313 réponses à ce sujet

[No Snakes Alive]

There are videos all over YouTube of people making excellent use of the allegedly inferior squadmates on Insanity, as well as just obliterating that difficulty with the Adept (and making it look incredibly fun in the process). I for one have been able to mimic that success to a large extent in my own playthroughs, as have those agreeing with me, apparently.

So the fact of the matter is that those on the other side of the argument either haven't been able to succeed with Adepts or have been but don't enjoy their unique playstyle on Insanity, to which I remind you once again that there are five other classes and plenty of other difficulties. And to see that someone could argue a Soldier could be done with the mission before an Adept can even set up a Warp bomb just goes to show how ridiculously much user error is being mistaken for game design flaw here. I press left, right, RB and an entire group of enemies has no protections left. If you're incapable of doing that in a second I'd hate to see you try to play a fighting game.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone - I'm just trying to get those of you who think the Adept is inferior to actually try to master the class the way it's meant to be played and realize it isn't underpowered. At all. Maybe it's not suited to your playstyle, maybe Insanity isn't suited to your playstyle. But if there's video proof that Adepts are beyond capable of owning on Insanity then why would anyone who can't duplicate that success themselves argue that it's the class that's ineffective? It's just mind-blowing to me that people can watch entirely entertaining, fun-looking, dominant performances by Adepts on the Internet and argue that the class needs to be fixed.

If replicating what you see in videos of Adepts cruising through Insanity is boring to you then the class just isn't for you. I've seen Soldiers dominate the game, I've replicated it myself, and I found their snooze button of a class-exclusive power coupled with their lack of other powers to be boring. I wouldn't make a thread about how they need to be fixed though because I'm aware that the class plays like it should, and it's just ME who doesn't like that style of play.

I think the real problem here is that the "idea" of the Adept appeals to some people who don't actually find their playstyle enjoyable. They're the class that uses Warp bombs to strip defenses en masse and then toss foes around like ragdolls. If you can't do that, you're doing it wrong. If you can but don't like it, your expectations are doing it wrong. No other class can fly through Insanity as easily with their powers alone, and I'm pretty sure that's how Bioware intended the class to be and how most of us expect them to be. So again, what about them needs to be fixed?

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 09 août 2011 - 05:45 .

[SirBlakhawk]

It's not about it being to hard and it's not about tweaking 1 ability (not just throw but pull and other abilities that are BLOCKED by the game). It's about when the game actually doesn't allow you to use a certain power when you clearly should still be able to just to a weaker extent. It's about the game making sense. I don't care if playing is hard or easy, there is a way around all those defenses yes, and they're easily exploited. I don't want throw/pull to have same effects as warp, I would prefer if the effect wasn't that great, but that biotic abilities shouldn't be just plain blocked from the game if you are a strong enough biotic where defenses aren't as big as an effect as they are when your biotics are weaker. Like the charge for a Vanguard does make sense. You can charge into armored enemies just not have the same destructive effect on weaker enemies unless you have heavy charge (and taken away part of their armor). You could even shockwave them and it would barely have an effect. I'm asking the same idea for pull/throw where you can't throw them or pull them unless you evolved the power to a level that you can but to a lesser effect as it would have on weaker enemies. That's it.

[Shepard the Leper]

Sharn01 wrote...

My beef with powers in ME2 was that armor and shields made up roughly 80% of the targets health, by the time you stripped the defenses away using a power on them was pointless other then to be flashy, as they where a second or two away from dead at that point.

This is utter nonsense. The protection-health ratio is 50-50; powers and weapons receive massive multipliers against protection - none against health. When using the appropriate powers/weapons means protection will be roughly 1/3 of total enemy HP, leaving 2/3 to be dealt with using powers that are not effective against defenses (like Pull and Throw). If you think 2/3 of all damage is neglectible ...

SirBlakhawk wrote...

It's not about it being to hard and it's not about tweaking 1 ability (not just throw but pull and other abilities that are BLOCKED by the game). It's about when the game actually doesn't allow you to use a certain power when you clearly should still be able to just to a weaker extent. It's about the game making sense. I don't care if playing is hard or easy, there is a way around all those defenses yes, and they're easily exploited. I don't want throw/pull to have same effects as warp, I would prefer if the effect wasn't that great, but that biotic abilities shouldn't be just plain blocked from the game if you are a strong enough biotic where defenses aren't as big as an effect as they are when your biotics are weaker. Like the charge for a Vanguard does make sense. You can charge into armored enemies just not have the same destructive effect on weaker enemies unless you have heavy charge (and taken away part of their armor). You could even shockwave them and it would barely have an effect. I'm asking the same idea for pull/throw where you can't throw them or pull them unless you evolved the power to a level that you can but to a lesser effect as it would have on weaker enemies. That's it.

The point of powers in ME2 is to use the 'right' one at the right time. When Pull and Throw affect enemies who have protection, it ruins the entire power structure. Singularity is the power Adepts have to handle enemies with protection. The moment you allow Pull and Throw the same, Singularity becomes completely redundant. Pull and Throw are much better to handle enemies without protection; Singularity with protection - that's balance, ensuring every power has its uses (and limitations).

If you don't like this, don't play the Adept class on Insanity. On Normal (the default level; around which the game has been balanced) you can Pull, Throw, Shockwave almost anyone, immediately.

[Shepard the Leper]

lazuli wrote...

I agree.  I just think that investing heavily into an ability could lead to a more pronounced reward than a second long stagger.  I know the value of staggers.  Though they only last a second or so, that is often long enough to save your life if used correctly.  So what I'd like is a slightly longer stagger in certain cases.  Maybe it would be 2-2.5 seconds long, with some sort of gradual immunity built up in the enemy (a la Stasis, ME2) so you can't just chain it on Geth Primes until the end of time.

That might work, but it will be tricky to get right. Stuff like Pull and Throw can be used every 2 seconds (with cooldown reduction); when staggers get close to that time frame, it would result in having the option to stagger-lock most enemies indefinitely - not good imo. It could be implemented to increase Shockwave's use to stagger large goups for a reasonable amount of time though (2 - 2.5 s stagger on a 4-6 s cooldown does not change or affect the other powers).

Pull and Throw's CC effects, when used against protected enemies, can never be close to what Singularity can do to them. The question should be about how close those powers can get without rendering Singularity obselete. It will be a small margin though. 

[No Snakes Alive]

SirBlakhawk wrote...

It's not about it being to hard and it's not about tweaking 1 ability (not just throw but pull and other abilities that are BLOCKED by the game). It's about when the game actually doesn't allow you to use a certain power when you clearly should still be able to just to a weaker extent. It's about the game making sense. I don't care if playing is hard or easy, there is a way around all those defenses yes, and they're easily exploited. I don't want throw/pull to have same effects as warp, I would prefer if the effect wasn't that great, but that biotic abilities shouldn't be just plain blocked from the game if you are a strong enough biotic where defenses aren't as big as an effect as they are when your biotics are weaker. Like the charge for a Vanguard does make sense. You can charge into armored enemies just not have the same destructive effect on weaker enemies unless you have heavy charge (and taken away part of their armor). You could even shockwave them and it would barely have an effect. I'm asking the same idea for pull/throw where you can't throw them or pull them unless you evolved the power to a level that you can but to a lesser effect as it would have on weaker enemies. That's it.

See, to me it makes even less sense to see a protected enemy and ever think to want to use Pull or Throw to lesser effect on them. From a gameplay standpoint it sounds retarded (and pointless for Bioware to implement because it promotes doing things wrong) and who in their right mind would want to Weak-Pull a protected enemy when you could Warp/Warp-bomb/shoot/squadmate their d off and THEN fling them into the sky to full effect? Sounds to me like somebody accidentally uses the wrong powers often and gets owned in the process...

And lore-wise why can't you just get creative? Or play on a lower difficulty? Sure the game doesn't allow me to Throw protected enemies at all, technically, but really in my mind it's that my Shepard WON'T do it because using Biotics strains the mind of the Adept and flinging enemies knto walls with the force of a hurricane without properly aeakening them first is not an ideal approach to Biotic combat. So yet again this proposal makes LESS sense to me. That's all it takes to make sense of things like this.

I feel like I'm in the midst of an Omni-blade discussion again here. And it's sad because I've yet to see an Engineer player complain that it makes no sense that Cryo does nothing on a protected foe. Are Engineer players more intelligent or less whiny? It makes sense gameplay-wise and that's what matters most.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 09 août 2011 - 10:35 .

[The Spamming Troll]

dreman9999 wrote...

Gromnir wrote...

Yeti1069 wrote...

Eh. I like the challenge, but I dislike having a lot of powers and characters go unused due simply to their ineffectiveness against most of the game. There's a middle ground between "too effective" and "not effective".

An example:
Armored targets are treated as being heavier when attacked by powers that cause movement (Lift, Slam, Singularity, etc...); if your power has enough force (in Newtons) to move the thing you're attacking it will work, even if armored, but not as far or fast and with a shorter duration.

Another suggestion:
Using a power against certain defenses will cause the power to go on a longer cooldown as it required more effort to get it to work through defenses.

Or:
Some defense-power interactions could cause damaging feedback. Sure, you may lift Throw that enemy, but their biotic Barrier will cause your power to backlash to some degree.

Ultimately, we're going to have more options for evolving powers, and the sorts of improved interactions I'm hoping for would dovetail with these new options, especially in promoting something like Heavy evolutions vs. Area evolutions, which was a rather weak decision point in ME2 (going Area was almost always the better decision).

I do think it would be better if protections worked differently from each other.  I know they are different in regards to certain things being able to punch through them easier, but they otherwise behave the same. 

Protections should also act more like resistances instead of immunities.  A low-level enemy's armor shouldn't be able to stand up to your max-level throw.  Or perhaps the effectiveness of a protection decreases as it gets depleted.

That would make it like ME1...and that was broken.

wow, a great idea, shot down like nothing. you really are going to frustrate me in this argument to further along ME2s abilities/protections thing if you so easily shoot down every single option someone offers.

in ME2 your playing a game incapable enough to give you a proper challenge. so they added enemy protections and removed our abilities to give us a harder gaemplay.

why dont enemy protections nullify weapons fire, and only allow abilities to work?

[crimzontearz]

there is no sense in creating awesome lore only to crap on it in the second game for sake of gameplay preferences.

Truth is, it was a way to artificially inflate difficulty. It backfired a little because, for instance, the adept was supposed to be a CC not a debuffer, yet on insanity the only thing he can do is spam warp and singularity...all his other powers are neigh useless. Remember Christina Norman doing the Adept video reveal? "If you want to be able to control the battlefield without shooting a single bullet the Adept is for you".....showing you how to fling enemies everywhere and whatnot? THAT is what the adeptis meant to do. Insanity requires a different play style that is just NOT adept whereas the other classes remain true to their concept idea when it comes to play style minus the obvious needed adapatations for caution and intelligent timing due to the inflated damage and health of the enemies. THAT is what people are upset about I believe

If the difficulty had been handled in a less lazily way we would not been having this argument.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

My beef with powers in ME2 was that armor and shields made up roughly 80% of the targets health, by the time you stripped the defenses away using a power on them was pointless other then to be flashy, as they where a second or two away from dead at that point.

This is utter nonsense. The protection-health ratio is 50-50; powers and weapons receive massive multipliers against protection - none against health. When using the appropriate powers/weapons means protection will be roughly 1/3 of total enemy HP, leaving 2/3 to be dealt with using powers that are not effective against defenses (like Pull and Throw). If you think 2/3 of all damage is neglectible ...

SirBlakhawk wrote...

It's not about it being to hard and it's not about tweaking 1 ability (not just throw but pull and other abilities that are BLOCKED by the game). It's about when the game actually doesn't allow you to use a certain power when you clearly should still be able to just to a weaker extent. It's about the game making sense. I don't care if playing is hard or easy, there is a way around all those defenses yes, and they're easily exploited. I don't want throw/pull to have same effects as warp, I would prefer if the effect wasn't that great, but that biotic abilities shouldn't be just plain blocked from the game if you are a strong enough biotic where defenses aren't as big as an effect as they are when your biotics are weaker. Like the charge for a Vanguard does make sense. You can charge into armored enemies just not have the same destructive effect on weaker enemies unless you have heavy charge (and taken away part of their armor). You could even shockwave them and it would barely have an effect. I'm asking the same idea for pull/throw where you can't throw them or pull them unless you evolved the power to a level that you can but to a lesser effect as it would have on weaker enemies. That's it.

The point of powers in ME2 is to use the 'right' one at the right time. When Pull and Throw affect enemies who have protection, it ruins the entire power structure. Singularity is the power Adepts have to handle enemies with protection. The moment you allow Pull and Throw the same, Singularity becomes completely redundant. Pull and Throw are much better to handle enemies without protection; Singularity with protection - that's balance, ensuring every power has its uses (and limitations).

If you don't like this, don't play the Adept class on Insanity. On Normal (the default level; around which the game has been balanced) you can Pull, Throw, Shockwave almost anyone, immediately.

say what you want about health/protections, but theres a reason why everyone thinks its a waste of a cooldown to use an ability on enemies in health. maybe my games weird, but i dont think ive ever noticed health being harder to take out then protections. its very noticable the eas of taking out health compared to protections. i know somne crunched numbers or something to find out health actually has more HP then protections, but i simply dont agree with it.

that line i bolded is hilarious. really? were not just throwing our powers out there all willy nilly.  theres no right or wrong abilities when it comes to enemy protections. theres only wrong.

[The Spamming Troll]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

There are videos all over YouTube of people making excellent use of the allegedly inferior squadmates on Insanity, as well as just obliterating that difficulty with the Adept (and making it look incredibly fun in the process). I for one have been able to mimic that success to a large extent in my own playthroughs, as have those agreeing with me, apparently.

So the fact of the matter is that those on the other side of the argument either haven't been able to succeed with Adepts or have been but don't enjoy their unique playstyle on Insanity, to which I remind you once again that there are five other classes and plenty of other difficulties. And to see that someone could argue a Soldier could be done with the mission before an Adept can even set up a Warp bomb just goes to show how ridiculously much user error is being mistaken for game design flaw here. I press left, right, RB and an entire group of enemies has no protections left. If you're incapable of doing that in a second I'd hate to see you try to play a fighting game.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone - I'm just trying to get those of you who think the Adept is inferior to actually try to master the class the way it's meant to be played and realize it isn't underpowered. At all. Maybe it's not suited to your playstyle, maybe Insanity isn't suited to your playstyle. But if there's video proof that Adepts are beyond capable of owning on Insanity then why would anyone who can't duplicate that success themselves argue that it's the class that's ineffective? It's just mind-blowing to me that people can watch entirely entertaining, fun-looking, dominant performances by Adepts on the Internet and argue that the class needs to be fixed.

If replicating what you see in videos of Adepts cruising through Insanity is boring to you then the class just isn't for you. I've seen Soldiers dominate the game, I've replicated it myself, and I found their snooze button of a class-exclusive power coupled with their lack of other powers to be boring. I wouldn't make a thread about how they need to be fixed though because I'm aware that the class plays like it should, and it's just ME who doesn't like that style of play.

I think the real problem here is that the "idea" of the Adept appeals to some people who don't actually find their playstyle enjoyable. They're the class that uses Warp bombs to strip defenses en masse and then toss foes around like ragdolls. If you can't do that, you're doing it wrong. If you can but don't like it, your expectations are doing it wrong. No other class can fly through Insanity as easily with their powers alone, and I'm pretty sure that's how Bioware intended the class to be and how most of us expect them to be. So again, what about them needs to be fixed?

you just wasted your time writing that. your not going to change anyones mind about the problems they have with throw not working on armor by saying "you suck at ME2."

theres no figuring out adepts, theres no learning curve. the game is easy with enemy protecions.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 09 août 2011 - 02:12 .

[Shepard the Leper]

crimzontearz wrote...

there is no sense in creating awesome lore only to crap on it in the second game for sake of gameplay preferences.

Mass Effect is a game, not lore only. In games gameplay rules supreme, everything else is of no to little concern.

Gameplay is everything.

Truth is, it was a way to artificially inflate difficulty. It backfired a little because, for instance, the adept was supposed to be a CC not a debuffer, yet on insanity the only thing he can do is spam warp and singularity...all his other powers are neigh useless. Remember Christina Norman doing the Adept video reveal? "If you want to be able to control the battlefield without shooting a single bullet the Adept is for you".....showing you how to fling enemies everywhere and whatnot? THAT is what the adeptis meant to do. Insanity requires a different play style that is just NOT adept whereas the other classes remain true to their concept idea when it comes to play style minus the obvious needed adapatations for caution and intelligent timing due to the inflated damage and health of the enemies. THAT is what people are upset about I believe

If the difficulty had been handled in a less lazily way we would not been having this argument.

Are you aware that Christina was talking about the default difficutly? Also, she said, Adepts are the best class to take out enemies without firing a shot. This does not mean Adept are meant to fight in such a way. It's the same thing as saying "Soldiers are best at killing enemies with weapons."

If you can't feel like an Adept on the toughest difficulty, play an easier one. Your arguments about powers being useless are ridiculous. They have been dismissed a long time ago.

BTW, how do you propose to increase difficulty? The game would be insanely easy without protection - not to mention protection is also around on Casual.

[Shepard the Leper]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

that line i bolded is hilarious. really? were not just throwing our powers out there all willy nilly.  theres no right or wrong abilities when it comes to enemy protections. theres only wrong.

Ever heard of games where some enemies are immune to fire attacks? Or frost attacks? Gee, that must be really terrible games if some powers are useless against certain foes.

In ME2 all enemies have health (except Harby, Scions and Preatorians) thus can be attacked with all powers. Sounds a lot better than the fire-frost-etc immunities.

Are you also upset because AI Hacking doesn't work on organics? Or that Singularity was useless (in ME1) against Geth Colossi and Saren? Those powers must suck big-time, eh?

[Jack Vincennes]

During my Insanity Adept playthrough, I found that the best thing (for me) to do was to either take Miranda and Thane (Warp explosions + damage against barrier, shield and armour) for barrier-heavy missions (Collector base anyone?).

And for more mech-filled missions, take Miranda and Garrus (Squad bonuses + double overload + warp explosions) and that seemed to work for me.

[crimzontearz]

To leper

1: gameplay is NOT everything especially in a game like ME or else I'd be playing Halo or Crysis 2 over Mass Effect.

2: I DO NOT play adept I play vanguard but I do understand while people are upset. My arguments, and those of others, were dismissed because other people find it "fun" to play adept ad "required" by insanity. I am fully aware that Christina was talking about the Baseline experience and difficulty but THAT is what the adept is supposed to "feel" like and it does not on insanity.

Difficulty could have been handled better. With defenses granting immunity to some powers but not ALL of them wich makes sense only through the devs giving technomagic explanations with upgrades (shields preventing hacking attempts isridiculous in my opinion). More responsive or tactical enemies as opposed to skewed damage/health boosts (to make them feel tougher) and the addition of defenses (and thus immunities) to EVERYRHING including feral varren.

[lazuli]

Shepard the Leper wrote...


That might work, but it will be tricky to get right. Stuff like Pull and Throw can be used every 2 seconds (with cooldown reduction); when staggers get close to that time frame, it would result in having the option to stagger-lock most enemies indefinitely - not good imo. It could be implemented to increase Shockwave's use to stagger large goups for a reasonable amount of time though (2 - 2.5 s stagger on a 4-6 s cooldown does not change or affect the other powers).

Pull and Throw's CC effects, when used against protected enemies, can never be close to what Singularity can do to them. The question should be about how close those powers can get without rendering Singularity obselete. It will be a small margin though. 

There are a wide range of solutions, but you are certainly correct to bring up the dangers of such a system.  Shockwave would benefit from the longer staggers and wouldn't become immediately overpowered, as it is already quite awful.

Another way to balance this would be a "proc" chance.  For instance, Heavy Throw staggers protected targets for ~1 second with a 25% chance for an improved stagger (~3 seconds) or something.  That element of randomness might not fit well in Mass Effect 3's combat, though.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

there is no sense in creating awesome lore only to crap on it in the second game for sake of gameplay preferences.

Mass Effect is a game, not lore only. In games gameplay rules supreme, everything else is of no to little concern.

Gameplay is everything.

If you can't feel like an Adept on the toughest difficulty, play an easier one. Your arguments about powers being useless are ridiculous. They have been dismissed a long time ago.

BTW, how do you propose to increase difficulty? The game would be insanely easy without protection - not to mention protection is also around on Casual.

except when the gameplay is ****. nobody ever played a bioware game becasu eof its gameplay. nobody is going to miss christina norman as much as they miss drew krypshananigans or whatever his name is.

what exactly has been dismissed? did i miss an update where throw works on protections???

protection is around on casual, in a very small dosage compared to insanity. if you dont notice the HUGE jump in frequency of enemy protections from veteran to hardcore, then i think your kindof out of the loop.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

that line i bolded is hilarious. really? were not just throwing our powers out there all willy nilly.  theres no right or wrong abilities when it comes to enemy protections. theres only wrong.

Ever heard of games where some enemies are immune to fire attacks? Or frost attacks? Gee, that must be really terrible games if some powers are useless against certain foes.

In ME2 all enemies have health (except Harby, Scions and Preatorians) thus can be attacked with all powers. Sounds a lot better than the fire-frost-etc immunities.

Are you also upset because AI Hacking doesn't work on organics? Or that Singularity was useless (in ME1) against Geth Colossi and Saren? Those powers must suck big-time, eh?

i can assume those enemies are only immune to ice, and they arent immune to EVERYTHING. when you play those games, does it suck when a measly varren type creature can also stop all your wizards magic too? i hope your wizard is good with swords! but wouldnt you want bioware to put as much effort into its game mechanics as those games did with theirs? isnt immunity to ice, but weak againt fire, better then immunity to EVERYTHING? thats basically what we want with ME2s enemy protections versus tech/biotics. those games are better becasue of it, and i think ME2 can reap the same benefits.

you think i want hacking to work on organics? or are you just trying to call me stupid.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 09 août 2011 - 03:43 .

[RedCaesar97]

The Spamming Troll wrote...
in ME2 your playing a game incapable enough to give you a proper challenge. so they added enemy protections and removed our abilities to give us a harder gaemplay.

why dont enemy protections nullify weapons fire, and only allow abilities to work?

Two things:
(1) Enemy protections do not remove abilities, they merely delay when (most) abilities become useful. Some abilities are meant to counter protections (Warp, Reave, Overload, Energy Drain, Incinerate) and are less useful or not useful at all once the protections are removed.

(2) Protections nullify weapons fire as much as they nullify powers. You cannot kill an ememy with weapons or powers as long as the protections are still up. Weapons, like some powers, gain damage bonuses to various defenses.

[Shepard the Leper]

crimzontearz wrote...

1: gameplay is NOT everything especially in a game like ME or else I'd be playing Halo or Crysis 2 over Mass Effect.

Gameplay is what makes games games. Of course it's the most important part, which does not equal everything. ME1 is a good example of a game with poor gameplay mechanics, but the overall presentation made up for it so I still enjoyed the complete experience (although I didn't enjoy the combat).

My point is, games should be fun to play first and foremost. A good story, presentation, sound effects, graphics etc are also important and can make the total gaming experience a lot better. They, however, can never change a poor game into a good one. Thinks of it like watching a movie. There are plenty of movies with a horrible plot / script, but they can still be fun to watch if the special effects are top notch (like most Hollywood material). There are also movies with a very interesting plot, with well-crafted characters, but with ridiculously bad special effects. Both movies are not very good, but can still be enjoyable.

2: I DO NOT play adept I play vanguard but I do understand while people are upset. My arguments, and those of others, were dismissed because other people find it "fun" to play adept ad "required" by insanity. I am fully aware that Christina was talking about the Baseline experience and difficulty but THAT is what the adept is supposed to "feel" like and it does not on insanity.

That's related to difficulty - not to powers or classes an sich. Also, your view of how Adepts are supposed to be (fighting) is your own personal preference. I can understand that, to a certain extent, but I don't understand the issue at hand because you already can play the Adept that way, only not on the hardest difficulty levels.

Difficulty could have been handled better. With defenses granting immunity to some powers but not ALL of them wich makes sense only through the devs giving technomagic explanations with upgrades (shields preventing hacking attempts is ridiculous in my opinion). More responsive or tactical enemies as opposed to skewed damage/health boosts (to make them feel tougher) and the addition of defenses (and thus immunities) to EVERYRHING including feral varren.

Enemy behavior remains the same. Improvements in the AI department are slim and you cannot expect Bioware to design incredible AI behavior just for a few Insanity players. Devs usually give enemies more HP and other bonuses to make them harder to kill and more deadly. Bioware opted to add the protection system (to all enemies) which, with all its imperfections, is much better than the "increase HP" method (ala ME1). Defenses add a (tactical) layer to combat, making it harder to use powers in an optimal way. It ain't perfect, but it's the lesser evil and therefore it has my support (compared to a system without defensive layers).

If you would say that all enemies (including Varren) getting defenses is a bit too much, I agree. Maybe a better mix of different (types of) enemies - including some that can be targeted with all biotic abilities straightaway - might be better. But to drop the protection system altogether is not an option.

[No Snakes Alive]

Where in Mass Effect's lore does it say that an Adept should be able to fling wave after wave of enemy around without any repercussion to the caster himself? Why WOULDN'T it strain the Adept to use his or her powers? Why SHOULDN'T they have to weaken enemies first to lessen the strain on their minds?

How does that common sense notion translate to gameplay? Remove protections then use Throw/Pull. Rather than just have some MK fatality-esque system where enemies' health has to be drained past a certain point before an Adept can bring out the Biotics they came up with this far more fun and challenging rock/scissor/paper protection system.

The current system isn't lore-breaking at all, Adepts CAN toss enemies around with just their powers on Insanity if played right, and once again I must ask, how does turning down the difficulty not eradicate this "problem" you all have with the game? The higher the difficulty the more protections there are - don't like the "arbitrary" nature of protections because you lack the common sense necessary to bridge the gap between gameplay mechanic and lore, then turn down the difficulty and remove protections.

And again I see someone claiming that the Adept isn't what Christina Norman claimed it could be in the class reveal trailer when it absolutely can be that, which is showcased in various videos all over YouTube. Fail. I keep telling people to get better because they keep making bold claims about what the Adept isn't capable of and should be, when in fact the class has been proven to be capable of just that. Off the top of my head I know Average Gatsby showcased what the Adept is capable of on Insanity. Extensively. And there were plenty others whose names escape me. So how can anyone claim the Adept isn't capable of exactly what multiple people have showcased it's capable of? This thread is such fail.

Modifié par No Snakes Alive, 09 août 2011 - 04:47 .

[Shepard the Leper]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i can assume those enemies are only immune to ice, and they arent immune to EVERYTHING. when you play those games, does it suck when a measly varren type creature can also stop all your wizards magic too? i hope your wizard is good with swords! but wouldnt you want bioware to put as much effort into its game mechanics as those games did with theirs? isnt immunity to ice, but weak againt fire, better then immunity to EVERYTHING? thats basically what we want with ME2s enemy protections versus tech/biotics. those games are better becasue of it, and i think ME2 can reap the same benefits.

you think i want hacking to work on organics? or are you just trying to call me stupid.

You are either stupid or you have not played ME2 at all.

There are no enemies immune to biotic powers in ME2. Their protection only temporally shields them from some (biotic) powers. Protection is the first layer to go down, it's also the easiest and quickest layer to remove, after which the rules of the game change and new option become available to the player (which is the case most of the time spent in combat).

You make it sound like there isn't any health around on Insanity, which cannot be further from the truth because enemies have the most health on Insanity (compared to all the other difficulty levels). If you argue something like Pull or Throw sucks on Insanity, then they are utter useless on easier levels (according to your logic).

Furthermore, all biotic powers arc towards their targets. Casting whichever biotic power the moment enemies are in sight, gives you a few moments to either shoot down protection or use squadpowers. That would solve the issue before your biotic projectile has even reached its destination.

Oh, and there are biotic powers that work fine (and/or are specialized) in taking down defenses.

[The Spamming Troll]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...
in ME2 your playing a game incapable enough to give you a proper challenge. so they added enemy protections and removed our abilities to give us a harder gaemplay.

why dont enemy protections nullify weapons fire, and only allow abilities to work?

Two things:
(1) Enemy protections do not remove abilities, they merely delay when (most) abilities become useful. Some abilities are meant to counter protections (Warp, Reave, Overload, Energy Drain, Incinerate) and are less useful or not useful at all once the protections are removed.

(2) Protections nullify weapons fire as much as they nullify powers. You cannot kill an ememy with weapons or powers as long as the protections are still up. Weapons, like some powers, gain damage bonuses to various defenses.

so protections dont remove abilitys(1) but then you think protections do nullify powers(2)?

debuffs work on protections, becasue thats whats in their description. i wish all powers worked that way.

heavy throw staggers an enemy becasue biowoare couldnt make the game challenging enough. abilities sucking in ME2 isnt directly related to having a mod called hardened weave.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 09 août 2011 - 04:55 .

[No Snakes Alive]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i can assume those enemies are only immune to ice, and they arent immune to EVERYTHING. when you play those games, does it suck when a measly varren type creature can also stop all your wizards magic too? i hope your wizard is good with swords! but wouldnt you want bioware to put as much effort into its game mechanics as those games did with theirs? isnt immunity to ice, but weak againt fire, better then immunity to EVERYTHING? thats basically what we want with ME2s enemy protections versus tech/biotics. those games are better becasue of it, and i think ME2 can reap the same benefits.

you think i want hacking to work on organics? or are you just trying to call me stupid.

You are either stupid or you have not played ME2 at all.

There are no enemies immune to biotic powers in ME2. Their protection only temporally shields them from some (biotic) powers. Protection is the first layer to go down, it's also the easiest and quickest layer to remove, after which the rules of the game change and new option become available to the player (which is the case most of the time spent in combat).

You make it sound like there isn't any health around on Insanity, which cannot be further from the truth because enemies have the most health on Insanity (compared to all the other difficulty levels). If you argue something like Pull or Throw sucks on Insanity, then they are utter useless on easier levels (according to your logic).

Furthermore, all biotic powers arc towards their targets. Casting whichever biotic power the moment enemies are in sight, gives you a few moments to either shoot down protection or use squadpowers. That would solve the issue before your biotic projectile has even reached its destination.

Oh, and there are biotic powers that work fine (and/or are specialized) in taking down defenses.

Agreed x 10000. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your posts come off as poor attempts at trolling and your name confirms it? Biotics work absolutely fine on Insanity and having to remove protections before being able to utilize some of them (just like with Tech powers) just makes sense no matter which way you look at it, gameplay Nd lore-wise. And if you disagree, yet again, I've still to hear why you can't just turn the difficulty down and move on with your life.

[The Spamming Troll]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i can assume those enemies are only immune to ice, and they arent immune to EVERYTHING. when you play those games, does it suck when a measly varren type creature can also stop all your wizards magic too? i hope your wizard is good with swords! but wouldnt you want bioware to put as much effort into its game mechanics as those games did with theirs? isnt immunity to ice, but weak againt fire, better then immunity to EVERYTHING? thats basically what we want with ME2s enemy protections versus tech/biotics. those games are better becasue of it, and i think ME2 can reap the same benefits.

you think i want hacking to work on organics? or are you just trying to call me stupid.

You are either stupid or you have not played ME2 at all.

There are no enemies immune to biotic powers in ME2. Their protection only temporally shields them from some (biotic) powers. Protection is the first layer to go down, it's also the easiest and quickest layer to remove, after which the rules of the game change and new option become available to the player (which is the case most of the time spent in combat).

You make it sound like there isn't any health around on Insanity, which cannot be further from the truth because enemies have the most health on Insanity (compared to all the other difficulty levels). If you argue something like Pull or Throw sucks on Insanity, then they are utter useless on easier levels (according to your logic).

Furthermore, all biotic powers arc towards their targets. Casting whichever biotic power the moment enemies are in sight, gives you a few moments to either shoot down protection or use squadpowers. That would solve the issue before your biotic projectile has even reached its destination.

Oh, and there are biotic powers that work fine (and/or are specialized) in taking down defenses.

if protections are 50/50, im still playing the game as half an adept.

throw isnt useless on an enemy with only health, thats what im saying. difficulty levels have nothing to do with it. having barrier, armor, and shields do. i dont care if its casual or insanity, i dont care if protections are on varren or not, i just want them to be implemented with more apreciaition to the caster classes.

the biotic projectile hits the enemy much faster then i could ever take down their shields or whipe out a another enemy while throw is cruising towards them. you simply dont have a few moments to do what you suggest. even slow moving singularity wouldnt allow for that. i rarely have enough time to scope one enemy in and target another on insanity as it is. ME3s projectiles look to move even faster too.

warp bombs are awesome, so is OP-stasis. becasue they do as advertised.

[The Spamming Troll]

No Snakes Alive wrote...

Agreed x 10000. How can you expect to be taken seriously when your posts come off as poor attempts at trolling and your name confirms it? Biotics work absolutely fine on Insanity and having to remove protections before being able to utilize some of them (just like with Tech powers) just makes sense no matter which way you look at it, gameplay Nd lore-wise. And if you disagree, yet again, I've still to hear why you can't just turn the difficulty down and move on with your life.

im trolling? somone please tell me if im doing something differently then anyone else here.

i just wanted to bold something for other people to get a chuckle at.

[dreman9999]

SirBlakhawk wrote...

It's not about it being to hard and it's not about tweaking 1 ability (not just throw but pull and other abilities that are BLOCKED by the game). It's about when the game actually doesn't allow you to use a certain power when you clearly should still be able to just to a weaker extent. It's about the game making sense. I don't care if playing is hard or easy, there is a way around all those defenses yes, and they're easily exploited. I don't want throw/pull to have same effects as warp, I would prefer if the effect wasn't that great, but that biotic abilities shouldn't be just plain blocked from the game if you are a strong enough biotic where defenses aren't as big as an effect as they are when your biotics are weaker. Like the charge for a Vanguard does make sense. You can charge into armored enemies just not have the same destructive effect on weaker enemies unless you have heavy charge (and taken away part of their armor). You could even shockwave them and it would barely have an effect. I'm asking the same idea for pull/throw where you can't throw them or pull them unless you evolved the power to a level that you can but to a lesser effect as it would have on weaker enemies. That's it.

http://masseffect.wi...Shock_Absorbers