper rifle for a shotgun and goes Ninja? Or an assault rifle wielding Vanguard? More flexibility to pick weapons that suit your playstyle is only a good thing, in ME2 we had to wait til the Collector Ship to have more fun with the powers / abilities at hand.

[Gromnir]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...
A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

I didn't know soldier's rush do not do anything against protected enemy like pull...

Did you know you can use Pull four times before ARush becomes available again? Ever noticed that enemies are still shooting back in ARush? They don't when they're Pulled, and they remain incapable to fight back for a long time. ARush would be total crap without the added protection system (and is a lousy power compared to Pull when you're playing below HC difficulty).

Wow, not often that someone calls AR crap.  I think most people consider it one of the most powerful abilities in the game.  It absolutely shines with certain weapons.

Pull and AR can't be compared, they do completely different things.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Shepard the Leper wrote...
Did you know you can use Pull four times before ARush becomes available again?

And how many killed (not just controlled) enemies (which could have been pull, so no armor or the likes) during one AR?

Ever noticed that enemies are still shooting back in ARush? They don't when they're Pulled, and they remain incapable to fight back for a long time.

Ennemis which could have been pulled actually doesn't have the time to shoot back during AR, cause they are dead before that. Besides, Cryo ammo can also stop them during AR, even if it's not even worth it as they'll be dead before that. 

ARush would be total crap without the added protection system (and is a lousy power compared to Pull when you're playing below HC difficulty).

Didn't know you can use pull on everything like AR, boosted damage in the same way (AR is the only power in the game which even boost other damage boost for the calculation) as AR, and being as polyvalent as AR with pull.

[The Spamming Troll]

littlezack wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

U really dont need to waste our time trying to explain how the basics of the game works to me. I can assume u wouldnt need the same eitheer. So i didnt read much of your post.

Ive always wondered y caster classes r stuck with sidearms anyways. Comparing classes without weapons, each classes abilities are very evenly comparable. But then the combat classes also get more and better guns.

How do you figure?

A soldier without weapons pretty much just has concussive shot and adrenaline rush...and adrenaline rush is more or less useless without a weapon. Concussive Shot has it's uses, but as a power goes, it's lacking.

An infiltrator has tactical cloak and incinerate, but he's much the same way - Tactical Cloak is pretty much just useful as a way of quickly escaping enemies if you don't a gun to back it up. Incinerate is a fairly useful power, but there are situations where it won't do squat. And AI Hacking...well, yeah. Has it's uses, but it's not something you can rely on.

Vanguard? Again, Charging in is fairly pointless offensively. without a gun to follow up the attack. Shockwave and Pull are decent, sure, so you could get by, but without a way to effectively use Charge, you're lacking big time.

The caster classes can survive fairly well without guns. Not so much for the combat classes..

im excluding soldiers. its obviouse enough we cant compare soldiers to the other classes in this discusion. but for the infiltrator and vangaurd your excluding ammo powers. ammo powers arent so great for damage, but they serve an awesome function in terms of CC. one shot of the pistol with cryo ammo is equally as effective as using pull, but it doesnt waste a cooldown and only costs one shot with your gun. if your saying its slow mo sniping and the widow, compared to having cryo blast, id rather take slow mow sniping with the widow, with cryo ammo, while cloaked.....prolly eating a cheeseburger a the same time. even giving caster classes a few debuffs doesnt put them close to the combat classes offensive prowess with weapons.

i also think people are overexagerating when they say "just use overload" to strip defenses. sometimes i feel like overload doesnt even whipe out enough shielding to be worthwhile. instead of a wasteing a cooldown on a debuff, id rather accomplish that with a weapon, at no charge. i AM a soldier after all. im glad bioware is realising that for ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...
A Soldier who activates ARush is exactly like an Adept who Pulls a target. Both powers will double (weapon) damage, make it easier to aim and reduce damage taken.

I didn't know soldier's rush do not do anything against protected enemy like pull...

Did you know you can use Pull four times before ARush becomes available again? Ever noticed that enemies are still shooting back in ARush? They don't when they're Pulled, and they remain incapable to fight back for a long time. ARush would be total crap without the added protection system (and is a lousy power compared to Pull when you're playing below HC difficulty).

i dont think youl find alot of people whod agree wit hthat. you can kill like 5 people with AR and the mattock, while pull might stagger an enemy for half a second. AR is as much a defensive ability as it is offensively, somewhat like cloak and the infiltrator.

[Shepard the Leper]

Gromnir wrote...

Pull and AR can't be compared, they do completely different things.

I already compared them. All powers are there to give the player an edge in combat, so yes, they are all comparable though the player has to use powers in different ways to get the most out of em.

One can use a car, bike, plane, train or their feet to go to another location - they are all means of transportation thus comparable in that regard. One can use Cloak, cast a Combat Drone, or hit the Charge button to close in on the enemy without taking damage and to get into perfect shotgun position - Cloak, Drones and Charge are being used in a comparable way and can make Shepard a deadly combatant at close range. What is it you don't understand about this?

[Shepard the Leper]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

And how many killed (not just controlled) enemies (which could have been pull, so no armor or the likes) during one AR?

Wut?

Ennemis which could have been pulled actually doesn't have the time to shoot back during AR, cause they are dead before that. Besides, Cryo ammo can also stop them during AR, even if it's not even worth it as they'll be dead before that. 

Activating ARush does nothing to enemies - it affects Shepard only. Enemies are not going to be death when you press the button. ARush only makes it easier to kill enemies - like Pull or any power.

Oh, and you're able to kill enemies a lot faster by spamming Pull than ARush when you're playing below HC difficulty level.

Didn't know you can use pull on everything like AR, boosted damage in the same way (AR is the only power in the game which even boost other damage boost for the calculation) as AR, and being as polyvalent as AR with pull.

Then you've learned something today because you can use Pull on everything and you cannot use ARush on everything, only on Shepard.

ARush only boosts Shepard's damage whereas the effects of Pull are benefitial to the entire squad whom's weapon and power damage is also doubled for Pull's duration.

And to get back on topic, removing the protection system would render a power such as ARush obselete - the option to take out all enemies indefinitely is way more powerful and effective than the occasional bullet-time.

[Shepard the Leper]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i dont think youl find alot of people whod agree wit hthat. you can kill like 5 people with AR and the mattock, while pull might stagger an enemy for half a second. AR is as much a defensive ability as it is offensively, somewhat like cloak and the infiltrator.

You're comparing ARush and the Mattock with Pull on its own. And you cannot kill five enemies in one ARush, you can easily disable 4 enemies with 4 Pulls and a lot more when you're using Pull Field.

Pull can also be used both offensively and defensively, so?

[Fixers0]

Personally i hate the whole "defense layer" system, really is this the bestthing bioware could do, now i guess i'ts supposed to make the game more challenging and all, and sure at first it all seemed to be a huge improved, because you know it's more balanced out and plays smoother ,

But after my third playthrough it started to get too much of routine, it was just to much of a chore to strip someone of his protection and do the same thing multiple times all over again to the point were it just annoyed the hell out of me, and makes me which to go through the combat sections as fast as possible because there's nothing to enjoy anymore, now the whole system feels like a contrived gameplay mechanic that really lacks the natural feeling of tension in Combat, Arrival was one of the few exceptions that made gameplay feel unique and actuall had me plan out tactics.

[Someone With Mass]

It's a vast improvement to ME1's combat system, where everyone jerks off to Immunity and regenerates the second you stop shooting.

[Fixers0]

Someone With Mass wrote...

It's a vast improvement to ME1's combat system, where everyone jerks off to Immunity and regenerates the second you stop shooting.

Didn't i say that one of the improvements in Mass Effect 2 was that combat was more balanced?